How to re-write and release a replacement product.
Comments
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Philip Spitzer said:
Depends on how you add things up. If L3 is a 100, and L4 lacks 10 of what L3 does, you have 90. If L4 then adds to that 90 20 of what L3 wasn't you now have 110 and thus more of a program and not less. Yes, the dog is a math genius as well. Now no one is disputing the 10. The question is, how much to L4 add or improve that L3 missed?
This doesn't work. If it is missing something that many find valuable, to them you can add all the features in the world, but they will still miss the other feature.
For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.
I know - don't upgrade. BTW that only makes the person saying seem insensitive and doesn't help the person it is being said to. We know this. I signed up to beta test Logos 4 and will do so for another 6 months. But if at that time it is not up to 3.0 standards I will remove it and not use it or recommend it. I fell pretty sure it will be by then.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:
I know - don't upgrade.
I can't recall ever saying this, but then again enough people have that it would be hard to remember who has and who hasn't and I might have joined the choir and forgot.
EDIT: I WANT you to state your opinions and have this discussion. I want people looking to use L4 to have as much information about it as possible. I don't want you to get your refund, shut-up, and go away so that I can sing L4's praises. I want you to respectfully state your opinions (which I have always felt you have) and for me to respectfully state my opinions so that others can make the most informed decisions.
EDIT EDIT: Besides, Posting to this thread is helping me get above Thomas in the overall Post count [:D]
Kevin A. Purcell said:For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.
Then the formula works different for you, L3 is 100, -50 for sentence diagramming is 50, + 20 takes you up to 70. what ever the values you place on things are up to you, but to simply leave the formula at L3 - what I miss I believe is short sighted. One should take into consideration how L4 can benefit them over L3. It may still end up being short but it should be considered none-the-less.
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
I know - don't upgrade. BTW that only makes the person saying seem insensitive and doesn't help the person it is being said to. We know this
No Kevin...it seems that not everyone does...
Personally, the last time I bought software that i didn't like (Office 2007) I paid for it...used it...didn't really like it...then I uninstalled it and used Open Office.
I didn't go onto the Microsoft forums and complain about how horriifying a product Office was...nor did I say how they should have left well enough alone so i'd like the program....i just chose to not use the product; as it didn't do what i wanted the way I wanted it....no biggie.
Saying "don't upgrade" or 'wait awhile before clicking the V4 icon" is NOT insensitive...I would have called it "a viable alternative to a big problem...." [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Don't get me wrong I am all for progress and a new and better Logos 4; I said my initial impression is that Logos 4 is not ready to replace Logos 3. As far as the buisness decission to ship early and pay for development; I am fine with that, by all means, pay the bills.
Logos has an excellent reputaion and I purchased the product to help keep things going and the price of the additional content may never be this low again, that make this "upgrade" worth it!
As far as Logos 4 goes; I believe the re-write is well worth the investment; my only complaints are concerning the company communications and would like to know more about what will be ready, when it will be ready and if anything is going to be left out. I would like this information to be a link that is easy to find.
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.
Understood: everybody has their own set of important features.
I too hope (and expect) overall performance will continue to improve. According to the missing features list, sentence diagramming is slated for 2Q 2010.
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Ken Avery said:
As far as Logos 4 goes; I believe the re-write is well worth the investment; my only complaints are concerning the company communications and would like to know more about what will be ready, when it will be ready and if anything is going to be left out. I would like this information to be a link that is easy to find.
a reasonable request.
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Sean Boisen said:Kevin A. Purcell said:
For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.
Understood: everybody has their own set of important features.
I too hope (and expect) overall performance will continue to improve. According to the missing features list, sentence diagramming is slated for 2Q 2010.
What about keylinking - I hated it when it first came out and ended up depending on it after getting everything set up - is there something that replaces it?
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Ken Avery said:
My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.
Here we changed functionality to try to hit a better sweet spot for most of our users. Rather than detailed keylinking, in L4 you prioritize resources. There's additional information and discussion (and some similar complaints) about keylinking on these threads:
- http://community.logos.com/forums/p/823/7664.aspx
- http://community.logos.com/forums/t/934.aspx
- This video talks about resource prioritization: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHF8a1UsYJU.
As mentioned in these threads, some power users aren't happy with this change because they have less fine-grained control. What L4 has gained in my view (and some others agree) is less fussing about, and more intuitive behavior.
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Ken Avery said:
My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.
I get so frustrated because it took years to get Logos the way I want it and now it is all out the window!
I can agree with the first part. Prioritizing is not a functional equivalent of L3's data type "key linking". It is an attempt to get away from the complexities of L3, but it is a feature that is fraught with compromise as the desired object for different references or links cannot be achieved 100% of the time. For example it is not possible to construct a list which will ensure that ESL is the object for Greek Strong's and Hebrew Strong's numbers when you have other lexicons that are also indexed on Strong's numbers.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Sean Boisen said:
As mentioned in these threads, some power users aren't happy with this change because they have less fine-grained control. What L4 has gained in my view (and some others agree) is less fussing about, and more intuitive behavior.
Yes...and I can live with prioritizing as a replacement for keylinking, but it needs to be better then a hodgepodge of resource thrown into a list. They need to at least be color coded so It's easier to see what is what.
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Sean Boisen said:
As mentioned in these threads, some power users aren't happy with this change because they have less fine-grained control. What L4 has gained in my view (and some others agree) is less fussing about, and more intuitive behavior.
And let me repeat, it does not work for phrases. This is not an issue of "fine-grained control". It is less functional.
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Philip Spitzer said:Ken Avery said:
What about keylinking - I hated it when it first came out and ended up depending on it after getting everything set up - is there something that replaces it?
Have you prioritized any of your resources?
Yes - it does not have the same finite control - hopefully Logos comes up with a way to get the same or better control.
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Damian McGrath said:Sean Boisen said:
As mentioned in these threads, some power users aren't happy with this change because they have less fine-grained control. What L4 has gained in my view (and some others agree) is less fussing about, and more intuitive behavior.
And let me repeat, it does not work for phrases. This is not an issue of "fine-grained control". It is less functional.
I keylinked on phrases often in L3. I can't do it now.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Ken, this sounds like (perfect) Rush Limbaugh logic!
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Kevin A. Purcell said:Debra W Bouey said:
If you want to vent, well, I reckon you're obviously free to do that in this forum as well ... just don't expect us to bow at your superior footstool without expressing ourselves as well, kind sir.
I don't believe Ken was expecting that at all, nor am I. So it was probably not a helpful comment. I am simply engaging in a friend debate and expressing my views. After all this is a forum and that is what one does in an online forum. Thanks for engaging in the debate.
No, it wasn't, Kevin. I have an utterly sinful acerbic bent along with the inclination to exercise it upon occasion and it is never appropriate to do so, thank you for the gracious, gentle nudge to watch the "tongue", virtually speaking.
Ken, my
snarky little comment referenced above was and is grossly inappropriate
and downright sinful. Please accept my apologies for doing so.Kevin: I suppose I'm somewhat perplexed at the depth of the frustrations with L-4, since it did not overwrite the very software program - Libronix 3 - which allowed the personalized upgrade rate for the new software. One can run a fully functional Libronix 3 alongside, or independent of Logos 4. I can also appreciate the length of time the initial L-4 download and subsequent indexing have taken for many. It isn't like L-4 overwrote Libronix 3, it's still the same. I think it's just the disappointment of what's missing, coupled with the radically new ways one must go about accomplishing things in L-4 with the things not ported to it yet all rolled into it. But, as you have frequently expressed here as well, I still see the promise in L-4 as it matures along the way. (But, then, I'm a medical research wonkette and we spend years completing incomplete data and such. So, admittedly, I'm used to that sort of thing more so than most might be.)
I understood, somehow, after watching the introductory video and a thorough reading of the "missing" section, etc., at the outset that Logos 4 was far from its maturity. I didn't expect it to be ripe at the outset. Even so, as I alluded to previously, I wasn't terribly pleased with L-4 when I first beheld its new "home" page format. Nor do I care for the ongoing time investment in getting layouts and collections and the like customized when I already invested so much time in Libronix 3. Yet I'm still finding more to like in Logos 4 day by day.
I'm with you in that I see what a mature Logos 4 is likely to be and I like it. I just wish it was there already 'cause I don't like waiting for the gradual update roll outs a bit more than I like radical change and paradigm shifts. [:)]
P.S. I realize these posts can pass in the night as well, 'tis the nature of online discussions.
Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro
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Ken Avery said:
I will be blunt; the way it looks to me is that Logs 4 was not scoped out properly and missed the schedule big time and was released as a product when it was still in developemnt to generate a little income to keep the project going.
Perfect Rush Limbaugh type logic!
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Debra W Bouey said:
No, it wasn't, Kevin. I have an utterly sinful acerbic bent along with the inclination to exercise it upon occasion and it is never appropriate to do so, thank you for the gracious, gentle nudge to watch the "tongue", virtually speaking.
Ken, my
snarky little comment referenced above was and is grossly inappropriate
and downright sinful. Please accept my apologies for doing so.Kudos to you madam. Thanks for the kind response. See how when Christians handle conflict in a Christlike way it usually ends well. And I too apologize for my negative spirit this evening.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Shawn Drewett said:
Ken, this sounds like (perfect) Rush Limbaugh logic!
If you are a Democrat them's fightin' words.
If you are a Republican its high praise.
Like telling your child his art project is very interesting.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Sorry Kevin, I don't understand.
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If you like Rush than to be called perfect Rush Limbaugh logic would be a compliment. Like saying to a Christian, you are very Christ like.
But if you don't like Rush as most Democrats don't, it would seem like an insult. Like a Muslim telling another Muslim, that was very Christ-like. Might start a fight.
If I don't know your persuasion, then I don't know if you are complementing or criticizing, much like a parent who doesn't want to hurt Johnny's feelings when he shows off his macaroni art. "Interesting" the parent says.
I was trying to add some levity.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Thanks for explaining. For the most part I rate Rush very high in intelligence and logic and rightness.
So it was a compliment.[Y]
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Another thing- to me telling a person "if you have complaints about L4 , get a refund" is like telling someone who has a complaint about America to revoke his/her citizenship!
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Shawn Drewett said:
Another thing- to me telling a person "if you have complaints about L4 , get a refund" is like telling someone who has a complaint about America to revoke his/her citizenship!
Well said. It's like a pastor telling a disgruntled church member to just leave the church. Insensitive.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
This is even a better comparison. I am not very old, (I don't think I am [:$]) 43, but I remember when WalMart revolutionized the retail industry by bending over backwards and accepting the return of almost ANY item opened or unopened. Before WalMart, this was a "can't do" thing. What I am saying is that the American mindset has changed and it is more demanding today, especially when one invests alot of money.
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Kevin A. Purcell said:Shawn Drewett said:
Another thing- to me telling a person "if you have complaints about L4 , get a refund" is like telling someone who has a complaint about America to revoke his/her citizenship!
Well said. It's like a pastor telling a disgruntled church member to just leave the church. Insensitive.
My pastoral experience has taught me that shared frustration is evidence of a much higher level of commitment than silent apathy.
For me, the release of Logos 4 has caused me to reengage this software with the hope that it will prove to be a better tool that L3 or other competitive software for that matter.
It will take some honest criticism and feedback for that to happen.
I'm sure the management at Logos appreciates the passion that is being expressed in these forums.
Live forums are a better sign for the future of a company than dead forums.0 -
Ken Avery said:
I must disagree strongly that the new product is not required to function as the old product; I have maintained SW that has to be backwords compatable for decades, you don't remove features that breaks your customer base!
Ken
Your multiple posts make me wonder if you have ever heard of these companies: Microsoft, Apple? They don't seem to think that your absolutes are so absolute.
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Russ Quinn said:
I'm sure the management at Logos appreciates the passion that is being expressed in these forums.
Live forums are a better sign for the future of a company than dead forums.I certainly appreciate the opportunity for engaged users to provide invaluable feedback on our product. I value it even more when it is focused, concrete, and constructive. A comment like "i want to click on X and have Y happen" is actionable: i can respond with something useful like
- it's supposed to do that, but it's broken (and then i can file a bug report) or not yet implemented (but then i can tell you our plans)
- it doesn't do that because we chose a different design (but maybe i can explain another way to do it, or the best current equivalent)
- you have to think about this problem in a different way in the L4
Many features aren't nearly this simple, i recognize, and we certainly can't provide every feature that every user desires. But in general, providing actionable feedback goes a long ways toward both meeting your needs and helping us build a better product. Keep it coming!
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Thanks, Kevin. I know better and that leaves me without excuse, of course. It's written online in forums, not spoken, so one has ample time to review and weigh these things before smiting the "Post" icon. Something I obviously failed to do in my earlier posts. [:$]
So, while I'm at it, an overdue thanks to everyone who so freely shares helpful Libronix 3 and especially now, Logos 4 insight and instruction here and elsewhere. 'Tis greatly appreciated!
Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro
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Shawn Drewett said:
Another thing- to me telling a person "if you have complaints about L4 , get a refund" is like telling someone who has a complaint about America to revoke his/her citizenship!.
Kevin A. Purcell said:Well said. It's like a pastor telling a disgruntled church member to just leave the church. Insensitive.
No....it's not like either and I'm surprised you'd both make such a wild comparison....It's simple; buy a product, don't like it....refund.Country of citizenship in the same catagory?....really?Like a Pastor blowing off a congregant? Really...that's the comparison?PS: Nobody EVER said..."if you have complaints"....that's misrepresenting what was said....that's a strawman.What was said was...."there's always the option to get a refund" and considering the tone of the posts like this one; not and inquisitive question on how it can be made to work, or the innoucous "Does anyone have any suggestions?" or even..."this is disappointing...I think I'm going to stick with V3 until the sentencing diagramming is introduced into V4..."considering that......it seems like suggesting a refund is a perfectly valid alternative...why is that an insult to you both?? [:S]Simple Simple simple....Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
No....it's not like either and I'm surprised you'd both make such a wild comparison
Let me correct my statement. It is how it makes me feel. And you cannot say it does not.
As for people telling people to go away if they have complaints. I read just that kind of post. A new user had a long littany of complaints and the third response was essentially go away. That was here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6170.aspx
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
If all customer Logos customer service representatives had your outlook Robert, the company would shut down in a few months or years.How do you think they got to where they are now? EXELLENT CUSTOMER SERVICE! What a great post from Sean Boisen! THIS IS LOGOS, NOT "hey if you don't like it , get a refund!!
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Kevin A. Purcell said:Robert Pavich said:
No....it's not like either and I'm surprised you'd both make such a wild comparison
Let me correct my statement. It is how it makes me feel. And you cannot say it does not.
As for people telling people to go away if they have complaints. I read just that kind of post. A new user had a long littany of complaints and the third response was essentially go away. That was here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6170.aspx
Kevin...fair enough..."it makes me feel...." is ok.....that's less than a "pronouncement" [:D]
But I believe that you were mistaken in your "go away" quote: here is what was said....
Gordon Tatler:I am seriously thinking of kicking it into touch and returning to my trusty WORDsearch program.Perhaps that is your best course of action. No sense in getting an ulcer using a system you hate. I understand that Logos has a 30-day money back policy.
That was not only a nice way of putting it it was very sensible....
nothing about "go away..." at all....you are misrepresenting what's being said...pure and simple. Sorry....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Shawn Drewett said:
THIS IS LOGOS, NOT "hey if you don't like it ,
Once again...you misrepresent what's said....
do you do it on purpose or are you having a problem understanding the written word?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert, this is your post of Nov. 22, 2009:
David,
here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....
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Shawn Drewett said:
Robert, this is your post of Nov. 22, 2009:
David,
here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....
Once again....did the words take a hike...leave....hit the bricks or anything like that appear there..?
no....
did you post the context of my comment?
No...
why not post what this was in response to? that might be informative...
Again...you misrepresent what's said....
On purpose or by accident?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Guys,
Can we please cool it? - it's become quite undignified.
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You know what Damian, you are right. Call me schizophrenic but I identify with Robert and probably the reason he irritates me is that we are somewhat alike! Robert, I am sorry and appreciate your opposing view. Hey I am too argumentative and those that know me well know that --it ai[:(]nt good!
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Shawn Drewett said:
You know what Damian, you are right. Call me schizophrenic but I identify with Robert and probably the reason he irritates me is that we are somewhat alike! Robert, I am sorry and appreciate your opposing view. Hey I am too argumentative and those that know me well know that --it ai
nt good!Shawn,
I also apologize and unfortuntely, you are right; I have the same disposition that you do....so please...understand that it's a character flaw on this side of the fence...I really should have said what you said...."i appreciate your opposing view..." and left it at that
I've learned (and apparantly unlearned) this lesson more than a few times on this forum....I'm ashamed to say.... [:$]
Edited to add: Kevin....same goes to you..I apologize...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Hey we wouldn't want our wives to testfy huh?[:$]
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Awww . . . I am verklempt.
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How bad was i that it took DAMIAN to return some sanity to the conversation???[;)]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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JackCaviness said:Ken Avery said:
I must disagree strongly that the new product is not required to function as the old product; I have maintained SW that has to be backwords compatable for decades, you don't remove features that breaks your customer base!
Ken
Your multiple posts make me wonder if you have ever heard of these companies: Microsoft, Apple? They don't seem to think that your absolutes are so absolute.
Time for SW school again [8-|]
What changes and what does not change depends on what type of SW you are writing; for example, if you start with the operating system and the device drivers you will find that the requirements tend to stay the same while the HW changes. Take the network stack; how much do you think it has changed in the past 20 years, not much.
A simple way to look at it is how databases work; first you have data, second you have data relationships and third you have views of the data. For example, you might have the following tables:
- Person id, name, street address, phone id, hair color, height
- Phone id, area code, phone number
- Street address, Country, Town, zip code
You can maintain this information and provide many ways to view it; the base data fields can stay the same while the ways to view and edit the data can change in several ways and not affect the base design.
The point is, if the program is only providing user interface presentation stuff then there is more opportunity for change without changing the underlying architecture, kind of like changing clothes, you still have the same body functioning underneath.
Before all you non-sw people start linking pages that confirm your own prejudices you might want to spend a little time understanding what you are talking about; what type of program Logos is and should we expect it to be randomly changing because that is what some software does?
Let me get you caught up on what I have been saying in layman terms; I believe the core engine functionality of Logos has changed in a way that does not support keylinking the way it use to, it is basically broke in comparison to Logos 3, apperantly this is not a big issue for some.
It appears the architecture has changed and also the requirements when it comes to keylinking.
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Robert Pavich said:
How bad was i that it took DAMIAN to return some sanity to the conversation???
Oi.....
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Edited, because it was unkind and unnecessary. If you read it before is edited, I apologize.
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Philip Spitzer said:Ken Avery said:
What about keylinking - I hated it when it first came out and ended up depending on it after getting everything set up - is there something that replaces it?
Have you prioritized any of your resources?
Prioritizing in L4 is simply not as intuitive as L3. In L3 the user had more direct control over the outcome of searches from the context menu. Prioritizing doesn't have a method for doing this, nor is the documentation all that helpful. In fact I have to ask: what documentation? I have never received a manual of the quality of BibleWorks, for example..a complaint I first made in beta testing of L3 in 2005!!!
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Ray Timmermans said:
I have never received a manual of the quality of BibleWorks
Ray, BW7 didn't come with a manual - does BW8?
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Sean Boisen said:
Rather than detailed keylinking, in L4 you prioritize resources.
I don't know that this is an improvement. To me, prioritizing as currently implemented is a mess. More than key linking, I want to see PRAs. Using the arrow keys to navigate my commentaries is much less functional than L3.
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Damian McGrath said:Ray Timmermans said:
I have never received a manual of the quality of BibleWorks
Ray, BW7 didn't come with a manual - does BW8?
Dunno...never found reason to go past 6 [:)]
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