Queen Mother: A Biblical Theology of Mary’s Queenship
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This resource is currently being offered by Logos at discount for the month of May - http://www.logos.com/product/20535/queen-mother-a-biblical-theology-of-marys-queenship?utm_source=catholic&utm_medium=email&utm_content=4487577&utm_campaign=verbum2013q2
I am not Catholic and have always been puzzled by their approach to Mary. I would be interested in hearing reviews of this book from different perspectives and would appreciate if anyone could point out to other Logos resources that speak about this topic from different perspectives.
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Comments
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Is there a blog post about it?
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alabama24 said:
Is there a blog post about it?
I received an email about the offer. Although I can't see this resource specifically mentioned in this blog here is the link for the Verbum Blog - http://scripturestudysoftware.com/blog/?utm_source=catholic&utm_medium=email&utm_content=4487577&utm_campaign=verbum2013q2
Note that all month the focus will be on Mary.
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While I haven't read this book and so can't comment on it, a nice summary of the ANE background to this book is found here: The Great Lady in ANE
This is taken from "Ancient Israel: It's Life and Institutions" by Roland de Vaux. This book is a classic and would be great to see in Logos!!
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You might check this out for a Biblical refutation to mariology:
http://churchmousec.wordpress.com/2010/11/18/john-macarthur-on-mariolatry-part-1/
http://churchmousec.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/john-macarthur-on-mariolatry-part-2/
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Bruce Dunning said:
I would be interested in hearing reviews of this book from different perspectives.
One of the first things I check are the reviews at Amazon. While some reviews center more on themselves than the book, it is often helpful to view these - in this case I think they give some good information: http://www.amazon.com/Queen-Mother-Biblical-Theology-Queenship/product-reviews/1931018243/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Hope this helps,
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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Fr Devin Roza said:
a nice summary of the ANE background to this book is found here: The Great Lady in ANE This is taken from "Ancient Israel: It's Life and Institutions" by Roland de Vaux.
Devin, for me the link to the PDF is broken, so I tried to put it into my post - let's see.Have joy in the Lord!
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Thanks for catching that, NB.Mick. I edited the original post too so it should work there now as well.
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Understanding that the protestant view to Mary is very different than that of Catholicism, and I know that some protestants still can't distinguish between the two: it is important to note that Catholicism sees Mariology and Mariolatry as two completely different things.Bill Rust said:You might check this out for a Biblical refutation to mariology:
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This is Ted Sri's doctoral discertation. It is very scholary. The table of contents is below. Writing style can be seen in the sample pages from Chapter One. I'm not sure if it acceptable that I post the brief introduction here. I would be happy to do so if someone could give me a ruling and if it would help the forum readers. Let me know.
Introduction
Chapter One
Toward a Biblical Theology of Mary’s Queenship
1.1 Doctrinal Development of Mary’s Queenship
1.1.1 Church Fathers and Theologians in Later Centuries
1.1.2 Liturgy, Art, and Popular Piety
1.1.3 Magisterial Teaching
1.2 The Biblical Foundations of Mary’s Queenship
1.2.1 A Theology Detached from the Scriptures
1.2.2 Theological Deductions Drawn from Scripture
1.2.3 "Extra-Biblical" Typology
1.2.4 Salvation-Historical Approach: Mary as the New Queen Mother
Chapter Two
The Queen Mother in the Old Testament
2.1 The Queen Mother in the Ancient Near East
2.2 The Queen Mother in the Davidic Kingdom
2.2.1 Queen Mother: An Official Position in the Royal Court
2.2.2 The Queen Mother’s Influence in the Kingdom
2.3 Queen-Mother Themes in Israel’s Messianic Hopes
2.3.1 Isaiah 7:14
2.3.2 Genesis 3:15
Chapter Three
The Queen Mother and the New Testament Portrayal of Mary
3.1 Matthew 1–2
3.1.1 Davidic Kingdom Themes in Matthew 1–2
3.1.2 Queen-Mother Allusions in Matthew 1–2
3.2 Luke 1:26–45
3.2.1 The Annunciation (Luke 1:26–38)
3.2.1.1 Davidic Kingdom Themes in the Annunciation to Mary
3.2.1.2 Mary as Mother of the Messiah-King in the Annunciation
3.2.2 The Visitation (Lk. 1:39–45)
3.3 Revelation 12
3.3.1 Interpreting the "Woman Clothed with the Sun"
3.3.1.1 Background to the Woman in Revelation 12
3.3.1.2 Various Interpretations of the Woman
3.3.2 Queenship Themes in Revelation 12
Chapter Four
Summary Conclusions
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A couple of reviews on goodread.com: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/663045.Queen_Mother#other_reviews
Also this link is to an article not specifically mentioning the book, but that will give you a flavor of what you'll expect.
I searched for reviews of the book by protestants but could not find any.
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Sleiman said:
Understanding that the protestant view to Mary is very different than that of Catholicism, and I know that some protestants still can't distinguish between the two: it is important to note that Catholicism sees Mariology and Mariolatry as two completely different things.Bill Rust said:You might check this out for a Biblical refutation to mariology:
As a Lutheran, I find it quite helpful to read carefully Lumen Gentum to see what Rome says and does not say. I am not at all sure I would say all they say - let alone say that it is dogma, but there is a vast difference between what they actually say and what most protestants say they say. For a Logos link: logosres:vat2docs;ref=VaticanII.LG_51-69
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
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Ken McGuire said:
there is a vast difference between what they actually say and what most protestants say they say.
[y]
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Sleiman said:
Understanding that the protestant view to Mary is very different than that of Catholicism
Then you're understanding incorrectly -- as are all the Protestants that believe the same.[:P]
The reformers essentially confirmed Catholic Marian dogma. The rejection came with the Enlightenment and liberal theology, not with Protestantism as such.
Bruce Dunning said:Note that all month the focus will be on Mary
For those who don't know: May is always the Month of Mary in the Catholic Church. (Fits even better in Swedish, where the month is maj, and Maja is one of many nicknames for Maria.[:)])
Bruce Dunning said:other Logos resources that speak about this topic from different perspectives
- Catholic for a Reason II: Scripture and the Mystery of the Mother of God, Second Edition (Catholic. Currently not sold individually)
- The Catholic Mary: Quite Contrary to the Bible? (Catholic. Currently not sold individually)
- Mary for All Christians (Reformed/Ecumenical)
- Christian History & Biography Magazine, issue 83: Mary in the Imagination of the Church (Evangelical? Currently not sold individually)
- Luther's commentary on the Magnificat. Should be somewhere in Luther's Works (55 vols.)
Not [yet] in Logos:
- Raymond Brown et al: Mary in the New Testament. A Collaborative Assessment by Protestant and Roman Catholic Scholars
- Scott Hahn: Hail, Holy Queen
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Ken McGuire said:
As a Lutheran, I find it quite helpful to read carefully Lumen Gentum to see what Rome says and does not say. I am not at all sure I would say all they say - let alone say that it is dogma, but there is a vast difference between what they actually say and what most protestants say they say. For a Logos link: logosres:vat2docs;ref=VaticanII.LG_51-69
SDG
Ken McGuire
Another great summary is the Catechism.
I believe the two most important sections of the Catechism to see what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary would be:
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Peace, Bruce! *smile* Thanks for the "heads-up"! Appreciate your post! Hope to get the same e-mail....Bruce Dunning said:This resource is currently being offered by Logos at discount for the month of May - http://www.logos.com/product/20535/queen-mother-a-biblical-theology-of-marys-queenship?utm_source=catholic&utm_medium=email&utm_content=4487577&utm_campaign=verbum2013q2
I am not Catholic and have always been puzzled by their approach to Mary. I would be interested in hearing reviews of this book from different perspectives and would appreciate if anyone could point out to other Logos resources that speak about this topic from different perspectives.
I'm Lutheran and we have always regarded The Virgin Mary very highly! It's not a very expensive book, so I hope the "discount" will add to the desirability of the book ....
From the King James ....And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: For, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; And holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him
From generation to generation.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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I guess you assume I am a protestant. I am not 'protesting' anything. I believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God in the original languages, and that any issue of doctrine, whether Roman Catholic, or Protestant should be held to the standard of Scripture. Calling Mary the "Queen of heaven" has a big problem with Scripture (Jer 7:16-20). Calling her a mediator between us and Jesus has a similar issue (1 Tim 2:5). Calling her a co-redemptrix is a major problem (Gal 3:13, 4:5, Titus 2:14), and also with Hebrews 9:22 because of the necessity of shedding blood of a perfect, spotless sacrifice to cover forever the stain of our sin. She was not crucified, and having the stain of Adam's sin (Rom 5:12) she would not be spotless either.
The term mariolatry is a play on words that implies that the worship of Mary is idolatry. I hope this clears up any confusion.
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Bill Rust said:
I hope this clears up any confusion.
Bill - The Logos forums are for discussion of Logos Bible Software, and not for theological discussions. Please respect the rules of the forums.
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Sorry, just trying to clear up any confusion in my post.
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Thanks everyone for your responses. I knew that posting this topic carried a risk of digressing into a theological debate but that was not my intent. I actually am just really interested in reading about this from different perspectives and what resources best addressed this that Logos currently carries. I think I will purchase this book just to help increase my understanding. I hope others will consider doing the same.
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Steve said:
This is Ted Sri's doctoral discertation. It is very scholary. The table of contents is below. Writing style can be seen in the sample pages from Chapter One. I'm not sure if it acceptable that I post the brief introduction here. I would be happy to do so if someone could give me a ruling and if it would help the forum readers. Let me know.
I would love to read this dissertation. It is available for purchase?
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The book is the dissertation. It's Ed Sri by the way. It's a fascinating subject. Good reading!Bruce Dunning said:Steve said:This is Ted Sri's doctoral discertation. It is very scholary. The table of contents is below. Writing style can be seen in the sample pages from Chapter One. I'm not sure if it acceptable that I post the brief introduction here. I would be happy to do so if someone could give me a ruling and if it would help the forum readers. Let me know.
I would love to read this dissertation. It is available for purchase?
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Bill, peace be with you brother. While I don't appreciate equating Catholic understanding of Mariology as idolatry, I still appreciate your enthusiasm for scripture. As you might have guessed I am Catholic and I agree with your statement that any issue of doctrine should be held to the standard of scripture. The problem as you may agree, boils down to the issue of interpretation and who is interpreting scripture correctly. Isn't it good that more often than not, we agree on most issues? As baptized Christians we are all true brothers and sisters in the Lord (Eph 4:5). Sometimes perhaps because of our zeal we fail to see each others' point of view or even refuse to try. The wonderful thing about Logos is that there is a large collection of resources from almost every angle in Christianity including the 2000 year old Catholic Church.Bill Rust said:I guess you assume I am a protestant. I am not 'protesting' anything. I believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God in the original languages, and that any issue of doctrine, whether Roman Catholic, or Protestant should be held to the standard of Scripture. Calling Mary the "Queen of heaven" has a big problem with Scripture (Jer 7:16-20). Calling her a mediator between us and Jesus has a similar issue (1 Tim 2:5). Calling her a co-redemptrix is a major problem (Gal 3:13, 4:5, Titus 2:14), and also with Hebrews 9:22 because of the necessity of shedding blood of a perfect, spotless sacrifice to cover forever the stain of our sin. She was not crucified, and having the stain of Adam's sin (Rom 5:12) she would not be spotless either.
The term mariolatry is a play on words that implies that the worship of Mary is idolatry. I hope this clears up any confusion.
Instead of directly addressing the points you raised (which would be contrary to the rules of the forums), may I humbly suggest the same Logos resources suggested by Ken, fgh and Fr Devin in their posts above to help you see the Catholic point of view?
Ken succinctly expressed this as:
Ken McGuire said:there is a vast difference between what they actually say and what most protestants say they say.
Regarding the title 'Queen of Heaven', the book mentioned in the OP is really perfect to address the issue.
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Bruce Dunning said:
This resource is currently being offered by Logos at discount for the month of May - http://www.logos.com/product/20535/queen-mother-a-biblical-theology-of-marys-queenship?utm_source=catholic&utm_medium=email&utm_content=4487577&utm_campaign=verbum2013q2
I am not Catholic and have always been puzzled by their approach to Mary. I would be interested in hearing reviews of this book from different perspectives and would appreciate if anyone could point out to other Logos resources that speak about this topic from different perspectives.
While I am not a Catholic and never have been, I bought the book and read it immediately since the treatment of Mary by the Catholic Church has always been a matter of disagreement with me. It's good to see that they are making an attempt to ground their doctrine in the text of scripture, but it seems to me that their attempts rely on a considerable amount of deduction from positons which were never that clear in the first place. In regard to Is 7 it is assumed that the עלמה was the queen mother though there is virtually no evidence for that. In short, nice try, but no cigar.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Sleiman,
I would enjoy a discussion on this matter, but I am limited in what I am allowed to say, since to respond to your points would invoke theology. It is a shame really on a discussion board for Christian software.
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Bill Rust said:
It is a shame really on a discussion board for Christian software.
There is a time and a place for everything (Ecclesiastes 3:1, 7b). You are more than welcome to create a discussion group elsewhere (including on Faithlife) and invite people there. These forums, however, are indeed for what you wrote: a discussion board for "Christian" software. We all have our own theological beliefs & distinctives which are important to us. I have a number of "friends" in the forum with whom I would have strong theological differences, but we choose to lay those aside to assist others with using this software.
By the way, there are a number of other places which are inappropriate to have theological discussions. The first one that comes to mind is the library, ("Christian" or otherwise). When you come, feel free to ask questions about resources and how the library works. These forums are the same. To do otherwise would be rude and disrespectful to the other patrons. [;)]
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Bill Rust said:
I would enjoy a discussion on this matter, but I am limited in what I am allowed to say, since to respond to your points would invoke theology.
For theological discussions, one option is using => https://faithlife.com/ that allows group members to share many Logos documents => https://documents.logos.com
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Bruce Dunning said:
I am not Catholic and have always been puzzled by their approach to Mary.
I would suggest that you check out Mary Through the Centuries: Her Place in the History of Culture by Jaroslav Pelikan [not in Logos] as this is a case where an understanding of church history - east & west - is more helpful in understanding than the Biblical defense.
Mary for All Christians by John Macquarrie [in Logos] is a useful resource by a Reformed theologian; Table of Contents
Foreword to the Second Edition
Foreword
Acknowledgements
Introduction: Annunciation
PART ONE
1 God and the Feminine
2 Mary in the New Testament
3 Immaculate Conception
4 Glorious Assumption
5 Mary Corredemptrix
6 Mary and Modernity
PART TWO
An Ecumenical Office of Mary the Mother of Jesus
John Macquarrie, Mary for All Christians (Edinburgh, Scotland: T&T Clark, 2001), v.This has the advantage of being written by someone who doesn't assume the knowledge that a Catholic can be assumed to have.
None of which is intended to discourage the purchase of Queen Mother: A Biblical Theology of Mary's Queenship, merely to note that there are other resources to consider that may fit your purpose better.
Bill Rust said:You might check this out for a Biblical refutation to mariology:
http://churchmousec.wordpress.com/2010/11/18/john-macarthur-on-mariolatry-part-1/
http://churchmousec.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/john-macarthur-on-mariolatry-part-2/
I'm glad this is not typical of John MacArthur. It does serve as a very good example of why one should read Pelikan, Macquarrie and Sri to have an accurate picture of what you are accepting/rejecting. These blog posts earn their own personal, ultra-large and rare version of the famous hound
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Southern Baptist? http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/03/evangelicals-and-the-mother-of-god-40
Anyone know this resource? Mary for Evangelicals: Toward an Understanding of the Mother of Our Lord by Tim Perry
Some sources from the reformation:
Because the blog from which this is taken deserves it's own fallacy hound, rather than giving the link I am giving only the quotations. This simply helps but things in historical perspective if you don't want the real history i.e. Pelikan.
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."6 Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin: It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."16
NOTES
1 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], volume 24, 107.
2 Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320.
3 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works,
English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.
Louis], Volume 4, 694.
4 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, p. 268.
5 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works
(Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.
6 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], Volume 51, 128-129.
7 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.
8 Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.
9 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.
10 John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.
11 Ulrich Zwingli, In Evang. Luc., Opera Completa [Zurich, 1828-42], Volume 6, I, 639
12 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.
13 E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
14 Ibid.
15 Ibid.
16 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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[y]MJ. Smith said:Bill Rust said:You might check this out for a Biblical refutation to mariology:
http://churchmousec.wordpress.com/2010/11/18/john-macarthur-on-mariolatry-part-1/
http://churchmousec.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/john-macarthur-on-mariolatry-part-2/
I'm glad this is not typical of John MacArthur. It does serve as a very good example of why one should read Pelikan, Macquarrie and Sri to have an accurate picture of what you are accepting/rejecting. These blog posts earn their own personal, ultra-large and rare version of the famous hound
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Bruce Dunning said:Steve said:
This is Ted Sri's doctoral discertation. It is very scholary. The table of contents is below. Writing style can be seen in the sample pages from Chapter One. I'm not sure if it acceptable that I post the brief introduction here. I would be happy to do so if someone could give me a ruling and if it would help the forum readers. Let me know.
I would love to read this dissertation. It is available for purchase?
Hi Bruce,Sleiman already replied but I wanted to make sure you were clear. The book of which you are asking about is Dr. Sri's published discertation. It's a little dense at times but worth the effort.Blessings,Steve0