OT: Intriguing article on digital Bibles
Comments
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Dan Francis said:
Many great features but I could't imagine disturbing a church service by taking a poll….
What about a test? Was it Moses, Abraham, or Jesus? And showing on screen how many don't know. [what studies do we need to do?]
And Yes, maybe not in the middle of the divine service but what about in other meetings like bible studies and other training?
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George Somsel said:Dan Francis said:
Many great features but I could't imagine disturbing a church service by taking a poll….
I'm not so sure about any "great features", but I agree that taking a poll during the service is not one—in fact, I'd call it an abysmally stupid idea.
Engaging people directly… I mean having a notification that something is going on, special prayer requests, those types of things all in one place on the phone, also knowing that people have a Bible with them, even if only electronic is a step ahead for some.
-Dan
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Denise said:
I think you guys DO have middle ages churches (heavy traditions).
Not Middle Ages ... back to Jewish roots and the heavenly celebration of Revelation. In my parish, a woman brings her dog ... a previous priest brought his dog to weekday services. We are considered the best parish for the mentally challenged and have "raised" two severely austisic boys. We have had the mentally ill pace in the side aisle muttering during services. While we have only occasional Spanish-English services, a local parish has a trilingual service - Cantonese, Mandarin and a bit of English. The homily is given twice - once in Cantonese, once in Mandarin. We've had a family of madrigal singers as musicians with absolutely no warning - the music director for the service had gone into early labor. We have 6 Sunday Masses. We have been growing at 17% a year and are planning a major expansion. We are also noted for having some of the best liturgy around - only a small percentage of the parish lives within parish boundaries. Good liturgy and good homilies keep them coming.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Denise said:
Apparently latin mass was (is?) not easy to come by.
True - there was a real uproar when we dropped the Latin Mass (Dominican rite) although we still use it 4 times a year as a service to Dominicans. Few young priests know Latin well enough to be comfortable with the Latin and few are trained in the rite.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ, can you elaborate? Isn't it the same liturgy we also celebrate in our local Catholic parish? Homilies differ of course, but certainly not liturgies? Do you mean you use incense more often for example or something to this effect?MJ. Smith said:We are also noted for having some of the best liturgy around
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alabama24 said:George Somsel said:
I'm not so sure about any "great features", but I agree that taking a poll during the service is not one—in fact, I'd call it an abysmally stupid idea.
Now, now George. I bet if a poll went up in your church service and asked "should we designate money for pew bibles or reverse interlinears," you would be jumping over pews and digging through purses looking for a smart phone to vote on.
No, I would be jumping up and down on the pew seat insisting that a service is not the proper venue for such. Call a congregational meeting.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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[Y]George Somsel said:No, I would be jumping up and down on the pew seat insisting that a service is not the proper venue for such. Call a congregational meeting.
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David Ames said:Dan Francis said:
Many great features but I could't imagine disturbing a church service by taking a poll….
What about a test? Was it Moses, Abraham, or Jesus? And showing on screen how many don't know. [what studies do we need to do?]
And Yes, maybe not in the middle of the divine service but what about in other meetings like bible studies and other training?
Totally inappropriate
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Dan Francis said:
Engaging people directly…
We Catholics are weird this way (as are the Orthodox) ... somehow we think the presence of God in our midst and participation in the divine, heavenly liturgy is engaging in and of itself. But that gets into theology not logistics. Much of modern technology has its place in church - I can easily see a screen making an American Sign Language interpreter visible throughout the church. Technology makes printed Orders of Worship able to reflect the needs of the anticipated congregation e.g. a funeral that expects a large non-Catholic contingent, a Mass that has been "hijacked" by a national convention of ethnic Armenians (yes, it really happened) ... Just don't let the technology interfere with the purpose, experience or continuity of the service.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dan Francis said:George Somsel said:Dan Francis said:
Many great features but I could't imagine disturbing a church service by taking a poll….
I'm not so sure about any "great features", but I agree that taking a poll during the service is not one—in fact, I'd call it an abysmally stupid idea.
Engaging people directly… I mean having a notification that something is going on, special prayer requests, those types of things all in one place on the phone, also knowing that people have a Bible with them, even if only electronic is a step ahead for some.
-Dan
There is a bulletin and a website. Pew bibles eliminate any need to ensure that people have a bible with them.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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MJ. Smith said:Dan Francis said:
Engaging people directly…
We Catholics are weird this way (as are the Orthodox) ... somehow we think the presence of God in our midst and participation in the divine, heavenly liturgy is engaging in and of itself. But that gets into theology not logistics. Much of modern technology has its place in church - I can easily see a screen making an American Sign Language interpreter visible throughout the church. Technology makes printed Orders of Worship able to reflect the needs of the anticipated congregation e.g. a funeral that expects a large non-Catholic contingent, a Mass that has been "hijacked" by a national convention of ethnic Armenians (yet, it really happened) ... Just don't let the technology interfere with the purpose, experience or continuity of the service.
[Y] [Y] Two thumbs up.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Sleiman said:
MJ, can you elaborate?MJ. Smith said:We are also noted for having some of the best liturgy around
The liturgy is set by the ritual books and norms but the quality of the execution varies greatly as does the understanding and implementation of the norms. In liturgical training one learns of some very funny (and sad) local examples of bad taste, bad understanding, bad execution. Our Sunday Masses range from contemplative (very simple, with 2 voice chant as music), to contemporary for families, to classical with incense ... with 6 Masses we can offer variety. But it is the small things - focus always kept on the right place of action, the smoothness of action (and lack of unnecessary/distracting action), subtle hints of season (recessional instrumental only during Advent, silent during Lent), music and decor that fit our space (a major test for our liturgist when he first arrived), spoken words understandable throughout the space (and of appropriate pitch, volume, accent) ... a while back we had a pastor who was a liturgical historian ... his legacy of knowing what you do and why has lived on, although few in the current congregation knew him.
In the interest of full disclosure: I was the liturgist for our parish for a decade or so ... we now have a paid professional.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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[:)]Aren't we crazy?!MJ. Smith said:We Catholics are weird this way (as are the Orthodox) ... somehow we think the presence of God in our midst and participation in the divine, heavenly liturgy is engaging in and of itself.
wow, this thread is growing at an exponential rate! Obviously some of us are passionate about this issue. What's common with all of us id that we all use technology in our bible studies. However, the posts have been all over the place; I think some distinctions need to be made.
Private study vs public worship is one such important distinction that some are missing (either on purpose or not). It seems that for some, there is no need to distinguish between each mode of worship. The deeper question is therefore not a matter of pro- vs anti- technology but rather whether public Sunday worship is (or should be) different from private worship or prayer. Do you think communal worship is important or is it purely an individual singular experience? Is there a need to go to church on Sunday or would you think that an avatar of you going to church on Sunday is an acceptable alternative? Is there a line that should never be crossed? Where do you draw it?
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Thank you; that makes sense. I'm a little jealous now; although in all honesty our execution is usually pretty good too; except on those occasional school Masses where most of the parents are Easter/Christmas 'christians', oh dear!MJ. Smith said:The liturgy is set by the ritual books and norms but the quality of the execution varies greatly as does the understanding and implementation of the norms. In liturgical training one learns of some very funny (and sad) local examples of bad taste, bad understanding, bad execution. Our Sunday Masses range from contemplative (very simple, with 2 voice chant as music), to contemporary for families, to classical with incense ... with 6 Masses we can offer variety. But it is the small things - focus always kept on the right place of action, the smoothness of action (and lack of unnecessary/distracting action), subtle hints of season (recessional instrumental only during Advent, silent during Lent), music and decor that fit our space (a major test for our liturgist when he first arrived), spoken words understandable throughout the space (and of appropriate pitch, volume, accent) ... a while back we had a pastor who was a liturgical historian ... his legacy of knowing what you do and why has lived on, although few in the current congregation knew him.
In the interest of full disclosure: I was the liturgist for our parish for a decade or so ... we now have a paid professional.
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Sleiman said:
Is there a need to go to church on Sunday or would you think that an avatar of you going to church on Sunday is an acceptable alternative?
My avatar [6]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
My avatar
What do you do with your tail when you genuflect George? [:P]
As long as we're gorgeously off-course on a lazy summer afternoon: so George, what's your beef with interlinears?
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Sleiman said:
Thank you; that makes sense. I'm a little jealous now; although in all honesty our execution is usually pretty good too; except on those occasional school Masses where most of the parents are Easter/Christmas 'christians', oh dear!
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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MJ. Smith said:
But it is the small things
Even in a non liturgical service it is the small things. [Are the people on the platform paying attention to the service or talking? And if they are talking are they talking about the service? That is did the preacher change the scripture reading or does one of the persons spoken to rush out of the Sanctuary?]
Sleiman said:Easter/Christmas 'christians', oh dear!
You still have two shots every year to reach them.
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Butters said:
As long as we're gorgeously off-course on a lazy summer afternoon: so George, what's your beef with interlinears?
- They engender the misconception that the one using an interlinear actually gains something from the original language.
- They hinder the actual learning of the language.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Who says I genuflect?
Well I assume you don't send your [6] avatar either! [:D]
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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George Somsel said:Butters said:
As long as we're gorgeously off-course on a lazy summer afternoon: so George, what's your beef with interlinears?
- They engender the misconception that the one using an interlinear actually gains something from the original language.
- They hinder the actual learning of the language.
I have to agree with that.
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Now George. Surely you have to admit that when the pastor is in Navajo and you're in english, an interlinear at least gets you in the ball park.
Personally, absent a serious scholar (you), I very much doubt that reading the hebrew/greek 2,000 years later is of much value, except to confirm ones opinions. A schoolboy in a village near Ephesus at the time is more likely to grasp the 'correct' meaning.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Now George. Surely you have to admit that when the pastor is in Navajo and you're in english, an interlinear at least gets you in the ball park.
Makes sense in that situation methinks.
[quote] Personally, absent a serious scholar (you), I very much doubt that reading the hebrew/greek 2,000 years later is of much value, except to confirm ones opinions.
Couldn't disagree more: to read the language directly that Paul wrote, and perhaps Christ spoke, is not only thrilling, but one can find profound meaning embedded in the original Greek (I don't read Hebrew) that obviously cannot be found in a translation; and besides, the Greek is gorgeous and so intertwined with the meaning, and no translation can ever convey that. Moreover, it seems to me that the exact opposite happens (to confirming one's opinions.)
[quote] A schoolboy in a village near Ephesus at the time is more likely to grasp the 'correct' meaning.
That probably is true.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Denise said:
Now George. Surely you have to admit that when the pastor is in Navajo and you're in english, an interlinear at least gets you in the ball park.
Personally, absent a serious scholar (you), I very much doubt that reading the hebrew/greek 2,000 years later is of much value, except to confirm ones opinions. A schoolboy in a village near Ephesus at the time is more likely to grasp the 'correct' meaning.
I'm hardly the only "serious" scholar of Greek. How about Wescott, Hort, Swete, Smyth? Oh, they're all dead white guys. There would be plenty of Greek scholars if cemetaries quit teaching courses in "Methods of Genuflecting" and taught something worthwhile. Soon Ministers will be as incompetent as public school teachers.
If I show up at one of your Navaho services, I expect an interlinear of the sermon (I can assure you that the Navaho line will be about as useful to me as the Greek line is to users of NT interlinears. Make sure that's a reverse interlinear.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
There would be plenty of Greek scholars if cemetaries quit teaching courses in "Methods of Genuflecting" and taught something worthwhile.
It's easy George. I'll show you in all of 12 seconds.
"The worshipper never feels taller than when he bows." ~G.K. Chesterton
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Butters said:George Somsel said:
There would be plenty of Greek scholars if cemetaries quit teaching courses in "Methods of Genuflecting" and taught something worthwhile.
It's easy George. I'll show you in all of 12 seconds.
"The worshipper never feels taller than when he bows." ~G.K. Chesterton
~Butters
I know it's easy, and I can most likely manage without instruction. I was being somewhat ironic about some courses I heard of among education students when I was in college such as "Methods of Teaching Arithmetic." I would say that the most important factor in teaching arithmetic is that you know it yourself. BTW: Did you know that education students consistently are the least proficient of any students on any campus?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I know it's easy, and I can most likely manage without instruction. I was being somewhat ironic about some courses I heard of among education students when I was in college such as "Methods of Teaching Arithmetic." I would say that the most important factor in teaching arithmetic is that you know it yourself. BTW: Did you know that education students consistently are the least proficient of any students on any campus?
I KNOW you were joking George! Was just playin' around! [:P]
I think you're exactly correct about the nature of teaching; and not only should you know arithmetic, for example, but you should love it; because part of what you're imparting is a love for the subject.
I am not surprised at all about education students; and this and all the theory they make up is why Americans are about to be dumbed down even further with the Common Core initiative. Truly beyond puzzling.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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It should be a crime for a seminary to give an M.Div degree without requiring Greek and Hebrew, and not just the basic courses, but Greek and Hebrew exegesis courses as well.George Somsel said:I'm hardly the only "serious" scholar of Greek. How about Wescott, Hort, Swete, Smyth? Oh, they're all dead white guys. There would be plenty of Greek scholars if cemetaries quit teaching courses in "Methods of Genuflecting" and taught something worthwhile. Soon Ministers will be as incompetent as public school teachers.
If I show up at one of your Navaho services, I expect an interlinear of the sermon (I can assure you that the Navaho line will be about as useful to me as the Greek line is to users of NT interlinears. Make sure that's a reverse interlinear.
If you went to Asbury in the 1970's, you took 6 hours of Greek that you could not count toward your M.Div. because you were supposed to know basic Greek grammar before you started. Now even Asbury has wimped out and lets them count those 6 hours of Greek as an elective toward their degree. I am most disappointed in them. Heretics!
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
MJ. Smith said:Denise said:
I think you guys DO have middle ages churches (heavy traditions).
Not Middle Ages ... back to Jewish roots and the heavenly celebration of Revelation. In my parish, a woman brings her dog ... a previous priest brought his dog to weekday services. We are considered the best parish for the mentally challenged and have "raised" two severely austisic boys. We have had the mentally ill pace in the side aisle muttering during services. While we have only occasional Spanish-English services, a local parish has a trilingual service - Cantonese, Mandarin and a bit of English. The homily is given twice - once in Cantonese, once in Mandarin. We've had a family of madrigal singers as musicians with absolutely no warning - the music director for the service had gone into early labor. We have 6 Sunday Masses. We have been growing at 17% a year and are planning a major expansion. We are also noted for having some of the best liturgy around - only a small percentage of the parish lives within parish boundaries. Good liturgy and good homilies keep them coming.
I love it that the down-and-outs and marginal people are welcome at your service. Now, that to me is one invariant, non-negotiable element of communal worship.
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