What's the deal with Rahab? (not the prositute)
I was reading in Isaiah 51 and this is what the note for the 9th verse says about "Rahab":
"One of the names for the mythological dragon from Yahweh’s primordial battle with the forces of chaos. In 30:7, Rahab is figuratively used to represent Egypt."
"Biblical references to the sea monster Rahab fall into two groups:
allusions to the dragon defeated at the time of creation (Psa 89:10, Job
9:13; 26:12), and metaphorical references to Egypt (Psa 87:4, Isa
30:7)."
Barry, J. D., Grigoni, M. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Is 51:9). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
My HCSB study bible also says the same thing about Rehab in these verses, it fails however to mention where this information came from. So what I want to know is where on Earth did this information come from? It defiantly isn't explained in the bible, I have never heard anything like this before, this definitely isn't taught in any churches I've been to.
Comments
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Hi Kyle
Kyle said:My HCSB study bible also says the same thing about Rehab in these verses, it fails however to mention where this information came from. So what I want to know is where on Earth did this information come from?
It is mentioned by a range of commentaries - some in agreement and some not:
Most scholars today are in agreement that while the exodus events are in the center of the writer’s thinking, they are not by any means all that is there. Rahab is clearly a term for Egypt (cf. 30:7; and Ps. 87:4, where Rahab and Babylon are paired); so also the monster (or “dragon”) is a term for Pharaoh (Ezek. 29:3). But it is also clear that those terms are not limited to those historical referents. As is known from Ugaritic studies, the twisting monster is a figure in the struggles of Baal with the god of the sea, Yam, as is “Leviathan,” which is equated with the monster in Isa. 27:1. Given these facts, and the evidence that the myth of the struggle of the gods with the sea monster was known in one form or another all over the ancient Near East, one has reason to believe that Isaiah is here, as in 27:1, utilizing this acquaintance among the people for his own purposes. It is important to note that the allusions to Near Eastern myths in the Bible all occur after 750 B.C., long after the basic antimythic character of biblical faith had been established. Thus there is an appeal here neither to some current Hebrew myth nor to some original one, now dead. Rather, just as a contemporary poet might allude to the Iliad or the Odyssey, utilizing imagery familiar to his hearers but that is hardly part of their belief system, so Isaiah uses the imagery of the well-known stories of creation to make his point. It was not Baal or Marduk or Ashur who had any claim to being the Creator—it was the Lord alone.
John N. Oswalt, The Book of Isaiah, Chapters 40–66 (, The New International Commentary on the Old TestamentGrand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1998), 341-42.
51:9b–10 Now those praying ask God some rhetorical questions which imply a positive answer. “Was it not you?” (hălô ʾat hîʾ) means, “surely it was you.” If God was the one who did great things in the past, surely he is able to do great things for his people now and in the future. A. Schoors concludes that “two facts from primeval ages are viewed here: creation and deliverance from Egypt,” in order to prove God’s enormous power. Some view the mention of cutting up Rahab and the piercing of the monster as a reference to a victory over the chaos monster in Babylonian or Canaanite creation mythology.211 Although the prophet may use the imagery of the surrounding culture, just as people today refer to Santa without believing in him, it is unlikely that the prophet was referring to the myth contained in the Enuma elish where the chief Babylonian god Marduk slew the dragon Tiamat (not Rahab) or the Canaanite myth where the god Baal slew Yam (not Rahab). Since (a) 51:10 refers to the exodus events (Ps 93:1–4); (b) it was the arm of the Lord that brought about the exodus (Exod 3:20; 6:6; 15:16; Deut 4:34; 5:15; 6:21; Pss 77:15–16; 136:12; Isa 50:2; 63:12); (c) Rahab is a title that often refers to Egypt (30:7; Ps 87:4); (d) at creation the sea was not made dry; and (e) in pagan mythology the sea monster was not “dried up” (from the root ḥārab), 51:9b–10 must refer to the great deeds God did at the time of the exodus, not at the time of the creation of the world. The slaying of the “monster, dragon” (tannîn) refers metaphorically to the defeat of Egypt (as in Ps 74:13–14; Ezek 29:3; 32:2).
Gary Smith, vol. 15B, Isaiah 40-66 (, The New American CommentaryNashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2009), 403-04.
9 זרוע יהוה, “Arm of YHWH,” is addressed as an independent entity, as though it represents power in itself. The term appears also in Exod 15:16; Deut 4:34; 7:19; 9:29; 11:2; 26:8; 1 Kgs 8:42/2 Chr 6:32; 2 Kgs 17:36; Jer 27:5; 32:17, 21; Ezek 20:33–34; and Ps 136:12. Sometimes it is used metaphorically for YHWH’s power, as support for the weak, as a shepherd (40:11; Deut 33:27), but it also seems to move beyond metaphor. In this passage it is associated with mythic themes: “wounding Rahab” (cf. 30:7; Job 9:13; 26:12; Ps 89:11 [10]) and the piercing of Tanin, the mythical “dragon” of chaos (cf. Deut 32:33; Ps 91:13; and Exod 7:9, 10, 12, of snakes; Jer 51:34 and Neh 2:13, of a dragon; and Gen 1:21, Job 7:12, Ps 74:13, Isa 27:1, Ezek 29:3, and 32:2, of a sea monster). The references clearly relate YHWH to a great victory over these primeval sea monsters in a form that is not included in Scripture and that is probably not acceptable in biblical doctrine. Yet it obviously played a role in popular thought.
John D. W. Watts, vol. 25, Isaiah 34–66 (Revised Edition;, Word Biblical Commentary Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, Inc, 2005), 769-70.
The Dictionary of the Old Testament: Historical Books comments generally on this usage:
8.8.3. Chaoskampf in the Bible. It often is asserted that creation in the Bible is associated with a Chaoskampf (divine battle against chaos) between Yahweh and the sea, following older religious traditions. Certainly, there are many references to fights between gods and monsters in myths. However, it is only in the rather late and syncretistic Babylonian Enuma Elish that battle is associated with creation. Baal’s battle with the sea Yam (note: not the tĕhôm of Gen 1:2) has nothing to do with creation (see Tsumura 1989); there is no reason to think that creation in the Bible was ever associated with battle. In Psalm 46 the chaotic sea waters bring about not creation, but destruction. In poetic passages, such as Habakkuk 3, storm and war imageries express Yahweh’s victorious acts. There is no reason to associate them with creation or with Baal. Storm and war imageries often are used interchangeably in ancient Near Eastern literature. Furthermore, the Ugaritic myth does not associate storm imagery with the battle between Baal and Yam. Yahweh’s kingship in Psalm 29 is unrelated to Baal’s kingship after his victory over Yam, the chaos water, for the water mabbûl (Ps 29:10) refers to the Deluge, like the Akkadian abūbu (CAD A/1.77–81)—that is, to Yahweh’s weapon, not his enemy.
There are expressions referring to Yahweh fighting creatures similar to Baal’s enemies, such as Leviathan (Ps 74:14; 104:26; Is 27:1), Rahab (Ps 89:10; Is 51:9) and a monster (Ps 74:13). However, these almost always occur in isolated phrases in poetic texts, and should be treated as imagery, metaphors and idioms rather than as religious statements. It should be noted that even in the Ugaritic myth the victory over Ltn (i.e., Leviathan) and the dragon tnn were described as past events, and it is reasonable to assume that such traditions had already become widely known in Canaan in the Late Bronze Age. The biblical authors used them metaphorically (see Tsumura 2005).
Bill T. Arnold and H. G. M. Williamson, Dictionary of the Old Testament: Historical Books (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2005), 130.
I am surprised that the FSB notes are worded in the way that they are in this case.
I expect someone from the Logos FSB team will see this thread and comment
Graham
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Hi Kyle
Kyle said:So what I want to know is where on Earth did this information come from?
I should have said that a Basic search in Logos for "Yahweh NEAR chaos" should return some results for further study.
You can perform this search from the search window in the FSB app or from Logos 4/5 on Windows / Mac
Graham
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One addition which I don't think Graham mentioned (unless I overlooked it) is a fairly lengthly article on Rahab in
Spronk, K. "Rahab". In Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible. 2nd extensively rev. ed. Leiden; Boston; Köln; Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge: Brill; Eerdmans, 1999.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
One addition which I don't think Graham mentioned (unless I overlooked it) is a fairly lengthly article on Rahab in
Spronk, K. "Rahab". In Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible. 2nd extensively rev. ed. Leiden; Boston; Köln; Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge: Brill; Eerdmans, 1999.
Thanks George
I was interested in that one - it is actually linked from the FSB notes on this passage but I don't have it[:(]
Graham
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Kyle said:
I was reading in Isaiah 51 and this is what the note for the 9th verse says about "Rahab":
"One of the names for the mythological dragon from Yahweh’s primordial battle with the forces of chaos. In 30:7, Rahab is figuratively used to represent Egypt."
"Biblical references to the sea monster Rahab fall into two groups:
allusions to the dragon defeated at the time of creation (Psa 89:10, Job
9:13; 26:12), and metaphorical references to Egypt (Psa 87:4, Isa
30:7)."
Barry, J. D., Grigoni, M. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Is 51:9). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.My HCSB study bible also says the same thing about Rehab in these verses, it fails however to mention where this information came from. So what I want to know is where on Earth did this information come from? It defiantly isn't explained in the bible, I have never heard anything like this before, this definitely isn't taught in any churches I've been to.
Welcome to studying the Bible using Logos. Thanks to Logos, we are exposed to a much broader understanding of scripture. Because of Logos, we get to read what the people who get paid to study scripture at a level that is beyond what most of us can do.
As you have discovered, it can be eye opening experience when we discovered something that is not taught in our tradition.
What I find fascinating here is that YHWH's arm (LORD) is feminine, and that the feminine form of address is maintained throughout the text.
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Graham Criddle said:
I was interested in that one - it is actually linked from the FSB notes on this passage but I don't have it
Now you have something to put on your wish list. Perhaps they'll offer it as one of the twelve, but I doubt that since they seem to concentrate on collections which are a bit more expensive.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Now you have something to put on your wish list.
And after you pointing it out I went and looked on Logos' site for it - just a bit too expensive for me at the moment
George Somsel said:Perhaps they'll offer it as one of the twelve
That would be nice[Y]
Thanks, Graham
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Graham ... need to break out the old piggy bank.
I avoided Deities/Demons for a LONG time since I frankly didn't want one more 'picture' book about 'religion' (in this case ancient). I finally got it and it turned out, its whole discussion is for those mentioned in the Bible (you probably knew that; I didn't). Now that I have it, it surprisingly pops up more so than AYBD on some words that I'd never associate with 'deities and demons'. Excellent book and well written; doesn't seem to be 'biased' one way or the other.
My most recent surprising popup was 'sun' which led to 'Helios' (my apostolic fathers commentary mentioned a 2nd century ce fascination with the sun (god), especially in Egypt).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Graham Criddle said:
$80 list price – need I remind you that if you call sales you will most likely get it cheaper?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
$80 list price – need I remind you that if you call sales you will most likely get it cheaper?
It's a conspiracy[:)]
Seriously, appreciate the advice and recommendations.
Graham
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OK Graham; please ignore this (everyone has their budget trials!).
But yes indeed, 'conspiracy' was a major player in the 'Helios' (sun emphasis in the 2nd century). And of course, it's the wife of Re, wouldn't you know it.
"At the same time, the goddess is the spouse of the sun or light god: →Re in Heliopolis and Horus in Edfu. She is not always an attractive and amiable figure. As the grim avenger of an injury (a conspiracy against Re), she would become a ferocious →lioness.'
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
OK Graham; please ignore this (everyone has their budget trials!).
But yes indeed, 'conspiracy' was a major player in the 'Helios' (sun emphasis in the 2nd century). And of course, it's the wife of Re, wouldn't you know it.
"At the same time, the goddess is the spouse of the sun or light god: →Re in Heliopolis and Horus in Edfu. She is not always an attractive and amiable figure. As the grim avenger of an injury (a conspiracy against Re), she would become a ferocious →lioness.'
[:)][Y]
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Interestingly, looking at the ESV Study Bible for this passage it says:
Rahab is Egypt (cf. 30:7). The ancient oppressor nation is perceived as a monster of mythic evil, slain by the power of God.
Crossway Bibles, The ESV Study Bible (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2008), 1335.
So the emphasis is more on God defeating the enemy as opposed to God being in a "primordial battle with the forces of chaos" as mentioned in FSB (as per the original post)
May be an "easier" way to convey the idea in a study Bible - but it all depends on one's perspective and what one is actually trying to say.
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What I really wanted to know is where did this concept of Rahab being a sea monster come from? I'm guessing it came from other ancient extra-biblical texts? If so which ones? Is the story any more detailed then just 'mythological dragon from Yahweh’s primordial battle with the forces of chaos'? Is there more info about this "primordial battle with the forces of chaos"? How do we know that this is what the Hebrews believed?
This intrigues me even further because there is a sea monster in Revelation and more info might be of help in interpreting that part.0 -
Kyle said:
What I really wanted to know is where did this concept of Rahab being a sea monster come from? I'm guessing it came from other ancient extra-biblical texts? If so which ones?
There seems to be a strong view that this parallels creation stories from other ancient cultures.
See, for example:
D. Parallels with Pagan Creation Myths Several poetic passages in the OT refer to a struggle between Yahweh and a giant serpent/sea monster/dragon in a manner that seems clearly to parallel similar accounts of a struggle between a high god and a sea monster in Mesopotamian and Canaanite creation myths. The similarity is particularly striking in references to a sea serpent called LEVIATHAN in the OT and Lotan in Ugaritic texts (e.g., cf. Ps. 74:13f). Isa. 27:1 states that Yahweh “will punish Leviathan the fleeing [brḥ] serpent, Leviathan the twisting [˓qltn] serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.” Cf. a passage in an Ugaritic myth expressing Baal’s authority over the powers of chaos: “If thou [Baal] smite Lotan, the serpent slant [brḥ], Destroy the serpent tortuous [˓qltn], Shalyat of the seven heads …” (ANET, p. 138; see also J. N. Oswalt, Book of Isaiah: Chapters 1–39 [NICOT, 1986], pp. 490f). In Job 26:13 Yahweh conquers the “fleeting serpent” (AV “crooked serpent”), which parallels the sea monster RAHAB (v 12). See also DRAGON; SEA MONSTER.
, vol. 4, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised ( ed. Geoffrey W. Bromiley; (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1988)), 418.
Even more explicit is a passage in a late chapter of the postexilic portion of Isaiah in the reference to Rahab as a being that belongs to primeval days, to the very beginning of time. Calling upon the people to place their trust in Yahweh as the supreme vanquisher of all foes, however numerous and strong, the Prophet calls upon God Himself to manifest His power as at the time when He overcame Rahab.
“Awake, awake! gird on strength, O arm of Yahweh!
Awake as in the days of Beginning, the generations of distant times!
Art not thou the one who didst shatter Rahab, crushing the dragon?”
The picture here forms a complete analogy to the Babylonian myth—even to the conception of Rahab as a dragon.
Morris Jastrow, Jr., Hebrew and Babylonian Traditions (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1914), 109-10.
I don't know what resources you have in your Logos library but try doing a Basic search on "rahab NEAR dragon" and see what you get
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Kyle said:
What I really wanted to know is where did this concept of Rahab being a sea monster come from? I'm guessing it came from other ancient extra-biblical texts? If so which ones? Is the story any more detailed then just 'mythological dragon from Yahweh’s primordial battle with the forces of chaos'? Is there more info about this "primordial battle with the forces of chaos"? How do we know that this is what the Hebrews believed?
The article from Anchor Bible Dictionary is instructive here. In particular the second sentence, "The name of this monster has not hitherto been discovered in any extrabiblical text." For further info, you might want to try to get hold of the source book for this article listed in the bibliography at the end of it, God’s Conflict with the Dragon and the Sea by John Day. You can preview some pages of it on Google Books, and it appears to be widely available in libraries. Alternatively, another book by John Day called Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan has a section in it titled "Yahweh's Conflict with the Dragon and the Sea: The Appropriation of a Baal Motif" of which you can preview pages 98-101, 104-105 on Amazon.com.
Study Note from the NET Bible for Job 9:13 "“Rahab” is identified with Tiamat of the Babylonian creation epic, or Leviathan of the Canaanite myths."
Logos resources that might be of help:
Creation and Chaos in the Primeval Era and the Eschaton
Here's the relevant excerpt from the Table of Contents:
The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria
Has lots about the Tiâmat myth.
And here's that Anchor Bible Dictionary article:
RAHAB (DRAGON) [Heb rahab (רַהַב)]. The name of a mythological sea serpent or dragon, lit. “boisterous one,” referred to a number of times in the OT (Ps 87:4; 89:11—Eng 89:10; Job 9:13; 26:12; Isa 30:7; 51:9). The name of this monster has not hitherto been discovered in any extrabiblical text. In the OT, Rahab functions similarly to Leviathan, an originally Canaanite chaos monster, but whether these are to be identified or are separate monsters in origin is not entirely clear.
Rahab appears in two different contexts in the OT. On the one hand, it appears as a sea monster defeated at the time of creation (Ps 89:11—Eng 89:10; Job 9:13; 26:12), and on the other as a metaphorical name for Egypt (Ps 87:4; Isa 30:7). In Isa 51:9 the two usages may be fused.
Ps 89:10–11—Eng 89:9–10 declares to Yahweh, “You rule the surging of the sea: when its waves rise, you still them. You did crush Rahab with a mortal blow, you did scatter your enemies with your mighty arm.” The following (vv 12–13—Eng 11–12) clearly spell out the creation context of this conflict, so that it is necessary to reject the view of those scholars who see here an allusion to the Exodus or, as some would maintain, to both Exodus and creation. The references to God’s conflict with Rahab in both Job 9:13 and 26:12 also appear to be set in creation contexts. Job 26:12–13 reads: “By his power he stilled the sea; by his understanding he smote Rahab. By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the twisting serpent (nāhāš bārı̄aḥ).” This expression “twisting serpent” is a term used elsewhere of Leviathan (Isa 27:1 and similarly bṯn brḥ in KTU 1.5.I.1 = CTA 5.1.1), which may indicate that Rahab is being equated with Leviathan. In Job 9:13–14, Job declares: “God will not turn back his anger; beneath him bowed the helpers of Rahab. How then can I answer him, choosing my words with him?” The sentiment here is rather similar to that at the end of the book of Job, where Job is humbled before Yahweh in the wake of the second divine speech in which it is implied that he (Job) cannot overcome the chaos monsters Leviathan and Behemoth, which Yahweh did overcome (cf. Job 40–42:6). As for “the helpers of Rahab,” these must be other chaos monsters associated with Rahab. One may compare Tiamat’s allies, referred to as “her helpers” in Enuma Elish (4: 107).
That Rahab serves as a name for Egypt is explicit in Isa 30:7, where the prophet declares: “For Egypt’s help is worthless and empty, therefore I have called her ‘the silenced Rahab.’ ” The translation “the silenced Rahab” is achieved by reading rahab hammošbāt for the meaningless MT rahab hēm šābet, which seems the most satisfactory emendation (cf. Isa 14:4). Rahab also clearly functions as the name of a country in Ps 87:4: “I reckon Rahab and Babylon as those that know me; behold Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia—‘this one was born there.’ ” Egypt is the most likely referent for Rahab here, paralleling Isa 30:7. That the defeated sea dragon Rahab should serve as a metaphor for Egypt is understandable when one recalls the oppressive role which Egypt played with regard to Israel before the Exodus and the location of the heart of the Exodus deliverance at the sea (Exodus 14–15). Compare the allusion to pharaoh as a dragon in Ezek 29:3–5 and 32:2–8 (reading tannı̂n, “dragon,” for MT tannı̂m, “jackals”).
Isa 51:9–11 is a famous passage, which reads: “Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord, awake as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who hewed Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon? Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over? So the ransomed of the Lord will return and come to Zion with singing, everlasting joy shall be on their heads; they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” Verse 10b certainly refers to the Exodus, and v 11 to the new Exodus, the return of the exiles from Babylon. The reference in v 9 to the defeat of Rahab could refer to the chaos monster at the time of creation, to Egypt at the time of the Exodus, or to a fusion of both.
Finally, it should be noted that Gunkel (Die Psalmen HKAT) believed that Rahab is mentioned in the plural in Ps 40:5—Eng 40:4, but it is much more likely that rĕhābı̂m there simply refers to proud or arrogant men. See also DRAGON AND SEA, GOD’S CONFLICT WITH.
Bibliography
Day, J. 1985. God’s Conflict with the Dragon and the Sea. Cambridge.
JOHN DAY
John Day, "Rahab (Dragon)" In , in , vol. 5, The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, ed. David Noel Freedman (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 610-11.
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I would not do this. I would allow the sea monster in revelation be just the sea monster in revelation. It is widely understood that the sea monster in revelation is a symbol for the roman empire.Kyle said:there is a sea monster in Revelation and more info might be of help in interpreting that part.
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tom said:
I would not do this. I would allow the sea monster in revelation be just the sea monster in revelation. It is widely understood that the sea monster in revelation is a symbol for the roman empire.Kyle said:there is a sea monster in Revelation and more info might be of help in interpreting that part.
On the contrary, the dragon and sea monster in Revelation are based on the old monsters of ancient mythology previously detailed by Graham and Rosie. While I don't agree in all respects with Hermann Gunkel, his
Gunkel, Hermann and Heinrich Zimmern. Creation and Chaos in the Primeval Era and the Eschaton: A Religio-Historical Study of Genesis 1 and Revelation 12. Translated by Whitney, K. William, Jr. Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, UK: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2006.
has some very good points which should be taken into consideration.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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"So the emphasis is more on God defeating the enemy as opposed to God being in a "primordial battle with the forces of chaos" as mentioned in FSB (as per the original post)"
John Day, in God's Conflict with the Dragon and the Sea brings in several examples of where the Old Testament "historicizes" the myth, by attributing or comparing one of its enemies to Leviathan/Rahab/the dragon.
As for Revelation, it's heavily drawing on this old Chaoskampf imagery. When discussing this motif in class, Mark Smith actually singled out Revelation as the most thorough usage of the old Chaoskampf/dragon imagery in the Bible."The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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George Somsel said:
On the contrary, the dragon and sea monster in Revelation are based on the old monsters of ancient mythology previously detailed by Graham and Rosie
Hi George, I am going to have to disagree with you. I don't have my stuff in front of me, but there is also good evidence that this sea monster is a symbol for Rome.
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You're confusing the source of the symbol with what it symbolizes, and reading a bit too narrowly. Revelation is another example of historicization of the myth. Now Rome is God's primordial enemy.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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George's book is up in Rosie's area if you want to click on it (for Logos.com). I just bought it (thanks Rosie and George!).
I clearly remember when I first encountered the surprise that Lyle expresses. On the one hand, it's like there's another world the church doesn't deal with (huh?).
But on the other, the OT offers a whole world of ancient realities that God dealt with, and the Israelites had no choice but to deal with. Imagine trying to lead a large number of YHWH followers with these fears in the background. Very fascinating. Here in Sedona, many folks see tremendous power in special rocks, etc so it's easy to understand Jeremiah trying to convince the rural Israelites that objects don't have power.
On Rev, I agree with George but probably for 'bad' reasons; the greek patterns for chapters 5-18 most match the late 1stc bce and not the late 1st ce, with a 'wrapper' that DOES match the late 1stc ce (chaps 1-4, 19-22). I'd bet it's not by accident the early church, being greek speakers, saw the same patterns and wondered concerning its source. Much later, Origen returned for another 'greek' analysis.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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tom said:
Hi George, I am going to have to disagree with you. I don't have my stuff in front of me, but there is also good evidence that this sea monster is a symbol for Rome
No, it's not Rome, at least not specifically. It represents all opposition to God and human self-assertion. This includes Rome but is not specifically restricted to Rome.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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DMB said:
George's book
I did a double take there! For a minute I was thinking George's Revelation commentary was done already and available from Logos. Whew! Good thing I reread the sentence. Now I realize you were talking about the book by Gunkel that George (and I) recommended.
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All of which reminds me that we need Religion and Its Monsters by Timothy K. Beal is a fun read on the subject that should be in Logos or Vyrso.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The serpent of creation? Rahab has passed through the sands of time representing Egypt that "She shall be the most devastated of lands, and her cities shall be the most desolate of all." Ezekiel 30: 7.
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Welcome to the forums. You've revived a 4 year old thread - anything you want to know or just commenting on a topic of interest?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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This thread makes me sad because Rosie no longer comes out to play.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Since the thread has been resurrected, for anyone reading it for the first time like I just did and who may be interested in the Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, the book is now available as part of several base packages (that is how I eventually got it after it had been on my wishlist for a good while).
https://www.logos.com/resources/LLS_13.0.23/dictionary-of-deities-and-demons-in-the-bible.
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