Is there any good book(s) someone could recommend that deal with the early church fathers teachings of the last days?
Ultimate Things: An Orthodox Christian Perspective on the End Times by D E Engleman and T Hopko is the only thing that comes to mind.
Darn, nothing in logos?
The early early church fathers were post-tribulational premillennial. That position hasn't been real popular because it hasn't been pushed like dispensationalism or amillennialism and because who wants to go through a tribulation anyway. Therefore there isn't too much writing on it. Those who do usually have their own ax to grind and misrepresent the fathers to promote their view. Good luck.
Any idea on good search strings for logos that I can use to show their post trib, premill positions? I have been searching through the fathers but not coming up with much..
from a site I have no reason to trust. Note that it names names for amillenial but not for premillenial. Bolding of text (not headings) is mine.
MILLENNIAL VIEWS
Amillennialism
This view is usually traced back to Augustine (354-430 AD); however, Origen (185-254 AD) from Alexandria, Egypt, who was greatly influenced by Greek philosophy, taught that the kingdom was not physical but spiritual. It is interesting to note that all the other early church fathers were premillennial. A basic teaching of amillennialism is that the kingdom began with Christ's first coming and will continue until His Second Coming. They teach that there is no 1000-year kingdom on earth. They use an allegorical system of interpretation of prophetic events. The Olivet Discourse and the greater part of the book of Revelation are largely viewed as past historical events or are spiritualized out of existence. They do believe in a Second Coming of Christ for His own, which takes place at the end which is immediately followed by the judgment of the wicked and the eternal state. They believe that conditions in this world will continue to deteriorate up until the time of the coming of Christ.
Download a PDF file of Parousia #19 for an in-depth look at the "Origens" of Amillennialism.
Postmillennialism
This view found its beginnings in England and was first taught by Unitarian minister Daniel Whitby (1638-1726). This view basically teaches that the return of Christ takes place at the end of the millennium. They do not take the 1000 years in Revelation 20 literally but suggest it is speaking of a long period of time. Loraine Boettner, a postmillennialist, in his book "The Millennium" states, "The millennium to which the postmillennialist looks forward is thus a golden age of spiritual prosperity during this present dispensation, that is, the Church Age. This is to be brought about through forces now active in the world. . . . The changed character of individuals will be reflected in an uplifted social, economic, political and cultural life of mankind. The world at large will enjoy a state of righteousness which up until now has been seen only in relatively small and isolated groups: for example, some family circles, and some local church groups and kindred organizations. This does not mean there will be a time on earth when every person will be a Christian or that all sin will be abolished. But it does mean that evil in all its many forms eventually will be reduced to negligible proportions, that Christian principles will be the rule, not the exception, and that Christ will return to a truly Christianized world." There is a new form of postmillennialism known as "Reconstuctionism" which teaches how the world will eventually be Christianized. David Chilton writes in his book, "Paradise Restored", "Our goal is world dominion under Christ's Lordship, a world takeover if you will; but our strategy begins with reformation, reconstruction of the church. From that will flow social and political reconstruction, indeed a flowering of Christian civilization." There are other similar forms of postmillennialism such as "Dominion Theology" and "Kingdom Now Theology."
Premillennialism
This view is the view of the early church fathers which takes a literal approach to the Scriptures. It teaches that after the seventieth week of Daniel is completed, Christ will establish His kingdom here on earth and reign for 1000 years. The primary subjects of this kingdom will be the surviving remnant of Israel that will eventually turn to Christ as their true Messiah and King just after the completion of the seventieth week. There will also be a remnant from among the surviving Gentile nations, especially from Egypt and Assyria, none of which will have taken the mark or worshiped the beast or his image. Premillennialists have various views on the timing of the Rapture, but they all place that momentous event before the 1000-year reign of Christ and His kingdom.
It's kind of late where I live to come up with a search string. Here is a paper from Jets on the subject.
www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/29/29-2/29-2-pp163-177_JETS.pdf
It's interesting you should ask. This morning TKBlack (I hope I got that right) recommended a book coming out on spiritual warfare. I've been buried in the apostolic fathers so I did a quick query.
My curiousity was whether Ignatius, as he bounced his way over the west Asian roads, felt on-board with Polycarp, as he wrote to Smyrna. When you read his end-time and mean-time logic, I can easily imagine Polycarp kind of swallowing hard and sending the epistle copies on their respective ways.
Barnabas, on the other hand, was counting the 'days' and argued that Jesus came in the flesh because elsewise no one could look at him (I thought that was a great point). But it's interesting to watch which 'day' they think they're on. Some appear to be on day 5 and others on day 6.
Sure, try Revelation or 1 Jn 2.18
18 Children, it is the last hour! As you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. From this we know that it is the last hour.
This morning TKBlack (I hope I got that right) recommended a book coming out on spiritual warfare.
Try doing a basic search for "Historic premillennial*"
This Generated 41 articles in 19 resources in my library. My understanding is that Historic Premillenialism is significantly different than Dispensational Premillenialism and would be more consistent with Early Church.
Bruce, I would suggest the Ancient Christian Commentary on the Scripture, edited by Thomas Oden. It will give you many church fathers'
interpretation of almost any passage.
I agree with Jerry that most of the church fathers were historic (non-dispensational) premilllenial in their theology, but there were several exceptions. Actually, I have the same view (surprise!).
(I am not sure why the odd spacing on this post.)
Try doing a basic search for "Historic premillennial*" This Generated 41 articles in 19 resources in my library. My understanding is that Historic Premillenialism is significantly different than Dispensational Premillenialism and would be more consistent with Early Church.
This is true. One of the reasons given for the failure of Papias' writings to be preserved is that (it is said) that he was a "chiliast" which meant that he subscribed to a view that held there would be a literal 1000 year reign on earth with earthly pleasures (72 virgins?).
from a site I have no reason to trust.
The descriptions from site (posted here) as well as the magazine article you point us to do not fairly represent the amillenial view.
But please let's not have a discussion on the millenium. I wish this book were available in Logos, but I've not been able to find it.
I have no recommendations regarding the early church's views on eschatology. But I do have an observation: the early church was not a monolith. There were many views on many matters, that often conflicted with each other. I would be surprised if there were a single view on eschatology, the millenium, or anything else. But I've not studied this topic, so I don't know that this area of theology might be an exception.
Also, being Reformed by heritage, eschatology is about the last thing we talk about. [cough, cough] [;)]
Premillennialism This view is the view of the early church fathers which takes a literal approach to the Scriptures.
This view is the view of the early church fathers which takes a literal approach to the Scriptures.
Have you stopped beating your wife? That seems about equivalent to this statement which obviously is prejudiced. It would seem that Papias was not held in high regard (and therefore his works not preserved) precisely because he held what was called a chiliast view, i.e., that there would be a 1000 yr reign on the earth.
I'd assume Papias' problem was Eusebius didn't like him. And given the century(s) between the two, I'd assume someone did like Papias.
Personally I like him. At our church, not a few read our pastor's written sermon. But I advice them that chatting with someone that's chatted with the pastor is far better. It's the 'second-hand' and 'third-hand' that really puts the icing on the cake. For the life of me, I can't imagine why, but Papias could.
I'd assume Papias' problem was Eusebius didn't like him. And given the century(s) between the two, I'd assume someone did like Papias. Personally I like him. At our church, not a few read our pastor's written sermon. But I advice them that chatting with someone that's chatted with the pastor is far better. It's the 'second-hand' and 'third-hand' that really puts the icing on the cake. For the life of me, I can't imagine why, but Papias could.
In what little we have from Papias <[[Page 556 >> logosres:apfthhlmeng;ref=Page.p_556]]>, it would seem that he was often wrong.
The fact that Eusebius may not have like Papias doesn't account for the fact that his writings have scarcely been preserved. There must have been many who didn't much like Papias or someone would have preserved his work.
J. N. D. Kelly's Early Christian Doctrines (alas, not yet in Logos) also includes a good overview.
J. N. D. Kelly's Early Christian Doctrines (alas, not yet in Logos) also includes a good overview. /my bold/
Not for my lack of trying.[:D] I've been pushing it for two years: Suggestion: Introductory books on Patristics. Go vote for it, folks!
Not in logos, but the best overview I've read:
Daley, Brian E. The Hope of the Early Church: A Handbook of PatristicEschatology. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1991.
Also the classic article by Hans Bietenhard, “The Millennial Hope in the Early Church,” Scottish Journal of Theology6/1 (March 1953): 12-30.
Email me if you would like a copy of it (johnpatrickharrigan_at_gmail.c0m)
Any idea on good search strings for logos that I can use to show their post trib, premill positions?
Create a collection of just the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I and Volume V. Then select that collection in a Basic search. Choose Surface Text (If you don't want hits on footnotes) and then use this search string. The string needs refinement, but will get you started.
millennium OR antichrist OR kingdom NEAR beast OR "man of apostacy" OR advent OR coming NEAR judge OR tribulation NEAR saints OR consummation OR come NEAR deceive
I found this book review in Themelios 19:3 -
Regnum Caelorum: Patterns of Future Hope in Early ChristianityCharles E. HillOxford, 1992, 236 pp.
In spite of the vast range of literature dealing with the Early Church period, there are still a number of important subjects which have received only the most cursory and disjointed treatment in the past. The question of eschatology is a case in point, and this book, which began life as a doctoral thesis at Oxford, fills an important gap in our knowledge of the period.
It has long been recognized, of course, that mainstream Christian opinion in the earliest centuries of the church was chiliastic in its eschatology, taking literally the millennial reign of Christ mentioned in Revelation 20. It is also well known that this view was superseded and eventually virtually discredited by Augustine, who developed an articulate non-chiliastic view of the Christian future.
What is much less understood is the way in which this primitive chiliasm emerged and why its eventual demise should have been so complete. In this thesis, the author sets out to prove that Christian writers owed a major part of their inspiration to Jewish contemporaries, who in turn were motivated by the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. Tied up with their crisis eschatology was the belief that the souls of the departed spent the intervening period in a kind of limbo, and that they did not enjoy the fruits of Christ’s resurrection victory until the Day of Judgment. It is the author’s contention that this view is closely bound up with any form of chiliasm, which would virtually cease to exist without it.
He also points out that in spite of the widespread acceptance of chiliasm in the early church, there was always an alternative to this eschatology within the orthodox fold. This alternative focused on the fact that the Bible promises believers an immediate enjoyment of paradise, something which, in the case of the martyrs at least, popular Christian devotion would not surrender. The author demonstrates that this created a logical contradiction which contributed to the eventual overthrow of traditional chiliasm. If a believer enjoys the fruits of paradise immediately after death, there is very little point in picturing a thousand-year reign of the saints on earth, particularly as this was by definition a temporal, and not an eternal, state of bliss.
The thesis contains much detailed argument of different scholarly positions, and it is only to be expected that the views put forward here will provoke similar replies in due course. Nevertheless, the author has raised the profile of a much-neglected subject, and provided a study which will stimulate and inform all students of the period. In particular, there is an interesting chapter dealing with the relationship between the book of Revelation and chiliasm, which will be of much wider interest than the rest, not least because of the links which it makes with present-day American millenarianism.
Gerald Bray, Beeson Divinity School, Birmingham, Alabama.
Gerald Bray, "Review of Regnum Caelorum: Patterns of Future Hope in Early Christianity by Charles E. Hill" In , in Themelios: Volume 19, No. 3, May 1994 (United Kingdom: The Gospel Coalition, 1994), 26.
Locations in the Ante-Nicene Fathers for the Historic Premillennial Position. (I highlighted the principle sentences so that I could find them later by arrowing down by annotation.)
Volume I
logosres:anf01;ref=Page.p_147;off=-313
logosres:anf01;ref=Page.p_154;off=4067
logosres:anf01;ref=Page.p_253;off=4668
logosres:anf01;ref=Page.p_553;off=1433
logosres:anf01;ref=Page.p_554;off=268
logosres:anf01;ref=Page.p_555;off=150
Volume V
logosres:anf05;ref=Page.p_179;off=3797
logosres:anf05;ref=Page.p_246;off=1096
logosres:anf05;ref=Page.p_247;off=2031
logosres:anf05;ref=Page.p_249;off=4758
logosres:anf05;ref=Page.p_250;off=4692
logosres:anf05;ref=Page.p_251;off=1900
Bruce, I would suggest the Ancient Christian Commentary on the Scripture, edited by Thomas Oden.
can anyone share what a.c.c has on the rapture scriptures?
1st Thes 4.17To Meet the Lord in the AirAS WITH CHRIST, SO FOR US. GREGORY OF NYSSA: For that which has taken place in Christ’s humanity is a common blessing on humanity generally. For we see in him the weight of the body, which naturally gravitates to earth, ascending through the air into the heavens. Therefore, we believe according to the words of the apostle, that we also “shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Even so, when we hear that the true God and Father has become the God and Father of Christ, precisely as the firstfruits of the general resurrection, we no longer doubt that the same God has become our God and Father too. This is true inasmuch as we have learned that we shall come to the same place where Christ has entered for us as our forerunner. AGAINST EUNOMIUS 12.1.CAUGHT UP IN THE CLOUDS. RUFINUS OF AQUILEIA: That the righteous shall ever abide with Christ our Lord, we have already demonstrated. This is where we have shown that the apostle says, “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” And do not marvel that the flesh of the saints is to be changed into such a glorious condition at the resurrection as to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air. Indeed, the same apostle, setting forth the great things which God bestows on them that love him, says, “Who shall change our vile body that it may be made like his glorious body.” It is in no way absurd, then, if the bodies of the saints are said to be raised up in the air, seeing that they are said to be renewed after the image of Christ’s body, which is seated at God’s right hand. A COMMENTARY ON THE APOSTLES’ CREED 46.THE LIVING AND THE DEAD. EPHREM THE SYRIAN: This Jesus that gathered and carried and brought with him of the fruit was longing for the Tree of Life to taste the fruit that quickens all. For him Rahab too was looking. For when the scarlet thread in type redeemed her from wrath, in type she tasted of the Truth. For him Elijah longed, and when he did not see him on earth, he, thoroughly cleansed through faith, mounted up to heaven to see him. Moses saw him and Elijah.50 The meek man from the depth ascended, the zealous from on high descended, and in the midst beheld the Son. They figured the mystery of his advent: Moses was a type of the dead, and Elijah a type of the living, that fly to meet him at his coming. For the dead that have tasted death, them he makes to be first: and the rest that are not buried, are at last caught up to meet him. HYMNS ON THE NATIVITY 1.THE VENERABLE BEDE: By Moses and Elijah [at the transfiguration] we can rightly understand everyone who is going to reign with the Lord. By Moses, who died and was buried, [we can understand] those who at the judgment are going to be raised up from death. By Elijah, on the other hand, who has not yet paid the debt of death, [we can understand] those who are going to be found alive in the flesh at the Judge’s coming. At one and the same moment, both of them, having been caught up “in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,” will be led into eternal life, as soon as the judgment is brought to completion. HOMILIES ON THE GOSPELS 1.24.THE GREAT RECEPTION. CHRYSOSTOM: If he is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children indeed, and those who are worthy to be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see and kiss him; but the housekeepers who have offended him remain within. We are carried upon the chariot of our Father. For he received him up in the clouds, and “we shall be caught up in the clouds.” Do you see how great is the honor? And as he descends, we go forth to meet him, and, what is more blessed than all, so shall we be with him. HOMILIES ON 1 THESSALONIANS 8.TRUE LIFE. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM: Now the life that is really and truly life is God the Father, the fount of life, who pours out his heavenly gifts upon all his creatures through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, and the blessings of eternal life are faithfully promised even to us men, through his love for us. There must be no incredulity about the possibility of that. For we ought to believe, because our minds should be set on his power, not on our feebleness. For anything is possible with God, and that our eternal life is both possible and to be looked forward to by us is shown when Daniel says, “the understanding … from among the many righteous shall shine as the stars for ever and ever.” And Paul says, “And so shall we be ever with the Lord.” For “being ever with the Lord” means the same thing as eternal life. CATECHETICAL LECTURES 18.29.THE FINAL VISION. PSEUDO-DIONYSIUS: In a fashion beyond words, the simplicity of Jesus became something complex, the timeless took on the duration of the temporal, and, with neither change nor confusion of what constitutes him, he came into our human nature, he who totally transcends the natural order of the world…. And so it is that the Transcendent is clothed in the terms of being, with shape and form on things which have neither, and numerous symbols are employed to convey the varied attributes of what is an imageless and supranatural simplicity. But in time to come, when we are incorruptible and immortal, when we have come at last to the blessed inheritance of being like Christ, then, as Scripture says, “we shall always be with the Lord.” THE DIVINE NAMES 1.4.
2nd Thes 2.1
The Coming of Our Lord Jesus ChristTHE TIMING OF THE RESURRECTION UNKNOWN. CHRYSOSTOM: When the resurrection will be, he has not said: “It will come in due order”; he has said: “And our assembling to meet him.” This point is quite important. Observe how Paul’s exhortation is accompanied by praise and encouragement, for he makes it clear that Jesus and all the saints will certainly appear at that time with us. HOMILIES ON 2 THESSALONIANS 3.A CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF TIME. ATHANASIUS: Now it is right and necessary, as in all divine Scripture, so here, faithfully to explain the time of which the apostle wrote, and the person and the point. This is so that the reader will not from ignorance miss either these or any similar particular and thus miss the true sense of the text. This was what the inquiring eunuch understood when he asked Philip, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet speak this? Of himself, or of someone else?” He feared lest, having explained the lesson unsuitably to the person, he should wander from the right sense. And the disciples, wishing to learn the time of what was predicted, implored the Lord: “Tell us,” they said, “when shall these things be? And what is the sign of your coming?”3 And again, hearing from the Savior the events of the end, they desired to learn the time of it, that they might be kept from error themselves. They also wished to be able to teach others, just as, when they had learned, they set right the Thessalonians, who were going wrong. When, then, one understands these points properly, knows properly these points, his understanding of the faith is right and healthy. But if he fails to understand, he immediately falls into heresy. Thus, Hymenaeus and Alexander and their followers5 were beside the time when they said that the resurrection had already taken place. The Galatians, too, were after the time in continuing to think circumcision was an important issue. DISCOURSES AGAINST THE ARIANS 1.54.7THE BENEFIT OF NOT KNOWING. ATHANASIUS: And further, not to know when the end is, or when the day of the end will occur, is actually a good thing. If people knew the time of the end, they might begin to ignore the present time as they waited for the end days. They might well begin to argue that they should only focus on themselves. Therefore, God has also remained silent concerning the time of our death. If people knew the day of their death, they would immediately begin to neglect themselves for the greater part of their lifetime. The Word, then, has concealed both the end of all things and the time of our own death from us, for in the end of all is the end of each, and in the end of each the end of all is comprehended. This is so that, when things remain uncertain and always in prospect, we advance day by day as if summoned, reaching forward to the things before us and forgetting the things behind. … The Lord, then, knowing what is good for us beyond ourselves, thus stabilized the disciples in a correct understanding. They, being taught, set right those of Thessalonica, who were likely to err on the very same point. DISCOURSES AGAINST THE ARIANS 3.49-50.9THE SAME CHRIST WILL COME. THEODORET OF CYR: To what has been said it must also be added that we must not affirm that after the ascension the Lord Christ is not Christ but only the begotten Son. The divine Gospels and the history of the Acts and the epistles of the apostle himself were, as we know, written after the ascension. It is after the ascension that the divine Paul exclaims “Seeing then that we have a great high priest that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.” … And again when writing to the same a second time, he says, “Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.” LETTERS 146.DISAGREEMENTS FROM THE BEGINNING. ORIGEN: At least, when the apostles were preaching and the eyewitnesses of Jesus were teaching his precepts, no minor dispute in the church took place among Jewish believers about those of the Gentiles who were converted to the faith; the question was whether they ought to keep the Jewish customs or if the burden of clean or unclean meats ought to be taken away so that it would not be a load upon those Gentiles who abandoned their traditional customs and believed in Jesus. Furthermore, in the epistles of Paul, who was contemporary with those who had seen Jesus, there are some statements to be found which concern certain disputes about the resurrection, and about the view that it had already occurred, and about the question whether the day of the Lord was already present or not. AGAINST CELSUS 3.11.
Bruce, I would suggest the Ancient Christian Commentary on the Scripture, edited by Thomas Oden. can anyone share what a.c.c has on the rapture scriptures?
There's only one "rapture" scripture — 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18. That's all ! From theological discussions, you would think there were many.
17 Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Christo in aëra, Vugate
Rapture < rapio, rapere, rapui, raptus. to snatch, carry off
There's only one "rapture" scripture — 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18. That's all ! From theological discussions, you would think there were many. 17 Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Christo in aëra, Vugate Rapture < rapio, rapere, rapui, raptus. to snatch, carry off
1 Co 15:52-53, and Mt 24:31 seem to be clear cross references. Some even attempt to use 2 Thess 2:3.. I understand that the word rapture is only found in the vulgate.
To Meet the Lord in the Air
Thnx
There's only one "rapture" scripture — 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18. That's all ! From theological discussions, you would think there were many. 17 Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Christo in aëra, Vugate Rapture < rapio, rapere, rapui, raptus. to snatch, carry off 1 Co 15:52-53, and Mt 24:31 seem to be clear cross references. Some even attempt to use 2 Thess 2:3.. I understand that the word rapture is only found in the vulgate.
Some even attempt to use Mt 24:40, but the context (vv. 37-39) shows that is a reference to people being taken away to judgment, and those "left behind" are the righteous.
1 Co 15:52-53, and Mt 24:31 seem to be clear cross references. Some even attempt to use 2 Thess 2:3.. I understand that the word rapture is only found in the vulgate. Some even attempt to use Mt 24:40, but the context (vv. 37-39) shows that is a reference to people being taken away to judgment, and those "left behind" are the righteous.
The 1 Cor passage merely speaks of the resurrection and not about a "rapture." 2 Thess 2.3 doesn't deal with the subject at all but rather with "the lawless man" (I could mention a name here [;)]). I actually think Mt 24.31 comes closer to the idea of a rapture than some other passages (no, it says nothing about judgment)—it's really a fairly enigmatic passage. I think the thrust of it is simply on being prepared.
seem to be clear cross references.
I've been trying to identify the various means of using scripture to interpret scripture. My current working list is:
I've seen the term "clear cross-reference" in resources but honestly am not sure of what they mean. Then there are proposed cross-references that I haven't found the relationship at all. What do you think of when you use the term "clear cross-reference"?
What do you think of when you use the term "clear cross-reference"?
A "clear cross-reference" is (IMHO) an utterly subjective statement, usually based on theological, and/or world-view (AKA cultural) assumptions, that two passages carry roughly the same meaning.
Thanks Richard
