John 1 interpretation
Outside of a theological perspective where someone assumes that "word" in John 1:1 is or is not Jesus.
1/ John 1:1 How is it decided that logos or word becomes capitalized? Where in the Greek sentence is this indicated? How does the sentence indicate logos refers to a person rather than to "creative expression"?
2/ In John 1:2 How does the sentence or a translator decide how "houtos" should be translated.
Our software shows houtos is "he" in the Darby, ESV, GW, HCSB, ISV, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, etc
and "the same" in the ASV, AV, DR, KJV,
and "this one" in the LEB, Youngs,
Is the decision based on vs2 or on whether the translator has decided to capitalize Word in vs 1?
3/ In John 1:3 How does the sentence indicate if houtos/him is referring to God in the middle of vs2 or houtos at the beginning of vs 2?
4/ Why did the early Church Fathers not use John 1 in their argument at the early councils surrounding the Trinity etc? Has the English language inserted certain understanding of John 1:1-3 where it did not exist in the original Greek text?
5/ How is it determined that John 1 is a poem or hymn? How much of the chapter does this apply to?
Comments
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There is no capitalization in NT Greek...any that exists is a modern convention. Actually, it is more correct to say that EVERYTHING WAS CAPITALIZED IN NT GREEK, THE "LOWER CASE" DIDN'T COME INTO EXISTENCE UNTIL LATER.
That said, I prefer to use capitalization for He and Him when referring to YHWH/Yeishuu`a for two reasons: it confers respect, and it helps in establishing that YHWH/Yeishuu`a is the antecedent. That said, in the Bible, there are a few places where it isn't entirely clear whether the antecedent is God or not.
The "creative expression" is exactly what Yeishuu`a is...or as the AV of Heb. 1:3 puts it, He is the "express image" of His person. That said, you can make a case that some extrapolation is taking place in the translation process. That is true to some degree, but as far as the verses you are concerned with go, that extrapolation isn't in error.
Your question about Jn. 1:3 is also answered in Heb. 1:2, as well as Jn. 1:10, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Col. 1:16. The Greek reason has to do with the declension endings, I believe. I've looked at all this before, but I don't focus on Greek as much as Hebrew so I can't explain it off the top of my head.
Can't answer your question about the "early Church Fathers"...I don't give anything they say much credence whether I agree or disagree with what they say.
The first part of John 1 is a kind of midrashic take (Hebraic commentary) on Gen. 1:1-5. Whether it is presented in any kind of verse, or was a song of some sort or whatever is pretty immaterial. The literary criticism craze aside, prophetic communication, the primary semantic methodology of Scripture, is sort of like a neutrino--it passes through pretty much any and everything (i.e. narrative, history, psalm, proverb, poetry, prophecy, gospel, apocalyptic, epistle, etc.) without any effect on its trajectory or destination.
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David Griffith said:
1/ John 1:1 How is it decided that logos or word becomes capitalized? Where in the Greek sentence is this indicated? How does the sentence indicate logos refers to a person rather than to "creative expression"?
The capitalization does not come from the Greek but reflects translational choice. Whether you capitalize or not will result in the reader assuming that the referent is divine (since it normal usage) or not divine (since it would not be normal usage not to capitalize if the referent was divine). A choice has to be made.
David Griffith said:2/ In John 1:2 How does the sentence or a translator decide how "houtos" should be translated.
Our software shows houtos is "he" in the Darby, ESV, GW, HCSB, ISV, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, etc
and "the same" in the ASV, AV, DR, KJV,
and "this one" in the LEB, Youngs,These are all common usages of houtos. See a Greek grammar for more details.
David Griffith said:3/ In John 1:3 How does the sentence indicate if houtos/him is referring to God in the middle of vs2 or houtos at the beginning of vs 2?
Whenever a series of pronouns are used, there can be ambiguities as to which refers to what. Usually proximity and sense help determine the most likely option.
David Griffith said:4/ Why did the early Church Fathers not use John 1 in their argument at the early councils surrounding the Trinity etc? Has the English language inserted certain understanding of John 1:1-3 where it did not exist in the original Greek text?
I don't know.
David Griffith said:5/ How is it determined that John 1 is a poem or hymn? How much of the chapter does this apply to?
There have been various movements in scholarships that have left lasting marks. Some of these consisted in speculating about sources and materials within greater works such as a gospel or epistle. Most of the time, there is no proof and as far as I know, no alleged hymn has ever been found in another source that pre-existed the NT work in which it is claimed to be (although there are extra-biblical allusion in the NT). But basically, when a passage appears to have a certain beauty and structural balance, and if it is loaded with theological material that seems to be almost "creedal" in formulation, scholars will claim that it pre-existed, was a hymn, etc and other scholars -- who love this kind of stuff -- will happily welcome the idea. Before long, statements like "it is now largely recognized that passage X is a hymn" will be found in commentaries as if it had now become an established fact.
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Francis said:
There have been various movements in scholarships that have left lasting marks. Some of these consisted in speculating about sources and materials within greater works such as a gospel or epistle. Most of the time, there is no proof and as far as I know, no alleged hymn has ever been found in another source that pre-existed the NT work in which it is claimed to be (although there are extra-biblical allusion in the NT). But basically, when a passage appears to have a certain beauty and structural balance, and if it is loaded with theological material that seems to be almost "creedal" in formulation, scholars will claim that it pre-existed, was a hymn, etc and other scholars -- who love this kind of stuff -- will happily welcome the idea. Before long, statements like "it is now largely recognized that passage X is a hymn" will be found in commentaries as if it had now become an established fact.
Yeah...this kind of stuff (eisegesis in wrapping paper) makes my skin crawl. Just state the facts and leave them be.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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We're generally discouraged from discussing theology on the Logos forums, and encouraged to restrict our discussions to the Logos software, and how we might use it to try and answer theological/biblical questions. So, in that spirit, I suggest running a Passage Guide on John 1:1, and a Topic Guide on Logos. You'll get plenty of things to read, and I doubt that the combined wisdom of we forumites will beat the combined wisdom of your Logos resources.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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There is no such thing as translation without interpretation. Try German,Spanish, French, Greek, Hebrew,etc. to English. You do the best you can, but it is not possible to translate out of or into a vacuum free of interpretation! They are not one to one! This does not mean you can't capture the meaning.
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Mark Barnes said:
I doubt that the combined wisdom of we forumites will beat the combined wisdom of your Logos resources.
There is much knowledge in Logos resources. Wisdom is a rarer commodity. As for finding it in the academia...
Well, anyway, yes, the Passage Guide and other resources can help find some answers.
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David Griffith said:
How is it decided that logos or word becomes capitalized?
Never in the original manuscripts. Refer to style manuals of the era and language of a translation to learn the applicable rules e.g. are all nouns, only proper nouns, only initial words of sentences ... capitalized. I.E. Logos doesn't have the resources to answer this.
David Griffith said:How does the sentence indicate logos refers to a person rather than to "creative expression"?
Study Greek semantics and history of Christian scriptural interpretation; same answer applies to 2, 3; You can also do a word study taking advantage of the Logos Perseus link to view non-Biblical usage.
David Griffith said:Why did the early Church Fathers not use John 1 in their argument at the early councils surrounding the Trinity etc?
For "why?" you'll have to wait until you can talk to the Church Fathers in person. There is no reason to believe that what was written and preserved represent ALL the arguments used by the Fathers. Which ones get used most and documented most depends upon the ebb and flow of a debate. In other words, the question is ill-formed in the sense that any answer is speculation.
David Griffith said:5/ How is it determined that John 1 is a poem or hymn? How much of the chapter does this apply to?
Your choices are not mutually exclusive. Rather all hymns are poems. A study of Greek and Hebrew poetics will provide your answer.
In each case (semantics, poetics, Church Fathers, history of interpretation), Logos provides some resources to help you in your studies. In all cases, depending upon your background, you will also need materials not available in Logos.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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