If Logos were to go out of business...

What s the policy of Logos regarding DRM if the company were to ever go out of business? Since so much of the business is in the cloud and account based, would they remove all DRM from the resources and allow us to have a full backup going forward?

I am aware that we can backup our resources but since we are required to log in to Logos upon installation, wouldn't a backup be pointless of there is no longer a way to confirm our purchae history?

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DMB

Well, Zoe does have a proud Daddy indeed. You encapsulated 3 years of discussion since Logos4 was introduced. And as long as there's no straight answers (so far), I buy almost totally for Libronix. Period. I'm not stupid.

ZoesProudDaddy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442442#Comment_442442

I am confused. If you dont have an answer why do you still buy from the company?

Fred

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442448#Comment_442448

Well, I can't answer for DMB, of course, but, in my case, I still maintain a "Logos 3", a.k.a. "Libronix" installation, which does ~not~ require contacting "the cloud" for my licenses - the licenses are stored in license files right on the hard drive.

(Besides, I still like the L3/Libronix interface and functionality. but that's another issue...)

However, because of this I was disappointed (but not surprised) when Logos stopped releasing Libronix versions of new resources not too long ago. Oh, well...

On the other hand, I am not seriously expecting Logos to "go away" anytime during my lifetime. :-)

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442454#Comment_442454

I'm sorry ZPD ... Fred said what I should have said. Libronix, unlike Logos4/5 can survive on its own, especially within a virtual 'box'. And I don't make assumptions about small companies. I assume Zoe is one happy child?

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442454#Comment_442454

Well, I can't answer for DMB, of course, but, in my case, I still maintain a "Logos 3", a.k.a. "Libronix" installation, which does ~not~ require contacting "the cloud" for my licenses - the licenses are stored in license files right on the hard drive.

(Besides, I still like the L3/Libronix interface and functionality. but that's another issue...)

However, because of this I was disappointed (but not surprised) when Logos stopped releasing Libronix versions of new resources not too long ago. Oh, well...

On the other hand, I am not seriously expecting Logos to "go away" anytime during my lifetime. :-)

I don't understand why a clear answer to this question is not available. I've read and even participated in some of them but I still am confused. I stopped using Libronix years ago but this post is making me wonder if I was wise. What other options are even available now?

The question of the future of Logos has often concerned me. It is easy to imagine passing on my paper library to my children or grandchildren but will Logos be around in the future for me to pass on the resources I currently own? I wish that there were more assurances but I guess that is just the way it is.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442459#Comment_442459

Remember, Logos 4/5 can run indefinitely offline. If you have to reinstall that may be a challenge. The wiki has several methods for installing onto multiple computers. Have not looked to see if you can install without going online.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442464#Comment_442464

Here is the link. http://wiki.logos.com/search.aspx?q=installing+on+multiple+computers If you use a Dvd that should give you the engine.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442464#Comment_442464

Method one, seems to be the one to do the trick.

ZoesProudDaddy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442462#Comment_442462

If Bob has offered an official statement, could someone link it? If he hasn't that is very disappointing.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442479#Comment_442479

How well 'Method #1' might work down the road is a guess, but it's certainly worth your while to backup the software/resources as Lynden points to.

User work is the other issue (most people use the Bible software):

This thread will give you a taste of the problem (ie not just the software; the user's work as well): http://community.logos.com/forums/t/33479.aspx

And the commitment from Bob: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/17382/131433.aspx

Doc B

What s the policy of Logos regarding DRM if the company were to ever go out of business?

Basically, we are screwed.

But that's no different than just about any other product you buy. You rolls your dice and you moves your mice.

I've owned a number of different items that became problematic when the company went out of business, the most expensive of which was a new homeowner's warranty on our first house. That wasn't fun. But it didn't kill us.

It would be very sad if Logos went out of business. If that's too big a risk, don't buy it. I think the risk-benefit ratio comes out well in my favor right now, however. So I buy, and enjoy the product. Que sera, sera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TO9N61SYU0

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442497#Comment_442497

Nothing here is forever, but I've more confidence that Logos has gotten it right.

Technology is a bad place to have a bunker mindset.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442549#Comment_442549

In all likelihood, the rights to the software and userbase would probably be purchased by either a competitor, or an investment group. I doubt it would completely disappear, because the number of users Logos has is too big for a competitor to snub.

Unless, of course, the entire market for Bible study software disappears, but I don't see that happening while there's still a power grid.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442550#Comment_442550

In all likelihood, the rights to the software and userbase would probably be purchased by either a competitor, or an investment group. I doubt it would completely disappear, because the number of users Logos has is too big for a competitor to snub.

Unless, of course, the entire market for Bible study software disappears, but I don't see that happening while there's still a power grid.

Does anyone know how many Logos users exist today? Is there a web page that makes a report on this once in a while?

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442577#Comment_442577

Does anyone know how many Logos users exist today? Is there a web page that makes a report on this once in a while?

Peace, Bruce! *smile* I was unable to find the thread; however, I distinctly remember Bob mentioning "over a million users" very recently indeed, within the last month or six weeks. Perhaps someone else could find that for you ....

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442592#Comment_442592

Found it! Over a million! *smile*

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/61459.aspx

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442594#Comment_442594

Found it! Over a million! *smile*

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/61459.aspx

Thanks Milford. Over a million users is a large number. It makes me
wonder how much future growth is possible or likely which makes me also
wonder about the future economic model for Logos.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442601#Comment_442601

Over a million users is a large number. It makes me wonder how much future growth is possible or likely which makes me also wonder about the future economic model for Logos.

Bruce,

I think I remember Bob telling us that the number of users increased dramatically with the release of the free mobile apps and that a very large fraction of users are app-only users.

The growth-challenge for Logos is making free-riders into paying customers. The million isn't the growth barrier (we sold all we can possibly sell and now close down) but it's the pool of future paying customers: they already have the app, maybe even the free engine, and some free resources. Then to really unlock the power of Logos some of them will get the FSB, the Core Datasets, a bible, some commentaries or a starter package....

No limits to growth on this end.

My 2c,

Mick

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442442#Comment_442442

I'm not stupid.

Implying that the rest of us are. Thanks.

Donnie

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442603#Comment_442603

Over a million users is a large number. It makes me wonder how much future growth is possible or likely which makes me also wonder about the future economic model for Logos.

Bruce,

I think I remember Bob telling us that the number of users increased dramatically with the release of the free mobile apps and that a very large fraction of users are app-only users.

The growth-challenge for Logos is making free-riders into paying customers. The million isn't the growth barrier (we sold all we can possibly sell and now close down) but it's the pool of future paying customers: they already have the app, maybe even the free engine, and some free resources. Then to really unlock the power of Logos some of them will get the FSB, the Core Datasets, a bible, some commentaries or a starter package....

No limits to growth on this end.

My 2c,

Mick

I'm glad that you used the term "free-riders" instead of "free-loaders". [:)]

So that leads me to the next question. How many Logos users are there that have actually purchased at least a base package?

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442612#Comment_442612

I don't think that Logos profits all that much on those who only buy a base-package.

So that leads me to the next question. How many Logos users are there that have actually purchased at least a base package?

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442615#Comment_442615

I wasn't too happy about reading this:

[quote]

As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)

I thought I was buying kindle-like books that I can read anywhere, internet or not, not a 'google-books' where I have to be near a connection.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442618#Comment_442618

Yes, I thought it was funny too.

You can always tell when the someone's having trouble rationalizing ... they trot in the extreme example, as if they truly think someone is going to take the logic seriously.

Why I remember the day we were up in the high Sierras. We were on a critical mission trip. We had forgotten our solar powered PC, but did remember our Mac (having carried along a lead-acid car battery just in case).

Actually the key reason to be OFF the internet is not to chew up gigs on our cellular. Ditto for all the other PC applications that want to wantonly download updates, and this and that.

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442497#Comment_442497

It would be very sad if Logos went out of business. If that's too big a risk, don't buy it.

I think that this is really the only way to look at it. As Doc mentions, it applies to almost anything that you invest in, especially computer based programs. I am not trying to be a smartie pants but we could also look at this question from a different perspective. What if I had 2,000 hard copy books in my home and the house burns down? What would I do? I had planned on having them for life but now they are gone in the matter of minutes. Anything can happen. There are no guarantees that a business can never go under or that we will never suffer devastating losses in life.

I've lost money when software companies have went out of business or changed their product lines to no longer include the software that I own and not being able to use it when it became obsolete.

Putting big money into anything is a risk.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442637#Comment_442637

Risk is interesting. Here in Sedona, visitors are often having to be rescued, having lost the trail, no water and thinking hot in the day is warm at night. So over and over, the rescue people try to remind people to 'think ahead'.

People often mention burning houses, forgetting that communities and home owners go to considerable ends to avoid the problem. And so electronic books can merit the same 'thinking ahead'.

Greg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442637#Comment_442637

This is one of the advantages of print books. If the publisher goes out of business, you'll still be able to read them (same for the electricity too!)

But if a scenario like that were to happen, one would have the option of simply copying and pasting each Logos book into Word and saving it as a PDF or something.

Its not a hard thing to do, just tedious given the amount of books in most libraries. If Logos went out of business then any agreement you made concerning the digital content would go with them.

And even if that's not the case, I bought the right to the content of these books, so I'm going to consume them in whatever way I think is best for me. WHEN, not if, Logos goes out of business, I'm not going to lose my access to these works in any way at all.

Evan Boardman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442650#Comment_442650

To be safe....commit all to memory.[:D]

Schezic

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442628#Comment_442628

Yes, I thought it was funny too.

You can always tell when the someone's having trouble rationalizing ... they trot in the extreme example, as if they truly think someone is going to take the logic seriously.

Why I remember the day we were up in the high Sierras. We were on a critical mission trip. We had forgotten our solar powered PC, but did remember our Mac (having carried along a lead-acid car battery just in case).

Actually the key reason to be OFF the internet is not to chew up gigs on our cellular. Ditto for all the other PC applications that want to wantonly download updates, and this and that.

Do you drive a Rambler?

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442669#Comment_442669

To be safe....commit all to memory.

[Y]

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442442#Comment_442442

Well, Zoe does have a proud Daddy indeed. You encapsulated 3 years of discussion since Logos4 was introduced. And as long as there's no straight answers (so far), I buy almost totally for Libronix. Period. I'm not stupid.

This is fine as long as you no longer buy books for Logos. I know of no publisher that still makes new resources for Libronix (I think Logos has stopped allowing third parties to do so) and since new resources for Logos 4 and 5 are now made in a way that Libronix can not read them (as I understand it anyhow) relying on Libronix in a virtual machine is not the fix-all solution to the situation unless you no longer want any newer resources as they come out.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442738#Comment_442738

Rick ... You're absolutely correct.

But absent being a pastor/scholar (e.g. a job), personally there's a point where the Logos purchasing process becomes almost a hobby (I can't wait for Matthew to respond to that).

- If reading/learning is truly the goal, then one of the online readers is far cheaper and indeed even handier. Especially if ones family is multi-linqual.

- If reading/discussing with your friends is the goal, then an online reader makes sense, or even hard-copy

Plus sticking to a single source would logically seem to be a major limiter. And so my anticipation of Accordance on Windows.

But from an everyday point of view (along the lines of influencing ones fellow-ladies), hardcopy is the only realistic solution. I can't imagine recommending Logos and certainly can't imagine them using it. But sharing theological books (most often hardcopy) is FAR more effective. There's a constant conversation bouncing from one idea to the next, book by book being shared.

Indeed, I really wonder exactly how pastors teach with online books. At our church, each Sunday Bible study, we go over the previous week's sermon. Whenever the pastor asks about a key point, it's not often even one person remembers the answer. He's always quite deflated but still hopeful.

Mike Childs

If you download your resources to your computer, doesn't L4 and L5 run as independently as Libronix? And doesn't L4 and L5 download most of your books to your computer? If my internet connection fails, all of my Logos resources are still available.

There must be something here that I don't understand. Would you explain?

Of course, I Logos goes out of business the time might come when new computer operating systems no longer support any Logos software. But I doubt Logos has the legal right to remove DRM, and distribute the copyrighted material without DRM. No company would have that right.

It should not be too difficult to convert a Logos book to pdf or another format. Of course, no one would want to do that so long as you can run Logos software, because it would be far less functional. But you could read it.

Paper books do not last forever, either, you know.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442738#Comment_442738

There is no reason why a virtual box install of Logos 4/5 can not be kept. The question of course then becomes what happens if the vendor of the virtual box software goes out of business? And so it becomes the question that keeps on asking but is never truly satisfied. While it would be a tremendous loss if it ever happene that for reasons unknown I could not access my Logos x library. The only thing I can count on is nothing is ever going to separate me from the love of God.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442759#Comment_442759

If you download your resources to your computer, doesn't L4 and L5 run as independently as Libronix? And doesn't L4 and L5 download most of your books to your computer? If my internet connection fails, all of my Logos resources are still available.

Yes, as long as you don't ever have to upgrade to a machine/OS combination that no longer runs the last version of Logos that was created before Logos went out of business.

Evan Boardman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442765#Comment_442765

What if you lose your sight? What if...what if...,what if....[:P]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442758#Comment_442758

personally there's a point where the Logos purchasing process becomes almost a hobby (I can't wait for Matthew to respond to that).

I see nothing wrong with enjoying a large Logos library for the sheer personal pleasure of it. [:D] If 5,000 books doesn't make you happy, try 10,000 books.

I still do not regret trading in my other hobbies and focusing on Logos exclusively. I have not preached in years and am not employed by any ministry. Logos is good for stay-at-home Dads who just want to be home-bodies raising a bunch of little ones to follow the Lord.

(hope I did not disappoint you, Denise [;)])

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442765#Comment_442765

This is kind of an interesting conversation, since people seem to have 'really short memories'.

All that really has to happen is just a slight change in any one of the existing operating systems (Windows/Mac); not necessarily a new version etc. So unless you get it into a virtual box, it's very similar to Libronx, working for some and not for others.

Then there's lack of support. Essentially Dave is 'it' for a Logos product just 3 years ago, and another just months back. People say 'Logos4 XP?' So even if the operating system doesn't change, if a user has 'a problem', you really need to figure on solving it yourself.

But responding to Michael, for me (and I'd assume some others), I'm not on-board with Bob & Co's theological and programming directions. So I want an environment I can manage, fix myself, etc. I've no confidence in the Logos4/5 architecture with its indexer and databases that constantly need to be re-built with a (internet) download.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442773#Comment_442773

personally there's a point where the Logos purchasing process becomes almost a hobby (I can't wait for Matthew to respond to that).

I see nothing wrong with enjoying a large Logos library for the sheer personal pleasure of it. If 5000 books doesn't make you happy, try 10,000 books.

I'm finding an unexpected reward from having such a large library (9851 resources, probably over 10,000 if you count all the ones I've hidden):

I've been able to help out Joseph Turner in his project of compiling a Personal Book copy of the Denver Seminary annotated bibliographies of Old Testament and New Testament reference resources, with links to the Logos resources. It turns out I have most of the books in those bibliographies. I hope this turns out to be of some help to others.

Another reason why I've gone crazy purchasing books is that when I was actively serving as an MVP, there were sometimes occasions when I would need to help a user out with a problem they were having in a particular book. Even now I sometimes help people out doing research on some topic, so having a large library to search through comes in handy.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442773#Comment_442773

Matthew, you NEVER disappoint!

And Rosie as well with all your help. Very valuable people in this large world of ours.

Schezic

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442769#Comment_442769

What if you lose your sight? What if...what if...,what if....

Have Y'all pondered this concept?:

IF a Butterfly lost it's wings ... Would it be a Butterwalk?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442808#Comment_442808

Schezic, you're way too happy with Windows8. Calm down!

Douglas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442811#Comment_442811

lol

Schezic

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442811#Comment_442811

Schezic, you're way too happy with Windows8. Calm down!

You can try to bring me down to your grumpy old level. It won't work. Life is Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious !!!!!!! [:D]

Bob Pritchett

I'm working hard to make sure we don't go out of business. :-)

But if we do, Mitchell is right: Another company/group would find our very large customer base to be worth maintaining / buying rights to the code / licenses / etc.

Worst case, some open-source project / team would probably emerge to hack the DRM and support the system moving forward -- as long as their was a substantial user base. Your biggest risk would be a product with a small customer base; large customer bases seem to survive and support themselves even if the entire business infrastructure disappears. It's hard to think of any 20th century brand / technology / platform that doesn't have a community collecting / supporting / documenting it.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442815#Comment_442815

I assume most of this has been covered but i never saw it a lll in one post but was skimming quickly. Logos is out of business …. you still own ever work, and while you may need to use an emulator to run windows 8 on your windows 20 computer it will still work. Mobile apps of course will be frozen where you had them (no new features or ability to download other books. I have some orphaned software, like my New Oxford annotated Library I keep a copy of MacOS 8 on my computer to run it and a couple other Apps. I do not lose the investment of buying it only the ability to use it on my modern mac has meant i need legacy stuff to keep it running. People never lose the ownership of items only the functionality of the internet related items. If Logos 7 requires you to access things from the net in order to do anything, yes then there might be an issue but there are plenty of areas out there where people have little to no connectivity and I doubt Logos would ever be foolish enough to make things completely dependant on the internet. I was amazed to hear a famous person (some actress) talk about how she and her husband refuse to have wifi in their home, their children complain but she wants their home a quiet spot, if they need on the internet they go to the family computer. I personally have wifi but no cell service.

-Dan

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442826#Comment_442826

I'm working hard to make sure we don't go out of business. :-)

But if we do, Mitchell is right: Another company/group would find our very large customer base to be worth maintaining / buying rights to the code / licenses / etc.

Worst case, some open-source project / team would probably emerge to hack the DRM and support the system moving forward -- as long as their was a substantial user base. Your biggest risk would be a product with a small customer base; large customer bases seem to survive and support themselves even if the entire business infrastructure disappears. It's hard to think of any 20th century brand / technology / platform that doesn't have a community collecting / supporting / documenting it.

Thanks for explaining your position Bob. I know that Logos has a large customer base. Could you give some current stats of just how large that base is? e.g. total Logos accounts, total Logos paying customers etc.? I asked this same question on another thread recently but thought it would be worth asking here since the topic is currently being discussed.

Scott E. Mahle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442826#Comment_442826

It's hard to think of any 20th century brand / technology / platform that doesn't have a community collecting / supporting / documenting it.

Hostess [:'(]

Silent Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442808#Comment_442808

What if you lose your sight? What if...what if...,what if....

Have Y'all pondered this concept?:
IF a Butterfly lost it's wings ... Would it be a Butterwalk?

[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442851#Comment_442851

Could you give some current stats of just how large that base is? e.g. total Logos accounts, total Logos paying customers etc.?

I bet the "competition" would love to see those stats and peek under the hood.

David Kirk Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/442884#Comment_442884

It seems digital books are the future so it strengthens Logos's future. Libraries are shedding entire rooms of books to make digital media centers where students can use their electronic devices. I have the IPad and just bought the iPad mini and my library runs exclusively off those. I could never see myself using a desktop computer to read which is why I got logos only a year ago. If Apple or Amazon go out of business I am also out since I have so many paid or Kindle volumes.