Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond

Bob Pritchett
Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280
edited November 20 in English Forum

Logos Bible Software was created in the days of packaged software sold on physical media, before consumers had heard of the Internet. (It was 1991!)

Logos got its first Internet-enabled features in 1995, and over the years Logos has grown to be more and more connected to the Internet. Still, Logos 5 will run without an Internet connection, and users can (and do) have completely offline use of it. But most users are connected to the Internet most/all of the time, and we're designing future features in Logos to take advantage of this.

When you use a product that's delivered via a web site, there are certain assumptions you can safely make about what's being stored on the web servers: everything.

Every click, page view, search, IP address, time of visit, and bit of information typed into the site is stored. At a minimum, the standard "web log" functionality of the web server (standard since the first days of the web) is recording most of this info for every page view, and, since the entire site/application is on a remote server, all the information you type / enter is stored there, too.

Much of this info is recorded many times, at many places. Your web provider probably records and stores this info for months/years (so law enforcement can request it if desired) and the site may feed Google Analytics or another tool a copy of the data in order to get convenient reports/analysis.

People are rarely surprised by this. But it seems people are sometimes surprised, and even upset, to find out that desktop applications are now recording and reporting similar information.

Most desktop applications are, or shortly will be, completely integrated with web services. Even if an application does no explicit data sharing with a web service, simply checking RSS feeds, looking for updates / news / etc. generates web server logs that can be analyzed.

And most applications are explicitly interacting with web services, in order to deliver cloud-connected features, support synchronization between desktop and mobile devices, backup user data, access databases too large to store locally, etc.

Logos Bible Software has been interacting with web services for years. Early on it was simply retrieving news feeds and update notices, but starting with Logos 4 the application became highly integrated with web services.

We no longer think of Logos Bible Software as a stand-alone desktop software package. We think of it as a connected family of desktop and mobile software applications and online web services that help people study the Bible, alone or in community with others.

As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)

But our plan is to increase our use of the Internet to provide better functionality and new features, and we believe this will deliver real value to our users.

Things we do "online" and why:

Logos collects stats on the use of the software. At various times we've collected all kinds of different stats; at the moment Logos 5 collects less information than earlier versions, but we expect to hook up more reporting in the future.

These stats have led to actual improvements in our business and software. For example:

We tracked what percentage of users were on what operating system. This helped us know when we could drop support for old versions of Windows or Mac OS X, affecting few users and allowing us to allocate resources to new work instead of old OS support.

We tracked what percentage of users running the software each day had upgraded to a new version. It's useful to know when 80% of daily users are running Logos 5 -- we can stop promoting the upgrade so heavily. :-) If we weren't tracking the version used each day we'd only know the percentage of Logos 4 purchasers who had purchased Logos 5, and that might include purchasers who no longer use the software, distorting the data.

We tracked search queries. This is such a massive amount of info that the last time we decided to do some serious analysis on search queries we limited it to a single month. We sorted queries by frequency and looked to see how many used boolean operators, could not be parsed by the query engine, etc. We even just browsed them. (The document was a list of queries with counts -- no user identities.) From looking at a large aggregation of search queries we learned that boolean operators aren't used much, and were more likely to mess up a query than be used correctly. This led to the use of all-caps AND and OR as operators, reducing the chance that users would unintentionally include an "and" or "or" that messed up a query that was a phrase. We also saw people were searching for the names of holidays, like "Mothers' Day", which fed into our decision to develop the Preaching Themes database, which is used to tag resources -- and includes Mothers' Day and other holidays as themes.

We tracked which dialog boxes were used. This led to our decision to avoid dialog boxes in Logos 4.

We tracked which books were opened. This led to removing some books from collections, or keeping books in collections that we might otherwise have removed. It also helped us understand how important "smart" defaults were, in light of how strong an association there is between a book being the first reported in a tool and the one more opened.

These stats, when aggregated, offer value to Logos and help us make a better product. Many of them also feed back into features that benefit users:

We can offer "Sort by Recent" in mobile apps because the software stored what you opened when. We can offer the "auto-bookmarks" in the scroll bar of a resource, for quick jumping to a previously visited location. We can open a book on your mobile device to the place you were reading on another device because we sync your last read location. Soon we can indicate when you've read a book completely, eliminating the need to manually add a "read" tag in the library, as some users now do.

Moving forward, we plan to offer "crowd sourced" data that benefits all our users. (You will be able to turn off, or ignore, this crowd-sourced data if you don't want to use it.)

We modeled our star rating for resources on other widely used systems, like Netflix and Amazon.com and hundreds of other sites: you can apply your own star rating to any resource, which overrides any other rating. But if you don't rate something, by default you see the "community" rating. (And you can see both by hovering over the stars.)

Community tags supplement your own tags, and are intended to harness the "community" wisdom about a particular resource, helping you find things more easily and better understand your library.

(Both of these features were fully designed for Logos 4, but didn't make the development cutoff. When we finally shipped them in Logos 5 -- using the specs written for Logos 4 -- many users had already adopted their own meaning/conventions for tags and star ratings, and found the community data a distraction. We will be implementing a way to turn them off if you don't want to see this community info.)

These community features presently treat the entire user base as one community, but the intention has always been to introduce a "users like you" component to the algorithms, much like the way Netflix tries to tell you what their algorithm thinks YOU would rate the movie, not what everyone rated it.

Our hope is that we get enough data -- using voluntarily provided info like "denomination", and sales data like "what books you specifically purchased" -- that we could give you a star rating from "users like you", and weight the community tags in the same way. So a commentary set labeled 5 stars and tagged "reliable" by users of one denomination, say, would be reported that way to others of that denomination who bought similar resources, but might be rated "3 stars" and tagged "conservative" to users of another denomination who had purchased different resources. (The rating would probably differ, but you'd probably see all the tags -- they'd just be different sizes for different users.)

(This kind of recommendation system requires a lot of data in order to work, but with over 1 million users of our platform, we believe we can collect enough data to make it work in the future. And this is something we want to do in response to actual user requests: new customers often ask "what books should I buy?" or "can you recommend a commentary I can trust?" Or, "can you label the commentaries as conservative/liberal, or this-label/that-label?" We can't really do that in a way that's right for everyone, but we might be able to let "everyone" tell us enough that we can tell you what "people like you" think about this or that book. I'm sure this doesn't appeal to our 'power users', but I know it's highly requested by many new users. They want your opinion, power user!)

Popular highlights is another long-planned feature that aggregates many users' data (in this case, extracting the highlighted range, but not the text of notes or even the label of the highlighting style) to report which ranges of books were highlighted by many people. (The 'many' is dynamic -- in some resources it's 5+ users -- the minimum -- and in others there are so many highlights that a range isn't considered popular until 20, 50 or more users have independently highlighted it.)

Aggregated demographic data will be extracted and likely shared with some publishers and authors. I'm not sure how useful this actually is -- will knowing that a book is popular with people who use the Greek NT, or even with people who have identified with a particular denomination, be useful to an author or publisher? Will someone go run an ad in the denomination magazine as a result? I don't know, but I do know that authors and publishers love this kind of info. "Lutheran women read my book on Wednesdays on Android phones, but they all give up after chapter 6. What does it mean?!" :-) 

We hope to extract other useful stats from the intersection of feature use reporting and user data. I can imagine doing an analysis to see what words in the Greek NT are most often right-clicked and looked up, or have a Bible Word Study run on them. (And/or which words were the headwords for user-edited Bible Word Study Guides.) From this we might be able to get a list of "words of significant interest", in which we could invest more editorial resources and/or new features. The "Interesting Words" section of the Passage Guide, presently built by statistical analysis of the text, could be informed by statistical analysis of user interaction, too.

In the same way (I'm making stuff up now) we might want to run an analysis of which verses in the Bible have the most user-written note text attached. This might tell us the passages we should be giving the most attention to in future updates of the Faithlife Study Bible, or the Evangelical Exegetical Commentary.

Admittedly, these features would require "looking at synced user data" -- but I hope you can see how "the looking" is done by algorithms and doesn't represent a privacy invasion. In fact, this type of analysis is only useful when it's on "too much data." We need the forest, not a tree, to see the patterns that help us design features and content.

Other ways we'll be introducing "community":

We're lighting up collaborative documents at http://documents.logos.com. This will eventually be enabled for almost every document type.

The "personal" use case is your being able to publish (read-only) or collaborate (shared editing and ownership) documents with any group you'd like. A pastor / professor / teacher could publish notes on a book of the Bible. Students could collaborate on a note document on a textbook. A scholar could collaborate on a highlighting project with a research assistant.

We hope to enable some forms of "community" data editing -- and even remote editorial work for compensation. For example, Logos 5 has some data sets that were created by tagging the biblical text -- we even used our own highlighting tool for some of the work. With collaborative documents, users could choose to join a tagging project on a text that Logos might not otherwise get to. Imagine if referent analysis, speaker labels, word senses, and clause searching were available for the Apostolic Fathers, Josephus, Philo, and all of the Perseus Project. These collaborative/social documents could help us distribute the workload over many contributors, track who made what contribution, and even pay for contributions in Logos credit.

This could allow students to "work for books" (a request we get surprisingly often) and help us offer richer data sets that we might otherwise not soon afford or have time to create.

We plan to make it easier to recommend resources and even to share quotations from resources. You can already tweet or share quotes from books, but in future releases you'll have the option to share a quotation from the book publicly, and resources will have online pages where you can see the publicly shared quotations before buying the resource.

See https://faithlife.com/markbarnes/resources as an example; it is a summary of Mark Barnes' reviews. The disabled tab for "Recommendations" is where I will be able to see all the books Mark has recommended (either publicly, or to a specific group that he and I are co-members of -- so he could recommend a particular book just to his church, or a class). On the "Quotes" tab I would see any quotes from the book that Mark had intentionally shared -- and, if I own the book, I'll be able to jump directly to that location in the book.

(Mark, I hope you don't mind me using you as an example -- you've written a lot of reviews. Thanks!)

We take user privacy very seriously; we offer a number of settings, you have the option to run completely offline, and we follow best practices like not storing your password at all. (That's why our CS reps can't tell or email your password, only reset it -- we literally don't have access to it.)

At the same time, though, we are committed to being a web-based, data-driven platform. We are no longer designing a stand-alone, isolated desktop application. Some planned features will require access to databases too large to deliver to user devices; you'll need web access to use them. We will be listening to our users, responding to their feedback and concerns, but like other web-based platforms, we will not necessarily be offering control over every individual setting. Some things come along with being web-based.

For example, you can choose to keep all your digital photos on your own machine disconnected from the Internet, or you can choose to upload them to Flickr. And at Flickr you may even have some settings about what info is shared with what users, or what permissions your photos are shown with. But Flickr will analyze all the uploaded photos to build a report of what cameras / phones are being used: http://www.flickr.com/cameras/ You can't say "yes, I want my photos stored on your server, but no, don't count them in your stats."

We are very careful and respectful of individual privacy, and we'll be offering some controls/options, but we aren't, for example, going to support "sync my data but don't count me towards the number of Mac OS X users."

The coarse grained control is turning off "Use Internet" in the Program Settings. The more fine-grained controls are still being decided on, and will reflect your input.

I hope this overview is helpful, and that you can appreciate the value that these social / community features add to the Logos platform, and hopefully to your study and investment as well.

 

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Comments

  • Philana Crouch
    Philana Crouch Member Posts: 2,151

    I am really excited about the ability to share quotes from resources. One thing I find a bit frustrating with Faithlife is that I will share quotes from the Bible and it defaults to the ESV even it I am using a different translation. It would be great to have it respect my translation choice. 

    I like the social features, the idea of being able to callaborate on documents. I could have used this type of thing is school.

  • Ronald Quick
    Ronald Quick Member Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭

    As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)

    Bob,

    PLEASE continue to allow Logos to function without being connected to the Internet.  I don't mind being connected for updates, resource purchases, syncing, etc., but there are many times that I am not connected to the Internet.  I don't want to HAVE to be online for Logos to function.  This is really an important issue for me.

    Thanks,

    Ron

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 35,770

    We modeled our star rating for resources ... But if you don't rate something, by default you see the "community" rating. ...

    Community tags supplement your own tags, and are intended to harness the "community" wisdom about a particular resource...

    (Both of these features were fully designed for Logos 4, but didn't make the development cutoff. When we finally shipped them in Logos 5 -- using the specs written for Logos 4 -- many users had already adopted their own meaning/conventions for tags and star ratings, and found the community data a distraction. We will be implementing a way to turn them off if you don't want to see this community info.)

    On a quick read of  your post this was what I was really looking for. Thank you.

    But I would also ask you include a simple way to turn off Popular Highlights, Popular Tags which are equally distracting, and also include Community Notes together with any other shared/mined data you may be planning to introduce  (simple does not mean hunting for a resource to disable the information).

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

  • David Ames
    David Ames Member Posts: 2,977 ✭✭✭


    Thanks for the update and comments – they let us get a hint of where you’re going

    “”We tracked which books were opened””

    Did you track which books were hit in the search – often the search summary gives all the data we need for the answer we are looking for?  [So they might have been used without being opened]

    “”We will be implementing a way to turn them off if you don't want to see this community info.””

    Thanks 

    “”"users like you"””

    Good luck – I am one of a kind – I went from Platinum 4 to Platinum 5 and added Capstone. And when I do a major research I want to know what everybody says and every side of the topic. 

    "denomination"

    There are times when I don’t want “users like” me – I want to know what members of some other “denomination” recommend.  Will changing our “denomination” setting change what we see? [Or will what we see be determined by our past  “”history””] 

    “”Popular highlights “”    need a global off switch – I am not sure I want someone else to show me where the important parts are.    


  • Rene Atchley
    Rene Atchley Member Posts: 325 ✭✭

    In many ways I can appreciate the desire and usefulness of gaining huge amounts of research data for various purposes such as marketing, product development, and stream lining support services.  Yet when I first saw this feature, in Logos 3 I think, it really turned me off of the product to such an extent as to seriously seek out other products...mostly a waste of time however.  Since you have opened the door to this discussion I would simply ask why should I tell you (or your company) anything about the use of this or any other software on my computer?  For that matter why should I trust to only stop at peaking under the hood for Logos products either in a specific or general way?  Recently I did a bit of research for a national TV rating's company that paid me $5.00 for only a week's worth of journaling in regards to my viewing habits.  I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.

  • Milford Charles Murray
    Milford Charles Murray Member Posts: 5,004 ✭✭✭

    I hope this overview is helpful, and that you can appreciate the value that these social / community features add to the Logos platform, and hopefully to your study and investment as well.

    Peace, Bob!            Yes!      Very helpful indeed!           Very much appreciated.     Some of these concepts and "directions" are truly monumental.  You've done well with this overview.  Basically this individual  (me!   *smile* ) concurs and trusts you and your people (colleagues? collaborators? team-mates? staff?)

    I must say, Bob!  You have assembled and co-ordinated such a wonderful and amazing group of men and women who are part of the Logos Mission!  Well-done!                                    Vaya Con Dios!                                          and ...               Always Joy in the Lord!

    Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

  • Jon
    Jon Member Posts: 767 ✭✭

    We hope to enable some forms of "community" data editing -- and even remote editorial work for compensation. For example, Logos 5 has some data sets that were created by tagging the biblical text -- we even used our own highlighting tool for some of the work. With collaborative documents, users could choose to join a tagging project on a text that Logos might not otherwise get to. Imagine if referent analysis, speaker labels, word senses, and clause searching were available for the Apostolic Fathers, Josephus, Philo, and all of the Perseus Project. These collaborative/social documents could help us distribute the workload over many contributors, track who made what contribution, and even pay for contributions in Logos credit.

    [Y]

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,409

    I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.

    Microsoft never pays me for crash reports ... but I don't mind helping them identify the crashes so that I get fewer of them. In that past few years, I've finally lost the ability to crash MSWord at will.






    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Thomas Jackson
    Thomas Jackson Member Posts: 61

    Bob,

    I pray that the 'Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond' will be fully Implemented in a different version of Logos. I've invested about $5,000 dollars in Logos and do not support nor want this 'Social / community' direction. If, however, the new design will be implemented in Logos 5, I need to re-think not only the $1,200 dollars pre-pub orders I'm waiting for, but also any future orders.

    Thomas

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,636

    Hi Thomas

    and do not support nor want this 'Social / community' direction

    For clarity would you be able to advise on whether the collection of your data or the display of aggregation of other people's data is the issue for you - or, indeed, something else?

    Is it a philosophical or practical in nature?

    Hope you can advise on this - it's just not clear to me from your post as to what your concerns really are - and hence how Logos could address them.

    Thanks, Graham 

     

  • Mark Barnes
    Mark Barnes Member Posts: 15,432 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the full post, Bob (and for the unexpected mention!). I think only two things are required for meet the vast majority of users' concerns:

    1. Making sure that having "Send Feedback" set to "None" means that no tracking in done within the desktop app (no search results collected, no highlighting aggregated, and so on). IMO this setting should also mean that a user with this setting should not have their synced documents included in any analysis.
    2. Allow users to turn of the receiving (or at least the displaying) of community data, without turning off the syncing of their own data. This includes Faithlife Community notes, community ratings/tags, popular highlighting, etc.

    I confess I see no need of either of those things myself (the former because I trust you and want Logos to improve, the latter because I can switch them off individually or ignore them), but I think I understand why others might want them.

    This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

  • Dominick Sela
    Dominick Sela Member Posts: 3,641 ✭✭✭

    It sounds like a great vision, thanks for sharing it Bob. I am on board 100%.  I was not a huge fan of Faithlife, community features etc. in the beginning, but I am being won over - I can see the vision of how these types of things will enhance my own study.

  • Dominick Sela
    Dominick Sela Member Posts: 3,641 ✭✭✭

    I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.

    I hope you don't use ANY search engine on the Internet - they grab a lot more data about what you are doing than Logos does! Or I hope you don't use any Microsoft products....or Adobe....or browser...or any of a number of other "non community" products. People think only Facebook, Twitter, Flickr and the like are grabbing data, but that's grossly inaccurate. Oh and don't forget your TV viewing preferences, unless you only do over the air (and they collect data too, just not as much), DirecTV, Comcast, and all the other satellite/cable providers are collecting huge amounts of preference/usage data.

    The only way to avoid this, as Bob says, is turn off the Internet. It's a connected world now.

  • Thomas Jackson
    Thomas Jackson Member Posts: 61

    Graham,

    It seems to me that the direction Logos is headed is greatly influenced by the philosophical posts on this forum (not the 'bug' fixes).  While I respect the opions of others, I prefer that my version of Logos be independent of their input. Again, I do respect you and a few others who post on this forum, but I would like to keep my version of Logos  independent of forum posters philosophical inputs.

    Thomas 

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,636

    Graham,

    It seems to me that the direction Logos is headed is greatly influenced by the philosophical posts on this forum (not the 'bug' fixes).  While I respect the opions of others, I prefer that my version of Logos be independent of their input. Again, I do respect you and a few others who post on this forum, but I would like to keep my version of Logos  independent of forum posters philosophical inputs.

    Thomas 

    Thanks Thomas

    That's helpful.

    Appreciated, Graham 

     

  • tom
    tom Member Posts: 3,213


    The coarse grained control is turning off "Use Internet" in the Program Settings. The more fine-grained controls are still being decided on, and will reflect your input.

    Bob, this is something that I and others have been asking for some time, and I want to say thanks.

     I doubt that you remember this, but I am in communication with my representatives and senators concerning consumer's privacy.  And this is what I have been saying that consumers need to have.

     Now, it is not likely that you are thinking of fine-grained controls the same way that I am thinking of fine-grained controls.  I believe controls should be very very very very very fine.  For an example, I believe that I should have a flag for each note to indicate if it should be synced to your server or not.  The same is true when it comes to our prayer requests and everything else.

     I also believe that I should be able to exempt my information from being used in your decision process.  I believe my privacy is more important than your bottom line, and any mining my data is an invasion of my privacy without my approval.

     Again, I wanted to say thanks for providing more security controls in the future.

  • David Taylor, Jr.
    David Taylor, Jr. Member Posts: 4,377 ✭✭✭

    Bob,

    I am VERY excited about the coming features and your vision for the software!  However, I suggest locking this thread before it becomes a very depressing thread like others...

     

    [Y]

  • John Duffy
    John Duffy Member Posts: 591

    Hi Bob,

    Thanks for such detail and clarity on the topic.

    Some things come along with being web-based.

    I appreciate this, and I have no problem in Logos not only knowing what my purchases are (as is normal for any vendor), but I also don't mind feedback of a fair degree of usage of the program that helps Logos develop and more appropriately meet and exceed user expectations/needs. 

    One of my concerns is that if Logos was a new program just introduced onto the market, it would be expected (if not unthinkable not to) that the developer would provide the explicit option for the user to choose whether or not to participate in data collection or feedback (for statistical analysis, or other purposes e.g. to generate community data).  As noted on the forum elsewhere, there is some wording in the 'Online Backup' section of the EULA which loosely covers statistical analysis, and states that user's data will not be shared without their permission. But it is not explicit or clear enough, especially with respect to using users' data for other purposes such as to generate community data (although admittedly 'popular highlights' is a pretty tame use of such data).  But the main thing is that users don't have an option whether to participate or not in their data or statisics being used by Logos.  At present, the only workaround is to turn off internet usage, which is not very practical in general.  In principle, I'm not against using users' data for generating statistics or even community
    data at times (e.g. popular highlights), but I would simply like the choice as to
    whether to do so, or not. 

    We are very careful and respectful of
    individual privacy, and we'll be offering some controls/options

    But I'm pleased to read this, and look forward to seeing what the options/controls will be.

    Personally, I don't mind the vast majority of usage statistics (e.g. what books I open, what I right-click on etc) being gathered, and would allow such if I had the option.  But I am concerned at having no option with what I consider to be personal 'value added' data that is over and above my statistically-interesting usage of the application.  At a minumum, this includes all 'Documents' (Prayer lists, Notes, Clippings, etc) which contain some very confidential information that I would not like to be viewed or used for any purposes.  But it also includes other data such as Guides which can contain notes, or possibly even text that is marked up as significant (highlighting).  

    While the EULA tells us "Do not store highly confidential information in the software", many users would consider that their Prayer Lists, or Notes for research purposes, come under this description.  There seems therefore to be an inherent conflict between what the program allows us to do, and what it tells us we should not do in order to maintain confidentiality.  I don't mind syncing for online backup purposes (although I can
    imagine those in persecuted countries being concerned about digital eavesdropping, unless it is
    encrypted while being transferred), but I consider not having a choice on the use of such data to be a
    different thing entirely.  I hope I don't sound alarmist on this, since I'm not suggesting that Logos has used, or would use, such data in ways that would cause significant concern for users.  I just think that it would be good to have options on confidentiality, and clarity on such matters.

    The coarse grained control is turning off "Use Internet" in the Program Settings. The more fine-grained controls are still being decided on, and will reflect your input.

    I've posted here because you're looking for input.  Here are some options I would be happy with.  While one option is a global 'Send Feedback' option of On or Off, which would disable sync etc, but still allow resource downloads and updates, multiple options could be offered such as;

    1. Allow feedback on 'basic program usage' (e.g. what resources are used, what is right-clicked etc.
    2. Allow sync of 'user generated data' (Documents, Guides, etc.) for backup purposes only.  (While this would normally be enabled/disabled per user account accross all devices, it might be helpful at times to have it as an option on a per device basis, e.g. when many users of the family iPad could see confidential Prayer Lists, a user might like sync enabled on their PC but disabled on their iPad.  But that is a very, very, minor issue in comparison to having the option to sync or not at all.  I mention it to see what others think on this.)
    3. Allow analysis and anonymised use of the contents of 'user generated data' e.g. to generate community data (such as popular highlights.

    The display of community data doesn't concern me too much, as it is not a privacy issue, but it would be handy to have a global option as to whether to display that or not.

    I look forward to seeing what the options/controls will be.  Thanks for expanding the conversation and looking for input on the topic.

  • Samuel
    Samuel Member Posts: 113

    Bob,

    Thank you so much for sharing this information. I'd like to politely add my input to what some others have posted. 

    1. Please give us a way to opt-out of all community features in the product. I can see that some might enjoy those features and understand them, but there are many of us who do not need/want this kind of functionality in the website. There should be a way for us to sync our documents to use them on mobile devices without having to use other community features.

    2. Please give us a way to opt-out of data collection. I understand the positive side of it for the company and the benefits you gain from it. I also know a lot of us are uncomfortable with intentional, intricate data collection as we use Logos. Yes, I know that Google and many others attempt to be even more invasive. Still, we should have a way to opt out. Right now every company is trying to track everything I do and it's uncomfortable. I don't want my every step observed in Logos though I have no ill will against the company.

    3. I'm not entirely clear why you anticipate it being nearly impossible to use Logos in the future without the internet. I can completely understand if you meant that some features would require the internet, but I do not see why the application should require the internet. For example, iTunes was one of the first desktop applications to be deeply connected to the internet, but it lets me disable music recommendations and use my local music all day long without any internet connection. I can choose to use the internet based features or just use my local library. I would hope Logos would remain the same way, not just for the "missionary without internet" but for many of us who many not want be wired every second of our lives. This is already a frustration in the iOS app where certain things won't work unless I have an internet connection. Please don't cripple Logos in the same way.

    Thanks for your openness about the direction of Logos.

  • Jon
    Jon Member Posts: 767 ✭✭

    One of my concerns is that if Logos was a new program just introduced onto the market, it would be expected (if not unthinkable not to) that the developer would provide the explicit option for the user to choose whether or not to participate in data collection or feedback (for statistical analysis, or other purposes e.g. to generate community data).

    Really? In my experience most programs do this kind of thing without ever telling you, these days its hard to open a corporate email without them collecting the info of when and where and what you click.

    If anyone feels very strongly about this kind of thing, protect yourself at the level of your computer with a decent outgoing firewall. On mac, Little Snitch is excellent and easy to use, giving you fine-grained control over what programs can connect to the internet for, I'm sure someone could recommend an equivalent for PC.

    Here's an example of my settings for L5, as you can see, I'm not too fussed about what Logos does with my info or anonymised data:

    image

    You're in control of what programs can do on your computer — in many cases you may lose functionality if you block the connections, but that's your prerogative...

    For everyone else, thanks for contributing to my reading experience just by the simple act of highlighting your books! I've been loving the community highlights as I've been reading a couple of books; the net effect of many users insight in picking out the key insight on a page, or something that has been particularly well articulated is excellent! Thankyou [:D]

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 13,629 ✭✭✭

    Yep ... that's what I did last night ... denied internet access to all the Logos4 and Logos5 entries (of course keeping that good boy Libronix). Then pulled my credit card. My account will likely die and so eventually Logos but life is good and I intend to keep it that way.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Terry Poperszky
    Terry Poperszky Member Posts: 1,576

    Thanks for the full post, Bob (and for the unexpected mention!). I think only two things are required for meet the vast majority of users' concerns:

     

    1. Making sure that having "Send Feedback" set to "None" means that no tracking in done within the desktop app (no search results collected, no highlighting aggregated, and so on). IMO this setting should also mean that a user with this setting should not have their synced documents included in any analysis.
    2. Allow users to turn of the receiving (or at least the displaying) of community data, without turning off the syncing of their own data. This includes Faithlife Community notes, community ratings/tags, popular highlighting, etc.

     

    I confess I see no need of either of those things myself (the former because I trust you and want Logos to improve, the latter because I can switch them off individually or ignore them), but I think I understand why others might want them.

    I agree fully with Mark on these points including his last. I have no problem with Logos collecting this type of data, but I do understand those who would and was extremely turned off by the solution "turn off using the internet".

     

     

     

     

  • David Taylor, Jr.
    David Taylor, Jr. Member Posts: 4,377 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the full post, Bob (and for the unexpected mention!). I think only two things are required for meet the vast majority of users' concerns:

     

    1. Making sure that having "Send Feedback" set to "None" means that no tracking in done within the desktop app (no search results collected, no highlighting aggregated, and so on). IMO this setting should also mean that a user with this setting should not have their synced documents included in any analysis.
    2. Allow users to turn of the receiving (or at least the displaying) of community data, without turning off the syncing of their own data. This includes Faithlife Community notes, community ratings/tags, popular highlighting, etc.

     

    I confess I see no need of either of those things myself (the former because I trust you and want Logos to improve, the latter because I can switch them off individually or ignore them), but I think I understand why others might want them.

    I agree fully with Mark on these points including his last. I have no problem with Logos collecting this type of data, but I do understand those who would and was extremely turned off by the solution "turn off using the internet".

     

     

    I agree this would be a fair resolution.  And once again, I myself do not care about my data being analyzed. 

     

  • Frank Sauer
    Frank Sauer Member Posts: 1,762 ✭✭✭

    I for one hope that as suggested by Mark that send feedback or equivalent to off really means off. While I understand and respect your vision Bob,the major issue here is that many long term users have invested thousands in resources and due to the deprecation of older engines that did not have these concerns, it seems Logos is forcing users to agree to your data mining desires or lose use. Even if we turn internet off, what happens when we connect to run updates? Doesn't it still sync and data mine? So for someone who truly wants no part of this, they really do lose functionally many features and updates and if you force internet connection in the future all the more.

    Many users invested for the purpose of studying the Word of God, not to be a part of a data mining community resource software package. As for measuring things like operating systems can't that be measured via updates? For a better understanding of which resources people like and don't, popular highlights and usage stats a sufficient data sample could be generated from those who are into the community aspect without forcing everyone to take part in the data collection.

    For the record there are some comparisons that can be made with Google and search engines, etc, however we have not bought a product from them. Customers have PAID for their products and should not be forced into data collection in regard to Logos Bible Software. From today and going forward at no time should your customers be held hostage in regard to full functionality, if they desire to not take part. So a simple opt out from data collection check box would eliminate the whole debate and make all customers those for and those against satisfied.

    Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14

  • Alexander
    Alexander Member Posts: 494

    I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.

  • David Taylor, Jr.
    David Taylor, Jr. Member Posts: 4,377 ✭✭✭

    Alexander said:

    I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.

    Most likely the case.

  • Samuel
    Samuel Member Posts: 113

    Alexander said:

    I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.

    I think that's over simplification. Yes, younger users tends to have less privacy concerns, but that's because they've grown up in a world of eroding privacy. They don't know a world where it's any other way. They have been sold the benefits of it without understanding the negatives.

    While there are advantages to data collection, it also has some real downsides. It's reasonable, since many of us are primarily paying to own a collection of resources on our desktop, for Logos to provide a way to opt out of such deep data collection. All of us aren't convinced the benefits of being tracked are worth it. It's fine if people thing differently. If Logos goes all in on this without an opt out, I know it would force me to serious consider moving to alternative Bible software. Just the conversation makes me think twice about investing significantly in more resources until it's clear what the direction of all this will be. Not trying to threaten anything, just express the value of a true desktop application that lets me opt out of things that I don't want to participate in.

  • Jack Caviness
    Jack Caviness MVP Posts: 13,514

    Alexander said:

    I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.

    I think that's over simplification. Yes, younger users tends to have less privacy concerns, but that's because they've grown up in a world of eroding privacy. They don't know a world where it's any other way. They have been sold the benefits of it without understanding the negatives.

    Alexander, What generation do you expect to be bothered? I agree with Samuel that this is an over simplification. Don't know the ages of those with various privacy phobias, but I personally find their arguments to be nonsense less than persuasive. 

    I am three score and fifteen, and I know many Logos forum members who are near my age who have expressed no objections to Logos' data mining in the way Bob has just described.

    If Logos goes all in on this without an opt out, I know it would force me to serious consider moving to alternative Bible software. Just the conversation makes me think twice about investing significantly in more resources until it's clear what the direction of all this will be. Not trying to threaten anything, just express the value of a true desktop application that lets me opt out of things that I don't want to participate in.

    I take it, then, that you do not use an Microsoft products.

    When I was young—many years ago—the older folk had a saying that is appropriate to you and others who are threatening to take your business aways from Logos over these issues—The called it cutting off your nose to spite you face or throwing out the baby with the bath water.

  • EmileB
    EmileB Member Posts: 235

    I happen to live and work in a country that poses some unique Internet issues. First, in general, where I happen to be located at the moment, Internet access is TERRIBLE... and I think a lot more people than Bob realizes may be in that situation. I just find it hard to believe that nearly everyone has 24/7 high speed Internet access, but maybe that is indeed the case.

    The cost of Internet access is also a factor for many of us. Many of us pay by the megabyte, and at a high rate. I don't allow the cost to hinder me too much, but I can say that the quality of the Internet here definitely puts some constraints on my full appreciation/use of Logos. I often am forced to work offline... and it really does concern me that eventually I might not be able to access the functionality of future versions of Logos without a good and continual Internet access being required.

    As long as I will be able to use the current incarnation of the engine (even if I can't access the latest slick database), to access my existing library/investment, I'm okay with that I guess. Other people have different interests, and I have no right to hold Logos users back from new features they would find useful (not to be a stick in the mud or a Neanderthal, but as Bob said elsewhere, Logos can already slice and dice about as thoroughly as it can be done. I would think for most users, there comes a point of diminishing returns.... where we are way OVER analyzing the text in a way that was not intended by the original authors, and that it comes ultimately to being counterproductive. Maybe I didn't say that very well... but it just seems like eventually, we have more than enough tools to analyze the text ad nauseum.... I know, I know... that's probably heresy on these forums.... ;-) )

    But all of that being said... we really need to have the ability to keep using the software offline... at least to access our existing resources. We have invested a LOT (many of us), and its scary to think that the lights could go out so to speak... not that Logos will fold... but that it COULD become unusable...

    A greater issue here where I am is the issue of privacy. ALL internet use is monitored. Visiting certain websites will get you jailed. You have to present your passport at any Internet cafe, which tracks every site you visit and is legally forced to report the same to the KGB (yes, still VERY alive and well here) on a monthly basis. One must be careful what one writes... anything that the president can even consider to be negative or defamatory or impinging upon his reputation or respect will generate a substantial fine and some significant jail time. The best hackers in the world are from here (along with the origin of most viruses), and the school from the former days of the Soviet Union where this was taught still exists, is promoted, and thrives. It is a very constant concern that keystroke/keyboard trackers are on your machine here. And faith-based sites are not considered "innocuous" here.

    So I don't get real wanked out about Logos collecting my data. Its not Logos I'm worried about, nefariously snickering over my Bible study notes in some broom closet or analyzing how to capitalize upon and manipulate the concerns on my prayer list for gobs of company profit. Bob and Dan aren't the ones who might just end up knocking on my door in the wee hours of the night... (at least, I hope not! ;-) ) (But that being said, Bob, if you guys are reading this, please feel free to call ahead... you'd be most welcome! I'll keep the light on for you! I wouldn't want you standing in the dark stairwells here in the middle of the night. It's not safe.)

    But all of this does mean that I do try to limit what I use the Internet for, and how often I connect. And I just don't do my message/lesson notes in Logos, or my prayer list, or other such sensitive kinds of stuff, 'cse I just don't know in whose hands they might end up... and that has zip to do with Logos. That would be very, very foolish of me.


    So again... continued functionality of my existing resources offline is REALLY REALLY important to me.

    Finally, though... and if you want to attribute it to a generational thing, fine... but I just don't want other people's observations/highlights/comments, two cents or whatever showing up on my screen unless I want it to. Yes, some of that has to do with some generational issues, study styles, comfort with the community concept, etc. But FOR ME... I don't like it (any more than when I had used books that someone else had highlighted before I owned it), because highlighting (for example) draws my attention to what SOMEONE ELSE thinks is important or valuable... and that serves as a distraction to me from picking up what the original author wanted me to grasp, or the general flow of his prose, or what GOD might want me to pick up from the text in question. I figure if the original author wanted to emphasize something, he could have used bold print or italics.

    I appreciate that many of you folks like that. God bless you. But please, allow the rest of us to choose whether we want your observations/highlights/comments, two cents or whatever on our screens. I didn't pay for your wisdom, as profound as it might be
    :-)

    So as far as what Bob is talking about... I don't really have a problem with it for those who want it. But do please allow us the fine controls for opting out. There are practical reasons for some of us, philosophical reasons for some of us, ethical concerns for others... but beyond that...


    ... a gentleman always asks.

    It is a token of respect... a sign of a cultured and well-mannered man, in a world that seems to have forgotten what that means.

    Why not err on the side of being considerate? You can thereby avoid giving unnecessary offense, for what seems to be very little effort.

    After all, it's just two little words:


    "May I?"


    Best wishes, as always, Bob!! Love you guys!!!

  • Rene Atchley
    Rene Atchley Member Posts: 325 ✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:


    I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.

    Microsoft never pays me for crash reports ... but I don't mind helping them identify the crashes so that I get fewer of them. In that past few years, I've finally lost the ability to crash MSWord at will.


    Since I use WordPerfect crashing Word isn't a problem for me.