LOGOS seems unbalanced in being Non-Denominational

well I checked out Verbum (which is a cross-platform Catholic library IE LOGOS REPACKAGED for an exclusive Catholic audience.)

My question is: if there is a "Catholic Library" being sold, then when is the "Protestant Library" coming?

I dont actually care about a 'protestant library' as such, but if LOGOS is Non-Denominational, then both sides must be supported, or else neither side. You cant just repackage Logos for Catholics exclusively that isn't right.

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Luigi Sam

ie: Logos Repackaged for Catholics (Verbum) is being advertised by Logos. ( this advertising cost is spread accross all Logos products )

to even this up Logos should spend advertising costs on a Protestant Library too.

Otherwise Protestants are paying for advertising costs of the Catholic version of Logos.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457563#Comment_457563

Otherwise Protestants are paying for advertising costs of the Catholic version of Logos.

do you have factual evidence of such statement or do you simply make empty accusations?

JC54

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457577#Comment_457577

Non-denominational can never mean that an equal amount of time is spent at each different denomination. There are just to many of them,

Plus: the main packages are focussed on protestants, and allthough everyone can buy them, there content is mainly pointed towards protestants. The catholic package is not some sort of saying that catholics are more important, it is saying that catholics are also important. This packages make Logos more non denominatoinal than they were.

MJ. Smith

for an exclusive Catholic audience

If that was Logos' intention, they must be puzzled by their non-Catholic sales which seem to be fairly high. I find it easier to suggest Logos to friends when there are more appropriate base packages for liturgical churches. I am anxiously waiting for the Jewish packages.

if LOGOS is Non-Denominational

I believe their intent is to be pan-denominational.

KJ Niblett

I think you will find that the Catholic Library is a specialist collection
of resources that will predominately suit the needs of Catholics. If you view
the catholic package in the groupings of Bronze, Silver, Gold, Diamond and Platinum
and some of the now redundant packages like original languages and scholars you
will begin to see that it’s just another collection which happens to have some
slightly different branding to differentiate itself from Logos perse.

Maybe you should think of Verbum subsidising your resources, whilst making it
much easier for regular users to access early church writings.

revrari

I think it is fair to say that most of the books offered in Logos come from an evangelical tradition (and incidentally the one in which I stand). Therefore, if they package a set of products especially for Catholics, that is something desirable and necessary. We live in a day and age when the people who use programs such as Logos come from a wide variety of religious traditions. All of these traditions must be afforded equal respect. I am sure that in time we will see packages geared towards specific interest groups within Protestantism, such as Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. In fact we see this already. I don't think that this implies that Logos is pan-denominational. They are a business, not a denomination. As such they must reach out to all groups that can properly fall under the umbrella of legitimate Christianity.

rari.

Bohuslav Wojnar

well I checked out Verbum (which is a cross-platform Catholic library IE LOGOS REPACKAGED for an exclusive Catholic audience.)

My question is: if there is a "Catholic Library" being sold, then when is the "Protestant Library" coming?

I dont actually care about a 'protestant library' as such, but if LOGOS is Non-Denominational, then both sides must be supported, or else neither side. You cant just repackage Logos for Catholics exclusively that isn't right.

We have so-to-say "protestant" version of Logos for quite a while (for me since 1996). Logos is the version. I have never felt it "non-protestant".

P.S. Yes Martha, Jewish version would be a good move.

Ben

You're new here. Lots of people have complained over the years of the dominating amount of Protestant fluff (and non-fluff too) in the packages.

The default Logos library IS the Protestant library.

I also would welcome a Jewish package. Might actually buy one then, depending on what was in it that I don't already own. (Logos user since 2003, still package free.)

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457577#Comment_457577

hi toughski,

do you have factual evidence of such statement or do you simply make empty accusations?

not exactly.

I have the necessary business accounting background to know how costs are spread over the product line. (ie job costing, management accounting, etc tell you that you can/should break down the costs of all running costs, and spread the costs evenly over the end products). This is where I am coming from, Im not saying that they actually do it with this goal in mind, I am just saying that the balance of Advertising is supporting Catholicism by name, and is not supporting Protestantism by name.

In this sense it implies that Catholicism is superior / or worthy of individual focus. and implies support for Catholicism over Protestantism seeing this Repackaging of Logos is done just to suit Catholic request. Are Catholics so not happy with "Non Denominational" standard Logos base packages that they need their own exclusive base packages rebranded as catholic?

Remember Verbum is not a Catholic library set. It is Logos base packages rebranded for Catholics. There is a difference.

I too would be happy with a Jewish Library set. But Verbum is not a "library". As i said it is Logos Rebranded to be exclusively sold to catholics.

Room4more

well I checked out Verbum (which is a cross-platform Catholic library IE LOGOS REPACKAGED for an exclusive Catholic audience.)

My question is: if there is a "Catholic Library" being sold, then when is the "Protestant Library" coming?

I dont actually care about a 'protestant library' as such, but if LOGOS is Non-Denominational, then both sides must be supported, or else neither side. You cant just repackage Logos for Catholics exclusively that isn't right.

Luigi,

Myself and some others, hint hint, are probably the oldest L2 users here, coming and stemming from the good’ole days, but they are gone for now – just a memory.

Your statement, and most of the statements above, do have merit and the “non-denominational’ packages thingiee has been raised before – and still will be in the future. Most of us are secure in our respective persuasions and would tend to agree w/you.

But it comes down to “you can’t please everyone all the time”, so we pick and choose what we need to study. Preach, teach, etc., etc., and are comfortable……[not all of us use the ""package system""]

Hope this helps…

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457619#Comment_457619

Luigi: Why the hate for Catholics?

Lets just cut to the chase and get this over with, get it out of your system and move on.

As far as Verbum, Yes, it is just Logos repackaged with some specific resources Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Orthodox people have a special interest in.

So what?

As far as how Logos spends it's money on Advertising, buildings, computers etc. - what business is that of yours/ours?

Honestly- None, it's really none of our business.

Logos is a company, period.

Ford builds cars and trucks. Some people like cars, some people like trucks.

Do you write to them and say it's not fair that car people are paying for Truck advertising ?

You say you have a business accounting background, then you must understand marketshare? Logos is a business, it's not a church, it's not a ministry, it's a business and one wise enough to see changing market patterns, holes in marketings, changes in computing usage etc.

Thus Logos is cross platform in mobile computing, desktop/laptop computing and multiple disciplines theologically.

It's simply a business model of supply and demand in response to changing market indicators.

Buy what you want and others will do the same.

I don't see anyone wanting Logos to stop selling protestant materials.

Perhaps protesting less, would provide more study time with Logos excellent resources.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457618#Comment_457618

In this sense it implies that Catholicism is superior / or worthy of individual focus. and implies support for Catholicism over Protestantism seeing this Repackaging of Logos is done just to suit Catholic request. Are Catholics so not happy with "Non Denominational" standard Logos base packages that they need their own exclusive base packages rebranded as catholic?

Remember Verbum is not a Catholic library set. It is Logos base packages rebranded for Catholics. There is a difference.

The standard packages are not "Non Denominational" if by the term you mean that they represent all sides equally and fairly and so would be equally useful to all. They are "Non Denominational" in the same sense as a local church is that describes itself as Non Denominational, namely a mixture of various forms of American Protestantism. The Roman Catholics (and some Lutherans too) did not set up parochial schools so that God could be in the schools, but rather because a differently understood God was in the schools, an understanding that seemed hostile to our understanding of the Bible. The closest to truly "Non Denominational" was the old Original Languages Library, but that is a different topic...

While they are a company and NOT a ministry, Logos Bible Software's history has it coming out of, and serving the needs of American Evangelicalism. Yet very early on, they had some "biggies" that were of interest outside that market, like the Abridged TDNT and eventually TDNT, and for a while the Jerome Commentary. Because of these biggies, some people outside of American Evangelicalism have adopted Logos. But we look at most of the material in the base packages and are, at BEST, not interested.

Now personally, I am a Lutheran, and we have been, at best, at the edge of American Protestantism, and so I have more than a little sympathy for Roman Catholics, even when I disagree with at least some points of view in it, since they have been even more outside the mainstream here.

And so I understand why rebranding for different markets is valuable. Just a short list of reasons why Catholics would want a different base package...

1) Different canon default settings. A Catholic when doing a whole bible search looks at more books than a American Protestant. By having different base packages, you can set it to default to the way the typical user would expect things.

2) Different standard translations. Not to get into fights about which is the best translation, but there are different standard ones in different communities.

3) Different standard secondary sources. While there are a few who claim they read and study nothing but the Bible, most Christians read the Bible and understand the Bible in dialogue with those who have gone before us. Now, while I would claim that these sources have no independent authority OUTSIDE of the Bible, I am more than a bit interested in how other smart people with different world views were able to handle a passage that befuddles me. A Roman Catholic would find Thomas Aquinas more helpful than John Calvin in this.

4) History of antagonism. While the fights between the camps are not as hot and heavy as they used to be, there is a history of mistrust, often justifiable on all sides. Having a separate brand label of Verbum lets the Catholics hear that they and their needs are actually being taken seriously.

And while they are differently labeled, I would hardly describe them as exclusive. If I were starting out today, I don't know onto which side I would fall.

SDG

Ken McGuire

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457632#Comment_457632

You say you have a business accounting background, then you must understand marketshare? Logos is a business, it's not a church, it's not a ministry, it's a business and one wise enough to see changing market patterns, holes in marketings, changes in computing usage etc.

Thanks, again, I was going to say 'something' and before I could type it you came up with a much better answer.

WHY is LOGOS selling Catholic Library sets? Why is LOGOS adding Catholic resources at a rate that requires three jobs to pay for?

There are twice as many Catholics as there are all others that use the name "Christ" combined.

There are Catholic libraries available from Basic up to Capstone.

[[see http://scripturestudysoftware.com/ ]]

[[Warning: do not click that link unless you want to see ‘Catholic’ things – you have been warned]]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457636#Comment_457636

Well said Ken, great post.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457640#Comment_457640

Well said Ken, great post.

[Y]

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457636#Comment_457636

Ken McGuire

“If I were starting out today, I don't know onto which side I would fall.”

If you are interested you have just a few more days to pickup one of the Catholic Libraries at the intro price. [[link in my prior post]]

Verbum is not a library – it is a set of switches within Logos 5 that make things easier for the Catholic user to use a Catholic library. All one need do to switch between Logos 5 and Verbum is throw a switch.

Search the forum for Verbum and find out how to switch between Logos 5 and Verbum and back again

[[most just set and forget]]

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457636#Comment_457636

i like your reply Ken.

I just want to point out the "Big" picture here however:

Catholics require a Rebranded Catholic Logos ( and I agree it has alot of non catholic resources ) - the point is that they require a 'exclusive' catholic Branded Logos version of all base packages ( or the equiv concept ).

There isn't an exclusive Baptist Labelled Logos
There isn't an exclusive Protestant Labelled Logos.

If there is a Catholic Labelled Logos - and only a Catholic Labelled Base Package is provided then this shows that Catholics seem to have no intention of playing nice with companies that are trying to be 'non-denominational' by requiring them to make a Catholic repackaged version that they can call thier own. They show that they are unwilling to give as much business to Logos.

My concern is that Logos 'non-denominational' integrity is compromised. I feel like I wouldn't buy a base product now unless I got the Protestant rebadged version. ( ie now Logos base products are not cool unless i've got a label / Sub label clearly marking it too: ie Logos "The Protestant" Base Package).

Maybe someone else can better reword the issue I am trying to raise with more impact.

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457644#Comment_457644

@Ken McGuire

actually there are some exclusive books too. like the Maryology one

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457639#Comment_457639

There are twice as many Catholics as there are all others that use the name "Christ" combined.

numbers.

With all respect I'd like to know how many Catholics are still taught that it is the Church leaderships responsibility to read the bible, not lay members? Again with all respect perhaps I am speaking of the older generation ( and I dont mean to put all lay Catholics in this basket, I am just saying because it is a noteworthy and valid point )

for this reason, maybe ( just a guess ) comparing this to protestants lay members that read and study the bible, maybe perhaps the numbers even up a little?

In fact, along this line of thought ( as a guess ) maybe there are less substantial catholic resources in existence that are designed for catholic lay people for this reason too?

When we combine the uses of Logos for Protestants:

1. wide leadership use

2. wide lay people use

compared to Catholics:

1. potential leadership use

2. seemingly a far smaller % of lay catholics will be interested. ( again I dont mean to disrespect the catholic laity who take bible study seriously )

Im just saying that numbers don't necessarily warrant that Logos's time is best spent on Catholic's due to a church attendance head count once a year.

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457646#Comment_457646

For the better part of a decade and a half, Logos offered predominantly "Protestant" resources and packages and there was only one bundle set that contained anything "Catholic". What is happening with Verbum is an attempt to balance things out and acknowlege that Greek and Hebrew are not the only major ancient languages in which Christian literature has been written, but that Latin too should be included. There is a catch-up wave of Catholic material currently going through the pre-pub system. You can expect periodic waves of specialized material of various types.

Verbum: The New Logos for Catholics

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godandthemachine/2012/11/verbum-the-new-logos-for-catholics/

The links you posted are different than Verbum in purpose, and scope of content. it is advertised there as "Logos supports Catholicism" in effect. This is different.

Here is the Verbum link ( ie it goes to a "select your BASE PACKAGE" web page NOT A library or bundle as you aim to compare it to.

http://www.logos.com/catholic#compare

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457646#Comment_457646

There isn't an exclusive Baptist Labelled Logos

There are much better authorities on Baptists than I, but my understanding is that All Baptists believe in Congregational Autonomy, and that people should be baptized by immersion after they are able to state the faith on their own after an "age of reason." After that, things can be rather wild and chaotic, at least to an outsider. I have run into Baptists who insist they have never heard of the preexistence of Christ mentioned in church, for example.

There isn't an exclusive Protestant Labelled Logos.

To those of us outside the stream of American Evangelicalism, it looks like that is what the Logos base packages already ARE. Yeah, they are better than when I first got Logos a dozen years ago, but they still seem dominated by stuff from American Evangelicalism.

Exclusive, no. But what do you mean by exclusive? You admit that the Catholic packages do have some outside material. But you recognize that the focus is on "them". Likewise, for those of us outside of American Evangelicalism, we recognize that while there is some outside material, the focus is on "them".

Speaking as a Lutheran, it is almost funny how old Lutheran reviews of the Logos offerings all agreed on the same thing, since ELCA, LC-MS, and WELS don't agree on much of anything. But they all said to grab Original Languages Library and supplement it with Lutheran stuff.

As I pointed out in a thread about the demise of Original Languages Library, it is obvious that the "Christian" market in this country is dominated by two groups - Evangelicals and Roman Catholics. They are the ones with Bookstores in most communities. And those of us outside of, or on the periphery of those groups either set up our own independent rivals, or settle for the crumbs from the tables out there.

The current Logos base packages are obviously designed for the Evangelical Protestants. Exclusive? No. But Dominant, yes.

SDG

Ken McGuire

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457654#Comment_457654

With all respect I'd like to know how many Catholics are still taught that it is the Church leaderships responsibility to read the bible, not lay members? Again with all respect perhaps I am speaking of the older generation ( and I dont mean to put all lay Catholics in this basket, I am just saying because it is a noteworthy and valid point )

V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

131 “And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting font of spiritual life.” Hence “access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful.”

132 “Therefore, the ‘study of the sacred page’ should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too—pastoral preaching, catechetics, and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place—is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture.” (94)

133 The Church “forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful … to learn ‘the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ,’ by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. ‘Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.’ ” (2653; 1792)

Catholic Church, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Ed., 37 (Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference, 2000).

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457646#Comment_457646

I am not a Roman Catholic, I am a Capstone Logos Verbum user for several reasons. Despite my dislike for much of the politics of the RC church, I usually appreciate there scholarship greatly. In general I often find many of the commentaries by evangelical offensive theologically (I will not discuss theological issues hear since the forum guides expressly forbid it), Verbum works well for Catholics, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Lutherans, and Orthodox Christians and anyone who wants to draw from the rich background of the historic Church. Verbum allows as a default the use of the apocryphal books as scripture, which many Logos users might find very offensive. If you want Logos to be completely 'non-denominational' perhaps you should protest the "evangelical" commentary they are funding to produce. Logos is a company, it offers many things for many different users, in offering Verbum, Logos removed what some had seen as a controversial preference selection of catholic/protestant. LOGOS IS A BUISNESS NOT A CHURCH AND ITS BUSINESS INTEGRITY IS IN NO WAY COMPROMISED BY OFFERING USERS A CHOICE.

-Dan

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457640#Comment_457640

Well said Ken, great post.

Yes! Thank you Ken! And Charles for helping me focus in on a great post! Peace to all! And Joy in the Lord!

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457654#Comment_457654

With all respect I'd like to know how many Catholics are still taught that it is the Church leaderships responsibility to read the bible, not lay members? Again with all respect perhaps I am speaking of the older generation ( and I dont mean to put all lay Catholics in this basket, I am just saying because it is a noteworthy and valid point )

1) When teaching adult sunday school, people have marveled at how I was able to pull up so much so fast when questioned on something. Yet in spite of trying to sell it to a few people, I am not aware of any successes, simply because the low end base products were not appealing to my Lutheran students. I have never been around a place where there is really wide lay use.

2) I am aware that there has been a change in emphasis in Roman Catholic circles towards more lay involvement. This was starting even before Vatican 2 and after Vatican 2 has accelerated. But living and working in the secular world, I have found that often it is the Roman Catholics who know their Bibles as well as typical Protestants. Average Catholics certainly, in my experience, know their Faith BETTER than typical Protestants. I have been amazed at how the full Catechism of the Catholic Church has been read and even studied by the faithful. I am admittedly a bit jealous. I wish that we Lutherans would study our Catechisms as well, and I have heard many Protestants say how they wish they had such valued confirmation instruction as we Lutherans...

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457660#Comment_457660

Luigi, you're cracking me up this morning! Talk about a large cat and hanging a bell on it!

I get the feeling folks don't read their NT (emphasis on sectarianism), their apocrypha (more), or maybe the whole OT (even more).

I easily imagine a book seller in the Davidic quarter of Jerusalem about the time of Necho II ... books on YHWH, El, maybe Asherah (for the folks 'weaving' in the Temple of course). I mean, certainly the book seller's not a ministry, right? It's a business.

But actually I keep my library almost completely free of theology books for the very reason you mention; I get tired of calling in for a refund on the evangelical ones (and I'm evangelical for goodness sakes).

Ram Teodosio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457671#Comment_457671

Many traditional Roman Catholic are bound to read works with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. These are the works that have been pre-approved by a local RC bishop or by the Holy See. (Read for more info: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P2P.HTM).

It is possible that based on Logos marketing studies, they decided that creating Verbum will be the most effective way to market their products to Catholics, which comprises approximately 27% of the US population and 16.5% of the global population.

This doesn't mean Logos caters towards one denomination more than another. It simply means since the majority of the Protestants are already being served by the current Logos offerings, the next set of people are the RCs and other allied denominations, like the Anglicans and Lutherans.

Peace!

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457702#Comment_457702

As a Seventh-day Adventist where does that put me? Meager offerings. Yet I just upgraded to L5 Platinum, cannot afford Diamond or Portfolio. I have some Catholic resources, wish I could get more.

In a Seminary Library, you will find resources from all faiths. How can you intelligently discuss ??? beliefs if you have no primary resource material?

I know what I believe. Talking/reading other material outside my faith, helps me to define or redefine what I believe and I learn where my strengths and weaknesses lie.

My desire: Every thing ever written in Religion and Theology (including non-christian faiths)formatted for Logos Bible Software.

Monroe R Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457654#Comment_457654

Your attitude is about 600 years out of date. Moreover, as others have pointed out, the use of "catholic" resources is not limited to Roman Catholics. These resources are used by Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians and Eastern Orthodox. I am also aware of many well educated protestants who read and use many of these resources.

Bible study, by the laity as well as the clergy, is encouraged in RC, Lutheran, Episcopal and Orthodox parishes that I am familiar with.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457665#Comment_457665

There isn't an exclusive Baptist Labelled Logos

There are much better authorities on Baptists than I, but my understanding is that All Baptists believe in Congregational Autonomy, and that people should be baptized by immersion after they are able to state the faith on their own after an "age of reason." After that, things can be rather wild and chaotic, at least to an outsider. I have run into Baptists who insist they have never heard of the preexistence of Christ mentioned in church, for example.

There isn't an exclusive Protestant Labelled Logos.

To those of us outside the stream of American Evangelicalism, it looks like that is what the Logos base packages already ARE. Yeah, they are better than when I first got Logos a dozen years ago, but they still seem dominated by stuff from American Evangelicalism.

Exclusive, no. But what do you mean by exclusive? You admit that the Catholic packages do have some outside material. But you recognize that the focus is on "them". Likewise, for those of us outside of American Evangelicalism, we recognize that while there is some outside material, the focus is on "them".

Speaking as a Lutheran, it is almost funny how old Lutheran reviews of the Logos offerings all agreed on the same thing, since ELCA, LC-MS, and WELS don't agree on much of anything. But they all said to grab Original Languages Library and supplement it with Lutheran stuff.

As I pointed out in a thread about the demise of Original Languages Library, it is obvious that the "Christian" market in this country is dominated by two groups - Evangelicals and Roman Catholics. They are the ones with Bookstores in most communities. And those of us outside of, or on the periphery of those groups either set up our own independent rivals, or settle for the crumbs from the tables out there.

The current Logos base packages are obviously designed for the Evangelical Protestants. Exclusive? No. But Dominant, yes.

SDG

Ken McGuire

[Y]

Speaking as a Lutheran, it is almost funny how old Lutheran reviews of the Logos offerings all agreed on the same thing, since ELCA, LC-MS, and WELS don't agree on much of anything. But they all said to grab Original Languages Library and supplement it with Lutheran stuff.

SO TRUE!!!!

Xegesis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457646#Comment_457646

Catholics require a Rebranded Catholic Logos ( and I agree it has alot of non catholic resources ) - the point is that they require a 'exclusive' catholic Branded Logos version of all base packages ( or the equiv concept ).

There isn't an exclusive Baptist Labelled Logos

There isn't an exclusive Protestant Labelled Logos.

Your comment reminds me of those who say why do Blacks get their own TV Station with BET(Black Entertainment Television). When the majority dominates the market(Whites with TV, Protestants with Logos), sometimes the minority group of that market gets a different name to help it stand out so others know how to find it.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457713#Comment_457713

Bible study, by the laity as well as the clergy, is encouraged in RC, Lutheran, Episcopal and Orthodox parishes that I am familiar with.

Also worth noting, in general the churches using a lectionary and/or prayer book expose the congregation to more Scripture and those which do not. Call it Bible Study for the non-reader. Now if I could only get more lectionaries into Logos...

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457705#Comment_457705

As a Seventh-day Adventist where does that put me? Meager offerings.

Yes, potential market share does put you at a distinct disadvantage. This is one reason I keep hoping that Logos will open the PB store which has often been mentioned. I see the necessary infrastructure appearing - I'm waiting for that last piece. However, I'll admit the ones I feel the worst for are the non-Trinitarians who not only get few appropriate resources but also are excluded from the Logos community by careless definitions of what we ALL believe, I've never seen a person make a convert of someone they didn't treat with respect.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457806#Comment_457806

Now if I could only get more lectionaries into Logos...

[Y]

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457806#Comment_457806

Bible study, by the laity as well as the clergy, is encouraged in RC, Lutheran, Episcopal and Orthodox parishes that I am familiar with.

Also worth noting, in general the churches using a lectionary and/or prayer book expose the congregation to more Scripture and those which do not. Call it Bible Study for the non-reader. Now if I could only get more lectionaries into Logos...

MJ. This a very good point and a very strong argument for Churches of any denomination to use at least a year long lectionary. Now being part of a "non-denominational" church, I have often experienced with first hand interaction how many "church people" have very little exposure to the Scriptures other than what is spoon fed (I don't mean that derogatorily, it's just all that some every get) to them in the course of preaching. A lectionary adds a certain dynamic to what they may be exposed to.

I vote YES to more lectionaries from diverse sources.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457829#Comment_457829

As far as the topic of Logos being unbalanced in Non-Denominational
content. I find that a strange statement. Most Non-Denominational
congregations that I have been a part of have a pretty diverse
background and so is the diversity in the materials they seek out. I
have yet to meet any Non-Denominational person who has thrown the baby
out with the bath water. They still hold to some of the core beliefs of
the denomination they left, while abandoning the ones that gave them the
most conflict with their understanding of Scripture(in some cases the
conflict is that they were hurt by individuals in authority in those
denominations).

Although Logos doesn't "court" every facet of the
Denominational or Non-Denominational faiths of Christianity they
certainly are multifarious.

Jeffrey S. Robison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457830#Comment_457830

I am more than happy to see Logos offer Verbum. I am not Catholic. I do not hate Catholicism. It is probably easier to "market" a Catholic Collection per se as something different. It is a much more homogeneous group than us Protestants. That would be like nailing jell-o to the wall. There are specific products targeting other groups as well. I own the Classic Baptist Books collection and several reformed products. And there are many more reformed products in the pre-pub. I hope they keep offering a variety. P.S. I own several of those Catholic products too.

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457669#Comment_457669

Logos is a company, it offers many things for many different users, in offering Verbum, Logos removed what some had seen as a controversial preference selection of catholic/protestant.

Why cant the Original Logos Packages be advertised as Logos for Protestants Then?

The words "Logos for Protestants" That is what I want to even it out fairly.

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457671#Comment_457671

I have been amazed at how the full Catechism of the Catholic Church has been read and even studied by the faithful. I am admittedly a bit jealous. I wish that we Lutherans would study our Catechisms as well, and I have heard many Protestants say how they wish they had such valued confirmation instruction as we Lutherans...

Hi Ken,

I did read your post, and thanks for sharing you experience.

Perhaps other stats would be:

the average number of people in any denomination who have read the whole bible at least once.
or the amount of times a person has read a book of the bible right through.

I dont profess that any one denomination has a higher percentage in these, but I suggest that measures which contain significant readings directly from the bible would be better for a fairer comparision.

Im not knocking tutoring, bible study groups, mentoring, basic innnitiation courses, etc as such, im just trying to narrow down the scope a bit of quality "knowing your bible". ie anyone can recite a summary, a small booklet, a sermon, a 5 point sermon etc.

but "knowing your bible" might be best measured by a direct reading statistic.

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457667#Comment_457667

V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

131 “And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting font of spiritual life.” Hence “access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful.”

132 “Therefore, the ‘study of the sacred page’ should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too—pastoral preaching, catechetics, and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place—is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture.” (94)

133 The Church “forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful … to learn ‘the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ,’ by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. ‘Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.’ ” (2653; 1792)

Catholic Church, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Ed., 37 (Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference, 2000).

Hi David,

firstly thanks. I take it that you believe the context implies that catholics should read the bible in private?

Im not accusing you of misquoting, but I double checked the reverence, and it seems that it is possible that the section you have provided could possibly mean "reading during a church service" and not reading the bible in private.

Just so you are aware.

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457684#Comment_457684

I easily imagine a book seller in the Davidic quarter of Jerusalem about the time of Necho II ... books on YHWH, El, maybe Asherah (for the folks 'weaving' in the Temple of course). I mean, certainly the book seller's not a ministry, right? It's a business.

Hi DMB,

when you put it like that, I imaging that such a business would conjure up a 'factual' story for any religion to tell the reader how strong the spiritual powers are if you get such and such a book.

What I mean is yeah its a business. but it is a non-denominational bias business.

Where is the sub label for the normal logos to say: "Logos for Protestants"?
There is a sub label for the Catholic one (Verbus) saying: "Logos for Catholics".

Therefore:

By rights it is only fair.

Otherwise as it stands Logos is saying:

Generic Logos is "Logos for everyone except Catholics" ( and don't complain because we are 'non-denominational')
Logos Verbus for Catholics "Because Catholics wont support Logos as much unless there is a fully Catholic labelled and controlled edition ) and we catholics deserve something better than the wicked 'non-denominational' Generic Logos. The Catholics are not happy with "Catholic library modules" the whole Logos system has to be "Logos for Catholics" Not Logos, but Verbus ( ps Logos greek, Verbus latin)

Do you see what I mean?

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457713#Comment_457713

Your attitude is about 600 years out of date. (....)

Bible study, by the laity as well as the clergy, is encouraged in RC, Lutheran, Episcopal and Orthodox parishes that I am familiar with.

Out of date?

If ( and i mean if ) the "pope" said it in a official way, then it is supposed to be 'infallible' and irrevocable.

Just saying.

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457896#Comment_457896

I am more than happy to see Logos offer Verbum. I am not Catholic. I do not hate Catholicism. It is probably easier to "market" a Catholic Collection per se as something different.

as I said to Dan:
Why cant the Original Logos Packages be advertised as "Logos for Protestants" Then?
The words "Logos for Protestants" That is what I want to even it out fairly.

I am not Catholic. I do not hate Catholicism.

and in reply to you:

The purpose of my posts is not: "I oppose Catholicism "
The purpose of my post is: Catholicism opposes Logos as a "non-denominational" product.

Logos has fought the war of not biasing any denomination, and claims to support them evenly.

However now Logos has ( perhaps unwittingly, perhaps partly not ) broken its own goal but rebranding Logos as Verbum "Logos for Catholics".

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457702#Comment_457702

Many traditional Roman Catholic are bound to read works with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. These are the works that have been pre-approved by a local RC bishop or by the Holy See. (Read for more info: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P2P.HTM).

My point exactly.

Catholics are not interested in a product that is "non-denominational" with "Catholic libraries".
Catholics require a Catholic version of Logos called Verbum.

This conflicts with Logos being 'non-denominational'.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457914#Comment_457914

Im not accusing you of misquoting, but I double checked the reverence, and it seems that it is possible that the section you have provided could possibly mean "reading during a church service" and not reading the bible in private.

So implausible as to make it necessary for me to bow out of all your threads.

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457702#Comment_457702

Many traditional Roman Catholic are bound to
read works with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. These are the works that
have been pre-approved by a local RC bishop or by the Holy See. (Read
for more info: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P2P.HTM).

My point exactly:

Catholics dont want to support a non-denominational product (Logos for all) with Catholic libraries available.
Catholics require a Catholic version of Logos called Verbum.

This confilcts with Logos being non-denominational. Every other denomination gets "Logos for all" with "Baptist Libraries" (for example)

But Catholics get a whole rebadge of the Logos System, called Verbus.

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457925#Comment_457925

I value your input and I didn't have any intention of being ignorant toward you or others.

the whole quote of that reference is:

V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

131 "And such is
the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church
as her support and vigour, and the children of the Church as strength
for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of
spiritual life."[109] Hence "access to Sacred Scripture
ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."[110]

132 "Therefore,
the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred
theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching,
catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the
liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished
and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."[111]

133 The Church
"forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian
faithful... to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by
frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the
Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.[112]

-----------

I just note the things that are usually done in a congregational gathering in point 132:

The ministry of the Word
pastoral preaching
catechetics
all forms of Christian instruction
liturgical homily should hold pride of place

since it is possible that all of these are usually done in a congregational gathering , I;m just saying that the word "Church" in point 133 could mean Church as in frequently & regularly going to church where the word will be read.

is this proposition or conclusion is implausible to you?

I hope by clarifying what I meant that you will at least not think less of me - even if you choose not to read my threads anymore.

regards.

Andrew Blye

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457654#Comment_457654

I rather thought that Logos seems to have quite the Reformed leaning based upon the selection of titles, especially in the lower-level packages. Once upgrading to Platinum it's nice to have some resources from a Wesleyan/Armenian perspective.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/457932#Comment_457932

is this proposition or conclusion is implausible to you?

Yes

Okay I broke my commitment. Read Chapter V of Part II of The Word of God in the Life and Mission of the Church. I'm assuming you don't have it in Logos.