Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond
Logos Bible Software was created in the days of packaged software sold on physical media, before consumers had heard of the Internet. (It was 1991!)
Logos got its first Internet-enabled features in 1995, and over the years Logos has grown to be more and more connected to the Internet. Still, Logos 5 will run without an Internet connection, and users can (and do) have completely offline use of it. But most users are connected to the Internet most/all of the time, and we're designing future features in Logos to take advantage of this.
When you use a product that's delivered via a web site, there are certain assumptions you can safely make about what's being stored on the web servers: everything.
Every click, page view, search, IP address, time of visit, and bit of information typed into the site is stored. At a minimum, the standard "web log" functionality of the web server (standard since the first days of the web) is recording most of this info for every page view, and, since the entire site/application is on a remote server, all the information you type / enter is stored there, too.
Much of this info is recorded many times, at many places. Your web provider probably records and stores this info for months/years (so law enforcement can request it if desired) and the site may feed Google Analytics or another tool a copy of the data in order to get convenient reports/analysis.
People are rarely surprised by this. But it seems people are sometimes surprised, and even upset, to find out that desktop applications are now recording and reporting similar information.
Most desktop applications are, or shortly will be, completely integrated with web services. Even if an application does no explicit data sharing with a web service, simply checking RSS feeds, looking for updates / news / etc. generates web server logs that can be analyzed.
And most applications are explicitly interacting with web services, in order to deliver cloud-connected features, support synchronization between desktop and mobile devices, backup user data, access databases too large to store locally, etc.
Logos Bible Software has been interacting with web services for years. Early on it was simply retrieving news feeds and update notices, but starting with Logos 4 the application became highly integrated with web services.
We no longer think of Logos Bible Software as a stand-alone desktop software package. We think of it as a connected family of desktop and mobile software applications and online web services that help people study the Bible, alone or in community with others.
As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)
But our plan is to increase our use of the Internet to provide better functionality and new features, and we believe this will deliver real value to our users.
Things we do "online" and why:
Logos collects stats on the use of the software. At various times we've collected all kinds of different stats; at the moment Logos 5 collects less information than earlier versions, but we expect to hook up more reporting in the future.
These stats have led to actual improvements in our business and software. For example:
We tracked what percentage of users were on what operating system. This helped us know when we could drop support for old versions of Windows or Mac OS X, affecting few users and allowing us to allocate resources to new work instead of old OS support.
We tracked what percentage of users running the software each day had upgraded to a new version. It's useful to know when 80% of daily users are running Logos 5 -- we can stop promoting the upgrade so heavily. :-) If we weren't tracking the version used each day we'd only know the percentage of Logos 4 purchasers who had purchased Logos 5, and that might include purchasers who no longer use the software, distorting the data.
We tracked search queries. This is such a massive amount of info that the last time we decided to do some serious analysis on search queries we limited it to a single month. We sorted queries by frequency and looked to see how many used boolean operators, could not be parsed by the query engine, etc. We even just browsed them. (The document was a list of queries with counts -- no user identities.) From looking at a large aggregation of search queries we learned that boolean operators aren't used much, and were more likely to mess up a query than be used correctly. This led to the use of all-caps AND and OR as operators, reducing the chance that users would unintentionally include an "and" or "or" that messed up a query that was a phrase. We also saw people were searching for the names of holidays, like "Mothers' Day", which fed into our decision to develop the Preaching Themes database, which is used to tag resources -- and includes Mothers' Day and other holidays as themes.
We tracked which dialog boxes were used. This led to our decision to avoid dialog boxes in Logos 4.
We tracked which books were opened. This led to removing some books from collections, or keeping books in collections that we might otherwise have removed. It also helped us understand how important "smart" defaults were, in light of how strong an association there is between a book being the first reported in a tool and the one more opened.
These stats, when aggregated, offer value to Logos and help us make a better product. Many of them also feed back into features that benefit users:
We can offer "Sort by Recent" in mobile apps because the software stored what you opened when. We can offer the "auto-bookmarks" in the scroll bar of a resource, for quick jumping to a previously visited location. We can open a book on your mobile device to the place you were reading on another device because we sync your last read location. Soon we can indicate when you've read a book completely, eliminating the need to manually add a "read" tag in the library, as some users now do.
Moving forward, we plan to offer "crowd sourced" data that benefits all our users. (You will be able to turn off, or ignore, this crowd-sourced data if you don't want to use it.)
We modeled our star rating for resources on other widely used systems, like Netflix and Amazon.com and hundreds of other sites: you can apply your own star rating to any resource, which overrides any other rating. But if you don't rate something, by default you see the "community" rating. (And you can see both by hovering over the stars.)
Community tags supplement your own tags, and are intended to harness the "community" wisdom about a particular resource, helping you find things more easily and better understand your library.
(Both of these features were fully designed for Logos 4, but didn't make the development cutoff. When we finally shipped them in Logos 5 -- using the specs written for Logos 4 -- many users had already adopted their own meaning/conventions for tags and star ratings, and found the community data a distraction. We will be implementing a way to turn them off if you don't want to see this community info.)
These community features presently treat the entire user base as one community, but the intention has always been to introduce a "users like you" component to the algorithms, much like the way Netflix tries to tell you what their algorithm thinks YOU would rate the movie, not what everyone rated it.
Our hope is that we get enough data -- using voluntarily provided info like "denomination", and sales data like "what books you specifically purchased" -- that we could give you a star rating from "users like you", and weight the community tags in the same way. So a commentary set labeled 5 stars and tagged "reliable" by users of one denomination, say, would be reported that way to others of that denomination who bought similar resources, but might be rated "3 stars" and tagged "conservative" to users of another denomination who had purchased different resources. (The rating would probably differ, but you'd probably see all the tags -- they'd just be different sizes for different users.)
(This kind of recommendation system requires a lot of data in order to work, but with over 1 million users of our platform, we believe we can collect enough data to make it work in the future. And this is something we want to do in response to actual user requests: new customers often ask "what books should I buy?" or "can you recommend a commentary I can trust?" Or, "can you label the commentaries as conservative/liberal, or this-label/that-label?" We can't really do that in a way that's right for everyone, but we might be able to let "everyone" tell us enough that we can tell you what "people like you" think about this or that book. I'm sure this doesn't appeal to our 'power users', but I know it's highly requested by many new users. They want your opinion, power user!)
Popular highlights is another long-planned feature that aggregates many users' data (in this case, extracting the highlighted range, but not the text of notes or even the label of the highlighting style) to report which ranges of books were highlighted by many people. (The 'many' is dynamic -- in some resources it's 5+ users -- the minimum -- and in others there are so many highlights that a range isn't considered popular until 20, 50 or more users have independently highlighted it.)
Aggregated demographic data will be extracted and likely shared with some publishers and authors. I'm not sure how useful this actually is -- will knowing that a book is popular with people who use the Greek NT, or even with people who have identified with a particular denomination, be useful to an author or publisher? Will someone go run an ad in the denomination magazine as a result? I don't know, but I do know that authors and publishers love this kind of info. "Lutheran women read my book on Wednesdays on Android phones, but they all give up after chapter 6. What does it mean?!" :-)
We hope to extract other useful stats from the intersection of feature use reporting and user data. I can imagine doing an analysis to see what words in the Greek NT are most often right-clicked and looked up, or have a Bible Word Study run on them. (And/or which words were the headwords for user-edited Bible Word Study Guides.) From this we might be able to get a list of "words of significant interest", in which we could invest more editorial resources and/or new features. The "Interesting Words" section of the Passage Guide, presently built by statistical analysis of the text, could be informed by statistical analysis of user interaction, too.
In the same way (I'm making stuff up now) we might want to run an analysis of which verses in the Bible have the most user-written note text attached. This might tell us the passages we should be giving the most attention to in future updates of the Faithlife Study Bible, or the Evangelical Exegetical Commentary.
Admittedly, these features would require "looking at synced user data" -- but I hope you can see how "the looking" is done by algorithms and doesn't represent a privacy invasion. In fact, this type of analysis is only useful when it's on "too much data." We need the forest, not a tree, to see the patterns that help us design features and content.
Other ways we'll be introducing "community":
We're lighting up collaborative documents at http://documents.logos.com. This will eventually be enabled for almost every document type.
The "personal" use case is your being able to publish (read-only) or collaborate (shared editing and ownership) documents with any group you'd like. A pastor / professor / teacher could publish notes on a book of the Bible. Students could collaborate on a note document on a textbook. A scholar could collaborate on a highlighting project with a research assistant.
We hope to enable some forms of "community" data editing -- and even remote editorial work for compensation. For example, Logos 5 has some data sets that were created by tagging the biblical text -- we even used our own highlighting tool for some of the work. With collaborative documents, users could choose to join a tagging project on a text that Logos might not otherwise get to. Imagine if referent analysis, speaker labels, word senses, and clause searching were available for the Apostolic Fathers, Josephus, Philo, and all of the Perseus Project. These collaborative/social documents could help us distribute the workload over many contributors, track who made what contribution, and even pay for contributions in Logos credit.
This could allow students to "work for books" (a request we get surprisingly often) and help us offer richer data sets that we might otherwise not soon afford or have time to create.
We plan to make it easier to recommend resources and even to share quotations from resources. You can already tweet or share quotes from books, but in future releases you'll have the option to share a quotation from the book publicly, and resources will have online pages where you can see the publicly shared quotations before buying the resource.
See https://faithlife.com/markbarnes/resources as an example; it is a summary of Mark Barnes' reviews. The disabled tab for "Recommendations" is where I will be able to see all the books Mark has recommended (either publicly, or to a specific group that he and I are co-members of -- so he could recommend a particular book just to his church, or a class). On the "Quotes" tab I would see any quotes from the book that Mark had intentionally shared -- and, if I own the book, I'll be able to jump directly to that location in the book.
(Mark, I hope you don't mind me using you as an example -- you've written a lot of reviews. Thanks!)
We take user privacy very seriously; we offer a number of settings, you have the option to run completely offline, and we follow best practices like not storing your password at all. (That's why our CS reps can't tell or email your password, only reset it -- we literally don't have access to it.)
At the same time, though, we are committed to being a web-based, data-driven platform. We are no longer designing a stand-alone, isolated desktop application. Some planned features will require access to databases too large to deliver to user devices; you'll need web access to use them. We will be listening to our users, responding to their feedback and concerns, but like other web-based platforms, we will not necessarily be offering control over every individual setting. Some things come along with being web-based.
For example, you can choose to keep all your digital photos on your own machine disconnected from the Internet, or you can choose to upload them to Flickr. And at Flickr you may even have some settings about what info is shared with what users, or what permissions your photos are shown with. But Flickr will analyze all the uploaded photos to build a report of what cameras / phones are being used: http://www.flickr.com/cameras/ You can't say "yes, I want my photos stored on your server, but no, don't count them in your stats."
We are very careful and respectful of individual privacy, and we'll be offering some controls/options, but we aren't, for example, going to support "sync my data but don't count me towards the number of Mac OS X users."
The coarse grained control is turning off "Use Internet" in the Program Settings. The more fine-grained controls are still being decided on, and will reflect your input.
I hope this overview is helpful, and that you can appreciate the value that these social / community features add to the Logos platform, and hopefully to your study and investment as well.
Comments
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I am really excited about the ability to share quotes from resources. One thing I find a bit frustrating with Faithlife is that I will share quotes from the Bible and it defaults to the ESV even it I am using a different translation. It would be great to have it respect my translation choice.
I like the social features, the idea of being able to callaborate on documents. I could have used this type of thing is school.
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Bob Pritchett said:
As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)
Bob,
PLEASE continue to allow Logos to function without being connected to the Internet. I don't mind being connected for updates, resource purchases, syncing, etc., but there are many times that I am not connected to the Internet. I don't want to HAVE to be online for Logos to function. This is really an important issue for me.
Thanks,
Ron
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Bob Pritchett said:
We modeled our star rating for resources ... But if you don't rate something, by default you see the "community" rating. ...
Community tags supplement your own tags, and are intended to harness the "community" wisdom about a particular resource...
(Both of these features were fully designed for Logos 4, but didn't make the development cutoff. When we finally shipped them in Logos 5 -- using the specs written for Logos 4 -- many users had already adopted their own meaning/conventions for tags and star ratings, and found the community data a distraction. We will be implementing a way to turn them off if you don't want to see this community info.)
On a quick read of your post this was what I was really looking for. Thank you.
But I would also ask you include a simple way to turn off Popular Highlights, Popular Tags which are equally distracting, and also include Community Notes together with any other shared/mined data you may be planning to introduce (simple does not mean hunting for a resource to disable the information).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Thanks for the update and comments – they let us get a hint of where you’re going
“”We tracked which books were opened””
Did you track which books were hit in the search – often the search summary gives all the data we need for the answer we are looking for? [So they might have been used without being opened]
“”We will be implementing a way to turn them off if you don't want to see this community info.””
Thanks
“”"users like you"””
Good luck – I am one of a kind – I went from Platinum 4 to Platinum 5 and added Capstone. And when I do a major research I want to know what everybody says and every side of the topic.
"denomination"
There are times when I don’t want “users like” me – I want to know what members of some other “denomination” recommend. Will changing our “denomination” setting change what we see? [Or will what we see be determined by our past “”history””]
“”Popular highlights “” need a global off switch – I am not sure I want someone else to show me where the important parts are.
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In many ways I can appreciate the desire and usefulness of gaining huge amounts of research data for various purposes such as marketing, product development, and stream lining support services. Yet when I first saw this feature, in Logos 3 I think, it really turned me off of the product to such an extent as to seriously seek out other products...mostly a waste of time however. Since you have opened the door to this discussion I would simply ask why should I tell you (or your company) anything about the use of this or any other software on my computer? For that matter why should I trust to only stop at peaking under the hood for Logos products either in a specific or general way? Recently I did a bit of research for a national TV rating's company that paid me $5.00 for only a week's worth of journaling in regards to my viewing habits. I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.
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Bob Pritchett said:
I hope this overview is helpful, and that you can appreciate the value that these social / community features add to the Logos platform, and hopefully to your study and investment as well.
Peace, Bob! Yes! Very helpful indeed! Very much appreciated. Some of these concepts and "directions" are truly monumental. You've done well with this overview. Basically this individual (me! *smile* ) concurs and trusts you and your people (colleagues? collaborators? team-mates? staff?)
I must say, Bob! You have assembled and co-ordinated such a wonderful and amazing group of men and women who are part of the Logos Mission! Well-done! Vaya Con Dios! and ... Always Joy in the Lord!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Bob Pritchett said:
We hope to enable some forms of "community" data editing -- and even remote editorial work for compensation. For example, Logos 5 has some data sets that were created by tagging the biblical text -- we even used our own highlighting tool for some of the work. With collaborative documents, users could choose to join a tagging project on a text that Logos might not otherwise get to. Imagine if referent analysis, speaker labels, word senses, and clause searching were available for the Apostolic Fathers, Josephus, Philo, and all of the Perseus Project. These collaborative/social documents could help us distribute the workload over many contributors, track who made what contribution, and even pay for contributions in Logos credit.
[Y]
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Rene Atchley said:
I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.
Microsoft never pays me for crash reports ... but I don't mind helping them identify the crashes so that I get fewer of them. In that past few years, I've finally lost the ability to crash MSWord at will.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob,
I pray that the 'Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond' will be fully Implemented in a different version of Logos. I've invested about $5,000 dollars in Logos and do not support nor want this 'Social / community' direction. If, however, the new design will be implemented in Logos 5, I need to re-think not only the $1,200 dollars pre-pub orders I'm waiting for, but also any future orders.
Thomas
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Hi Thomas
Thomas Jackson said:and do not support nor want this 'Social / community' direction
For clarity would you be able to advise on whether the collection of your data or the display of aggregation of other people's data is the issue for you - or, indeed, something else?
Is it a philosophical or practical in nature?
Hope you can advise on this - it's just not clear to me from your post as to what your concerns really are - and hence how Logos could address them.
Thanks, Graham
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Thanks for the full post, Bob (and for the unexpected mention!). I think only two things are required for meet the vast majority of users' concerns:
- Making sure that having "Send Feedback" set to "None" means that no tracking in done within the desktop app (no search results collected, no highlighting aggregated, and so on). IMO this setting should also mean that a user with this setting should not have their synced documents included in any analysis.
- Allow users to turn of the receiving (or at least the displaying) of community data, without turning off the syncing of their own data. This includes Faithlife Community notes, community ratings/tags, popular highlighting, etc.
I confess I see no need of either of those things myself (the former because I trust you and want Logos to improve, the latter because I can switch them off individually or ignore them), but I think I understand why others might want them.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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It sounds like a great vision, thanks for sharing it Bob. I am on board 100%. I was not a huge fan of Faithlife, community features etc. in the beginning, but I am being won over - I can see the vision of how these types of things will enhance my own study.
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Rene Atchley said:
I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.
I hope you don't use ANY search engine on the Internet - they grab a lot more data about what you are doing than Logos does! Or I hope you don't use any Microsoft products....or Adobe....or browser...or any of a number of other "non community" products. People think only Facebook, Twitter, Flickr and the like are grabbing data, but that's grossly inaccurate. Oh and don't forget your TV viewing preferences, unless you only do over the air (and they collect data too, just not as much), DirecTV, Comcast, and all the other satellite/cable providers are collecting huge amounts of preference/usage data.
The only way to avoid this, as Bob says, is turn off the Internet. It's a connected world now.
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Graham,
It seems to me that the direction Logos is headed is greatly influenced by the philosophical posts on this forum (not the 'bug' fixes). While I respect the opions of others, I prefer that my version of Logos be independent of their input. Again, I do respect you and a few others who post on this forum, but I would like to keep my version of Logos independent of forum posters philosophical inputs.
Thomas
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Thomas Jackson said:
Graham,
It seems to me that the direction Logos is headed is greatly influenced by the philosophical posts on this forum (not the 'bug' fixes). While I respect the opions of others, I prefer that my version of Logos be independent of their input. Again, I do respect you and a few others who post on this forum, but I would like to keep my version of Logos independent of forum posters philosophical inputs.
Thomas
Thanks Thomas
That's helpful.
Appreciated, Graham
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Bob Pritchett said:
The coarse grained control is turning off "Use Internet" in the Program Settings. The more fine-grained controls are still being decided on, and will reflect your input.
Bob, this is something that I and others have been asking for some time, and I want to say thanks.
I doubt that you remember this, but I am in communication with my representatives and senators concerning consumer's privacy. And this is what I have been saying that consumers need to have.
Now, it is not likely that you are thinking of fine-grained controls the same way that I am thinking of fine-grained controls. I believe controls should be very very very very very fine. For an example, I believe that I should have a flag for each note to indicate if it should be synced to your server or not. The same is true when it comes to our prayer requests and everything else.
I also believe that I should be able to exempt my information from being used in your decision process. I believe my privacy is more important than your bottom line, and any mining my data is an invasion of my privacy without my approval.
Again, I wanted to say thanks for providing more security controls in the future.
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Bob,
I am VERY excited about the coming features and your vision for the software! However, I suggest locking this thread before it becomes a very depressing thread like others...
[Y]
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Hi Bob,
Thanks for such detail and clarity on the topic.
Bob Pritchett said:Some things come along with being web-based.
I appreciate this, and I have no problem in Logos not only knowing what my purchases are (as is normal for any vendor), but I also don't mind feedback of a fair degree of usage of the program that helps Logos develop and more appropriately meet and exceed user expectations/needs.
One of my concerns is that if Logos was a new program just introduced onto the market, it would be expected (if not unthinkable not to) that the developer would provide the explicit option for the user to choose whether or not to participate in data collection or feedback (for statistical analysis, or other purposes e.g. to generate community data). As noted on the forum elsewhere, there is some wording in the 'Online Backup' section of the EULA which loosely covers statistical analysis, and states that user's data will not be shared without their permission. But it is not explicit or clear enough, especially with respect to using users' data for other purposes such as to generate community data (although admittedly 'popular highlights' is a pretty tame use of such data). But the main thing is that users don't have an option whether to participate or not in their data or statisics being used by Logos. At present, the only workaround is to turn off internet usage, which is not very practical in general. In principle, I'm not against using users' data for generating statistics or even community
data at times (e.g. popular highlights), but I would simply like the choice as to
whether to do so, or not.Bob Pritchett said:We are very careful and respectful of
individual privacy, and we'll be offering some controls/optionsBut I'm pleased to read this, and look forward to seeing what the options/controls will be.
Personally, I don't mind the vast majority of usage statistics (e.g. what books I open, what I right-click on etc) being gathered, and would allow such if I had the option. But I am concerned at having no option with what I consider to be personal 'value added' data that is over and above my statistically-interesting usage of the application. At a minumum, this includes all 'Documents' (Prayer lists, Notes, Clippings, etc) which contain some very confidential information that I would not like to be viewed or used for any purposes. But it also includes other data such as Guides which can contain notes, or possibly even text that is marked up as significant (highlighting).
While the EULA tells us "Do not store highly confidential information in the software", many users would consider that their Prayer Lists, or Notes for research purposes, come under this description. There seems therefore to be an inherent conflict between what the program allows us to do, and what it tells us we should not do in order to maintain confidentiality. I don't mind syncing for online backup purposes (although I can
imagine those in persecuted countries being concerned about digital eavesdropping, unless it is
encrypted while being transferred), but I consider not having a choice on the use of such data to be a
different thing entirely. I hope I don't sound alarmist on this, since I'm not suggesting that Logos has used, or would use, such data in ways that would cause significant concern for users. I just think that it would be good to have options on confidentiality, and clarity on such matters.Bob Pritchett said:The coarse grained control is turning off "Use Internet" in the Program Settings. The more fine-grained controls are still being decided on, and will reflect your input.
I've posted here because you're looking for input. Here are some options I would be happy with. While one option is a global 'Send Feedback' option of On or Off, which would disable sync etc, but still allow resource downloads and updates, multiple options could be offered such as;
- Allow feedback on 'basic program usage' (e.g. what resources are used, what is right-clicked etc.
- Allow sync of 'user generated data' (Documents, Guides, etc.) for backup purposes only. (While this would normally be enabled/disabled per user account accross all devices, it might be helpful at times to have it as an option on a per device basis, e.g. when many users of the family iPad could see confidential Prayer Lists, a user might like sync enabled on their PC but disabled on their iPad. But that is a very, very, minor issue in comparison to having the option to sync or not at all. I mention it to see what others think on this.)
- Allow analysis and anonymised use of the contents of 'user generated data' e.g. to generate community data (such as popular highlights.
The display of community data doesn't concern me too much, as it is not a privacy issue, but it would be handy to have a global option as to whether to display that or not.
I look forward to seeing what the options/controls will be. Thanks for expanding the conversation and looking for input on the topic.
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Bob,
Thank you so much for sharing this information. I'd like to politely add my input to what some others have posted.
1. Please give us a way to opt-out of all community features in the product. I can see that some might enjoy those features and understand them, but there are many of us who do not need/want this kind of functionality in the website. There should be a way for us to sync our documents to use them on mobile devices without having to use other community features.
2. Please give us a way to opt-out of data collection. I understand the positive side of it for the company and the benefits you gain from it. I also know a lot of us are uncomfortable with intentional, intricate data collection as we use Logos. Yes, I know that Google and many others attempt to be even more invasive. Still, we should have a way to opt out. Right now every company is trying to track everything I do and it's uncomfortable. I don't want my every step observed in Logos though I have no ill will against the company.
3. I'm not entirely clear why you anticipate it being nearly impossible to use Logos in the future without the internet. I can completely understand if you meant that some features would require the internet, but I do not see why the application should require the internet. For example, iTunes was one of the first desktop applications to be deeply connected to the internet, but it lets me disable music recommendations and use my local music all day long without any internet connection. I can choose to use the internet based features or just use my local library. I would hope Logos would remain the same way, not just for the "missionary without internet" but for many of us who many not want be wired every second of our lives. This is already a frustration in the iOS app where certain things won't work unless I have an internet connection. Please don't cripple Logos in the same way.
Thanks for your openness about the direction of Logos.
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John Duffy said:
One of my concerns is that if Logos was a new program just introduced onto the market, it would be expected (if not unthinkable not to) that the developer would provide the explicit option for the user to choose whether or not to participate in data collection or feedback (for statistical analysis, or other purposes e.g. to generate community data).
Really? In my experience most programs do this kind of thing without ever telling you, these days its hard to open a corporate email without them collecting the info of when and where and what you click.
If anyone feels very strongly about this kind of thing, protect yourself at the level of your computer with a decent outgoing firewall. On mac, Little Snitch is excellent and easy to use, giving you fine-grained control over what programs can connect to the internet for, I'm sure someone could recommend an equivalent for PC.
Here's an example of my settings for L5, as you can see, I'm not too fussed about what Logos does with my info or anonymised data:
You're in control of what programs can do on your computer — in many cases you may lose functionality if you block the connections, but that's your prerogative...
For everyone else, thanks for contributing to my reading experience just by the simple act of highlighting your books! I've been loving the community highlights as I've been reading a couple of books; the net effect of many users insight in picking out the key insight on a page, or something that has been particularly well articulated is excellent! Thankyou [:D]
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Yep ... that's what I did last night ... denied internet access to all the Logos4 and Logos5 entries (of course keeping that good boy Libronix). Then pulled my credit card. My account will likely die and so eventually Logos but life is good and I intend to keep it that way.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark Barnes said:
Thanks for the full post, Bob (and for the unexpected mention!). I think only two things are required for meet the vast majority of users' concerns:
- Making sure that having "Send Feedback" set to "None" means that no tracking in done within the desktop app (no search results collected, no highlighting aggregated, and so on). IMO this setting should also mean that a user with this setting should not have their synced documents included in any analysis.
- Allow users to turn of the receiving (or at least the displaying) of community data, without turning off the syncing of their own data. This includes Faithlife Community notes, community ratings/tags, popular highlighting, etc.
I confess I see no need of either of those things myself (the former because I trust you and want Logos to improve, the latter because I can switch them off individually or ignore them), but I think I understand why others might want them.
I agree fully with Mark on these points including his last. I have no problem with Logos collecting this type of data, but I do understand those who would and was extremely turned off by the solution "turn off using the internet".
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Terry Poperszky said:Mark Barnes said:
Thanks for the full post, Bob (and for the unexpected mention!). I think only two things are required for meet the vast majority of users' concerns:
- Making sure that having "Send Feedback" set to "None" means that no tracking in done within the desktop app (no search results collected, no highlighting aggregated, and so on). IMO this setting should also mean that a user with this setting should not have their synced documents included in any analysis.
- Allow users to turn of the receiving (or at least the displaying) of community data, without turning off the syncing of their own data. This includes Faithlife Community notes, community ratings/tags, popular highlighting, etc.
I confess I see no need of either of those things myself (the former because I trust you and want Logos to improve, the latter because I can switch them off individually or ignore them), but I think I understand why others might want them.
I agree fully with Mark on these points including his last. I have no problem with Logos collecting this type of data, but I do understand those who would and was extremely turned off by the solution "turn off using the internet".
I agree this would be a fair resolution. And once again, I myself do not care about my data being analyzed.
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I for one hope that as suggested by Mark that send feedback or equivalent to off really means off. While I understand and respect your vision Bob,the major issue here is that many long term users have invested thousands in resources and due to the deprecation of older engines that did not have these concerns, it seems Logos is forcing users to agree to your data mining desires or lose use. Even if we turn internet off, what happens when we connect to run updates? Doesn't it still sync and data mine? So for someone who truly wants no part of this, they really do lose functionally many features and updates and if you force internet connection in the future all the more.
Many users invested for the purpose of studying the Word of God, not to be a part of a data mining community resource software package. As for measuring things like operating systems can't that be measured via updates? For a better understanding of which resources people like and don't, popular highlights and usage stats a sufficient data sample could be generated from those who are into the community aspect without forcing everyone to take part in the data collection.
For the record there are some comparisons that can be made with Google and search engines, etc, however we have not bought a product from them. Customers have PAID for their products and should not be forced into data collection in regard to Logos Bible Software. From today and going forward at no time should your customers be held hostage in regard to full functionality, if they desire to not take part. So a simple opt out from data collection check box would eliminate the whole debate and make all customers those for and those against satisfied.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.
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Alexander said:
I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.
Most likely the case.
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Alexander said:
I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.
I think that's over simplification. Yes, younger users tends to have less privacy concerns, but that's because they've grown up in a world of eroding privacy. They don't know a world where it's any other way. They have been sold the benefits of it without understanding the negatives.
While there are advantages to data collection, it also has some real downsides. It's reasonable, since many of us are primarily paying to own a collection of resources on our desktop, for Logos to provide a way to opt out of such deep data collection. All of us aren't convinced the benefits of being tracked are worth it. It's fine if people thing differently. If Logos goes all in on this without an opt out, I know it would force me to serious consider moving to alternative Bible software. Just the conversation makes me think twice about investing significantly in more resources until it's clear what the direction of all this will be. Not trying to threaten anything, just express the value of a true desktop application that lets me opt out of things that I don't want to participate in.
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Samuel Clough said:Alexander said:
I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.
I think that's over simplification. Yes, younger users tends to have less privacy concerns, but that's because they've grown up in a world of eroding privacy. They don't know a world where it's any other way. They have been sold the benefits of it without understanding the negatives.
Alexander, What generation do you expect to be bothered? I agree with Samuel that this is an over simplification. Don't know the ages of those with various privacy phobias, but I personally find their arguments to be nonsense less than persuasive.
I am three score and fifteen, and I know many Logos forum members who are near my age who have expressed no objections to Logos' data mining in the way Bob has just described.
Samuel Clough said:If Logos goes all in on this without an opt out, I know it would force me to serious consider moving to alternative Bible software. Just the conversation makes me think twice about investing significantly in more resources until it's clear what the direction of all this will be. Not trying to threaten anything, just express the value of a true desktop application that lets me opt out of things that I don't want to participate in.
I take it, then, that you do not use an Microsoft products.
When I was young—many years ago—the older folk had a saying that is appropriate to you and others who are threatening to take your business aways from Logos over these issues—The called it cutting off your nose to spite you face or throwing out the baby with the bath water.
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I happen to live and work in a country that poses some unique Internet issues. First, in general, where I happen to be located at the moment, Internet access is TERRIBLE... and I think a lot more people than Bob realizes may be in that situation. I just find it hard to believe that nearly everyone has 24/7 high speed Internet access, but maybe that is indeed the case.
The cost of Internet access is also a factor for many of us. Many of us pay by the megabyte, and at a high rate. I don't allow the cost to hinder me too much, but I can say that the quality of the Internet here definitely puts some constraints on my full appreciation/use of Logos. I often am forced to work offline... and it really does concern me that eventually I might not be able to access the functionality of future versions of Logos without a good and continual Internet access being required.
As long as I will be able to use the current incarnation of the engine (even if I can't access the latest slick database), to access my existing library/investment, I'm okay with that I guess. Other people have different interests, and I have no right to hold Logos users back from new features they would find useful (not to be a stick in the mud or a Neanderthal, but as Bob said elsewhere, Logos can already slice and dice about as thoroughly as it can be done. I would think for most users, there comes a point of diminishing returns.... where we are way OVER analyzing the text in a way that was not intended by the original authors, and that it comes ultimately to being counterproductive. Maybe I didn't say that very well... but it just seems like eventually, we have more than enough tools to analyze the text ad nauseum.... I know, I know... that's probably heresy on these forums.... ;-) )
But all of that being said... we really need to have the ability to keep using the software offline... at least to access our existing resources. We have invested a LOT (many of us), and its scary to think that the lights could go out so to speak... not that Logos will fold... but that it COULD become unusable...
A greater issue here where I am is the issue of privacy. ALL internet use is monitored. Visiting certain websites will get you jailed. You have to present your passport at any Internet cafe, which tracks every site you visit and is legally forced to report the same to the KGB (yes, still VERY alive and well here) on a monthly basis. One must be careful what one writes... anything that the president can even consider to be negative or defamatory or impinging upon his reputation or respect will generate a substantial fine and some significant jail time. The best hackers in the world are from here (along with the origin of most viruses), and the school from the former days of the Soviet Union where this was taught still exists, is promoted, and thrives. It is a very constant concern that keystroke/keyboard trackers are on your machine here. And faith-based sites are not considered "innocuous" here.
So I don't get real wanked out about Logos collecting my data. Its not Logos I'm worried about, nefariously snickering over my Bible study notes in some broom closet or analyzing how to capitalize upon and manipulate the concerns on my prayer list for gobs of company profit. Bob and Dan aren't the ones who might just end up knocking on my door in the wee hours of the night... (at least, I hope not! ;-) ) (But that being said, Bob, if you guys are reading this, please feel free to call ahead... you'd be most welcome! I'll keep the light on for you! I wouldn't want you standing in the dark stairwells here in the middle of the night. It's not safe.)
But all of this does mean that I do try to limit what I use the Internet for, and how often I connect. And I just don't do my message/lesson notes in Logos, or my prayer list, or other such sensitive kinds of stuff, 'cse I just don't know in whose hands they might end up... and that has zip to do with Logos. That would be very, very foolish of me.
So again... continued functionality of my existing resources offline is REALLY REALLY important to me.Finally, though... and if you want to attribute it to a generational thing, fine... but I just don't want other people's observations/highlights/comments, two cents or whatever showing up on my screen unless I want it to. Yes, some of that has to do with some generational issues, study styles, comfort with the community concept, etc. But FOR ME... I don't like it (any more than when I had used books that someone else had highlighted before I owned it), because highlighting (for example) draws my attention to what SOMEONE ELSE thinks is important or valuable... and that serves as a distraction to me from picking up what the original author wanted me to grasp, or the general flow of his prose, or what GOD might want me to pick up from the text in question. I figure if the original author wanted to emphasize something, he could have used bold print or italics.
I appreciate that many of you folks like that. God bless you. But please, allow the rest of us to choose whether we want your observations/highlights/comments, two cents or whatever on our screens. I didn't pay for your wisdom, as profound as it might be
:-)So as far as what Bob is talking about... I don't really have a problem with it for those who want it. But do please allow us the fine controls for opting out. There are practical reasons for some of us, philosophical reasons for some of us, ethical concerns for others... but beyond that...
... a gentleman always asks.It is a token of respect... a sign of a cultured and well-mannered man, in a world that seems to have forgotten what that means.
Why not err on the side of being considerate? You can thereby avoid giving unnecessary offense, for what seems to be very little effort.
After all, it's just two little words:
"May I?"
Best wishes, as always, Bob!! Love you guys!!!0 -
MJ. Smith said:Rene Atchley said:
I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.
Microsoft never pays me for crash reports ... but I don't mind helping them identify the crashes so that I get fewer of them. In that past few years, I've finally lost the ability to crash MSWord at will.
Since I use WordPerfect crashing Word isn't a problem for me.
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I see, well I would like to be in-between the denominations Anabaptists and RCC, and be able to say also that I'm critical.
When it comes to citing books, You can see from: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/18568/424963.aspx#424963 that I would really like the Jerusalem Bible from the second half of the '60ies, the 2004 3rd edition British English Good News Translation and the Biblia Sacra iuxta vulgatum versionem. 5th Ed. Other than that I'm pretty content with what Bibles are offered in Logos - it's just that I would rather see that some English Bible would be dropped from the base-packages, for example either The Message (Complete OT/NT), The New Century Version or the Holman Christian Standard Bible (Holman CSB).Bob Pritchett said:Our hope is that we get enough data -- using voluntarily provided info like "denomination", and sales data like "what books you specifically purchased" -- that we could give you a star rating from "users like you", and weight the community tags in the same way. So a commentary set labeled 5 stars and tagged "reliable" by users of one denomination, say, would be reported that way to others of that denomination who bought similar resources, but might be rated "3 stars" and tagged "conservative" to users of another denomination who had purchased different resources. (The rating would probably differ, but you'd probably see all the tags -- they'd just be different sizes for different users.)
I'm looking forward to the new specialized base-packages that are perhaps comming at some point (like You said in http://community.logos.com/forums/p/60280/430475.aspx#430475). I wonder if You could make one for Anabaptists, and/or one with especially much critical scholarship?
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Dominick Sela said:Rene Atchley said:
I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.
I hope you don't use ANY search engine on the Internet - they grab a lot more data about what you are doing than Logos does! Or I hope you don't use any Microsoft products....or Adobe....or browser...or any of a number of other "non community" products. People think only Facebook, Twitter, Flickr and the like are grabbing data, but that's grossly inaccurate. Oh and don't forget your TV viewing preferences, unless you only do over the air (and they collect data too, just not as much), DirecTV, Comcast, and all the other satellite/cable providers are collecting huge amounts of preference/usage data.
The only way to avoid this, as Bob says, is turn off the Internet. It's a connected world now.
Honestly to argue that because everyone else does it justifies Logos doing it (especially as a "christian" company) seems rather a weak argument to me. The discussion that Mr. Pritchard has opened is not about all the tangential debates regarding every drop of personal information being taken from me on a daily basis. It is about a product that appears increasingly to be heavy handed in its demands that I conform to Mr. Pritchard's vision of proper computer use at increasing high prices with a product that data mines every stroke (apparently) that is done in the program. While it is admirable that there is a turn off switch (if that is what it is) in the product can we be assure that a) it works and b) it wont be eliminated in a future release and c) that I can trust a large corporation to properly handle private use of their product. Surely what the books that are bought through Logos would never get back to denominational leaders so that a concern about "un-godly" thoughts might be sneaking into their pastors...that would never happen... you know just trust Logos and their corporate partners.
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Jon said:
You're in control of what programs can do on your computer — in many cases you may lose functionality if you block the connections, but that's your prerogative...
For everyone else, thanks for contributing to my reading experience just by the simple act of highlighting your books! I've been loving the community highlights as I've been reading a couple of books; the net effect of many users insight in picking out the key insight on a page, or something that has been particularly well articulated is excellent! Thankyou
Peace, Jon! What a very pleasant post! Indeed! It is I who should thank you! *smile* Of course I agree with you! [:D]
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Jon,
I checked out the site for the software you recommended. Looks promising. To be honest, though, I'm like most here probably in that I'm not tremendously computer savy in this area... and I need to be. The screen shot is helpful... but how difficult is this for a knucklehead user like myself? I start seeing port numbers and such and my eyes start to glaze over. I'm afraid of blocking something that must not be blocked, and allowing something that really SHOULD be blocked. Any comments re: how easy it may be to learn this software?
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Samuel Clough said:Alexander said:
I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.
I think that's over simplification. Yes, younger users tends to have less privacy concerns, but that's because they've grown up in a world of eroding privacy. They don't know a world where it's any other way. They have been sold the benefits of it without understanding the negatives.
While there are advantages to data collection, it also has some real downsides. It's reasonable, since many of us are primarily paying to own a collection of resources on our desktop, for Logos to provide a way to opt out of such deep data collection. All of us aren't convinced the benefits of being tracked are worth it. It's fine if people thing differently. If Logos goes all in on this without an opt out, I know it would force me to serious consider moving to alternative Bible software. Just the conversation makes me think twice about investing significantly in more resources until it's clear what the direction of all this will be. Not trying to threaten anything, just express the value of a true desktop application that lets me opt out of things that I don't want to participate in.
Simplification? Yes. Overly so? I don't think so. I am younger but, as my post stated, am conservative about my private information and I understand both the pro's and con's of both. In broad brush strokes, I have found that those who are born post techno boom have less of a concern about the issue than others. There are some in both groups that don't line up perfectly but I would suggest the generalization holds true for most folks. As others have pointed out, if you are really concerned with data mining you are going to either have to make Fort Knox your network provider or simply drop off the net. Again, my 2c's.
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Sometimes I think that folks are too
paranoid about there online privacy.I mean it's not like people lose
their jobs, or marriages by what they post online. And it's not like
some Christians are hunted down and imprisoned or killed for what the
authorities have discovered on the internet..."As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Thank you for all the thoughtful feedback. Some further thoughts:
We don't plan to take away the ability to read books offline without the Internet, and we haven't disabled Logos 3 or 4 or your ability to use older versions of the software. Some future new features, though, will need the web -- the data will be there, and won't fit locally.
If you have information / data / comments that would cause enormous damage if disclosed, or risk your freedom in an oppressive country, do not put it on a computer. I don't mean don't put it in Logos, I mean don't put it in digital form, on any device, anywhere. There's no adequate digital protection, and you should plan for everything you type to be disclosed. Someday people will, if only for idle entertainment purposes, write software that you can plug a thrown-away laptop or hard drive into and upload it all to a massive search engine in the cloud. This isn't a "Logos-specific" issue. This is common sense. And your biggest risk isn't even our server being hacked -- it's a trojan, a virus, a key-logger, losing your smart phone, walking away from your logged-in computer someone else has physical access to, etc.
The "I have confidential stuff in my notes" theme is a red herring. If it's that secret, you shouldn't type it into your computer -- in any application. Just ask the now-former director of the CIA -- someone who ought to know how to keep a secret. You don't know enough / can't do enough to keep a digital secret.
Again, I'm not saying this as an excuse for why you shouldn't care about Logos' cloud-based backup, statistical data mining, etc. This is just general good advice.
With that said, we are listening and will improve our controls here. But I do think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill; if you use a credit card, shop in a store with surveillance cameras, have a driver's license and car with a license plate, have a bank account, use the Internet, or visit any licensed healthcare professional, you are being tracked far more, about far more personal things than anything Logos is doing. This isn't an excuse that we shouldn't care about your concerns -- we should -- but I feel like threats to stop doing business with us over this are a little unreasonable. We're at least talking to you about it! Your grocery store didn't ask you before data mining transactions (even cash transactions!) to learn that people who buy peanut butter also buy jelly and bread, and you probably didn't care.
In other words, unless you used a multi-tier anonymizing VPN system to post your objections here, (or, better yet, walked up to me on the street wearing dark glasses and a hat without carrying a cell phone and whispered them in my ear), you've got bigger privacy issues to worry about than Logos... :-)
One more future feature that touches on this:
We hope to offer some "all you can eat" pricing models in the future. Much like Netflix, where for $9 you can watch an unlimited number of videos each month from a large pool of content, we'd like to offer a subset of our books in an "all you can read" subscription. To pay royalties to the copyright holders, though, we need to know how much each resource is used. (Copyright holders want to know that if their content is the most used, they get the most royalties. Books in the pool that don't get read in a month don't get royalties that month.) We need some stats collection in order to deliver this feature, and you couldn't participate in this without your stats being recorded.
P.S. Please don't walk up and whisper at me on the street. It would freak me out... :-)
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EmileB said:
how difficult is this for a knucklehead user like myself?
Hi Emile, it is not as complicated as it looks from that screenshot which is the main configuration window. In practice, how it works is that when a program on your computer tries to make a connection to the internet it pops up an alert like this:
It sounds like it would be very useful in your context, with your security concerns. At first when you install it you'll get lots of alerts popping up as you use all your normal programs and discover that they frequently connect online for all sorts of reasons. After that initial stage (of setting Forever Allow or Deny — it takes this input and generates the rules you see on the screen shot in my previous post) it will only popup for something that's new and doesn't match any existing rules. If something pops up thats unexpected it could well be some kind of malware/trojan/logger and you can block it from phoning home.
Edit: Bob, your example of normal shops data mining reminded me of this article (better not go to a department store if you're worried about privacy)
:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/0 -
EmileB said:
But please, allow the rest of us to choose whether we want your observations/highlights/comments, two cents or whatever on our screens. I didn't pay for your wisdom, as profound as it might be :-)
So as far as what Bob is talking about... I don't really have a problem with it for those who want it. But do please allow us the fine controls for opting out. There are practical reasons for some of us, philosophical reasons for some of us, ethical concerns for others... but beyond that...
... a gentleman always asks.
It is a token of respect... a sign of a cultured and well-mannered man, in a world that seems to have forgotten what that means.
Why not err on the side of being considerate? You can thereby avoid giving unnecessary offense, for what seems to be very little effort.
After all, it's just two little words:
"May I?"
Best wishes, as always, Bob!! Love you guys!!!
Emile,
Thanks for reminding us of the basics of civilization, as well as alerting us to the perils many Logos users around the world face.
I don't question the motives of Logos. I think that Logos wants to produce the best product and study system for its customers. I think it is too easy to get bogged down in all the technical configurations and forget the big picture at times.
Logos does need to remember who's the boss. It is ultimately the customers' choice. Logos needs to remember its servant character. I think that Bob's fairly frequent posts and inquiries show that he does value the input of his customers.
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The issue at hand isn't whether individuals should have the right to privacy in a world eternally digitized. Rather, it is about paying a company for a product/service that implies that loose privacy boundaries are just what it means to do business and live in the world today. It is sort of like saying why shouldn't the govt. have access to all of our financial records if we have nothing to hide. If the future with Logos is to give more free data then the answer is to give Logos less of everything...which for me is to pay someone to have my rented license at this point. I wonder if Logos is ever bought by another E-book company...say Amazon...if we will all be setting around talking about how Red Herrings are nothing more than a bad bird experience.
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The one Jon shows is pretty straight-forward and easy. Mine also allows access denial by direction, and also within the PC itself.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dear Bob
Thank you again for stepping in and providing more feedback and comments on this topic. I do have some comments:
Bob Pritchett said:When you use a product that's delivered via a web site, there are certain assumptions you can safely make about what's being stored on the web servers: everything.
Every click, page view, search, IP address, time of visit, and bit of information typed into the site is stored. At a minimum, the standard "web log" functionality of the web server (standard since the first days of the web) is recording most of this info for every page view
There really needs to be made clear the distinction between information such as logs which are recorded on web servers as a result of people browsing a website anonymously where there is usually, and rightly, no Personally Identifying Information (PII) being (able to be) stored; and information as to what users do on their own computers which, obviously, will include Personally Identifying Information.
Logos has, if not the right, then the ability, as the server system belongs to them, to collect information about how I interact with Logos' web servers via a web browser. It does not — automatically — have the right to reach into my computer and collect private and personally identifying information of any manner.
Bob Pritchett said:and, since the entire site/application is on a remote server, all the information you type / enter is stored there, too.
I'm sorry, but that simply is not factually correct. Who in your organisation is telling you that? Logos 5 is not a web application — as in a HTML web browser based application, it is not a 'Software as a service (SaaS) application — it is a local desktop (runs on user's computer) application — which is web enabled. There is a very big, and significant, difference.
What… are you saying that the entire Logos 5 application runs on your servers and every keystroke I enter is recorded on your servers? Not correct. Logos may be trapping and recording everything I do and sending it to Logos servers (and this is something I want clarified by Logos) but it is not doing it via a SaaS design, it is (is it?) doing it via saving everything locally and 'phoning home'.
Bob Pritchett said:But it seems people are sometimes surprised, and even upset, to find out that desktop applications are now recording and reporting similar information.
You simply cannot equate anonymous web browsing with private use of a computer, it surprises and alarms me that you make statements like that. Again...
Logos has, if not the right, then the ability as the server system belongs to them, to collect information about how I interact with Logos' web servers. It does not — automatically — have the right to reach into my computer and collect private and personally identifying information of any manner.
I am going to give you a fictional example (obviously this does not refer to you in reality):
Let's say that someone, from your home Internet IP address, browses an online sex store and orders a sex toy. Obviously the web server is going to record in its logs the fact that a computer — at your Internet IP address — has accessed the server. The person browsing can't do anything about that, anyway the information has no PII information stored in it. That is very different from the purchased sex toy having some recording device surreptitiously embedded in it which records all information about — how it is used, and how often, and when (to improve the product naturally) and which then uploads that information back to the manufacturer along with using WiFi location sensing to do geolocation to cross-reference it back to a purchaser. Is that OK? The company simply wants to improve their product, they have a right to so don't they?
I believe we would all obviously say no — and I use this (shocking to Christians) example to deliberately shock us all out of complacency on the whole question of privacy. Also BTW, the person browsing the sex store from your Internet IP address… it was the next door neighbour who had hacked into your WiFi.
Bob Pritchett said:As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)
Why? Once someone has downloaded (or used a DVD) and installed Logos 5 and is using it, why must it phone home? What functionality is limited — apart from community features — in their use of the product if the application does not have a constantly open Internet link to Logos' servers? Logos 5 is not an… online gaming program… which must have a constantly connected Internet connection to function. It is a Bible study program (with great features - no one is saying otherwise) for, primarily, personal Bible study. Put another way, if a person's Internet connection went down they could still use Logos 5 for the purpose for which it is marketed, sold and purchased — that is Bible study. However if the software constantly crashes then it is not fulfilling the purpose for which it is marketed, sold and purchased.
Also, again, there needs to be made the distinction between the application doing (beneficial to the user) things like:
a) checking for new software/resources on startup; saving documents and layouts
versus
b) constantly uploading (in real time?) everything the user is doing, extending now beyond statistical use, to specific informational use.
Option a) simply requires occasional Internet connections between the application and Logos servers.
On the point of the Logos software gathering information and Internet use can I please have clarification between these two settings:
1) Send Feedback — and within feedback the differences between All; Anonymous & None
2) Use Internet — especially what does "various features" mean?
It seems to me that you are inextricably linking the two options — can't, aren't they already, mutually exclusive? I would see the information gathering part being in 'feedback' and the user benefit functions being in 'Use Internet'.
Also, with respect to where information is anonymised, if it is, is it anonymised on the Logos user's machine or once it gets to Logos' servers?
What impact does all this Internet connectivity to Logos' servers have to the users' Logos application? I ask this because in the process of helping fellow Logos users on the forum and looking at log files I see a number of connection issues to Logos servers (not clear if it is on the users' side or Logos side) resulting sometimes even in the application crashing — which is obviously not desirable or welcome.
I sort of get the feeling that you are saying, to paraphrase, "well we are already gathering, and using, heaps of private and personal information on you already — you'll just have to live with it." Actually we don't.
Logos really needs to declare where it stands with respect to user privacy issues:
— on the side of entities like Google / Facebook / online advertisers whose stated aim is to gather as much Personally Identifying Information on people as possible, often illegally, or
— on the side of entities who have a basic principle & position of respecting people's privacy and using those principles as a 'guiding light' when deciding how to interact with and use customers' personal information.
Also Logos needs to be very careful with its' privacy position with regards European users. The European Union is not as lax as the US with respect to various aspects of computers, the Internet and privacy — as companies like Google and Facebook have found out to their financial discomfort.
Bob Pritchett said:and we follow best practices like not storing your password at all. (That's why our CS reps can't tell or email your password, only reset it -- we literally don't have access to it.)
Logos has to store something on passwords, otherwise users could not log in. What I believe you mean is, following common computing practices, you don't store the actual password string but a hash of the password — just to be precise.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Thomas Jackson said:
Again, I do respect you and a few others who post on this forum, but I would like to keep my version of Logos independent of forum posters philosophical inputs.
Isn't this *your* philosophical input? Logos is not going to create a version of the software for each relatively unique philosophical preference. Bob has clearly articulated his philosophical premises for upcoming versions of Logos - nearly ubiquitous connectedness with very few and coarse-grained exceptions.
Donnie
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[Y] well put!Bob Pritchett said:Thank you for all the thoughtful feedback. Some further thoughts:
We don't plan to take away the ability to read books offline without the Internet, and we haven't disabled Logos 3 or 4 or your ability to use older versions of the software. Some future new features, though, will need the web -- the data will be there, and won't fit locally.
If you have information / data / comments that would cause enormous damage if disclosed, or risk your freedom in an oppressive country, do not put it on a computer. I don't mean don't put it in Logos, I mean don't put it in digital form, on any device, anywhere. There's no adequate digital protection, and you should plan for everything you type to be disclosed. Someday people will, if only for idle entertainment purposes, write software that you can plug a thrown-away laptop or hard drive into and upload it all to a massive search engine in the cloud. This isn't a "Logos-specific" issue. This is common sense. And your biggest risk isn't even our server being hacked -- it's a trojan, a virus, a key-logger, losing your smart phone, walking away from your logged-in computer someone else has physical access to, etc.
The "I have confidential stuff in my notes" theme is a red herring. If it's that secret, you shouldn't type it into your computer -- in any application. Just ask the now-former director of the CIA -- someone who ought to know how to keep a secret. You don't know enough / can't do enough to keep a digital secret.
Again, I'm not saying this as an excuse for why you shouldn't care about Logos' cloud-based backup, statistical data mining, etc. This is just general good advice.
With that said, we are listening and will improve our controls here. But I do think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill; if you use a credit card, shop in a store with surveillance cameras, have a driver's license and car with a license plate, have a bank account, use the Internet, or visit any licensed healthcare professional, you are being tracked far more, about far more personal things than anything Logos is doing. This isn't an excuse that we shouldn't care about your concerns -- we should -- but I feel like threats to stop doing business with us over this are a little unreasonable. We're at least talking to you about it! Your grocery store didn't ask you before data mining transactions (even cash transactions!) to learn that people who buy peanut butter also buy jelly and bread, and you probably didn't care.
In other words, unless you used a multi-tier anonymizing VPN system to post your objections here, (or, better yet, walked up to me on the street wearing dark glasses and a hat without carrying a cell phone and whispered them in my ear), you've got bigger privacy issues to worry about than Logos... :-)
One more future feature that touches on this:
We hope to offer some "all you can eat" pricing models in the future. Much like Netflix, where for $9 you can watch an unlimited number of videos each month from a large pool of content, we'd like to offer a subset of our books in an "all you can read" subscription. To pay royalties to the copyright holders, though, we need to know how much each resource is used. (Copyright holders want to know that if their content is the most used, they get the most royalties. Books in the pool that don't get read in a month don't get royalties that month.) We need some stats collection in order to deliver this feature, and you couldn't participate in this without your stats being recorded.
P.S. Please don't walk up and whisper at me on the street. It would freak me out... :-)
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Patrick S. said:
There really needs to be made clear the distinction between information such as logs which are recorded on web servers as a result of people browsing a website anonymously where there is usually, and rightly, no Personally Identifying Information (PII) being (able to be) stored; and information as to what users do on their own computers which, obviously, will include Personally Identifying Information.
Your premise isn't completely accurate. Depending on the authentication scheme and the configured log record format for the web site in question, an authenticated user's ID is typically logged in a normal web access log.
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:Patrick S. said:
There really needs to be made clear the distinction between information such as logs which are recorded on web servers as a result of people browsing a website anonymously where there is usually, and rightly, no Personally Identifying Information (PII) being (able to be) stored; and information as to what users do on their own computers which, obviously, will include Personally Identifying Information.
Your premise isn't completely accurate. Depending on the authentication scheme and the configured log record format for the web site in question, an authenticated user's ID is typically logged in a normal web access log.
Donnie
Yes, perhaps if a person is logged into a server, but that is, for the purposes of this discussion, a side point.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Bob Pritchett said:
As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)
I wished this was more than just a 'concession'. I wished it was part of the vision of Logos.
For some of those who are taking the Gospel out, they're probably about 10 years behind the rest of the world internet connectivity wise. The people who go to places like this accept it as part of the job. It's what they sign up for and in general they don't expect the world to cater to them. They know they often straddle two worlds in many areas... one of them being technology. They know the developed world can't wait up for them and would not expect a company like Logos to hurt its ability to innovate and to bless the church at large. However, it would be nice if it would be than a concession. It would be nice if it was a vision to do what it can without hurting its business model to support those in these sorts of situations.
When big resource updates in the early days of Logos 4 were being rolled out on things like the interlinears, it killed us. The problem was that the software worked just fine, but if you needed to buy a small resource of 20mb, you could not do so until you downloaded all the updates. It was physically impossible to leave your computer hooked up for enough weeks and months to get them all. Myself and a few others pleaded for regular DVD media updates. After time we got updates, but the weeks it took after they were released to get out here was an eternity when all we needed was a 20mb book. Am I complaining? No, it is a cost that comes with the job.
In the plus column, even in Africa we have seen significant changes in the last five years with internet connectivity. Huge changes. This will continue to happen and some of this is becoming less and less of an issue. Still problematic, still expensive, still lots of places you can't get connectivity, but to be able to get the latest resources for a project is so worth it. So I would not want to go back. (Even while typing this post, my internet connection has completely failed. I'll have to copy and save my message offline for posting later) I am finding that I run Logos 5 more and more offline because I think it gets a bit stroppy when it has a number of failed attempts to sync with our poor internet.
On that note, the only thing I would plea is that as long as Logos sees the possibility to continue to extend this concession to the missionary with the solar panel, that it pays close attention to the crash logs they submit from these scenarios to test Logos concepts and software code. If you run a private beta, ask a few to participate. What works well in the lab and in the US, is totally different here. I would argue if your code will hold up here, it will hold up anywhere...
One thing for the record though... we don't use solar panels. We use mice powered generators and we're still using Intel 8088 turbo processors with MSDOS 5.0. We just got a 2400 baud modem and are loving the new speeds over the old 300 we just retired!
Seriously, God bless you guys and all that you are doing for the church. You are popularizing Bible software and this can only be a good thing for all. We certainly have some cool tools for Bible study and I am deep gratitude for the ability to carry a reference library with me. It is one of the most precious things I own.
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Bob,
It seems that I did not make myself clear as to my objection to the ‘Social / community’ direction Logos is planning. My objection has nothing to do with privacy concerns. I did not purchase Logos for social / community use. I will not debate my position because I used my own resources when I purchased this product. If Logos plans to offer the ‘Social / community’ features in a Logos 6 or higher version, I have no objections to the new direction. I will, however, reconsider future purchases until I can get a clearer understanding as to how the new direction will be implemented.
Thomas
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Alexander said:
I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue.
This may be an aspect of it but I also think that there are 2 distinct issues here:
- The analysis of our data by Logos, here I tend to agree that there is no violation of my privacy and accept that this may lead to useful ideas and help others. So in principle I'm OK with this as long as the tasks that do the data collection on my PC are designed so that they do not interfere with the programs performance and responsiveness.
- The access, storage and presentation of this data, here I personally want a global default set to off and I'm waiting to be able to turn off the community ratings and tags. Might be nice to know that it is there if I want it but I really do not want this data stored on my PC or being referenced on line in a way that slows my PC down.
This may be an age thing but as far as I am concerned there would need to be clearly documented and agreed standards for the community rating and tag features before I would consider using them. Even if we set aside the denominational/theological challenges of this star ratings, whilst widely used, are incredibly subjective and tagging is incredibly personal and difficult to agree on. Get a group of us in a room for an hour and we would struggle to decide whether the correct format for the tag for a book that we have read is:
- Read
- READ
- read
- Some other equivalent i.e. Completed, Finished, etc.
- An abbreviation i.e. Rd, RD, rd, etc.
In a sensible sized group where we were committed to working together we might get an agreement but finding a system that works for 1 million users will be difficult.
I appreciate the vision that Bob has for the Logos community but sat here in the UK using Logos to help me pastor a Church here I really don't want the distraction that comes from a set of information that is of dubious value to me. I appreciate that this might be harsh, and possibly a bit 'spiritual' sounding, but I'm really not interested in what other people think is interesting I'm more concerned in finding what God says is interesting and I personally do not need a lot of other voices crowding His out.
As I have said, take my data, make it anonymous, and display it for those who want it but PLEASE let me turn off globally what I see as a pointless distraction.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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'the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection' is just one of Bob's playful exagerations. But his business model will be interesting.
We live in a fairly upscale community and most of my 'rich-friends' are backing off their monthly costs ... TV, phone, internet. Not sure why since the cost isn't that big a deal. We already moved to pre-paid phones, and now are dumping our WIFI supplier. The only impediment was Logos and Bob's helped out with that with his missive yesterday.
I'm no prophetess (we're from Ephesus, not Corinth of course), but looks to me big whopper downloads constantly isn't going to last for long. What with transmission companies raising their prices as quickly as possible.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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