Luigi Sam said:

Otherwise Protestants are paying for advertising costs of the Catholic version of Logos.

do you have factual evidence of such statement or do you simply make empty accusations?

I think it is fair to say that most of the books offered in Logos come from an evangelical tradition (and incidentally the one in which I stand). Therefore, if they package a set of products especially for Catholics, that is something desirable and necessary. We live in a day and age when the people who use programs such as Logos come from a wide variety of religious traditions. All of these traditions must be afforded equal respect. I am sure that in time we will see packages geared towards specific interest groups within Protestantism, such as Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. In fact we see this already. I don't think that this implies that Logos is pan-denominational. They are a business, not a denomination. As such they must reach out to all groups that can properly fall under the umbrella of legitimate Christianity.

rari.

You're new here. Lots of people have complained over the years of the dominating amount of Protestant fluff (and non-fluff too) in the packages. 

The default Logos library IS the Protestant library. 

I also would welcome a Jewish package. Might actually buy one then, depending on what was in it that I don't already own. (Logos user since 2003, still package free.)

Luigi Sam said:

well I checked out Verbum (which is a cross-platform Catholic library IE LOGOS REPACKAGED for an exclusive Catholic audience.)

 My question is: if there is a "Catholic Library" being sold, then when is the "Protestant Library" coming?

 I dont actually care about a 'protestant library' as such, but if LOGOS is Non-Denominational, then both sides must be supported, or else neither side.  You cant just repackage Logos for Catholics exclusively that isn't right. 

Luigi,

Myself and some others, hint hint, are probably the oldest L2 users here, coming and stemming from the good’ole days, but they are gone for now – just a memory. 

Your statement, and most of the statements above, do have merit and the “non-denominational’ packages thingiee has been raised before – and still will be in the future. Most of us are secure in our respective persuasions and would tend to agree w/you. 

But it comes down to “you can’t please everyone all the time”, so we pick and choose what we need to study. Preach, teach, etc., etc., and are comfortable……[not all of us use the ""package system""]

Hope this helps…

Luigi Sam said:

In this sense it implies that Catholicism is superior / or worthy of individual focus. and implies support for Catholicism over Protestantism seeing this Repackaging of Logos is done just to suit Catholic request.  Are Catholics so not happy with "Non Denominational" standard Logos base packages that they need their own exclusive base packages rebranded as catholic?

Remember Verbum is not a Catholic library set. It is Logos base packages rebranded for Catholics. There is a difference. 

The standard packages are not "Non Denominational" if by the term you mean that they represent all sides equally and fairly and so would be equally useful to all.  They are "Non Denominational" in the same sense as a local church is that describes itself as Non Denominational, namely a mixture of various forms of American Protestantism.  The Roman Catholics (and some Lutherans too) did not set up parochial schools so that God could be in the schools, but rather because a differently understood God was in the schools, an understanding that seemed hostile to our understanding of the Bible.  The closest to truly "Non Denominational" was the old Original Languages Library, but that is a different topic...

While they are a company and NOT a ministry, Logos Bible Software's history has it coming out of, and serving the needs of American Evangelicalism.  Yet very early on, they had some "biggies" that were of interest outside that market, like the Abridged TDNT and eventually TDNT, and for a while the Jerome Commentary.  Because of these biggies, some people outside of American Evangelicalism have adopted Logos.  But we look at most of the material in the base packages and are, at BEST, not interested.

Now personally, I am a Lutheran, and we have been, at best, at the edge of American Protestantism, and so I have more than a little sympathy for Roman Catholics, even when I disagree with at least some points of view in it, since they have been even more outside the mainstream here. 

And so I understand why rebranding for different markets is valuable.  Just a short list of reasons why Catholics would want a different base package...

1)  Different canon default settings.  A Catholic when doing a whole bible search looks at more books than a American Protestant.  By having different base packages, you can set it to default to the way the typical user would expect things.

2)  Different standard translations.  Not to get into fights about which is the best translation, but there are different standard ones in different communities.

3)  Different standard secondary sources.  While there are a few who claim they read and study nothing but the Bible, most Christians read the Bible and understand the Bible in dialogue with those who have gone before us.  Now, while I would claim that these sources have no independent authority OUTSIDE of the Bible, I am more than a bit interested in how other smart people with different world views were able to handle a passage that befuddles me.  A Roman Catholic would find Thomas Aquinas more helpful than John Calvin in this.

4) History of antagonism.  While the fights between the camps are not as hot and heavy as they used to be, there is a history of mistrust, often justifiable on all sides.  Having a separate brand label of Verbum lets the Catholics hear that they and their needs are actually being taken seriously.

And while they are differently labeled, I would hardly describe them as exclusive.  If I were starting out today, I don't know onto which side I would fall.

SDG

Ken McGuire

Well said Ken, great post.

Ken McGuire

“If I were starting out today, I don't know onto which side I would fall.”

If you are interested you have just a few more days to pickup one of the Catholic Libraries at the intro price. [[link in my prior post]]

Verbum is not a library – it is a set of switches within Logos 5 that make things easier for the Catholic user to use a Catholic library.  All one need do to switch between Logos 5 and Verbum is throw a switch. 

Search the forum for Verbum and find out how to switch between Logos 5 and Verbum and back again

[[most just set and forget]]

For the better part of a decade and a half, Logos offered predominantly "Protestant" resources and packages and there was only one bundle set that contained anything "Catholic".  What is happening with Verbum is an attempt to balance things out and acknowlege that Greek and Hebrew are not the only major ancient languages in which Christian literature has been written, but that Latin too should be included.  There is a catch-up wave of Catholic material currently going through the pre-pub system.  You can expect periodic waves of specialized material of various types.

In case you missed them:

http://www.logos.com/product/28235/reformed-bundle-xl

http://www.logos.com/product/28246/jewish-bundle-xl

http://www.logos.com/product/28197/baptist-studies-bundle-l

Luigi Sam said:

There isn't an exclusive Baptist Labelled Logos

There are much better authorities on Baptists than I, but my understanding is that All Baptists believe in Congregational Autonomy, and that people should be baptized by immersion after they are able to state the faith on their own after an "age of reason."  After that, things can be rather wild and chaotic, at least to an outsider.  I have run into Baptists who insist they have never heard of the preexistence of Christ mentioned in church, for example.

Luigi Sam said:

There isn't an exclusive Protestant Labelled Logos.

To those of us outside the stream of American Evangelicalism, it looks like that is what the Logos base packages already ARE.  Yeah, they are better than when I first got Logos a dozen years ago, but they still seem dominated by stuff from American Evangelicalism.

Exclusive, no.  But what do you mean by exclusive?  You admit that the Catholic packages do have some outside material.  But you recognize that the focus is on "them".  Likewise, for those of us outside of American Evangelicalism, we recognize that while there is some outside material, the focus is on "them".

Speaking as a Lutheran, it is almost funny how old Lutheran reviews of the Logos offerings all agreed on the same thing, since ELCA, LC-MS, and WELS don't agree on much of anything.  But they all said to grab Original Languages Library and supplement it with Lutheran stuff.

As I pointed out in a thread about the demise of Original Languages Library, it is obvious that the "Christian" market in this country is dominated by two groups - Evangelicals and Roman Catholics.  They are the ones with Bookstores in most communities.  And those of us outside of, or on the periphery  of those groups either set up our own independent rivals, or settle for the crumbs from the tables out there.

The current Logos base packages are obviously designed for the Evangelical Protestants.  Exclusive?  No.  But Dominant, yes.

SDG

Ken McGuire

I am not a Roman Catholic, I am a Capstone Logos Verbum user for several reasons. Despite my dislike for much of the politics of the RC church, I usually appreciate there scholarship greatly. In general I often find many of the commentaries by evangelical offensive theologically (I will not discuss theological issues hear since the forum guides expressly forbid it), Verbum works well for Catholics, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Lutherans, and Orthodox Christians and anyone who wants to draw from the rich background of the historic Church. Verbum allows as a default the use of the apocryphal books as scripture, which many Logos users might find very offensive. If you want Logos to be completely 'non-denominational' perhaps you should protest the "evangelical" commentary they are funding to produce. Logos is a company, it offers many things for many different users, in offering Verbum, Logos removed what some had seen as a controversial preference selection of catholic/protestant. LOGOS IS A BUISNESS NOT A CHURCH AND ITS BUSINESS INTEGRITY IS IN NO WAY COMPROMISED BY OFFERING USERS A CHOICE.

-Dan

Luigi Sam said:

With all respect I'd like to know how many Catholics are still taught that it is the Church leaderships responsibility to read the bible, not lay members?  Again with all respect perhaps I am speaking of the older generation ( and I dont mean to put all lay Catholics in this basket, I am just saying because it is a noteworthy and valid point )

1)  When teaching adult sunday school, people have marveled at how I was able to pull up so much so fast when questioned on something.  Yet in spite of trying to sell it to a few people, I am not aware of any successes, simply because the low end base products were not appealing to my Lutheran students.  I have never been around a place where there is really wide lay use.

2)  I am aware that there has been a change in emphasis in Roman Catholic circles towards more lay involvement.  This was starting even before Vatican 2 and after Vatican 2 has accelerated.  But living and working in the secular world, I have found that often it is the Roman Catholics who know their Bibles as well as typical Protestants.  Average Catholics certainly, in my experience, know their Faith BETTER than typical Protestants.  I have been amazed at how the full Catechism of the Catholic Church has been read and even studied by the faithful.  I am admittedly a bit jealous.  I wish that we Lutherans would study our Catechisms as well, and I have heard many Protestants say how they wish they had such valued confirmation instruction as we Lutherans...

Many traditional Roman Catholic are bound to read works with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. These are the works that have been pre-approved by a local RC bishop or by the Holy See. (Read for more info: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P2P.HTM). 

It is possible that based on Logos marketing studies, they decided that creating Verbum will be the most effective way to market their products to Catholics, which comprises approximately 27% of the US population and 16.5% of the global population. 

This doesn't mean Logos caters towards one denomination more than another. It simply means since the majority of the Protestants are already being served by the current Logos offerings, the next set of people are the RCs and other allied denominations, like the Anglicans and Lutherans. 

Peace!

Your attitude is about 600 years out of date. Moreover, as others have pointed out, the use of "catholic" resources is not limited to Roman Catholics. These resources are used by Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians and Eastern Orthodox. I am also aware of many well educated protestants who read and use many of these resources.

Bible study, by the laity as well as the clergy, is encouraged in RC, Lutheran, Episcopal and Orthodox parishes that I am familiar with.

Luigi Sam said:

 

Catholics require a Rebranded Catholic Logos ( and I agree it has alot of non catholic resources )  - the point is that they require a 'exclusive' catholic Branded Logos version of all base packages ( or the equiv concept ).

 

• There isn't an exclusive Baptist Labelled Logos
• There isn't an exclusive Protestant Labelled Logos.

Your comment reminds me of those who say why do Blacks get their own TV Station with BET(Black Entertainment Television).   When the majority dominates the market(Whites with TV, Protestants with Logos), sometimes the minority group of that market gets a different name to help it stand out so others know how to find it.

MJ. Smith said:

Monroe R Miller said:

Bible study, by the laity as well as the clergy, is encouraged in RC, Lutheran, Episcopal and Orthodox parishes that I am familiar with.

Also worth noting, in general the churches using a lectionary and/or prayer book expose the congregation to more Scripture and those which do not. Call it Bible Study for the non-reader. Now if I could only get more lectionaries into Logos...

MJ. This a very good point and a very strong argument for Churches of any denomination to use at least a year long lectionary. Now being part of a "non-denominational" church, I have often experienced with first hand interaction how many "church people" have very little exposure to the Scriptures other than what is spoon fed (I don't mean that derogatorily, it's just all that some every get) to them in the course of preaching. A lectionary adds a certain dynamic to what they may be exposed to.

I vote YES to more lectionaries from diverse sources.

I am more than happy to see Logos offer Verbum. I am not Catholic. I do not hate Catholicism. It is probably easier to "market" a Catholic Collection per se as something different. It is a much more homogeneous group than us Protestants. That would be like nailing jell-o to the wall. There are specific products targeting other groups as well. I own the Classic Baptist Books collection and several reformed products. And there are many more reformed products in the pre-pub. I hope they keep offering a variety.  P.S. I own several of those Catholic products too.