Question for Brian Williams - Preaching the Word Series - The Song of Solomon - Vyrso edition

Hello Brian / Logos,

I noticed the newest edition to the Preaching the Word Commentary Series is out in Vyrso:

The Song of Solomon: An Invitation to Intimacy

Before buying it in Vyrso, is there a chance that a Logos version could be added to the newest PtW update and if so will there be a credit/upgrade for those who may have purchased the Vyrso edition.

Also, in this case is there really that much of a difference in the Vyrso and Logos edition of a commentary such as this?

Thank you for getting it into Logos one way or another regardless!

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Simon’s Brother

If this has been put in Vyrso format this is an absolute disgrace. Resources heavily dependent upon bible references are riddled with error in reference links and Logos has not intention of fixing them.

Buyer beware if you purchase this as a Vyrso resource. Even Bob Pritchett has said these sort of resources really should be done as Vyrso format and errors wont' be fixed:

And if this was a Logos Edition I'd have out team re-tag it, even at a loss. But with thousands of batch-processed titles, each selling very few units and generating tiny margins, we simply can't afford to do that for Vyrso.

our intention is to license most "Bible reference" content for Logos Editions and use Vyrso for fiction, Christian living, etc.

source: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/56892/408237.aspx#408237

Bob it makes me really wonder what is going on at Logos when we have a resource part of a Logos set, that is a commentary and even by your own admissions should not be done as a Vyrso book, show up as a Vyrso book.

I am currently looking at the chapter on Ephesians in the companion volume to the product discussed in the reference post as I am currently doing a unit on Ephesians as part of my Theology certificate just to see what the author says on Ephesians as an overview. In just a couple of paragraphs every scripture reference mentioned should point to Ephesians - that is clear from the context and yet all the links take you to Genesis, except the cases where there is no link because of a typographical error that resulted in the reference being ignored completely. For these couple of paragraphs I have submitted typos even though Bob you say you are going to ignore them , I am working through making community notes now on these couple of paragraphs as time allows but still have a fair bit to go but a this point Bob the screen shot should be pretty evident.

That's why we discontinued letting third-parties make "Logos" ebooks -- we weren't happy with the quality.

And your happy with producing this sort of 'quality' yourself. The mind boggles.

Bob I have total respect for your and your integrity which why this makes it even more of an issue for me , and issue that I am not going to let go and will continue to highlight every time it requires. I am sorry Bob but this is not you or your level of integrity to allow your company to put out this sort of poor quality and put your name to it. What progress have you made to prevent these sort of resources ever ending up in Vyrso format.

PS I am not against the Vyrso model, just some very poor choices of what is being put into it. A quick check of my library show I have 652 ebooks ie Vyrso books some will have been free, a lot note as I don't' go for Amish or Romance Novels. I will continue to support they Vyrso model by buying titles that interest me so that number will only grow and I will continue to highlight when you get this model wrong in terms of choice of book.

NB.Mick

I noticed the newest edition to the Preaching the Word Commentary Series is out in Vyrso: The Song of Solomon: An Invitation to Intimacy

Paul,

thanks for this thread, I would never have expected to find a commentary from a "real" series in Vyrso - since the preview was interesting, I ordered it immediately.

Hope the bible references are'nt too bad and maybe we can add other missing references via Community Notes.

Mick

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/444139#Comment_444139

Replying to myself instead of editing for the sake of RSS feed users:

Now that I have the book, the issues are as expected and should be taken into account by those of you contemplating to buy it:

the author of course cites other commentaries such as AY, Keil-Delitzsch... and of course there are no links in the Vyrso book. (indicated in green boxes below)
the known error applies, that references given with chapter&verse only (implicitly meant to refer to the book under consideration, i.e. Song of Songs) wrongly refer to the last referenced biblical book (indicated in red below).

Other than that, it seems to be a fine book at a very affordable price

Logos typically isn't able to adress these issue in a Vyrso centext (hence it's a bad decision to put commentaries up here in the firstplace - but then again, I could get it in an instant instead of waiting years for it to be released). Neverheless I reported the wrong bible references (not the missing resource references) to Logos, just to get this onto their list and they want us to..

I'v started putting some Community Notes into group "Typos" to remediate this for us users.

Brian Williams

Hey Paul, Andrew, and N.B.!

I hope you all are having a great Christmas season!

As you've noted this ebook is a good Logos candidate, sometimes these sort of ebooks slip through the cracks. We do our best to sort the content that publishers send our way and decide if the ebook would be a fit for Vyrso or Logos. I apologize that this ebook doesn't fit your standards of link tagging!

I'll pull this ebook down for the time being and have our staff confirm the location this ebook should be located. If you have already purchased the ebook you will still be able to access the title, it will just not be for sale.

Paul - for the time being if you have purchased the Vyrso ebook and we transition the ebook to a Logos edition we update your resource free of charge.

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/444163#Comment_444163

Hey Brian thank you for the consideration! I understand this isn't always within Logos' control but looking forward to the outcome either way.

Thanks again!

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/444163#Comment_444163

Thank you Brian for re-considering how this particular title should be built.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/444163#Comment_444163

Thank you Brian for taking this up so fast!

This resoure really deserves to be a "real" Logos book with working links etc.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/444339#Comment_444339

Links to scripture references should work even if it is a Vyrso resource. This is the claim made on the Vyrso web site. Until Logos start fixing Vryso resources - which Bob refuses to do or removes that claim from the Vyrso website, they are engaging in misleading advertising. The ball is in Logos court and they so far continue to ignore the problem and in doing so give the impression they believe it is ok to be misleading in their advertising. Have no expectation of other linking or tagging in a Vysro resource. I find it sad as a company they keep burying their heads in the sand over this issue and allow themselves to be put in a position where their integrity looks to be lacking. I don't believe that is their intent but it is what they are doing in reality by their inaction to remove the misleading advertising which is their only option if they refuse to fix their book building process to ensure their advertising claims are met.

Brian Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/444339#Comment_444339

NB - Not a problem! We have decided to hold this ebook for the foreseeable future until we can make it a Logos edition. Thanks for your help in pointing out the need to have it Logos!

Brian Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/444518#Comment_444518

Andrew - Thank you for your thoughtful critique! I apologize that you feel we have been misleading in our advertising. We are continually trying to refine our automated system, and as Bob has referenced previously:

As many people have pointed out, there's a reason we clearly separated the Vyrso and Logos brands; we are simply unable to give the EPUBs that go into Vyrso the same level of attention and quality control that we give Logos Editions. We process the EPUBs automatically with scripts, and do not have a hand-editing phase in the process.

We value your opinion, I apologize that we have not lived up to your expectations. Feel free to let me know how we can better meet your needs with Vyrso.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/445293#Comment_445293

We have decided to hold this ebook for the foreseeable future until we can make it a Logos edition. Thanks for your help in pointing out the need to have it Logos!

Thanks Brian! I'm glad to see that you are taking care of user feedback here.

I saw yesterday that it's available again in the Vyrso store. Glad to see that many people may now pick it up at a "Vyrso price point" and I think we users can help each other out with the references until you can make it into a Logos edition (whenever this may be).

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/445301#Comment_445301

The answer is simple Brian and I don't understand why you and Bob don't get it. Sales are being put before integrity. If a book put into ebook format can't meet the advertising claims then don't do it. This is not about me, it's about truth in advertising. It's about a group of people who ate Christians that seem to think lying in the name of business is ok. By putting this book back on the Vyrso web site Logos is actively perpetuating a lie and knowingly misleading customers about its quality. Logos as a company has lost my respect totally as a result of this action.

We are continually trying to refine our automated system, and as Bob has referenced previously:

As many people have pointed out, there's a reason we clearly separated the Vyrso and Logos brands; we are simply unable to give the EPUBs that go into Vyrso the same level of attention and quality control that we give Logos Editions. We process the EPUBs automatically with scripts, and do not have a hand-editing phase in the process.

I fully understand the limitation of the current system and so do Logos but they persist in knowingly using this formats for books that are never going to live up to the advertising. The one day we might get it right, its not a justification for misleading your customers today. Bob was not addressing the issue but wiping his hands of dealing with it because the hole he has dug is so deep he's not sure how to get out of it. Please don't refer to Bob's statements when then are nothing more than mere excuses. There is no way around the fact the product and the advertising do not match and Logos by their own admissions of the limitations know it. That's about all Bob's statement does at this point.

Why is this such an issue because scripture makes it an issue. No where in scripture do I find a business person exempt from being honest when it comes to their work. Proverbs comes to mind on this topic.

Proverbs 12:17 (ESV)
¹⁷Whoever speaks the truth gives honest evidence, but a false witness utters deceit.

Logos is not giving honest evidence in the advertising about the standard of Vyrso books given the books they are choosing to knowingly publishing under this format that will by their nature never be able to live up to that advertising.

Proverbs 11:1 (ESV)
¹A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is his delight.

Proverbs 20:23 (ESV)

²³Unequal weights are an abomination to the LORD, and false scales are not good.

The scales Logos is using in measuring the quality of some of the books they are choosing to publish under this format are unequal.

Logos has drawn a line in the sand that says sales come before integrity and I can no longer respect or recommend them to anyone anymore.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/445405#Comment_445405

Glad to see that many people may now pick it up at a "Vyrso price point" and I think we users can help each other out with the references until you can make it into a Logos edition (whenever this may be).

What's more important Mick. Truth or getting a bargain at the expense of truth. For everything there is an opportunity cost. And in this case the opportunity cost is truth. That's to big a cost for me to give up. And by purchasing this substandard resource its only going to lead the publishers and Logos to think there is no need to do the resource correctly because its selling - and for every copy that does sell makes it all that more harder for it to get through a pre-pub if it ever gets to that point.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/445557#Comment_445557

Andrew,

What's more important Mick. Truth or getting a bargain at the expense of truth.

I beg to differ. This is a great resource. It lacks the "Original Logos Quality", and that is not at the expense of truth, that is what Logos has been very open to admit in relation to Vyrso products and what has to be expalined over and over again in the forums when people don't understand that there is a value difference between a Logos resource and e.g. a kindle book or a pdf.

Vyrso doesn't work well with commentary type resources; actually there are four out of over ten thousand Vyrso books classified as "commentary" (datatype-wise, these are still only monographs)

by purchasing this substandard resource its only going to lead the publishers and Logos to think there is no need to do the resource correctly because its selling

I don't think so. Logos know pretty well that selling commentaries in Vyrso is wrong and that the inevitable errors (and the user outcry over these) will make Vyrso and Logos look bad.

for every copy that does sell makes it all that more harder for it to get through a pre-pub if it ever gets to that point.

Logos probably won't make this a "collect pre-pub commitment and let's produce it afterwards" resource. If they wanted to, they would have put it onto Pre-Pub instead of re-opening it for Vyrso. I fully expect them to just "make it available" one day on a fixed schedule - if the publisher concurs. But this day may be some time in the future. Until then, people have the chance to buy this resource - which is not a bad thing overall, despite the wrong references.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/445585#Comment_445585

what Logos has been very open to admit in relation to Vyrso products and what has to be expalined over and over again in the forums when people don't understand that there is a value difference between a Logos resource and e.g. a kindle book or a pdf.

Mick I understand the difference.

This is a great resource."

Not suggesting otherwise

is not at the expense of truth,

I am sorry you think having openly misleading advertising on their website is not doing so at the expense of truth. Logos are being dishonest, they know it and are choosing to continue in doing so, hence I beg to differ greatly on that point. I was once like you, but have seen too much compromise from Logos and their out of control marketing machine to be like that anymore. Logos is blatantly misleading customers when they put these sort of resources in Vyrso format and then make claims like this on their website.

Even you pointed out the problem in this thread earlier with the current resource under discussion.

Another Vyrso resource which I 'haven't even finished working through 1 chapter yet has 62 instances of where it fails to live up to the above advertising claim because the reference either takes to Genesis instead of Ephesians or it takes you nowhere because the link is missing due to a typographical error. (This does not include the numbers spelling and other typographical issues which I am overlooking at this point, though other users in other threads have pointed out any sort of typo invalidates Logos claims about being able to search your whole library.

If we were talking about the odd error I would not being raising this. But we are talking about endemic errors in resources that never had any hope of living up to the Logos adverting claims on the Vyrso website and yet they went ahead with putting them in eBook format anyway knowing the limitations which you now have chose to repeat again only further re-enforcing Logos knows they are misleading customers when the put these sort of books into e-book format, even after complaints have been raised they choose to continue in the lie.

So Mick whether you agree or not, this to me is exchanging the truth for a lie; it Is putting sales before integrity, it is taking a bargain at the expense of truth. It is misleading and it is wrong. And is is not in line with scripture to do so.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/445544#Comment_445544

The answer is simple Brian and I don't understand why you and Bob don't get it. Sales are being put before integrity. If a book put into ebook format can't meet the advertising claims then don't do it. This is not about me, it's about truth in advertising. It's about a group of people who ate Christians that seem to think lying in the name of business is ok. By putting this book back on the Vyrso web site Logos is actively perpetuating a lie and knowingly misleading customers about its quality. Logos as a company has lost my respect totally as a result of this action.

Andrew, I'm sorry you felt misled. I'm also sorry that somehow we went from "Bob I have total respect for your and your integrity" to "a group of people who are Christians that seem to think lying in the name of business is ok."

Though I'm not really sure how I fell so far in your esteem in just five days, during which I was enjoying Christmas with my family out of town and hadn't even seen this thread or given any instructions to our team. :-)

As I've explained before, Vyrso is a largely automated solution. We are fed books created by the publishers, the same way they feed them to Amazon.com, BN.com, etc. We then run them through an automated processing system to tag obvious Bible references. We do not hand edit or evaluate each title, though we attempt to intercept "would be better as a Logos edition" resources by looking at a spreadsheet of metadata and "turning off" resources we don't think fit Vyrso.

We have different licenses for Vyrso and Logos Editions. We can not simply look at a Bible commentary submitted to the Vyrso store and choose to make it a Logos Edition; that requires a separate contract with the publisher and much more involved process.

I think your accusations are over the top and inappropriate. We have clearly disclosed how we process Vyrso books. We do make simplistic, general marketing statements like "Vyrso shows you the Bible passages that your ebooks reference." And that's true, except where the automatic reference tagger makes a mistake or is unable to parse a reference.

We also say that in Logos Editions you can search for words. We do not include a caveat that you can't search for words that were typed incorrectly, or misspelled, or accidentally not transcribed from the paper edition.

Would it be "more honest" to say "Vyrso shows you most Bible passages that your ebooks reference, if it's able to parse them accurately with an automated tool."? Yes, but I don't think it's necessary or reasonable. Is that really the standard you're holding us to?

By failing to describe every possible weakness,bug, or problem in the system we are transformed into people you can actually infer "think lying in the name of business is ok."? Really? You're looking into our hearts?

We also say it runs on Android devices. But I'm pretty sure there are Android devices it doesn't work on -- old versions, weird small-market Chinese-made phones, etc. Should we replace "Runs on iOS and Android devices" with an itemized list of 9,000 Android devices and the result of our testing on each? (Or, since we can't test on each, say -- in the spirit of not lying -- "Runs on some of the iOS and Android devices we have tested."

Logos has no secrets. There's no advantage to "lying" to get sales -- we have a money-back guarantee! What good would it do us to lie to get a sale that could then be undone after the lie was discovered? We answer every question and explain everything in excruciating detail here in the forums. I can't imagine how we could be more transparent, other than turning all of our marketing copy into hundreds of pages of legalese -- no firm statements, every word couched with a conditional, every paragraph slathered with caveats and carve-outs. But I don't think our users really expect or want that, and I don't agree that it's a higher level of integrity.

Someone counted and reported that FOUR commentaries slipped through in the 10,000 resources that were auto-pushed to Vyrso.com. Brian took down the resource you complained about immediately. It turns out it was "re-posted" by the automated uploading process; Brian has just taken it down again and we're now investigating what happened. (We're a little slower hunting down process problems this week, with so many people out for the holidays.)

but they persist in knowingly using this formats for books that are never going to live up to the advertising.

Not true. (But I'll show you the respect of not now accusing you of intentional lying; I'll presume you just don't know the facts.) We aren't "knowingly" using this format; it's an accidental slip that lets a book through an automated process unintentionally. It is in our interest to do Logos Editions of books better suited to that format. We make almost nothing on Vyrso Editions -- we offer them to ensure a wider library and access to titles we couldn't otherwise offer digitally.

As angry as your ridiculous insinuations about our integrity and internal-motivations make me, I want Logos to be above reproach. So, will you ensure that I know exactly where the "lies" are on the Vyrso pages, and propose the language you consider honest enough? Is there error here: http://vyrso.com/about ?

How would you like to see this copy re-phrased, now that you know what the problem is?

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/445872#Comment_445872

Bob there is much more than than jut four commentaries that have slipped through the crack. There are lots of bible reference type resources, academic inclined titles etc that have been create as Vyrso books that should never have been because the bible references in the text appear simply with a chapter and verse number that rely on a person to have read the surrounding text to make the connection what book of the bible is referenced. You admit yourself these are not going to be properly handle by your automated tools and you continue to put these sort of books under the Vyrso model and use it as an excuse for them not meeting the advertising claims. You've and Brian both continually blame the publisher's saying oh that's the publisher's fault. We just process the text files they give us. . You are relying too much on the third party with the Vyrso model. And now you want me to tell you how to rewrite your advertising. I though you already pay people to work that out for you.

If I have misunderstood anything it is because of the comments of one of your MVP. Maybe you need to instruct them to be a little less vocal on issues they no nothing about and stick to helping people who have issues with how to use the software rather than justify your company to everyone who raises issues they have with your business models and leave those sort of issues for appropriate Logos personnel to answer.

I have no issue with you as a business wanting to be part to be part of the eBook market, but appropriate controls have not been put in place to ensure the product you put into this model is appropriate suited to the limitations of it, you have your blinkers tightly fixed , and put out the same excuse, each time the problem is raised. Any automated tool requires human intervention to verify the validity of the output. What is been put on the website in book descriptions is not even being validated. Your comments here only re-enforce my view that Logos is not longer the company it once was, its no longer a company I can trust and recommend to others.

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/446006#Comment_446006

Just a thought about this whole thing... an important principle to always keep in mind is that we need to interpret anything we read in light of the "literary genre" of the text. Advertising is also a literary genre, and it has it's own rules. Although I totally agree that advertising needs to be honest it seems to me that the Vyrso advertising is well within the bounds of what is commonly understood of as honest advertising. Especially when you keep in mind that Logos has made very clear that it has two product lines, the high-end high-quality Logos, and the low-end, varying quality level Vyrso. Just like car companies. You know what you are getting when you buy a Toyota instead of a Lexus. [:)]

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/446006#Comment_446006

I do believe Brian was quick to address my original question and I'm satisfied with the answer. I'm not sure how the thread turned into something different and now I realize I should have e-mailed you Brian and will do so in the future.

In the same spirit, and on behalf of myself as a Logos user and simple forum volunteer, I request that we let anything else go to private conversation via e-mail or other means.

To put it forwardly Andrew I'm not too jazzed about this thread taken over for any cause with such a combative tone. I'm no forum darling, but I think all of us can do better here.

What do you say?

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/446082#Comment_446082

In the same spirit, and on behalf of myself as a Logos user and simple forum volunteer, I request that we let anything else go to private conversation via e-mail or other means.

To put it forwardly Andrew I'm not too jazzed about this thread taken over for any cause with such a combative tone. I'm no forum darling, but I think all of us can do better here.

What do you say?

My grandson, when he was 5, the day after his transgression, said -- and we will always remember -- "I can do better!" *smile*

I also am a simple forum volunteer and will most certainly in the future strive with all my heart "to do better"! Thank you, Paul, for this post!

Peace to you! Peace to all! May our Peace be from Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Prince of Peace!

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/446082#Comment_446082

To put it forwardly Andrew I'm not too jazzed about this thread taken over for any cause with such a combative tone. I'm no forum darling, but I think all of us can do better here.

What do you say?

Paul this is a public forum the discussion will go where it goes, not always where we like it.

I am so not 'jazzed' with Logos and the way they are operating the Vyrso model producing substandard resources (lower quality than e4 who never produced resources with this many errors) and then selling them with misleading advertising about the quality and functionality.

You call it combative I say I'm simply pointing out the elephant in the room, as painful as that is to me to have to do so. I get no joy out of this, but I can't continue pretending its not happening even if everyone else is happy to do so.