Are there any updates from Logos on The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible and The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation? I know that there have been other threads about this, but they seem to change subject before there is any answer. These would fill a huge void in my library, as I have no texts for either the biblical or sectarian texts from the DSS. Please give us some kind of update...
+ 1 [Y]
I guess we have to be careful not to change the subject here, but you've 'no texts for either the biblical or sectarian texts from the DSS'? Maybe that's not what you really meant?
I guess we have to be careful not to change the subject here...
Was this shot really necessary? Is it too much to ask to make sure that my question gets answered before someone starts asking about unrelated information that kills the thread, making it drop to where no one sees it or cares to look at it anymore?
...you've 'no texts for either the biblical or sectarian texts from the DSS'? Maybe that's not what you really meant?
I have modern biblical texts in Logos, which are based on texts later than the DSS with some material from the DSS, but I don't have any representative of just the information found in the DSS. I have no texts at all in Logos that represent the sectarian scrolls, which deal not with the biblical material, but with the material relating to the community. DSS stands for Dead Sea Scrolls. Either...or forms a correlative conjunction in English grammar. I used either...or to include both types of texts. What do you think that I thought I meant, and what do you think I said incorrectly? Is it that texts seems redundant to you? What?
Joseph, it wasn't a 'shot'. It's just that if everyone complied with each thread like this (question to Logos), the thread would 'shoot to the bottom' since Logos people don't often answer unless they've got definite information. So you'd be 'shooting' yourself in the foot. People's chit-chat effectively keeps moving the thread up in hopes of an answer (the thread's subject line).
As regards either the Biblical or sectarian text, Logos has both currently (2 sectarian, 1 Biblical). Thus I thought what you REALLY meant was you wanted some type of updated version.
Additionally several of the modern versions DO judiciously use the DSS varients (most notably ISV). The primary value of the DSS Bible is its 'notes' or appartus (discussion of the varients), which typically take up 20-30% of each OT page (what makes it unique).
I expect and welcome discussion related to the topic, but all too often the threads are hijacked by those who want to argue theology or needlessly pick apart posts. If the post starts to fall due to lack of participation, I will either bump it or just call. If I call, then I will update it here. I would rather Logos post something though, even if just to explain the delay. These have been in pre-pub for quite some time, and I know that I am not the only one looking for them.
It's not that I necessarily want something that is newer, even though I do, it is that I want something that is not outrageously priced. The Dead Sea Scrolls in English is $120 from Logos. You can get it in paperback for $14.34, or on Kindle for $15.39. I couldn't find anything else in Logos that was much cheaper. Which ones specifically are you looking at?
Yes, and the discussion of the variants, as well as its linking to commentaries/etc. is what I am interested in. There are numerous citations to the scrolls in modern commentaries, and I can't follow their links! This is where the huge void in my library comes in.
Agreed on all your points.
Definitely agree on the pricing for the present DSS Study Edition (sectarian) and the Biblical group. If I hadn't got the latter on pre-pub, 'don't think so'. One quote I recently read, though, was paraphrased 'Unfortunately the dead sea scrolls offer few varients that would affect the meaning of the text (MT)' I thought that was curious, as if there was 'hope' that it would.
And yes ... I wish we could get some GOOD NEWS about the DSS Bible. The authors are just the best; excellent resource for a large number Logosians .
I will be like Andy Dufrane trying to get library books for the Shawshank prison library. I will be bumping this thread at least once a day!
OK, so I opened a chat and asked. The rep didn't say anything bad, but I took out his name and put "Logos" just in case. Here is the chat:
Logos: hello how may i help youJoseph: Hello, I have Dead Sea Scrolls Bible and The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation on my pre-pub page, and I have for some time. Is there any reason that this is taking so long to put out?Logos: Well I believe it is a very complicated text and it takes quite a while for tech developers on such an itemLogos: im sure it will be fantastic when it comes outLogos: Better to do it right the first time than for it to have a lot of issuesJoseph: Oh, I certainly agree. Is there any idea about how long it might take to finish?Logos: there is no timetable set right nowLogos: sorry about thatJoseph: Ok, thanks.
I would still like to get some more reassuring words from Logos...
Bump for more detailed answer from Logos.
Pretty please with sugar on top?
I am also anxiously waiting for these along with The Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
http://www.logos.com/product/8934/the-meaning-of-the-dead-sea-scrolls
I am reading Collin's Daniel commentary in Hermeneia and it is full of DSS references to which I have no links!!!! [:'(]
I am reading Collin's Daniel commentary in Hermeneia and it is full of DSS references to which I have no links!!!!
If you have the Qumran Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls database, http://www.logos.com/product/5961/qumran-biblical-dead-sea-scrolls-database, then most or all of those links should be satisfied. I just checked in Collins's commentary and where there is a link in the Index to a Biblical scroll from the DSS it resolves to the QBDSS.
However, there are many links that should resolve to the QBDSS that do not link to anything. Two good examples: 1) links in the Index to 1QpHab exist and actually link to 1QpHab in the QBDSS. 2) links in the Index to 4QDan(a) exist and do not link to 4QDan(a) in the QBDSS. These are not because of resources we do not hae yet, but are problems with tagging in Collins's commentary and should, by convention, be reported as typo(s) through the software.
As to the non-biblical scrolls, the majority exist within http://www.logos.com/product/4241/the-dead-sea-scrolls-study-edition-vol-i-1q1-4q273-vol-ii-4q274-11q31.The same comments that I just made for the Biblical scrolls apply here. Links should resolve to this resource and if they do not have a link then they should be reported as an error.
So unless I am misunderstanding the question(s) raised in this thread, we do have all (or the majority) of the Biblical and Sectarian texts from the DSS within Logos and within just two resources. It is just that some resources do not have links to them yet and those are errors that should be reported directly to Logos. Adding another resource to Logos cannot fix that problem.
Bump.
I'm reading Tov's Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, and it too is quoting a LOT of DSS Biblical material. Sure would be NICE to have the apparatus to the DSS Bible. Hint, hint.
The issue is not that there are none currently available, but that those two volumes that you quoted are over $200.00, whereas the two on pre-pub are $18.95 each. They have been lingering in pre-pub for quite some time, and I don't want to spend the higher amount if I don't have to. You have provided very useful information concerning those two though, as I have been looking at them some.
Anyone from Logos want to chime in?
Also, I would guess that the two in the topic are English only, whereas the two you linked include the Hebrew, which adds much more value, but I really don't need the Hebrew, and I can always go back and buy the more expensive product if I ever do.
Bump. I'm reading Tov's Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, and it too is quoting a LOT of DSS Biblical material. Sure would be NICE to have the apparatus to the DSS Bible. Hint, hint.
Hey DMB, if you are looking for the Hebrew texts, then one of those cited by James above may be what you are actually looking for.
Thanks Joseph. Actually I do have the DSS Biblical Texts (luckily I got them on Pre-pub).
But I was referring to is the apparatus which points to all the various sources (eg hebrew, LXX, DSS, Samaritan, etc).
Should all references to 4QDan be linked? As you can see from the picture, I have the QBDSS database, and some links don't go to the resource, even just to open it if there is not a specific link. Where is there a link that works, I have not found one?
About now, we need Mark's expertise on the Logos issues with DSS linking. (If I remember right).
Well, I mis-spoke this morning. Problem with not having my coffee before I post
None of the Biblical texts (even those you did not mention) are links and so cannot go to QBDSS. At least none of those in the Dead Sea Scrolls Index section. I must have been looking in a different resource when I followed a link to QBDSS.
Probably the reason that there are no links to the QBDSS is that it is was not yet available when they last updated that volume of Hermenia. But then the QBDSS is fairly new. If we start reporting missing links as typos Logos is usually pretty good about updating resources.
For the OP, the QBDSS is Hebrew transcriptions only but the other resource is Hebrew transcriptions in one volume and English translations in a second volume. And, yes, they are more expensive, but they are much better volumes. The QBDSS is morphologically tagged and the DSSS is an important academic work. But, what volumes you need really depends on why you need the text in the first place.
Still looking for something from Logos!
Still looking forward to an answer.
I'm sure Logos is hesitant to commit to a release date because if there is a delay sometimes customers can complain.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I promise to not complain[:)]
I know how good these resources are - I have them in paperback and can't wait to get them in Logos.
No one is asking for release dates. We just want to know why it's taking so long, and whether it's in the works or delayed indefinitely.
You're right. I phrased my statement incorrectly.
Good morning everyone! Maybe today is the day for an update on this...
I guess it's just coincidence but several of the books I'm now reading (Sealed-Isaeah, OT Critical Text, and comparisons of the Samaritan to 2nd Temple and Christian, ALL use 'Qumran' as a key piece of evidence.
With the authors for these resources being so highly regarded, I wonder what the issue is. Some (more than one?) even spoke at Logos' recent mini-convention.
It really is impossible to read any modern academic work without references to the DSS, so these works meet a major need for many I am sure (particularly at this price point).
The silence from Logos is deafening!
Someone at Logos has to know something about these resources. All we need is an update. Good or bad, please give us an update.
[;)][:)][:P]
LOL, clearly that is a response from someone who has no idea what is going on with the resources (not that I expect that he or she should in general customer service). It would be nice to get a real response from someone who knows something substantive. Maybe someone from the cited tech developers team could weigh in?
I kept my mouth shut when I previously read the earlier quoted 'it's complicated text'.
Huh? DSS Bible?
Come on Logos; we just want an update.
Hopefully answers will be coming soon...
I would suggest sending an email to bob@logos.com to reach Bob Pritchett, President. He is very accessible, and it seems clear by now that no one who has authority to reply is watching this thread.
Great minds think alike...I did exactly that just before my last post. I am sure that he will respond. Like I said before, I don't imagine that this type of information is readily available to customer service, but I was hoping that someone who knows something would have responded to the forum post. Good or bad, it would be nice to get an update.
Also, if he just responds to the email, then obviously I will post that information.
I have no idea.
I know it's frustrating, but it's very difficult for us to answer these "what is the status?" questions on a book-by-book basis. We have something like 3,000 titles in the production queue, and a very complex process involving a lot of people, ranging from licensing to production to testing to release.
Not only do I not know the status, I'm not sure who to ask.
It's not that things are some kind of chaotic mess here: everything makes it through the system, and somewhere someone knows all the books sitting on their desk, what's next, and what is/isn't holding things up. There's even a tracking system (that I don't have direct access to).
But even when you have the tracking system answer (for example, "We're waiting for the license to be signed.") the actual reason -- and an estimate of completion -- can be something one person has in their head. ("The license isn't signed because the publisher's contract administrator is on vacation until the end of the month..." or "The book is going to use the new figure layout code, but that doesn't ship until v4.6, so we're waiting until 4.6 is out of beta, the new display code shipped on all the mobile platforms, and the book compiler updated to the latest display code.")
What I do know is A) every book makes it through the factory in its own time, and hunting down the answer to exactly where this book is inside the big factory will take a lot of time, and C) knowing the answer won't do anything to change the delivery date. Whatever is delaying Title X is likely something someone knows and is working to address, or waiting on some external factor.
Now, with all that said, we try to provide answers...
My suspicion -- based on the fact that both of these titles are from the same publisher, and it's a publisher we do less work with -- is that it's a publisher-related issue. (I don't actually know.) So I'm asking the person who works with the publisher. But if he doesn't know, it may be hard to hunt down the answer. We'll try.
(Please understand that getting answers to "when will this ship" is hard for me -- and I have at least seen the whole "factory." It's next to impossible for a customer service agent to know the answer, or even to find who to ask. And yes, we could "fix this problem" with better reports and tooling and data entry -- but why? It doesn't speed anything up, and would just consume more resources.)
Again, I'm sorry for the frustration... we'll try to find the answer on this pair of books at least...
-- Bob
As I suspected, these books were held up on contract issues. It looks like the issues are resolved, and the internal estimate is that we're within a month of shipping, though I can't promise that will hold up.
Thanks, Bob. Now can you give us an update on the status of the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament?
Just kidding...
...not really.
[:)]
This is great news! Thank you for checking it out for us.
Thanks for this, Bob. In your previous post, you asked "But why?" I think the answer is to keep the customer satisfied. We know that there are often good reasons for delays, but it is worthwhile knowing that there are good reasons, and that the resource hasn't just been forgotten or lost in a priority list somewhere. Customers have committed money to the resources by pre-purchasing them. That may even include a commitment to purchasing in Logos, rather than getting a paper book in the hand straight away. Without updates, customers can become frustrated and lose faith in the company, taking business elsewhere, or they can generate extra costs by continually contacting customer services, who may also be frustrated at not having satisfying answers.
Not long ago, there were quite a number of books that had been 'Under Development' in pre-pub for quite some time without any updates. There aren't many left. I tried to set up a system that would make this easy to track (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/51506/387724.aspx#387724) and a central place for Logos to update us on delayed resources (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/51686/385663.aspx#385663). This means that further such requests on the forum could be pointed to this one thread. It would be good if Logos could update this thread with information regarding the few long delayed resources left. I'd like to suggest that the time taken would be minimal and that the customer satisfaction and reduced customer support, among other gains, would make it worth the effort. This isn't a request for product shipping dates, when they're not known, just a request for telling us as much as Logos honestly can, so we know that resources haven't been forgotten.
Thanks again for a great product and for giving time to the odd forum post like this one.
Thanks for the update.
Bob, I know that you said not to hold you to a month on these, and I don't intend to, but I kind of feel like we are in the same position we were in before. It has been over a month and the status has not changed at all. Any ideas?
Bob Pritchett: No.
No, I don't have power of attorney for Bob...but I'm sure that would be his answer.
Just got an email that at least some of these resources (DSS Meaning & New Translation) ship on 2 October 2012. [Y]
Thank you Paul. I would have missed it! http://www.logos.com/product/8934/the-meaning-of-the-dead-sea-scrolls
Looking at the sample pages, it looks pretty 'conversational' but for $16 and two great authors, should be worth it.
Here's the other one: http://www.logos.com/product/8868/the-dead-sea-scrolls-a-new-translation
DMB, thanks for posting the links. For someone planning on studying the Dead Sea Scrolls at an introductory level, I was planning on buying the DSS Bible (linked in your OP) and the DSS Meaning book. Do you think it would be beneficial to buy the DSS New Translation as well, or should I be able to make do with the DSS Bible only (in terms of accessing an English translation)? Thanks. [Y]
Paul, I'm going to have to admit complete stupidity on the significance of Geza Vermes' translation ( see Dominick's discussion: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/54645.aspx ) versus Wise/Abegg here.
Maybe Dominick knows. There's two issues; translational patterns and what fragments (typically) are included in the respective updates.
As I read your question again, maybe there might be some confusion in what's in each resource?
'Dead Sea Scrolls Bible' integrates the Dead Sea Scrolls Biblical fragments into the Masorete OT and to some degree the LXX OT. It's most useful for its notes that discuss the differences in the OT text. Very easy to use; you can tie it in with your other Bibles.
Wise/Abegg (the 'New Translation') and also Geza Vermes' translation is the non_Biblical fragments which include many of the writings by those at Qumran, as well as other jewish writings from earlier (again, not the OT). These are useful for learning about many of the jewish concepts that 'swirled' around, near the time of Jesus.
Quite frankly I'd suggest both the DSS Bible (the notes), the 'Meaning' (an excellent discussion) and one of the non-Biblical translations (eg Wise/Abegg) so you can follow along as you read the 'Meaning'. Now is an excellent chance to take advantage of the pre-pubs.
