LOGOS seems unbalanced in being Non-Denominational

Hey Luigi: Man, People have tried to be polite, helpful and understanding, yet no amount of this from them has helped.

You keep saying Catholics have to have their own version of Logos, separate from Protestants.

So let me set you straight on that.

It's not even true, you don't understand what you don't understand and no amount of us trying to explain it to you is going to help because you don't "want " to understand.

If you did/do understand, you would still post your silly accusations.

Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans and others have not demanded "our own Logos". We have all owned lots of different things.

Personally, I own Accordance, Logos, Biblesoft, Olivetree. I have a physical library of a few thousand books as well.

Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans etc. Have a habit of reading and using everyone that has something of value to say. Thus our libraries usually have the best of work from all disciplines , that means protestant too. 

I have owned Logos for long before a Catholic version was a thought, before a catholic library was available and was one of many that requested more catholic, anglican, lutheran, orthodox resources just as I recently requested yet more Orthodox resources.

The members of these Forums have a wonderful habit of getting along, making room for each others frustrations when Logos does not work correctly and until now, I have never seen denominational backgrounds become an issue. ( I feel sure it has at some time, just never seen it before). 

Personally, I never even look. I have learned a great deal here and been helped by Baptists, Pentecostals, Orthodox, Catholics, Non-Denominationals and all others.

I can't count the times an evangelical scholar that works in original languages has helped orthodox/catholic/ ext. with some issue in that area ( me included ). "Keep Smiling for Jesus" does not seem to care one iota what someones background is, if you have a problem, he is going to try and help, just like everyone else here.

The members of this forum care first and foremost that everyone is able to get their studies done, lessons prepared, Sermon's finished, Papers for school turned in, books written etc.

I can't count the times I have been stuck, Logos broken, up to my eyeballs in frustration and the people here, no matter what background, have rescued me so I could get work done.

Not one time-EVER- has anyone said: Oh, your one of those catholics , we aren't going to help you-not ever.

Logos is a business. If you don't like their business model, thats fine, we all understand, we all have frustrations with certain things from them, from time to time. We might not like the way a new product is rolled out, the way something is sold/upgraded etc, etc.

Yes, like you, we will come here, we will vent, we will discuss it, we show our frustrations .

Yet, at the end of the day each of us is faced with the same decision to make: Does this PRODUCT meet my needs. If it does, we buy it and use it, if not, we don't, it's that simple.

Bob ( The owner of Logos ) has been pretty good about getting on the forums and explaining why they do the things they do, explaining his business plan. At the end of the day, we can either buy it, or not, it's just that simple.

The nice thing about this huge library of Logo's resources is we can buy what we want, skip what we don't want . If you buy a large "library" you are going to have a lot you will use, a lot you will not use very often, some you may never have any use for at all.

It is what it is.

This is a great forum of folks from all backgrounds . If you stick around, you are going to run into issues with Logos at some point, of some kind. You will find the help you need here, and no one will care what your background is. You will get help from Baptists, Catholics, Orthodox, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Charismatics, Jewish, etc. If you have a problem they will jump in like it's their own problem. That sounds like Christians to me.

So please, stop with the Catholic resources need warning labels and think a little bit, a bit more deeply. Do you want "Warning" labels on Calvinist materials, Luther's works, Pentecostal works?

Personally, I work towards unity, toward understanding, towards education.

The times we live in require it.

If you don't have use for Verbum and or any catholic resources, don't buy them, it's just that simple.

We wouldn't dream of forcing them on you or anyone else.

Blessings.

Congratulations to Your 500th post, Fr. Charles!

I have a comparatively small library and often a lack of time (so I would read more during the study semesters if I would have time). I agree, I've also expanded my library to contain much from denominations that are not very close matches to my beliefs. (But I don't have different software.)

Here's a test result what two denominations matches my beliefs: ____________

I'm in the process of hiding more and more of my books, but even though there's a couple of hundred books I could hide straight away I hesitate because hiding them would not necessarily help me that much after all. Often I grow secure in my beliefs when I have contrasted them, but that doesn't have to do with the appeal or lack thereof of other beliefs but rather a sifting: I want to use what's possible to use, from the books I have:

Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:

Personally, I own Accordance, Logos, Biblesoft, Olivetree. I have a physical library of a few thousand books as well.

Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans etc. Have a habit of reading and using everyone that has something of value to say. Thus our libraries usually have the best of work from all disciplines , that means protestant too.

Good Grief guy.

I am a Catholic user of Logos. If you look at my previous posts in other threads, you will see that I was a staunch advocate for Logos offering more products that would be of interest to Catholic users. I have been very happy to see Logos respond to their Catholic user base. When I bought Logos 4, I was disappointed by the number of books that catered to Protestant Christians. However, I need to add that there is much that can be learned from other theological perspectives, and I have enjoyed reading and learned from the many Protestant theologians. The issue for me was mainly that I wanted to use Logos mainly for studying the Bible in conjunction with Catholic theological writers. Logos has always predominantly catered to the Protestant spectrum -- until now. 

Logos has adopted an interesting strategy. They created Verbum. I am not sure if that was necessary, but I can understand it from a marketing point of view. I know that they have hired specialists to advise the company on how to create a better package for Catholic users. One of them has a PhD in Historical Theology from my alma mater Saint Louis University. That means that is probably only going to improve as time goes on.

My general impression of the Catholic packages is that has a lot of dated theological works. There is a need to get more contemporary Catholic books in the database. I see that happening with partnerships with Ignatius Press and similar publishing houses. 

Interestingly, I decided not to upgrade to Verbum. Instead, I chose to do the minimal Logos upgrade. It is better for me to just buy the select titles that I know will be useful to my own study. 

Before concluding here, I would like to respond to a comment a person made about Catholics and Bible study. Lay people in the Catholic Church are encouraged to read, study, and pray the Bible assiduously. Remember, it was St. Jerome who wrote, "Ignorance of the scriptures is ignorance of Christ." I am grateful to Logos for creating an excellent product that helps me delve more deeply in the God's Word.

Luigi, what was the purpose of that link? 

What if we had a chart:

Title       | Software Optimized for use with :  | Resource listed as               | Set Verbum to

Verbum | Catholic Resources                       | Catholic, and Others            |       Yes

Logos    | For General Use                           | General, Many Catholic        |        No

Sometime, while running Logos 5,  turn on the home page then

type 'Set Verbum to Yes' in the command box

Then type 'Set Verbum to No' in the command box

And report back your results of what you see 

Luigi Sam said:

Dan Francis said:

Logos is a company, it offers many things for many different users, in offering Verbum, Logos removed what some had seen as a controversial preference selection of catholic/protestant.

 

Why cant the Original Logos Packages be advertised as Logos for Protestants Then?  

The words "Logos for Protestants" That is what I want to even it out fairly.

I was raised in the Lutheran tradition and now worship in the Anglican traditions and a large portion of us do not see ourselves as Protestants… Perhaps we should have a protestant collection and rename Logos as evangelical. I can almost promise you if the Catholic works were added into the default packages there would be many people complaining about being force to buy "Papist crap" * . By tailoring a package for Catholics and those of us who appreciate catholic scholarship they make, in general everyone happy. No one is being forced to have items they don't want, and catholics get works geared to them. Personally I would be happy to have the items added into to existing packages, but I would imagine a significant number of Logos users would not like it.

-Dan

* I chose my words because the hateful phrase I feel underlies the whole thread. RC are not evil and while I hate many of the homophobic and sexist  things that the current Pope has written Ratzinger is a wonderful scholar and a fair leader, I oppose Papal infallibility and most marian dogma, but I have many catholic in laws who feel the same.

The thing that escapes me in this whole thread is what its purpose is. Luigi, dude...I don't get who you're fighting for or why. You seem to think that there's some Great Spiritual Battle to be won regarding what or how Logos sells what it sells. That's just silly. I don't fully agree with ANYTHING I have in my Logos library except for the Scriptures. I still have almost 6,500 resources, because we should not be ignorant of the enemy's devices. You disagree with RC?? Then READ RC stuff, and know that you do...or maybe don't. Worrying about what the blind, ignorant, and lazy might become contaminated with is pointless...they are already contaminated with blindness, ignorance, and laziness. You CAN'T combat those things with warning lables or "must read" or "can't read" lists. That's impossible. I share (to some degree) your distaste for certain dogmas, but if your battle isn't Bible-based, it is near about pointless. Just remember, you can't change a leopard's spots any more than it can...and insisting on trying is stupid. To do so risks becoming as inbalanced as those things you condemn.

David Paul said:

2,068

...no more, no less...

 

[The number of angels that can stand on the head of a pin]

ANGELS DON'T DANCE, THEY ARE BAPTISTS AS IS GOD AND JESUS… [6]

David Paul said:

The thing that escapes me in this whole thread is what its purpose is? Luigi, dude...I don't get who you're fighting for or why? You seem to think that there's some Great Spiritual Battle to be won regarding what or how Logos sells what it sells. That's just silly...

Well written indeed! This one gets two Amens and two thumbs up![Y][Y]

Surely, if we just concentrate on what the Bible says, we don't need to argue over catholic / protestant

David Ames said:

Dan Francis said:

David Paul said:

2,068

...no more, no less...

[The number of angels that can stand on the head of a pin]

ANGELS DON'T DANCE, THEY ARE BAPTISTS AS IS GOD AND JESUS…

He said "STAND" not "DANCE" 

 

Sorry my bad… the traditionally the question was "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" One comedian had the response i shared above… Dance is a wonderful thing.. even though since i am almost in a wheel chair not something I do much of any more.

-Dan

Luigi: Forst, I have responded to you several times.

Next: I think the whole thing is ridiculas.

Next: I believe your responses now are dishonest. When you first posted ( yes, I have read them all) as distasteful as it was, you were at least honest, now, you cover your real feelings with all sorts of "straw man " arguments, thats what I think.

You whole reasoning in your first post was that Catholic materials needed warning labels because you believe them to be dangerous , especially to new believers. I responded to those posts, you did not reply. 

I find the whole thing quite distasteful, just to be honest with you.

Next: You keep speaking of Logos being hijacked.

Straw man argument.

The only person /persons that could complain about something being hijacked would be the owners of what had been hijacked.

Logos is not complaining about Logos being hijacked.

Logos software is a company, they have every right to do whatever they wish with thier product.

You, as a customer have every right to buy it or, not buy it.

If you don't like the way Logos is being managed/packaged/sold , write a letter to the owner, call him, his number is listed.

I don't think you will though because the real issue you have is with Catholics and Catholic Materials. You believe they should be labeled as false doctrine, you want warning labels placed on them as if they are poison. This is why you hate Verbum, for feel Catholic is getting a leg up on protestant denominationalism through Logos. Thus, your real motivation and purpose is to do all you can to combat Catholic growth in any way you can.

In my humble opinion, this is not the place for Chick Track mentalities or discussion of same.

Again, Logos is a company, they have the freedom to market as they please.

I have no issue at all with Catholic branding, with Jewish branding, Pentecostal etc.

What we have now is two "overarching" groups represented, those two "groups" are:

1. Protestants - huge libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

2. Catholic- Huge Libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

1a. Logos standard has resources from all over the protestant experience and it's history, including Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Non-Denominational, generally all Evangelical disciplines.

2b. Catholic/Verbum- Libraries of resources covering/of special interest to:  Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and other disciplines.

Note: Looks to me like Logos is simply trying to cover the known Christian market as it is normally seen , trying to meet the "needs" of those who will/would be buying thier products.

Logos is doing well to do so, Logos is looking to meet the needs of it's user base and looking to expand that user base- Good business plan.

Logos is a company , will grow or die based on it's business decisions.

No one here has a right to make those business decisions for Logos for no one here is willing to take the risks, make the investments Logos is willing to make.

Logos has many employees, they have families , those families need to pay bills, Logos has to grow in order to take care of it's employee base.

Logos has to deal with Publishers , a very, very difficult situation these days, very confused environment these days, much like Music Industry before iTunes changed everything. Logos has to respond to the Publisher environment, their needs, demands in order to get those resources, this , in all likelihood plays a major role in Logos Marketing decisions.

Logos can now, for the first time in reality, truly make a claim to being non-denominational, for not only do they have some catholic resources available in a protestant format, but they now have a catholic format, thus serving both the Evangelical/Protestant disciplines AND the Catholic Disciplines.

I have never complained about the Protestant Software and Libraries, I use them.

I am very blessed to now have the Catholic Software and Libraries.

Again Luigi: I find the whole thing distasteful , now dishonest. You don't want the catholic resources, don't buy them.

You have no use for Verbum, don't buy it.

You have all the access you want to Protestant Software and Libraries.

If Verbum is the Catholic version, then Logos Standard is the Protestant version.

Logos software "systems" is a computer platform to access and use the Logos library system.

Logos is the best way to access Evangelical Protestant library resources.

Verbum is the best way to access Catholic Library resources.

The Catholic Library system "is" somewhat different ( be better when finished ) because the tagging to catechisms/Lectionaries effects how we access materials and, catholics also have some different key-words we use in "subject" searches. We also have some different Biblical books, we often use parts of history "some" evangelicals don't use or use as often. We use a lot of Greek and Latin words/word groups/phrases that have to be tagged/accounted for that some evangelicals would have no interest in.

I could give you probably another dozen or so reasons why Verbum IS NOT just Logos "rebranded" as you like to say so often. There has to be an enormous amount of coding done in Verbum that is different that the Evangelical/Protestant version called Logos software.

Ok, you asked, you have my answer.

Personally think I/we should all just quit responding to these threads because the real and core issue is your being Anti-Catholic , wanting all Catholic materials branded with warning labels as "dangerous" and making uneducated biased statements like : catholic lay people don't read and study the Bible, don't know the faith etc. etc. 

Again, I find your whole reason for all of this to be most distasteful, thus I will be praying for your enlightenment.

Hope that covers everything for you in a succinct way.

Pray you find Grace and Peace in Christ Jesus.

phil stilliard said:

Sorry, I only just noticed this. No I I am no trying to be clever. Most Christians would agree that Catholic is

is not based on the Bible. So Catholic books in logos should be clearly marked as such. 

All I can say is that I disagree. 

And to let you know, there are plenty of Roman Catholic Christians who use this forum.