Why do you prefer Logos 4 over 3?

Did you see this thread? http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6771.aspx

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54164#Comment_54164

Todd - Nope, I didn't see that; many thanks for pointing it out.

Interesting other comments on the install, etc. I have to admit I do find v4.0 sluggish as compared to 3.0 (my system - a quad core, 64-bit, WIN Vista with 4GB of RAM). My install, however, went fine.

As one of those who had some "interesting comments" I want to take this opportunity to say how much I like the program itself (my problem has alway been how the product was launched). I saw the potental frm the very start, but I have to admit that the first serveral weeks the pay off does not come because I was learning a new way of doing things. I can't say those first few weeks were less productive, but the were certainly not more productive than with L3. However, in time I have noticed that I get more done in less time and enjoy it more in the process.

I thought a while about what exactly has made a difference and I think the single biggest factor is layouts. In L4 I seem to be able to create workspaces that help me accomplish my task better. Yes I used workspaces in L3, but they always seems a little like a square peg in a round hole. With some work I have created some layouts that just seem to fit--consequently I work better and enjoy it more.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54225#Comment_54225

Keith - thanks for your comments. I do like the layouts, although as of yet, I haven't found they make a big impact on how I use the product, but perhaps over time I'll find the benefits you've described.

Am I wrong in saying that some functionality seems missing? Things like Bible speed search, bibliography generation, and other such things? Is there a list of functionality that's been permanently removed?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55028#Comment_55028

Keith - thanks for your comments. I do like the layouts, although as of yet, I haven't found they make a big impact on how I use the product, but perhaps over time I'll find the benefits you've described.

Am I wrong in saying that some functionality seems missing? Things like Bible speed search, bibliography generation, and other such things? Is there a list of functionality that's been permanently removed?

Did you read the missing features list? (there's a link below in my signature). Bibliography is a planned feature (for 2nd quarter 2010), as is Personal Book Builder support.

Bible speed search is definitely not there as it was in v3. There's been some debate on the forum about whether the regular bible search is a good enough replacement.

The fastest way to do a bible search right now is: Hit Alt+D to move the cursor to the command box, enter your search words, then hit Ctrl+Enter to do a bible search for those words in your Top Bibles. Depending on your computer this could be fast or slow.

Regarding "selecting a word in the interlinear and being able to copy the English - not Greek - spelling of the word out" -- that's the first time I've heard someone comment on that. How did you do that in v3? Did you have to reorder the lines so the english was on top? I do know that a Ctrl+C copy will copy all the lines of the interlinear in v4, but the right-click menu copy won't.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55028#Comment_55028

Keith - thanks for your comments. I do like the layouts, although as of yet, I haven't found they make a big impact on how I use the product, but perhaps over time I'll find the benefits you've described.

Am I wrong in saying that some functionality seems missing? Things like Bible speed search, bibliography generation, and other such things? Is there a list of functionality that's been permanently removed?

There are some things that are missing.

http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures

Logos (Bob) has stated that Remote Library and Graphical query will not have equivalent or better replacements in L4.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55028#Comment_55028

Keith - thanks for your comments. I do like the layouts, although as of yet, I haven't found they make a big impact on how I use the product, but perhaps over time I'll find the benefits you've described

Be sure to watch some of the user created videos of layouts. They give so great ideas.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55028#Comment_55028

I do like the layouts, although as of yet, I haven't found they make a big impact on how I use the product, but perhaps over time I'll find the benefits you've described.

Check out some of John Fidel's excellent videos on how to make the most of layouts in Logos:
My Favorite Layout
Reading Layout
Search Layout
Layout for Studying OT in NT

AndyTheGreek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55151#Comment_55151

I much prefer the new layouts and screen usage of Logos4. Interestingly, when using my Samsung NC10 netbook, I always use Logos4 despite it being a bit sluggish. Why? Because I find the resources much easier to read, on the small screen, using Logos4. Over the weekend, as an experiment, I used the netbook to do a major amount of research and, other than needing to be a bit more patient, I found Logos4 on it to be very acceptable.

If I had needed to access any of my PBBs I would, of course, have fired up Logos3 on it as well. Once they (and the other missing features) are supported by Logos4 I anticipate that my Logos3 usage will diminish dramatically...

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55178#Comment_55178

All - thanks for the replies and suggestions!

Regarding how to copy the English spelling of a Greek word in v3: I click on the ESV interlinear, click on a word in the text, right mouse, click on selected text, click on the Greek word spelled in English, and then select copy.I used this *all* the time in writing my dissertation.

I wonder how Logos determines what functionality to remove? Polls, surveys, something else? I know that removing functionality is a tricky process and I always struggled with it at a couple of the companies I worked at.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55236#Comment_55236

I wonder how Logos determines what functionality to remove? Polls, surveys, something else? I know that removing functionality is a tricky process and I always struggled with it at a couple of the companies I worked at.

[edit]Percentage of users utilizing the feature. Features used by over 10% of the people were included in the initial release. Under 10% in future releases.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55236#Comment_55236

Regarding how to copy the English spelling of a Greek word in v3: I click on the ESV interlinear, click on a word in the text, right mouse, click on selected text, click on the Greek word spelled in English, and then select copy.I used this *all* the time in writing my dissertation.

I never realized you couldn't copy the transliteration. I haven't found a translation where this is possible after looking a bit, either.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55244#Comment_55244

Percentage of users utilizing the feature. Features used by over 10% of the people were included in the initial release. Under 10% in future releases.

You mean all the whining and complaining we are seeing is from only 10% of the user base? Cool!

[;)]

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55255#Comment_55255

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

The figure (and I can't remember receiving such a precise figure as Philip quotes) was based on those who allowed reporting of their usage. It ought come as no surprise that many of the so called power users turned off such reporting - they are the loud ones and their use of such tools was not taken into account.

We have been given no figure regarding how many users allowed reporting on their Libronix installs. Thus we have no idea what percentage used various tools.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55255#Comment_55255

Percentage of users utilizing the feature. Features used by over 10% of the people were included in the initial release. Under 10% in future releases.

You mean all the whining and complaining we are seeing is from only 10% of the user base? Cool!

Those who use the forums are only a fraction of the user base. I think I heard somewhere that Logos has 700,000 users. could be wrong there, but at any rate we just passed 10,000 people registered for the forums. I have a friend who I gave a set of eBible resources to. He didn't even know about passage guides and exegetical guides in L3! I know of pastors who own logos and never use it. It truly does break my heart :-)

Yes, we are the vocal minority :-)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55257#Comment_55257

(and I can't remember receiving such a precise figure as Philip quotes)

The discussion was way back in the beginning of the Beta.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55257#Comment_55257

It ought come as no surprise that many of the so called power users turned off such reporting - they are the loud ones and their use of such tools was not taken into account.

We have been given no figure regarding how many users allowed reporting on their Libronix installs. Thus we have no idea what percentage used various tools.

The first thing I always did was turn the reporting off when I installed L3 and those who know how to do this tend to be power users. So the statistics Logos got from L3 were misleading in some ways. I would also guess that those same people who knew how to turn off reporting were also the type of customers who purchase more books.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55259#Comment_55259

Damian,
I too recall hearing that number or something pretty close to it during early beta. It was something akin to "that feature was used by less than 10% of users..."

Yet as you note it's a flawed number because many of us turned off reporting. I'm not quite a security freak, though I am serious about it. I tend to turn off all kinds of feedback to companies because I see it as a security hole. That said I've actually elected to leave reporting at all for L4.

Philip: That number of users is about correct, I rememebered it closer to 750,000 but I imagine we're close enough to the mark. With only 10,482 users in the forums (and most of them relatively silent) that's a pretty small percentage.

Now then back on topic: why do I prefer L4 over L3.... Good question.

I hate to admit it because I usually don't like superficial things like eyecandy, but eye candy does play a role. Visually L4 is much more appealing and L3 now looks positively ancient in my eyes.
It's not the same for everyone, but brute force searching the library (via indexing) is a big seller for me. I'm not all that refined in the ways that I search the library unless I'm culling through lots of hits I don't limit my searches much. L4 plays to my weakness in searching and I like it.
I love the customizable PG and EG and BWS guides which I have turned to my own advantage in L4.
Layouts are a massive improvement over workspaces (which I seldom actually used.)

No doubt I could list more, but these are a few reasons why L4 is IMNSHO a better program. And once the missing features return, all bets are off.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55281#Comment_55281

The first thing I always did was turn the reporting off when I installed L3 and those who know how to do this tend to be power users

So whose fault would it be if the favorite features of those who turned off reporting were not implemented? Logos used those statistics to determine which features were important. I don't remember whether I turned it off or not. Now we know how important Logos considered reporting to be.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55307#Comment_55307

So whose fault would it be if the favorite features of those who turned off reporting were not implemented? Logos used those statistics to determine which features were important. I don't remember whether I turned it off or not. Now we know how important Logos considered reporting to be

This is the reason I have left reporting on in L4. First time I have purposely done this! [:)] I am sure I have inadvertently done this however. [:^)]

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55257#Comment_55257

It ought come as no surprise that many of the so called power users turned off such reporting - they are the loud ones and their use of such tools was not taken into account.

And this is your punishment for not sharing your usage stats with Logos.... bad boy.. bad bad boy![&]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55413#Comment_55413

And this is your punishment for not sharing your usage stats with Logos.... bad boy.. bad bad boy!

Personally I believe Logos should have a way of turning off Usage Stats while still providing a way for me to let them know the features I use.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55414#Comment_55414

Philip, What exactly do you think usage stats are? They are a record of the features you use.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55433#Comment_55433

Philip, What exactly do you think usage stats are? They are a record of the features you use.

it was meant to be funny. Definitely needed a smiley.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55451#Comment_55451

I must need another cup of coffee then.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55451#Comment_55451

it was meant to be funny. Definitely needed a smiley.

Definitely.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55453#Comment_55453

Ok that was creepy enough to become my new desktop background for awhile.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55458#Comment_55458

Ok that was creepy enough to become my new desktop background for awhile.

I expected the forum to downsize it like it does uploaded images. Imagine my surprise.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55461#Comment_55461

I expected the forum to downsize it like it does uploaded images. Imagine my surprise.

When it popped up and filled the screen you should imagine my surprise. It involves coffee and a rolling chair.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55464#Comment_55464

Todd, that was so funny to see that huge smiley! Still laughing... LOL

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55486#Comment_55486

I love to learn more about my relationship with God, Logos 4 and 3 help me to see more clearly and quickly what the scriptures are talking about and I can not express my joy in finding them, but I also love to teach other believers about the advantages of using software to more quickly find out what the scriptures have to say on any subject.

This is why I prefer Logos 4 over Libronix 3! I have show 100's and 100's of believers how to use free bible study programs like e-sword and the Word, but as you most likely know both of them have limited resources when it comes to books with copyrights.

And when you start looking into programs that contain books with copyrights, Libronix 3 was the best, but it had two main draw backs in my mind.

The first might sound silly, but to most of the people that I had introduced to study software, Libronix 3 looked so different that they didn't want to even try it. It did not bother me how it looked, but it sure looked strange compared to other bible study programs. Logos 4 has changed that, it "looks" more like other bible study programs and I have already seen more positive reactions from believers when they see the new program.

The second problem with getting others to use libronix 3 was, the learning curve. To really get the most out of the system took a while, to shorten my learning curve I bought Logos Camp I and Camp II plus every manual I could find, plus all the resources on the Logos site. I spent 100's of dollars to learn how to use the system. It was money well spent, but most people do not want to spend either that much time or money on how to use a program.

With Logos 4, the learning curve is much better, and although it does things differently from Libronix 3, it gets the job done with out spending as much time and money learning how to use the system. this is really a big plus for me, since I enjoy getting people into the scriptures!

Of course there is still a big cost factor in getting all the resources, but buying at the right time really helps in that area and for most folks a up grade in libraries right now is a great way to improve their libraries, without spending as much as normal.

On the negative side, Logos blew the launch by not informing us concerning things that were going to be missing, some early lists of what was in each package were wrong and who had any idea how big the downloads were going to be those first few days??? And who had any idea how long the indexing was going to take, and exactly what was going on when.

These things have all come along way, and so has the information on how to use the program.

I must admit that the first month was horrible for me, but now I have great hopes that a good program wiil become a great program, that I will be able to share with other.

Loving Logos 4 and waiting for the rest of it!!!

In Christ,

Jim

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55301#Comment_55301

Damian,
I too recall hearing that number or something pretty close to it during early beta. It was something akin to "that feature was used by less than 10% of users..."

Yes, I remember hearing all of this.

What I don't remember is Bob or anyone saying, " Features used by over 10% of the people were included in the initial release. Under 10% in future releases." It was the precision of that statement which I was questioning.

We actually don't know the reasoning behind most of the decisions made (and that is OK with me). In some cases we have heard that a decision was made to delay deployment because less than 10% (or 5% or 2%) used the particular feature. Do over 10% of users employ syntax searches? Did less than 10% of users ever append a note to a verse?

Yet as you note it's a flawed number because many of us turned off reporting.

The number is the number - but it does not represent percentage of users.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55413#Comment_55413

And this is your punishment for not sharing your usage stats with Logos.... bad boy.. bad bad boy!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55594#Comment_55594

What I don't remember is Bob or anyone saying, " Features used by over 10% of the people were included in the initial release. Under 10% in future releases." It was the precision of that statement which I was questioning.

That was my own paraphrase.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55604#Comment_55604

from the private beta forum: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/2706/20980.aspx#20980

We've been clear about our intention to
offer equivalent (really, improved) versions of the "missing" LDLS 3
features; they just take time to code. But nobody will have anything
taken from them if we release 4 without those features and add them
(for free) in the coming months. Statistics show that almost none of
the features mentioned on these forums as "missing" are used by more
than 10% of our users. (A different 10% for each feature, of course.)
If you're affected, and it's important to you, you can simply defer
upgrading to 4 until the feature is implemented. There isn't much
difference between our releasing now -- for the 90% who don't use the
feature -- and you not upgrading for three months, and us holding the
product for three months and then you buying it the day we release it.
Either way the feature doesn't arrive for three months. The only
difference is psychological.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55599#Comment_55599

And this is your punishment for not sharing your usage stats with Logos.... bad boy.. bad bad boy!

LOL [:D]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55461#Comment_55461

I expected the forum to downsize it like it does uploaded images. Imagine my surprise.

It will if you reduce the Max Width in the Insert Media box. Default is 550, but I just reduced it to 300 for this image. Works for images inserted from URL as well as uploaded from your computer.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55689#Comment_55689

It will if you reduce the Max Width in the Insert Media box. Default is 550, but I just reduced it to 300 for this image. Works for images inserted from URL as well as uploaded from your computer.

I just accepted the default (like I always do), but the image is displaying at full size on my screen (800 px). Not that I care. I like it big.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55698#Comment_55698

All - thanks again for the many thoughtful replies. I played more with some of the layouts last night and watched some of the videos you've recommended and have come up with a good framework I think. The only thing I find is that my scrolling through my main Bible is sluggish if I have too many other tabs linked in sync with it, so I'm experimenting with what I can turn on/off to make things more snappy.

One question: is there a way to have some of the tools like Bible explorer and such open by default in a floating window vs. dock to the side of the core window? I created some toolbar options by dragging the tools onto the bar, but the only way I can get them open in a floating window is by right-mousing on the icon and selecting the floating window option.