A plea for better notetaking within L4

First, let me say that the more I use L4, the more genuinely impressed I am with it. This is by far the greatest piece of Bible Study software to ever hit the market. That being said, I do want to state my opinion that the one major lack for a lot of L4 users is notes. I know this issue has been addressed in the past but it seems to me that one of the reasons that Logos hosts these forums is to get feedback from its users.

Logos offers Bible students access to some of the best resources on the planet. A wealth of knowledge can be accessed by it and the assistance we receive by using L4 is invaluable to many of us. However, one resource that I think Logos has overlooked is the resource that I the user create as a result of my hours of study with L4. My note files respresent hours of my time, the synthesis of my research, the fruit of my stuy labor and as such, these files are very important to me. Why would the best Bibly study software on the planet not offer the best note-taking system in the world? Who needs to be better equiped to keep notes and keep them organized than students of the Word of God?

We can use products like OneNote or EverNote but these products are not incorporated with our other resources in L4. They are not searchable from within L4. So, they are less desirable to many of us than a good note taking system within L4.

We would like the ability within L4 to organize and reorganize our notes, to add styles such as bold, italic . . .etc, to add tables, charts, graphics that help us emphasize our points, and to have a great way to organize the files, link the files to resources and resources to the files, and retrieve and search the files.

To show that I'm not alone in this, I am attaching a link to a thread where this topic is currently being discussed. That link is http://community.logos.com/forums/t/5503.aspx?PageIndex=1. There are many other links where notes are being discussed as well. Please consider this plea. Please give us the ability to treat our own resources as though they are as valuable as the other resources we use. Thank you.

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Comments

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90179#Comment_90179

I also feel that the notes aspect of L3/L4 is nearly as important as the search function that it is so superlative at performing. In fact, I am currently writing a book and I am essentially composing a great deal of it using the notes function of L3. I have been a detractor of L4 generally because, of the 10-20 things that are most important to the way I use L3, almost none of them translated to L4. Sure, L4 is flashy, and powerful...some of its whiz-bang tech is impressive...but for me, I rarely open L4...because every time I do I'm reminded of what it isn't, and I get depressed. I want to love L4...but it just isn't happening. Some of that has to do with this topic of notes...and the concept some have brought up of "authoring". I'm not sure if their concept of authoring is the same thing I have in mind, but it's probably close enough.

At the Camp Logos in Tennessee back in early December, I showed Bob how I use notes...as in the example below:

Granted, this section of scripture is what my book is about, so it is a bit more "lit up" than most other sections of my Bible, but this illustrates somewhat what the potential of notes can, could, and should be. What I can't capture and show are the pop-ups that show up when the cursor hovers over the note icon. In L3, some of my notes run 20 pages or longer. When the pop-up window pops up it covers the whole right side of the screen, but anything that goes past that pop-up window is relegated to "ethereal nowhere land". What I wanted to have was a "pin" feature that would allow the note to remain on the screen with a scrolling feature so that I could then access the entire note through the pop-up. The reason and the point? PRESENTATION!!!!

This aspect is the part of Logos software's potential that seems to escape Bob. To do what I want to do, he would have me port everything into PowerPoint and gussy it up there. WHY? Logos software, as Morris Proctor is so apt to point out, is a phenomenal jaw-dropping program. We see what it is capable of and say, "WOW!" But we then have to take all of our "input"--particularly our Notes--and port over to a scrawny piece of junk like PowerPoint?? That's nuts. Logos should have a powerhouse of presentation tools built right into the interface, particularly the Notes interface. When I take notes, I do it with PRESENTATION in mind--I want the power and beauty and power and power and beauty of this spectacular program to have its awe-inspiring effect on the people I present to. To be frank, it is the worst marketing flub I can imagine for Logos to take its amazingly bright candle and then (due to a lack of perception of what can and should be its best and most powerful marketing angle--simply showing people "what it is capable of doing") hide all that power under a basket. This forces those who use the program to "abandon ship" to accomplish our presentation in the dinghy we know as PowerPoint. But in this case, the luxury liner hasn't hit an iceberg; instead the captain has scuttled the ship.

Case in point: I have notes in L3 that I can bring up as a pop-up when doing Bible studies which have tremendous detail, including Hebrew and Greek. I can teach for 5 minutes off of a single pop-up...just as long as I don't move the cursor on the screen. Like I said, some of my notes fill the right side of the screen from top to bottom. I copied some of my notes from L3 to L4 when I was at the Camp Logos and was flabbergasted to find that the note was only two inches square. I took my laptop to Bob and asked what was up, and he said that was by DESIGN. Some people had apparently complained because pop-ups for notes (and in some cases the Strong's citations) would pop-up and fill the whole screen, which of course meant they couldn't read the underlying text. Just then a guy who seemed to be an employee came up and said, "Yeah, it fills the screen and you can't read what's underneath."

I couldn't believe what I was hearing. It's kind of like saying that because sometimes when a car is parked on a hill, if the car isn't left in gear and the parking brake isn't engaged, the car can roll down the hill and cause a big problem...so we solved the problem by putting square tires on the car and now the threat of rolling downhill is removed! Um...that's not a solution...it's a functional disaster! Not only are the notes in L4 only two inches square, but to make sure an offending pop-up doesn't continue to offend, pop-ups are programmed to only stay up for a couple of seconds. I was made painfully and uncomfortably aware of this design Edsel when I encountered a built-in informational pop-up which came up as a footnote. I literally had to move the cursor off the footnote and then back over the footnote to get it to show up more than a dozen times in order to read to whole footnote. That is just silly absurd. And why this?? Because some yahoo was bothered by a pop-up covering the screen. I have a bit of advice for the folks bugged by this "non-problem". MOVE THE CURSOR.

I have simply gotten in the habit of moving the cursor to the margin to avoid pop-ups...and I do it almost unconsciously. You know why? Because I really LIKE HAVING ROUND TIRES! Having pop-ups that are not only as big as the screen but which stay put is a HUGE ASSET to the Logos program. Or I should say WAS a huge asset to the Logos program. As I suggested earlier, I also would like to see a scrolling feature for the notes I create. This is already possible because I often come across notes and footnotes in my library that require scrolling. Why is this function available for "in-house" notes but not made available to the unwashed masses? To work around this problem in L3, I have to add a second or third note for each additional page of notes (as is the case for the three notes attached to v. 24). But for the notes I have that are 10-20 pages long (and they are that long for a reason with plenty of pertinent info), that would require having 10-20 note icons in the middle of the text, which is both unwieldy and ridiculous.

Basically Bob told me that what I want just isn't going to happen. Maybe that will change--if my hometown team the Saints can win the Superbowl, I suppose nearly anything is possible. But we will probably have to riot to get it on the drawing board. I know that I OFTEN have people ask me about the Bible program I use because I teach from the program. It draws people in. It is amazing stuff...but right now, even in L3, which has more current presentation potential than L4 does, I have to fight the program to get it do what it should be designed to do. Logos should be BIBLE PRESENTATION SOFTWARE with search and study capabilities. The WHIZ-BANG EFFECT that the software has in its little pinky is known only to us highbrows who use the program. The power the program possesses should have the functionality that would make Logos know by name in every church in the nation, not to mention overseas. But at present sadly, it does the grunt work and then consigns itself to anonymity by giving a much lesser program like PowerPoint the glory of presenting the fruit of Logos's labor. What a shame. That is a mistake in my book...and the choice to limit the note-taking features of L4 is a similar backwards step. I hear a chorus of voices saying Notes is their lifeblood. It is true for me. I hope Bob will see this.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90722#Comment_90722

I also feel that the notes aspect of L3/L4 is nearly as important as the search function

Well presented examples. I agree with the need of pop-ups to show "all" of the note. For me, it's a matter of showing the entire graphic organizer, tree diagram, comparison chart ...

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90748#Comment_90748

Wait...what is this I am reading??!! MJ...are you really "agreeing" with something I have posted? Can this be true?? Perhaps I should run outside and see if Jupiter has aligned with Mars! Have we returned to the Age of Aquarius?!?!?!

Who says miracles don't happen!!! [<:o)] [;)] [<:o)]

Stein Dahl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90467#Comment_90467

I would be happy if they could embed the word processor that comes with our OS into v4.

Tom. That's a fantastic idea! It's already there by default included in the OS. For me on Windows XP and Win7 that would be Word Pad. I'm not sure what it is on a Mac.

But it would be awesome if Logos could integrate usage of it in Logos 4 and include linking and all the other features that people have been asking for.

This would give us what we've been asking for - a more robust note taking system - and wouldn't require Logos to "reinvent the wheel" creating a special word processor.

This is the best idea I've heard so far. Logos are you listening?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90758#Comment_90758

MJ...are you really "agreeing" with something I have posted?

I apologize. I take it all back. I don't want to be responsible for any health consequences of the shock![:$]

Stein Dahl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90722#Comment_90722

Basically Bob told me that what I want just isn't going to happen. Maybe that will change--if my hometown team the Saints can win the Superbowl, I suppose nearly anything is possible. But we will probably have to riot to get it on the drawing board. I know that I OFTEN have people ask me about the Bible program I use because I teach from the program. It draws people in. It is amazing stuff...but right now, even in L3, which has more current presentation potential than L4 does, I have to fight the program to get it do what it should be designed to do. Logos should be BIBLE PRESENTATION SOFTWARE with search and study capabilities. The WHIZ-BANG EFFECT that the software has in its little pinky is known only to us highbrows who use the program. The power the program possesses should have the functionality that would make Logos know by name in every church in the nation, not to mention overseas. But at present sadly, it does the grunt work and then consigns itself to anonymity by giving a much lesser program like PowerPoint the glory of presenting the fruit of Logos's labor. What a shame. That is a mistake in my book...and the choice to limit the note-taking features of L4 is a similar backwards step. I hear a chorus of voices saying Notes is their lifeblood. It is true for me. I hope Bob will see this.

David, I only quoted your last paragraph, but I agree with your entire post. I also use notes extensively (did in L3 and even in The WORD) and actually would like to KEEP all of the Bible research I collect and store in my notes - INSIDE of Logos 4.

What part of this doesn't Logos understand? So many Logos CUSTOMERS - (Are you listening Logos?) - are asking - no, PLEADING for this feature.

If Logos isn't going to develope a more robust note taking system, then at least use the default word processor that comes natively with our OS (as Tom Collinge suggested in another post here).

Make Logos 4 USE that default word processor and even integrate usage of it into Logos 4 - customizing it so that links work and searching works - and all the features people want work with it.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90772#Comment_90772

actually would like to KEEP all of the Bible research I collect and store in my notes - INSIDE of Logos 4.

I agree wholeheartedly. With the Search capabilities and the Favorites to keep links, Logos is well-situated to become the repository of all one's Bible study documents.This doesn't mean that Logos must be the creator of all the documents - it means being able to link and index documents within Logos ... the reason I frequently copy diagrams into notes. Simple charts, chiasms, templates for form structures ... Logos is so close

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90772#Comment_90772

Basically Bob told me that what I want just isn't going to happen. Maybe that will change--if my hometown team the Saints can win the Superbowl, I suppose nearly anything is possible. But we will probably have to riot to get it on the drawing board. I know that I OFTEN have people ask me about the Bible program I use because I teach from the program. It draws people in. It is amazing stuff...but right now, even in L3, which has more current presentation potential than L4 does, I have to fight the program to get it do what it should be designed to do. Logos should be BIBLE PRESENTATION SOFTWARE with search and study capabilities. The WHIZ-BANG EFFECT that the software has in its little pinky is known only to us highbrows who use the program. The power the program possesses should have the functionality that would make Logos know by name in every church in the nation, not to mention overseas. But at present sadly, it does the grunt work and then consigns itself to anonymity by giving a much lesser program like PowerPoint the glory of presenting the fruit of Logos's labor. What a shame. That is a mistake in my book...and the choice to limit the note-taking features of L4 is a similar backwards step. I hear a chorus of voices saying Notes is their lifeblood. It is true for me. I hope Bob will see this.

David, I only quoted your last paragraph, but I agree with your entire post.

In the immortal words of Sally Field: "YOU LIKE ME...YOU REALLY, REALLY LIKE ME!!!"

Gotta love a flying nun! [:P]

Nathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90648#Comment_90648

missing cut/copy/paste of old note taking.

Yes, and no way to print, or drag/drop into handouts...can't do anything with notes except view them. Interesting idea here: How about moving them into a floating window that you can drag onto a projection for presentation. If we add a simple RTF type editor with say a drag/drop type of button which we can drag and drop into one of our resources in L4 thus creating a link(s) save/sync this file as commentary or whatever we have all the missing features NOW. No more coding required for the current note system.

wonder if the authoring / sharing you are speaking of, and describe in your second post is very possible technically just not possible practically. Lets say you do all this work, put all your thoughts with lots of notes and quotes from many sources, and then you share it with me (this of course seems unlikely at the moment, but people get past things). Now I have access to a lot of material in a searchable form which I have not bought from logos. In fact, what is to keep someone from copying a whole chapter of a book, or 2 or 3 and sharing it, with a few of their own thoughts of course, but basically I have a their whole resource?

Ok, valid points here are a couple of thoughts.

Every time you copy/paste from a resource its source is automatically appended (is that in L3? I know it is in other products), and maybe in the footnotes (or wherever) a link is available for users to Purchase that resource if it is not already in their library. (Revenue)

What is preventing us from copy/paste the entire NASB into a doc and calling it the "Nathan Bible" now?

there is a lot more off topic in your first post than your second.

Yes I know, thats why I prefaced my comments saying the post was for the Management (Bob? I guess not sure) because when I called Logos I got a "new girl" and was not sure she would let management know why I was returning the product and I thought this would be the most appropriate place as it is my greatest concern with L4. I fully expect to be back with my dollars at a future date...hope so.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90775#Comment_90775

actually would like to KEEP all of the Bible research I collect and store in my notes - INSIDE of Logos 4.

I agree wholeheartedly. With the Search capabilities and the Favorites to keep links, Logos is well-situated to become the repository of all one's Bible study documents.This doesn't mean that Logos must be the creator of all the documents - it means being able to link and index documents within Logos ... the reason I frequently copy diagrams into notes. Simple charts, chiasms, templates for form structures ... Logos is so close

My one greatest and only huge reason not to use Logos as my dedicated notes repository is there is NO guarantee all my notes from L4 and therefore all my Bible study work would be viable with the next version of Logos. I will never forget the early days of beta testing L4 when notes from version 3 were not yet going to be imported to L4 that one gentleman literally begged to have them imported into version 4. (Hey, I was surprised that they weren't since notes from earlier versions of Logos made it into versions 2 and 3--I just assumed noters from 3 would easily move to 4.) I would LOVE to use L4 as my main Bible software program but I cannot. And, yes, there were very good reasons why Logos chose the early course they did and thankfully they listened to users. But...

josh s blake

Again, just today...notes....AAAAAARRRRRRGGGG! Please make them usable. I'm sure my complaint isn't new, but the frustration in using Logos 4 with such poor notes got to me today. Thank you for letting me vent. Someone here will understand. My wife and one-year-old do not.

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/103008#Comment_103008

I use notes for some personal bible study, I just like to see my highlight and comments and questions as I read, and then review scripture - takes the place of that rebound leather copy.

All my other notes have been in onenote, but it started to do weird things when syncing, creating multiple copies of pages (using windows live sync), so I moved all my notes to evernote because it is so like L4 - on the computer and in the cloud, syncs, but can work offline. If these software companies have similar programming philosophies, and are both independent and smaller (than say ms or google), and evernote has opened their program so people can write apps.... I see opportunity here, wish I was a programmer.

Anyway, I feel your pain, wish it was all together in one place.

Christian Girl

We for sure need better note-taking that allows us to perform our work faster! I don't even bother with the Logos note taker but instead use Word. That says something. And I know others do the same. [Y]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389591#Comment_389591

Bob mentioned months back that there were changes coming to notes that might fulfill some of the expections I mentioned in my previous post on this thread (and in others). But my main sticking point remains and I am not aware of any work around that would get me to forsake L3 for L4. I am a big L3 fan. I readily admit that L4 has certain features and benefits that L3 lacks...but none of those features meets my usage pattern needs in the way L3 does. Most of these issues are Notes related, though some are not. I genuinely hope that L5 will be a blend of the two programs. I'm not ready to do it now, but in the future I will post features in both programs that are critical to the way I use Logos. Hopefully, most of those things will turn up in L5.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389770#Comment_389770

Bob mentioned months back that there were changes coming to notes that might fulfill some of the expections I mentioned in my previous post on this thread (and in others). But my main sticking point remains and I am not aware of any work around that would get me to forsake L3 for L4. I am a big L3 fan. I readily admit that L4 has certain features and benefits that L3 lacks...but none of those features meets my usage pattern needs in the way L3 does. Most of these issues are Notes related, though some are not. I genuinely hope that L5 will be a blend of the two programs. I'm not ready to do it now, but in the future I will post features in both programs that are critical to the way I use Logos. Hopefully, most of those things will turn up in L5.

Perhaps you could detail the deficiencies you find in L4 over against L3 as regards notes. I'm a big fan of the notes function and would like to see them as robust as possible, but I think notes in L4 already surpass those in L3. What I desire is yet further improvements such as the ability to footnote in notes. What's on your list?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389771#Comment_389771

What's on your list?

My outstanding sticking point is the ability to attach a note to multiple passages. I still NEED chart and image capability but I understand why it won't be given priority.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389777#Comment_389777

image capability

and tables and tags and more formatting of the text.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389793#Comment_389793

image capability
and tables and tags and more formatting of the text.

Construct them in Word then paste them into notes.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389807#Comment_389807

Construct them in Word then paste them into notes.

Some times it works when I paste a table into a note, and sometimes it doesn't.

I sill use L3 for all of my notes, and then import them into L4.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389815#Comment_389815

Every now and then when someone says L4 notes are much improved, I dutifully make a note (literally) just to see the what's changed. Then delete the note file when done. I'm impressed deleting all my notes is so easy and convenient too.

I think L4/L5 will always be an interesting programming museum piece until they recode.