When was first Gospel written and what was it?

Ronald, you can STILL find 'careful and scholarly modern criticism' today that applies those dates (the Luke one is curious). I assume you're wanting a broad discussion on the plus's and minus's supporting the various views. Almost inevitably you have to read each gospel's commentaries (plural).

Regarding Mark, from a mathematical case (syntax pattern sequencing), the early chapters appear to precede Matthew, but the later chapters appear to come from Matthew (i.e. an update to or by 'Mark').

In the last few days my own interest in the question has perked up having run into several clear reference to 'writings' and being referenced as 'the Gospel' and 'the Gospel of the Lord' in the apostolic fathers. Unfortunately some of what's associated with that 'Gospel' isn't found in 'our' gospels.

I am reading Many Infallible Proofs by Pierson and he states:

The exact year of the production of each of the four gospels cannot be
fixed. But the most careful and scholarly modern criticism puts the date
of St. Matthew’s record at about 38 A. D., and his record of this
prophecy is the fullest, as well as the first. Mark wrote A. D., 67 to
69. Luke A. D. 63. John A. D. 95.

I thought I had always read that Mark was considered to be the first gospel written and its date to be around 50AD. Yet Pierson states that modern scholarship (1885) identifies Matthew to be the first gospel written and in 38AD.

Anyone know of any Logos resources that can address when Biblical scholars change opinions and for what reason?

Thanks.

I suppose Streeter's The Four Gospel had a large impact in convincing scholarship (quite rightly in my opinion) that Luke and Matthew are have used Mark and are consequently posterior to Mark. The older view was based upon Papias' statements, but these only concerned a Hebrew or Aramaic version which must have preceded our much fuller Greek Matthew.

I don't recall coming across the 50 AD date, even among Evangelicals, for Mark--the standard view places it around 69/70. There is recent monograph by Crossley (available in Logos) that puts forward a good case for a date in the early 40s (and Crossley is an agnostic, and not a Christian).

tom

Anyone know of any Logos resources that can address when Biblical scholars change opinions and for what reason?

Almost any NT Bible introduction book has information on this topic. For an example, I know Exploring the New Testament, vol. 1: Gospel and Acts (http://www.logos.com/product/28227/new-testament-studies-bundle), talks about dating the gospels.

It all gets down to this (IMHO) - while we have several theories, we truly do not know.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437380#Comment_437380

It all gets down to this (IMHO) - while we have several theories, we truly do not know.

That truly is the bottom line. It is always a matter of interpretation and speculation.

You are really talking about a miniscule amount of time from the actual events to the writing of the Gospels, historically speaking. It was no more than 40 to 50 years at most, and that is pretty current for ancient events. There was little time for the elaborate theories long oral tradition or evolving and synthesized texts to develop. There were eye witnesses still around when the Gospels were written.

What is significant to me in dating the New Testament documents is the apparent lack of any knowledge of the destruction of the temple, and the assumption that readers are familiar with temple activities. The destruction of the temple would have been a heck of an argument to be used in a book like Hebrews, for example. Makes me lean toward early dating.

But Tom is 100% correct that we truly do not know.

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437388#Comment_437388

We inevitably bring a lot of our own expectations, assumptions and culture to the question and often forget about or fail to sufficiently understand the original context in which the Gospel was spread. Probably none of us can expect to fully grasp the context and circumstances surrounding the development of the written Gospel.

Following Pentecost the apostles went out in different directions to spread the Gospel "to the ends of the earth". No one waited for anyone else to assemble a written copy of the whole Story. By the time the churches got around to assembling a written Gospel they were doing so in different local contexts having received the stories from their different sources and there was likely limited comparison except between churches in reasonably proximity.

John in his old age even reminds us that there were more stories than anyone has ever written down. It is entirely possible that individual stories and groups of stories were written down well before what we now consider to be an entire Gospel book was assembled as such. John's Gospel looks like it is a (relatively late) attempt to write down many of the stories that others had not included. The passage in John's Gospel about the woman caught in the act of adultery is an interesting clue that there may have been individual stories written seperately that eventually no one knew who had written them (it being not part of the earliest manuscripts of John's Gospel). It is entirely possible that we are missing many of the stories that were originally spread verbally. The bottom line I think is that what we have received as the Gospel stories is sufficient and we do not need to worry that we may be missing something absolutely critical.

I totally agree with Michael that one key clue to dating is the destruction of Jerusalem. The Romans saw this Jewish revolt as key to keeping their Empire under control and could not afford to let anyone think they would get away with what the Jews were doing in their rebellion. It was a key piece of Roman propaganda that was certainly well spread throughout the Empire and beyond about the fate of Jerusalem and its Temple and hence a pointer to anyone else who might have rebellion on their agenda. Not mentioning or alluding to it is a good clue that it had not happened at the time of writing as it represented an apocalypse and the end of an era for the Jews and the system of Temple worship. The Romans made sure everyone everywhere knew about it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437425#Comment_437425

I would also point out how careful the New Testament Church was in accepting books as authentic scripture, and how carefully Jews guarded their sacred texts. It was hard for a book to become accepted by the Church, as evidenced by the many spurious books that were rejected.

As for the idea that various manuscripts were synthesized, that is hard for me to believe without some real manuscript evidence. When you think that the Dead Sea Scrolls pushed back the oldest manuscript of Isaiah about 1,000 years from what we had, yet there was practically no change in the book's content, you see how careful the Jews were with their sacred literature. Apparently the church was equally careful. And again, the time frame is historically miniscule. Certainly not long enough for the original copies to be rejected and replaced in every day use. Just think how resistant people today are to new translations of the Scripture. Many people will never move beyond versions that are four centuries old!

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437432#Comment_437432

Totally agree that there was a lot of care taken about accepting books as scripture - this seems to have applied to what the church as a whole took to be includable in what was understood to be scripture, which focussed primarily on what was written by or on behalf of those who had been eye witnesses.

We do know that there was other material in circulation and accepted as genuine but not as scripture, examples being letters from the church fathers etc. We also se from the Dead Sea scolls that the Qumran community likely accepted as scripture things that were either lost to or not considered important by the early church. (Psalm 151 might be an example of such).

It is unlikely that individual stories written down by individual church communities would have preserved and become available as real manuscript evidence as they would have had the priority of local sermon notes rather than scripture and would be relatively unimportant once a more complete book of them had been assembled and not likely to have been individually copied beyond their first edition.

Not sure what type of evidence it would take to prove or disprove that manuscripts might have been synthesized from components at any point.
John 7:53-8:11 might be an interesting case to bring out some ideas on that point.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437452#Comment_437452

The kind of evidence that is used in dating the gospels is not all of the same objective value. On the one hand, quotations of the gospels in other (datable) sources make them anterior to these sources. Secondly, one may or may not accept as reliable the traditions (stories) that were passed down that feature this or that gospel and -- if historically reliable -- provide insight into their dating.

The destruction of the temple is frequently used as a key event that, if a gospel was written thereafter, would have affected it. There is quite a bit of speculation involved in this kind of argument. It may be right but is not conclusive.

Finally, unlike epistles that can be compared against a reconstructed (not without its difficulties) chronology of Acts, the writing of the gospels (unlike the content of the gospels) are not historical events that are featured elsewhere in the NT. The content of the epistles reflects Jesus' teaching and could attest the prior existence of the gospels. For instance, James and the Sermon on the Mount. However, it is also possible that the teachings of the Lord were known and circulated in other media than the gospels we currently have prior to their standardization and canonization.

Bob

The exact year of the production of each of the four gospels cannot be
fixed. But the most careful and scholarly modern criticism puts the date
of St. Matthew’s record at about 38 A. D., and his record of this
prophecy is the fullest, as well as the first. Mark wrote A. D., 67 to
69. Luke A. D. 63. John A. D. 95.

One significant problem with dealing with the "date" of a particular gospel is the definition of what is meant by "date" and which early version one discusses. It is probable (certain??) that each gospel circulated in oral form(s) well before the initial version(s) were committed to writing. As oral tradition it was subject to change, of which we have no tangible evidence. Then again, even early written manuscripts were subject to editing. Certainly if an apostle were to read one and assert that "it didn't happen that way" the manuscript would have been changed.

The only evidence we have (mostly) are documents that date to 250-350 AD (BCE) there are a few fragments that might be older. Those are the only "dates" that we can take as fixed, but they have nothing to do with the date of origin for the text. It is possible that there was at least some cross over of text from document to document giving rise to problems deciding which came "first".

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437458#Comment_437458

Robert ... sure you don't want to edit that last paragraph?

Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437468#Comment_437468

The Dead Sea Scrolls discoveries included several documents that could be dated no later than 68 AD which include (you will have to weigh the argument/counter argument for yourself) portions of the Gospel of Mark. It's all fragments but if it is reliable, it would put Mark at a vary early date. The unfortunate part about dating text is the amount of bias. If any scientist or researcher tell you they are free of bias, run the other direction. We simply do not have iron clade guaranteed proof one way or another as to the exact dating. I personally find early dates the most compelling but again, some of that is bias.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437820#Comment_437820

Thanks for all the replies.

By the way, earlier this year Daniel Wallace reported that a first century manuscript of Mark has been found. http://www.csntm.org/

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437458#Comment_437458

It is probable (certain??) that each gospel circulated in oral form(s) well before the initial version(s) were committed to writing.

I am not at all convinced that is probable, much less certain.

If you mean that the Gospel events were told and preached, well of course. If you mean the Gospel of Mark was memorized and passed around for years before it was written, well, why? Did Mark, or whoever wrote it, have to learn to write before putting it down? And for how long? The time frame is historically miniscule, and the first Christians already had sacred writings from the OT. Why would they not write down the Gospels? The early church was writing letters, etc.

Also, the assumption that oral tradition is routinely subject to change does not reflect the care given to sacred oral tradition by many cultures, where such things are memorized with great care to the last syllable, and to change a syllable is taboo.

Even more so than modern Masonic rituals.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437886#Comment_437886

I've always wondered what 'oral' meant.

The 'apostolic fathers' appear to be recognized 'leaders' of the church in the late 1st century and early 2nd century, but really have trouble even remembering that 'the Lord' (their words, so they indeed know about him!) had quite a few statements specific to the issues they were trying to solve. They're far quicker to reach into the LXX, and local traditions for their points. It's only decades later that people finally remember something Jesus said. (Not implying a late date to the gospels).

Which .... for the curious, can we recommend https://www.logos.com/product/3047/the-new-testament-in-the-apostolic-fathers . A very good (though dated) resource.

Bob

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437468#Comment_437468

Robert ... sure you don't want to edit that last paragraph?

Not really. As I said we have some fragments that may be older. I was thinking of the AD68 fragments of John. I was unaware of the Qumran fragment, which is older. The 7Q5 fragment is evidence that two verses of Mark existed no later than 60AD. The fragment may have come from the supposed Q document (assuming it existed) rather than a complete (or essentially complete) manuscript of Mark. It may have been a cross-over into Mark. We cannot say since we lack evidence. If the complete 7Q document (or even a large fragment of the document) which included 7Q5 appears I will immediately consider how I need to revise my conclusion, as will we all.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437895#Comment_437895

Robert ... I think you over-interpreted my question ... you accidentally put the gospels in 3rd century BC. But I'm sure Mark's days in Qumran will be of interest to others.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437388#Comment_437388

It all gets down to this (IMHO) - while we have several theories, we truly do not know.

That truly is the bottom line. It is always a matter of interpretation and speculation.

What do you mean "we don't know"? I was there. Remember that I'm almost 39. [6]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437918#Comment_437918

What do you mean "we don't know"? I was there. Remember that I'm almost 39.

Oh, Ancient of Days, my error. I should have known. [+o(] Will not happen again - at least not today.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437895#Comment_437895

The 7Q5 fragment is evidence that two verses of Mark existed no later than 60AD. The fragment may have come from the supposed Q document (assuming it existed) rather than a complete (or essentially complete) manuscript of Mark.

Why would we assume that with no manuscript evidence to back it up? Why would we not assume a fragment of Mark came from Mark, which we know exists?

You have more faith in documentary theory than me, brother. Faith is "the assurance of things not seen", especially in documentary theory. I am praying for more faith, but it just won't come.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437886#Comment_437886

It is probable (certain??) that each gospel circulated in oral form(s) well before the initial version(s) were committed to writing.

I am not at all convinced that is probable, much less certain.

It an assumption based upon Bultmann and others, as it allows for a period of creative reinterpretation (aka 'invention') in light of supposed community needs. This is the basis on which Goodacre tries to dismiss Q.

Papias states that the Gospel of Mark originated in the preaching of Peter--but there's no need to posit (as much of NT scholarship does) that anecdotes were invented for the occasion.

Bauckham still makes a strong argument, in my opinion, that the Gospels reflect eyewitness testimony.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438018#Comment_438018

What do you mean "we don't know"? I was there. Remember that I'm almost 39.

Oh, Ancient of Days, my error. I should have known. Will not happen again - at least not today.

I must admit, I get a bit annoyed when I hear that we 'can't know'

It seems to reflect a modern lack of faith in the historical process. I like to think that historical problems probably are resolvable--after all, something did actually happen in a real place at a real time--we just haven't quite figured out what yet. Or perhaps someone somewhere has figured it out and we just haven't heard from them yet.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437895#Comment_437895

Robert ... sure you don't want to edit that last paragraph?

Not really. As I said we have some fragments that may be older. I was thinking of the AD68 fragments of John. I was unaware of the Qumran fragment, which is older. The 7Q5 fragment is evidence that two verses of Mark existed no later than 60AD. The fragment may have come from the supposed Q document (assuming it existed) rather than a complete (or essentially complete) manuscript of Mark. It may have been a cross-over into Mark. We cannot say since we lack evidence. If the complete 7Q document (or even a large fragment of the document) which included 7Q5 appears I will immediately consider how I need to revise my conclusion, as will we all.

68AD? what is that? Most (myself included) are of the opinion that John was written in 95 or 96 AD.

There aren't Q readings that match Mark, so if it's Mark, it must be Mar--unless it's the Ur Markus of the hyper critical school.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437895#Comment_437895

Not really. As I said we have some fragments that may be older. I was thinking of the AD68 fragments of John. I was unaware of the Qumran fragment, which is older. The 7Q5 fragment is evidence that two verses of Mark existed no later than 60AD. The fragment may have come from the supposed Q document (assuming it existed) rather than a complete (or essentially complete) manuscript of Mark. It may have been a cross-over into Mark. We cannot say since we lack evidence. If the complete 7Q document (or even a large fragment of the document) which included 7Q5 appears I will immediately consider how I need to revise my conclusion, as will we all.

The equation of 7Q5 with a fragment of Mark is extremely dubious and not generally accepted.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438075#Comment_438075

Not a huge fan of Bultmann...

I tend to agree with the earlier statement - if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its probably not a hippo.

When and if Q turns up, perhaps then my opinion will change.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438054#Comment_438054

It seems to reflect a modern lack of faith in the historical process. I like to think that historical problems probably are resolvable

You have more optimism regarding what people felt like preserving than I do. In a multi-language Buddhist seminar, we quickly learned that the students of Chinese were really keen on who wrote/translated/edited what when because that is what the Chinese preserve. The students of Sanskrit would laugh as what was preserved for us was linguistics and schools of thought.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438209#Comment_438209

When and if Q turns up, perhaps then my opinion will change.

Exactly. The fictitious Q theory along with markan priority is .... well .... a load of garbage.

Let me clear this up for everyone if I may. Amazingly difficult as it might be for certain unbelieving "SCHOLARS" to believe, Matthew really was written by Matthew. It is first in the canon because it was written first. There is plenty of evidence to support these facts. Such evidence must be entirely and willfully ignored in order to place mark first, or to give credibility to any other version of oral tradition theories.

Matthew was the work of all the apostles during the time period in acts 2-3.

Why four gospels by David Allen Black is a good place to start.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438270#Comment_438270

When and if Q turns up, perhaps then my opinion will change.

Exactly. The fictitious Q theory along with markan priority is .... well .... a load of garbage.

Let me clear this up for everyone if I may. Amazingly difficult as it might be for certain unbelieving "SCHOLARS" to believe, Matthew really was written by Matthew. It is first in the canon because it was written first. There is plenty of evidence to support these facts. Such evidence must be entirely and willfully ignored in order to place mark first, or to give credibility to any other version of oral tradition theories.

Matthew was the work of all the apostles during the time period in acts 2-3.

Why four gospels by David Allen Black is a good place to start.

I take the view that Q is Papias' Aramaic Matthew. Judging from the tone of your post, I have my doubts that you have carefully weighed up all sides. I thought Black's book was inconsistent and implausible.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438273#Comment_438273

I take the view that Q is Papias' Aramaic Matthew. Judging from the tone of your post, I have my doubts that you have carefully weighed up all sides. I thought Black's book was inconsistent and implausible.

The interesting thing about Blacks view is that it is really just a restating of what the early church said. To reject Black is to reject the entire body of church Fathers. Faithless "scholars" of course have no problem with that.

Maybe you should write a review of Blacks book, as all the existing reviews contradict your thoughts.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438280#Comment_438280

I take the view that Q is Papias' Aramaic Matthew. Judging from the tone of your post, I have my doubts that you have carefully weighed up all sides. I thought Black's book was inconsistent and implausible.

The interesting thing about Blacks view is that it is really just a restating of what the early church said. To reject Black is to reject the entire body of church Fathers. Faithless "scholars" of course have no problem with that.

Maybe you should write a review of Blacks book, as all the existing reviews contradict your thoughts.

Yes, the reviews have been positive, but I don't share their enthusiasm.

And no, he doesn't follow the fathers--he picks and chooses the parts he agrees with. For example (one example), the church fathers--citing Papias--state that Mark wrote his Gospel after Peter left Rome, not while Peter was lecturing (with two large scrolls of Matthew and Mark to stop and check every few minutes if you please--hardly likely!). So perhaps you should read what the fathers said about how the Gospels were composed, instead of assuming that Black has accurately reflected their teaching, and accusing others of the neglect you yourself are guilty of. You need to give a fair hearing to all sides. I'll happily discuss Black's book with you point by point, but not unless you tone down the accusatory and self-congratulatory style of your posts.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438270#Comment_438270

Exactly. The fictitious Q theory along with markan priority is .... well .... a load of garbage.

Please reread the forum guidelines.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438292#Comment_438292

Exactly. The fictitious Q theory along with markan priority is .... well .... a load of garbage.

Please reread the forum guidelines.

Is it the word "Garbage" that you are referring to? If so, see the same usage by the apostle in Phillipians 3:8.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438290#Comment_438290

And no, he doesn't follow the fathers--he picks and chooses the parts he agrees with.

Yes, isnt it amazing how he completely ignored every church father or historian that taught "Q" theory [:)]

You single out miniscule issues and ignore the large ones. If you want to deny that Peter taught in Rome it still does nothing to advance your theory.

"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;" (Luke 1:1-2)

Luke told us that the scriptures were written by eyewitnesses. "Q" theory tells us they werent. Seems pretty clear to me. Either you believe the Bible or you dont.

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438363#Comment_438363

Is it the word "Garbage" that you are referring to?

The forum guidelines are available as a sticky post at the top of the 'General' forum (here). For your convenience, they read,

"Please abide by the following guidelines as you interact on our forums.

Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.
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Please help others follow these guidelines. If the problems continue after you’ve given a gentle reminder of these expectations, please click “Report Abuse” under “More” or send an email to forums@logos.com.

Thank you for your cooperation. Enjoy discussing and learning about Logos Bible Software."

In my opinion, the latter part of this thread is close to contravening 1 and 2. In my opinion, your post did not conform with the expectations outlined at point 3.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438369#Comment_438369

Is it the word "Garbage" that you are referring to?

The forum guidelines are available as a sticky post at the top of the 'General' forum (here). For your convenience, they read,

"Please abide by the following guidelines as you interact on our forums.

Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.

Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.

Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together.

.
.
.

In my opinion, the latter part of this thread is close to contravening 1 and 2. In my opinion, your post did not conform with the expectations outlined at point 3.

[Y]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438369#Comment_438369

In my opinion, the latter part of this thread is close to contravening 1 and 2. In my opinion, your post did not conform with the expectations outlined at point 3.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I have said nothing on here that I would not say if you were sitting in my living room and we were discussing "Q" theory.

As far as rules 1 and 2, it is not "the latter part" of the thread that isnt about Logos software, it wasn't from the very first post.

I personally see nothing wrong with an occasional discussion of Biblical or Theological topics on a forum such as this one. Truth about any topic is not bound by time or space, location or by any laws made by man. You can censor it one place and it will spring up somewhere else. I believe the truth on this issue is particularly elusive to newcomers, because it has been obscured by "scholars", and if even one person reads my post and looks at sources that show the correct view, then the complaints of a few legalists wanting to censor it was a small price to pay [H]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438270#Comment_438270

When and if Q turns up, perhaps then my opinion will change.

Exactly. The fictitious Q theory along with markan priority is .... well .... a load of garbage.

Let me clear this up for everyone if I may. Amazingly difficult as it might be for certain unbelieving "SCHOLARS" to believe, Matthew really was written by Matthew. It is first in the canon because it was written first. There is plenty of evidence to support these facts. Such evidence must be entirely and willfully ignored in order to place mark first, or to give credibility to any other version of oral tradition theories.

Matthew was the work of all the apostles during the time period in acts 2-3.

Why four gospels by David Allen Black is a good place to start.

I see that your answer is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw

In that case, I suggest that you read the Church Fathers and the texts and don't bother with any scholarly works. As regards Black, I recall someone saying "Beware of the man of one book." The priority of Mark is fairly well established in scholarly circles. I would suggest that you review some of the literature. Admittedly, there is some dissent – some scholarly such as Metzger, Ehrman, (yes) Black, Goodacre – and some merely dismissive such as you. You should examine the facts rather than simply dismissing a position.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438610#Comment_438610

The priority of Mark is fairly well established in scholarly circles.

When you said "priority of Mark", I believe what you are referring to is the Markan priority hypothesis. It is a hypothesis, or a theory. It is not a fact. It has never been proven. Not only is there no evidence to support it, but the vast majority of testimony from the early church and relevant historians all contradict it.

... is fairly well established in scholarly circles.

In logic this is a red herring fallacy called "argumentum ad populum", or "appeal to concensus".

Does it need to be pointed out that even if all scholars did agree on something, that this does not necessarily make it true?

You should examine the facts rather than simply dismissing a position.

I have examined the facts, and now I dismiss the position which was found to be in error.

Q theory is a bogus invention of an unbelieving mind, and it cannot be reconciled with what scripture itself teaches about its origin.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438637#Comment_438637

The priority of Mark is fairly well established in scholarly circles.

When you said "priority of Mark", I believe what you are referring to is the Markan priority hypothesis. It is a hypothesis, or a theory. It is not a fact. It has never been proven. Not only is there no evidence to support it, but the vast majority of testimony from the early church and relevant historians all contradict it.

... is fairly well established in scholarly circles.

In logic this is a red herring fallacy called "argumentum ad populum", or "appeal to concensus".

Does it need to be pointed out that even if all scholars did agree on something, that this does not necessarily make it true?

You should examine the facts rather than simply dismissing a position.

I have examined the facts, and now I dismiss the position which was found to be in error.

Q theory is a bogus invention of an unbelieving mind, and it cannot be reconciled with what scripture itself teaches about its origin.

You seem to equate any view of the priority of Mark and the existence of Q as being a reaction of disbelief, but you really have nothing on which to base your position. The fact that both Luke and Matthew, when they argree with one another follow Mark as well as what has been called "special Matthew" and "special Luke" points to both the priority of Mark and that Matthew and Luke had access to their own traditions. You can be as abusive as you like, but that doesn't change the facts. One might ask why you bothered to raise this question since it is outside the parameters of the list. It would appear that your sole object is to create dissention.

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438601#Comment_438601

But I have said nothing on here that I would not say if you were sitting in my living room and we were discussing "Q" theory.

You have, perhaps unwittingly, selectively read the guidelines. The third guideline begins, 'please treat others with love, courtesy, respect and kindness...'

You, however, write,

the complaints of a few legalists wanting to censor it was a small price to pay

Neither MJ nor I have resorted to discourteous remarks. I would be exceedingly grateful if you could respond in kind and correspond in manner befitting of a forum dedicated to Bible study software.

Incidentally, this is illustrative of why I believe your earlier post does not conform with the expectations set forth by Logos.

I personally see nothing wrong with an occasional discussion of Biblical or Theological topics on a forum such as this one.

This is evident from your contribution to this thread. You are, however, now aware of Logos' intentions with regards to this forum and their express wish that users do not discuss theology or controversial matters.

Logos has provided Faithlife.com where such conversations are entirely appropriate. I respectfully request you continue this debate there.

Thank you.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438659#Comment_438659

The fact that both Luke and Matthew, when they argree with one another follow Mark ...

More fallacious logic. Luke and Matthew in agreement proves they are following Mark, but Mark and Luke in agreement does not prove they are following Matthew? And you begin your sentence with the word "fact"?

That the synoptic gospels contain overlapping material does not make it a "fact" that Luke and Matthew are following Mark.

The fact is that Luke tells us that he followed the account of Eyewitnesses (Luke 1:1-2). Matthew was an eyewitness. He was numbered among the 12 apostles. Mark was not.

One might ask why you bothered to raise this question since it is outside the parameters of the list. It would appear that your sole object is to create dissention.

I did not raise the question. I did not start this thread. The discussion was already two pages long before I posted anything. My sole object in posting here is to make it known that Q-theory is not the only "theory", that there are much better explanations which do not require buying into the "scholarly" view that scripture is not inspired and did not originate with Jesus and his apostles. You would do well to stick with the topic of discussion.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438665#Comment_438665

You are, however, now aware of Logos' intentions with regards to this forum and their express wish that users do not discuss theology or controversial matters.

Andy, thanks for your contribution to my education. When I first saw the thread, a theological conversation was already taking place. In fact, some of them are still posting right now. I am curious as to why you had not already chastised all the other posters. Why would you single out one individual, and not address the entire thread? Aren't the rules for everyone to follow?

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438711#Comment_438711

Aren't the rules for everyone to follow?

I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Blessings

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438707#Comment_438707

My sole object in posting here is to make it known that Q-theory is not the only "theory"

Well, unless we find a copy of Q, it will always remain a theory – just as the Griesbach theory remains a theory and will continue to do so. The question is which theory best explains most of the facts and leaves out the fewest facts. It has been duly noted that the Markan priority and Q are theories. Now you can put a cover on your keyboard since your aim has been accomplished.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438715#Comment_438715

Now you can put a cover on your keyboard since your aim has been accomplished.

Hehe. Wouldnt you love that [H]. I hope you understood that I meant in THIS thread when I posted "here".

Scripture comes first. Mans theories ... well, do we really need them?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438718#Comment_438718

Scripture comes first. Mans theories ... well, do we really need them?

As a matter of fact, yes, we do need them. Unless we can categorize and organize the material and then draw conclusions from it, all we do is to "Pete and Repeat" (were sitting on a fence – Pete fell off and who was left?).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438719#Comment_438719

Unless we can categorize and organize the material and then draw conclusions from it, all we do is to "Pete and Repeat" (were sitting on a fence – Pete fell off and who was left?).

"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." (2Ti 2:2)

Those who repeat the truth are never a danger for anyone. It is those who "draw conclusions" that contradict truth who are a danger.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438711#Comment_438711

. I am curious as to why you had not already chastised all the other posters. Why would you single out one individual, and not address the entire thread?

As I was the first to evoke the guidelines, I'll answer although I am not Andy.

Many threads that cross the line are self-correcting. I have learned to wait and see if the thread rights itself to avoid the cop image.
The post which caused me to respond was the first to use degradation as a form of argument. That is a form not permitted in my living room - ever.

Aren't the rules for everyone to follow?

Yes, and all fall short of perfection. In society as a whole, we don't correct all errors, only egregious errors - especially those that affect others.

When I know a poster well enough to believe that they will understand I post this graphic to remind them not to be foolish in their line of argument. When I don't know them, I point them to the guidelines.

Note to all Logos users: just because you don't agree doesn't mean an argument is fallacious. An argument may be sound (logically correct) and still false if a premise is false.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/438737#Comment_438737

That is a form not permitted in my living room - ever.

I doubt there is much of interest in your living room. Come over to my place, we discuss things that really matter [:D]