Stop converting books from Vyrso to Logos!!!!

Here's my beef. In Vyrso, you have this competitively priced book that you can search in Logos and have simple references linked.

And then it gets LOGOS-ed. Surprise

Suddenly, it gets pulled from the Vyrso. Now, all of a sudden you have to pay twice as much for it. That's if you're lucky. If you're unlucky, it gets tossed into a bundle of a dozen other books, so that you have to order all of them to get the one you want.

For what? What was wrong with it in Vyrso? Oh, now it's linked better with your resources. But I don't care if it's linked better, I just want to read it! Too bad. Sad

Let the Nations Be Glad was priced at $10.19. Now it's gone from Vyrso. You can get it in Logos Pre-Pub though, but with 19 other books, for a grand total of $269.95! And who knows how long it will take for the whole bundle to get through Pre-Pub.

Will the Logos version be superior? The Scripture references will be checked, and the footnotes will link to other books, but at best that will save you a few seconds of pulling up another resource in the library. And some Logos resources are still poorly tagged.

Here's my plea -- if you publish a Bible Commentary, or a Bible Dictionary, or some other reference work that's made to be linked to Logos features, have it be a Logos resource.

But if you publish a book that's meant to be read through... keep it in Vyrso. I'd much rather have it competitively priced than have it priced twice as high and/or put into a bundle just for additional tagging.

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Comments

Jacob Hantla

For my part, please don't listen to the original poster. I love it when my books get Logos'ed. THen the book I got cheap on Vyrso where I'm annoyed that my links don't work are all nice for free. So as long as you've already purchased the book you want, you are fine.

I do understand his annoyance, however. I do think that when this happens, the books should probably be individually for sale.

It is interested that on the 9 marks collection, the resources that are on prepub to be Logos'ed are still available in Vyrso. You can purchase them now and then they will be Logos'ed later (you save big time on what you're interested in). They did not do this with Let the Nations Be Glad, however.

Rosie Perera

Elnwood, I don't know if you're aware, but this is actually a great deal *if* you've bought the Vyrso book already. You don't have to pay again for it, you get the upgrade to a Logos edition for free.

So I guess the moral of the story is, stretch now to buy whatever is on your wishlist from Vyrso, because you never know if it might become a Logos book at some time in the future and cost more.

Logos could do a better job of informing people when Vyrso books are going to be upgraded to Logos editions, so that people have one last chance to buy them at the Vyrso price.

FWIW, this upgrading to Logos has been done on a very tiny fraction of the book in the Vyrso catalog, and I am guessing that will remain the case. Most of the Vyrso books don't make any sense to convert to Logos editions.

Also, for another perspective, see this thread where people are giving their criteria for when a book should be a Logos edition instead of a Vyrso ebook. I've listed several books which I think belong as Logos editions, because of their features (commentary, calendar devotional, etc.), in that thread:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/71989/501372.aspx#501372

elnwood

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509502#Comment_509502

So I guess the moral of the story is, stretch now to buy whatever is on your wishlist from Vyrso, because you never know if it might become a Logos book at some time in the future and cost more.

My wishlist for Vyrso is empty, because ... well, I don't think Vyrso has a wishlist feature. But that's a complaint for another thread.

I'm all for free upgrades from Vyrso to Logos. What I don't like is that the Logos prices and bundling that come with it! If we could upgrade them and keep the products at Vyrso prices and not in bundles, that would be best.

What it comes down to for me is that if it's a book that I'm going to read through, I won't buy it in Logos. It's just too expensive, I don't need tagging, and it's easier and cheaper to buy and read it on an e-ink reader or a hard copy.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509504#Comment_509504

My wishlist for Vyrso is empty, because ... well, I don't think Vyrso has a wishlist feature.

I was speaking metaphorically, about your virtual wishlist. As soon as I notice a book in Vyrso that I might like to buy, since there is no wishlist feature, and since I have a fairly large book buying budget, I buy it immediately. I realize that might not be your situation, though. In which case I can sympathize with your aggravation at missing out on Vyrso prices because you couldn't afford to buy the book at the time and then found it to be priced out of your affordability range once it's in Logos.

I'm all for free upgrades from Vyrso to Logos. What I don't like is that the Logos prices and bundling that come with it!

Agreed that Logos should not force bundling on books that have previously been available as stand-alone in Vyrso. But they do have to recoup their costs for tagging, so I can understand them needing to charge more for the single volume than a straight etext which they do nothing to upon receiving the digital files from the publisher (on those, when they sell them at Vyrso prices, they are barely breaking even).

What it comes down to for me is that if it's a book that I'm going to read through, I won't buy it in Logos. It's just too expensive, I don't need tagging, and it's easier and cheaper to buy and read it on an e-ink reader or a hard copy.

Makes total sense if you don't need the Logos tagging or the integration with your Library (full library searching, for example; right click to look up words, etc.). In fact, I do that often with read-through books that I don't already have in Logos and that are cheaper in Kindle, or that aren't yet available in Logos or Vyrso. I find the Kindle reader (for Android, the platform I use it on most often) better/faster for simply reading through a book and perhaps some single-color highlighting. It doesn't have the great search features (search across whole library) and library management features (user tagging) that Logos has, but for just reading it can't be beat.

Tom Reynolds

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509506#Comment_509506

I have to agree with the op with regard to Let the Nations Be Glad! There is no good reason to bundle this and prevent people from picking it up. The other thread regarding this book makes the reason clear. Now it can't be purchased by your friend as a standalone - they have to wait for the collection to be produced and then buy a bunch of other books they don't want. I'm sure this is driving sales to other ebook platforms but Logos seems to like the revenue from collections more than increased V sales.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509539#Comment_509539

I think the whole collections model is untenable for topical areas like this particular one (Global Missions). It's one thing to bundle all the volumes of a commentary set together and sell that for a discount off the price of buying every volume individually. Or a really high quality reference collection such as Essential IVP Reference Collection or Zondervan Bible Reference Bundle. Or even (possibly) all the books by a given author who is an author people are likely to want to collect all the works of (Calvin, Spurgeon, Luther, etc.). But when it comes to a contemporary topical subject, bundling so many titles together (20 in the case of the Global Missions Collection) is counter-productive. I could see maybe 3 or 4 max. But if I'm wanting to learn more about global missions, there is no way I'm going to shell out for 20 books about that topic.

Evidently there are some people who are missions junkies, as evidenced by the fact that there are any orders at all on this collection (it's sitting at about 25%). But why should everyone else who is not a missions junkie (which I'm guessing is most of us) have to wait months or more until this collection is unbundled to get the one or two titles in it that they might be interested in?

The only title in that collection I'm interested in is A Light to the Nations: The Missional Church and the Biblical Story by Michael Goheen. I might not ever buy it, because to do so would require making a note to myself to come back and look for it after it's unbundled. There are simply way too many books in the Logos catalog now to keep track of all my "maybe I'll buy this someday if it ever gets unbundled" wish list items. So it means a potential loss of revenue for Logos that they're not making it available as a stand-alone from the get-go.

In summary, I agree with the earlier posters (elnwood and Tom Reynolds) that arbitrary forced bundling is not good and should be eliminated. If it's not required by the publishers (and why would it be? they don't do that for Kindle books), then stop it! Especially these huge topical bundles.

Bruce Dunning

Let the Nations Be Glad was priced at $10.19. Now it's gone from Vyrso. You can get it in Logos Pre-Pub though, but with 19 other books, for a grand total of $269.95! And who knows how long it will take for the whole bundle to get through Pre-Pub.

Although I don't agree with you on Logos' tactic of changing a Vyrso book to Logos format and do totally agree with you that individual books should not be put in sets as your example clearly shows. I like the idea of collections for they are often a better deal but they should ideally also be available for individual sale.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509546#Comment_509546

'Please don't listen to the poster.' Huh? Logos blindly listens?

What is it about star-people that seems to encourage this. Yesterday another star person was busily racking up points on the current political issues.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509560#Comment_509560

Yesterday another star person was busily racking up points on the current political issues.

Oh, Denise! (Today he's racking up points saying "Oh, Denise!")

FWIW: I agree with the original post that a single title from Vyrso should remain available in Vyrso until it is available in Logos. Placing it in a Pre-Pub bundle is also fine so long as it is offered singly as soon as it is dropped from Vyrso. There is no reason we can't have both options. To bury a title by John Piper in a "forthcoming bundle" making it unavailable for 8 months is unnecessary.

As to the snide political comment I posted, I apologize I did delete it.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509560#Comment_509560

But when it comes to a contemporary topical subject, bundling so many titles together (20 in the case of the Global Missions Collection) is counter-productive.

I totally agree with this. I fondly remember when I used to browse the new book and pre-pub lists to discover new single titles that I would buy. This rarely happens anymore

What is it about star-people that seems to encourage this.

Someday, all the Sneetches will forgot about stars
and whether They had one, or not, upon thars.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509599#Comment_509599

Oh ST ... you're such a kind soul!

Plus I've never met a sneetch I didn't like.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509607#Comment_509607

Plus I've never met a sneetch I didn't like.

Me either.

Brian Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509636#Comment_509636

Elnwood - Thank you for your feedback. I understand that the situation can be frustrating and I apologize that you can't buy Let the Nations Be Glad as a stand alone title at this time. In most cases, any ebook that we put into Vyrso will stay in Vyrso. There are rare occasions–as with Let the Nations Be Glad–that a publisher signs a new contract to have the ebook in Logos. We are constantly working to improve the system, thank you for your patience!

Rosie, Tom, Jacob, Denise, ST, Todd, and alabama24 - Thank you for your feedback! I appreciate the wit, reasoning, and commitment you all have for making Logos Bible Software the best place to buy Christian ebooks and resources. I'll be sure to talk about your different arguments with the rest of the team.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509649#Comment_509649

I'll be sure to talk about your different arguments with the rest of the team.

Thanks. All I'm asking is keep the Vyrso title available until the Logos version is available singly. We will buy more books that way.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509651#Comment_509651

All I'm asking is keep the Vyrso title available until the Logos version is available singly.

I think Brian was trying to say that a new contract was signed, negating logos ability to sell via Vyrso. The contract structures are different.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509654#Comment_509654

All I'm asking is keep the Vyrso title available until the Logos version is available singly.

I think Brian was trying to say that a new contract was signed, negating logos ability to sell via Vyrso. The contract structures are different.

And I'm saying it was poorly negotiated. Don't make that mistake again. It is presumably everybody's desire to sell books (except maybe Moody [6].) All potential sales are gutted when they deep-sixed Piper's book in a Pre-Pub. We can not even place a Pre-Pub in our wish lists. There is no way to keep track of the Piper book without ordering 19 other books. Does Piper really want to carry 19 other books on his back for 8 months?

Bad negotiating, bad contract.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509657#Comment_509657

It is presumably everybody's desire to sell books (except maybe Moody .)

Oh, yeah. There was also that Oxford guy who pulled the plug on the Oxford Latin Dictionary. And then there was Logos pulling the plug on the Samaritan Pentateuch. Maybe selling books is over-rated.

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509499#Comment_509499

For my part, please don't listen to the original poster. I love it when my books get Logos'ed. THen the book I got cheap on Vyrso where I'm annoyed that my links don't work are all nice for free. So as long as you've already purchased the book you want, you are fine.

I do understand his annoyance, however. I do think that when this happens, the books should probably be individually for sale.

It is interested that on the 9 marks collection, the resources that are on prepub to be Logos'ed are still available in Vyrso. You can purchase them now and then they will be Logos'ed later (you save big time on what you're interested in). They did not do this with Let the Nations Be Glad, however.

i just don't get it, why can't we keep both. If you Jacob in this case like Logos edition, good, pay hundreds of $$$ for collections with a better quality, but if I want just to read the book, why can't I just order from Vyrso cheaper one.

People vote with their wallets. What's wrong to have both?

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509661#Comment_509661

i just don't get it, why can't we keep both.

We CAN have both if the contract is written that way.

If you Jacob in this case like Logos edition, good, pay hundreds of $$$ for collections with a better quality,

Jacob is buying the Vyrso edition and getting a free upgrade to the Logos edition. He is not buying 20 books and waiting 8 months to read it. I am all for everyone buying the Vyrso edition and getting free upgrades. I just don't see why we lose access to the book while it is in "development."

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509667#Comment_509667

i just don't get it, why can't we keep both.

We CAN have both if the contract is written that way.

I don't know of any books that are simultaneously available in both Vyrso and Logos. I don't think Logos has much incentive to write the contracts this way. If they have to do the work to convert it to a Logos edition book anyway, why not get more money for it all the time? I'm guessing the publishers would probably be on this side of the issue too. Unless both could be convinced they'd sell an awful lot more copies of the book if they had the cheaper option available.

I think the main reason they're not likely to want to make both available simultaneously is that having a Vyrso edition available too would eat into their sales of the Logos edition, making it harder for them to recoup the costs of converting it to that more fully integrated digital format. If they do all this work to make it into a Logos edition, and only 10% of users by the Logos version, while 90% buy the Vyrso edition that gives them virtually no margin, they aren't going to be happy they put all that work into it.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509672#Comment_509672

I think the main reason they're not likely to want to make both available simultaneously is that having a Vyrso edition available too would eat into their sales of the Logos edition, making it harder for them to recoup the costs of converting it to that more fully integrated digital format.

I'm not asking for them to be available simultaneously. They can pull the Vyrso edition as soon as the Logos edition is made available. The way it stands now we will have to wait 8 months and buy 19 additional volumes we might not want just to get the one book. That puts a lot of pressure on Piper to sell 19 books he did not write. It also forces us to go to the Christian book store and buy a paper copy if we want to read it now.

elnwood

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509499#Comment_509499

It is interested that on the 9 marks collection, the resources that are on prepub to be Logos'ed are still available in Vyrso. You can purchase them now and then they will be Logos'ed later (you save big time on what you're interested in). They did not do this with Let the Nations Be Glad, however.

This is a prime example of a collection that has very little benefit for the Logos conversion. These are not academic books.

For example, I have Mark Dever's What is a Healthy Church? It is 127 pages long and has no footnotes. The only references it has are three book recommendations on evangelism and two other 9Marks book suggestions for learning more, but they aren't quoted or anything.

Logos should not be spending time converting these books and then passing the cost onto the consumer.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509680#Comment_509680

For example, I have Mark Dever's What is a Healthy Church? It is 127 pages long and has no footnotes. The only references it has are three book recommendations on evangelism and two other 9Marks book suggestions for learning more, but they aren't quoted or anything.

Logos should not be spending time converting these books and then passing the cost onto the consumer.

This example should be "converted" to Logos with 10 minutes of work. Then the price will double. [:O]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509679#Comment_509679

I think the main reason they're not likely to want to make both available simultaneously is that having a Vyrso edition available too would eat into their sales of the Logos edition, making it harder for them to recoup the costs of converting it to that more fully integrated digital format.

I'm not asking for them to be available simultaneously. They can pull the Vyrso edition as soon as the Logos edition is made available. The way it stands now we will have to wait 8 months and buy 19 additional volumes we might not want just to get the one book. That puts a lot of pressure on Piper to sell 19 books he did not write. It also forces us to go to the Christian book store and buy a paper copy if we want to read it now.

Context, context, ST. I was replying to your response to Wild Eagle, who wanted both to be available simultaneously. After that bit you quoted, he went on to say "If you Jacob in this case like Logos edition, good, pay hundreds of $$$ for collections with a better quality, but if I want just to read the book, why can't I just order from Vyrso cheaper one."

I'm totally with you that it's silly to pull the Vyrso edition as soon as a pre-pub shows up for a Logos edition. The only way I'd understand them doing this would be if they'd had it in pre-pub in Vyrso, and it hadn't yet shipped there, and they decided before even releasing the product to upgrade it to a Logos edition. But in that case I would expect that anyone who had already ordered the pre-pub while it was a Vyrso pre-pub would be grandfathered in and not have to pay the higher Logos edition pre-pub price.

elnwood

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509542#Comment_509542

I think the whole collections model is untenable for topical areas like this particular one (Global Missions). It's one thing to bundle all the volumes of a commentary set together and sell that for a discount off the price of buying every volume individually. Or a really high quality reference collection such as Essential IVP Reference Collection or Zondervan Bible Reference Bundle. Or even (possibly) all the books by a given author who is an author people are likely to want to collect all the works of (Calvin, Spurgeon, Luther, etc.). But when it comes to a contemporary topical subject, bundling so many titles together (20 in the case of the Global Missions Collection) is counter-productive. I could see maybe 3 or 4 max. But if I'm wanting to learn more about global missions, there is no way I'm going to shell out for 20 books about that topic.

Not to mention that those of us who are focused on Global Missions also tend to have a tighter budget and can't justify dropping $269.95 on a 20 book collection. Logos offers academic discounts, but offers no discounts for overseas missionaries. I'm passing on this bundle, and will get some of them as needed ... probably used editions in hard copy. Again, a lot of these aren't particularly valuable to have in Logos format.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509699#Comment_509699

Again, a lot of these aren't particularly valuable to have in Logos format.

To each his own... My time in the forums leans heavy towards the iOS & Vyrso forums. It is very common for some users to complain about:

Typos generated in the conversion process.
Footnotes not linked properly.
mistakes in the auto hyperlink process.

I am sympathetic to your position. When I'm given a choice of a much lower Kindle book or an expensive Logos edition, I weigh the benefits and drawbacks of each. In most cases where a book might be ok for Vyrso OR Logos (a "to be read" volume without much to be tagged), I will pick it up on sale in kindle. If the book would need a great deal of work and the sale isn't great, I'd wait or buy Logos. More often than not, when a resource is in Vyrso and Kindle, I'll get the Vyrso edition... But note, Logos isn't making much on these volumes. If Logos decides to switch a resource, it means manhours on their part. Pulling the volume makes sense. Bundling... That is a separate issue... Generally, I'm not a fan.