Printing does not work, is it me or Logos? Are we locked in and cant get out???
I have spent countless hours pouring stuff into the Logos software. Not to educate a dumb computer, but to use the research in real life. I keep getting the feeling that Logos wants us locked into man-machine time and not actually use what we learn.
The reason I say this is printing.
For example, I have learnt that if one uses Emphasis Markup and for example manually highlight all verses that pertain to baptism. Then if you go to that document and choose "save as passage list" that Logos creates a very useful collection of verses pertaining to baptism. If the list is short, no problem you can print it out. If the list is long, well, you can see it but NO , you CANT print it!
The printing then just goes so far and adds .... and stops!
Try emphasis markup a whole book, eg Isaiah.
What is going on?
Are we captives inside the little Logos world?
Please help. If this is so I'm going to ditch Logos.
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Charles said:
if you go to that document and choose "save as passage list" that Logos creates a very useful collection of verses pertaining to baptism. If the list is short, no problem you can print it out. If the list is long, well, you can see it but NO , you CANT print it!
There is a limit of 100 pages to print, but I was able to export a List of 6550 passages to Word which was predicted to be 129 pages but came out as 212 pages. It should be possible to print that from Word!?
Charles said:Try emphasis markup a whole book, eg Isaiah.
What is going on?
As long as you are still wanting to print the passages you put into a PL then try what I suggested.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I tried exporting to a PDF and was hoping to print out from that. Gave the same errors.
The point is really why are we limited? It is just not right. Its like having to ask the bank to spend your own money thats in your own account. Why are we limited to any number? I think that we should voice our complaints to Logos. I am just not prepared to spend all this time in their software if I am not able to use the fruits of my labour.
Thanks for you tip, I shall try the workaround.
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macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Charles said:
Its like having to ask the bank to spend your own money thats in your own account.
In this case, it's like asking the bank to pay out your entire $50,000 balance in nickels: it "should" be allowed, but it may not be practical. [:)]
Charles said:Why are we limited to any number?
There are memory and resource constraints associated with preparing the print preview: a printout of hundreds of pages would run out of memory and crash the system. We chose 100 pages as a reasonably high limit that would allow most common uses of the Print feature; I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've had complaints about this limit for user-created documents.
You raise a valid point, though, and there may be ways that we can modify the software to fix this. Perhaps we can show a truncated preview but print the whole document (for user-created documents)? Alternatively, a 64-bit version of Logos may be able to lift this and other limitations.
Thanks for your feedback, and I hope Dave's workaround works for you in the meantime.
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Thanks for the clarification Bradley. [:)]
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Bradley ... that answer comes under the 'duh' category. Previewing and printing's been around since the 80s with considerably smaller buffers. Back in the 'old' days, you told the user about limited preview (often with selective page ranges) but print 'forever'. Logos has certainly come a long way.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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alabama24 said:
Thanks for the clarification Bradley.
Regarding your reasoning, there is definitely a limit in place for licensed works; Logos is not intended to be a tool that facilitates the unlicensed reproduction (to paper or PDF) of copyrighted material. But since the OP was printing his own document, I was speaking to the limitation as it related to that.
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Thanks for your comments Bradly, but I don't buy them.
The copyright? We had to PAY for the use of the books! We are not busy running printing presses trying to publish our own copies of the NIV! Just think about it. That would be stupid!! In the extreme!!! The costs of copying material in THIS way via LOGOS are so large that even IF one wanted to do this one would run at a loss.
LOGOS is NOT the world. In cyberspace, one can find many many ways of gathering full versions of the bible for FREE and then downloading them and manipulating it in ones own wordprocessor that does NOT artificially curb ones ability to print.
And not enough memory!! I have 32GIGs of RAM in my mac. You cannot confuse me with science Bradly. I write software for a living, and RAM has NOTHING to do with it.
Fact is : this is purely a decision taken by LOGOS and faithfully implement by your programmers to CURB our ability to print out the work that (a) we paid for via paying for LOGOS the software and (b) we paid for the resources and (c) it was our time and effort collating and reassembling and manipulating the resources that we paid for with our time.
And yet LOGOS still thinks that we are going to start our own printing presses.
And LOGOS still thinks that we have no right to our work!!
Bradley if we were that type of people you would NOT find us spending time in LOGOS.
I for one am at the tail end of years of work WITHIN LOGOS and now I NEED to print out some of it.
Think carefully: how many people out there do you think you have annoyed by your artificial printing restraints? Answer: almost all of them.
Why do they not complain: Answer they are Christians and do not LIKE complaining. I too am a christian but I can see thru this mess and I have come to the point where i cant take it anymore.
How many users do you think WOULD actually go out and ABUSE full printing rights? ANSWER almost none. Why? Because they are christians Bradley.
So the current policy angers almost all your clients and is successful at curbing the efforts of maybe 1 or 2 people who might be inclined to abuse the software.
Not clever.
I for one demand change.
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LOGOS is amazing software. I just love its ability to form columns of text, the first columm being version A (eg NIV) the second column being version B (eg KJ). One can then study a passage and get a much clearer idea of the original authors intentions.
In real life, I wanted to study the book of Esra, the ENTIRE book. (yes I actually study the entire bible, not 15 verses at a time) People that read a verse a day are so far of the mark its just sad.
So i tried to print a copy of this book, with 4 of my favourites versions side by side.
Why 4? Because that helps me the most!
I then planned to go and sit on the beach in the sun out of the office and let YHWH speak to me thru His word.
Along comes LOGOS and says, um, NO! You don't have enough RAM!! You don;t have a RIGHT to print so much! Printing so much indicates that you have BAD INTENTIONS!.
Guys I'm tired of waiting for common sense to prevail.
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To try and help: Consider this:
Instead of curbing printing, ENHANCE IT AND MAKE IT ONE OF THE SHINING FEATURES OF LOGOS!!
why??
Users of Logos feel a strong attachment to the revelation gained thru studying the Word this way. We, and I think I know human nature enough to say we, are in a way very proud of the results of our research. In another way, the work has a special place in our hearts! We are a select group of users: NOT here for business of plundering, BUT here to learn the word of our maker AND to spread it. Thru CURBING PRINTING ARTIFICIALLY you are curbing our ability to spread the results of our labours. So this software is then LIMITED, it only helps learning.
By making a big thing of the printing and putting serious effort into it, you will totally win the hearts and minds of your current client base. They will never leave, why should they?
Currently, people like me ARE going to leave with very bitter sweet memories of LOGOS, a concealed deception that gave us hope and then dashed the hopes at the very end.
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Charles, Logos is a Northwest company ... we in the northwest don't waste our trees on paper - we're the home of Microsoft, Amazon and Logos[;)] Seriously, I suspect most Windows users don't mind exporting to Word for formatting printing ... and that most users have higher priorities in Logos than extensive printing capabilities. If Logos were to enhance their ability to produce handouts, I suspect more would care about printing. I may be wrong. But if you feel strongly about the printing capability, add it as a suggestion in uservoice and see if you garner the support to move it near the top. Logos does listen.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi Ms Smith. Thankyou for the comments. I too agree we should not waste paper.
But there is a very very strong case for paper at times. It is one of the surest backups available. If our "electronic" versions were to vanish, and vanish they do, what then?
There are just times when paper IS better.
Regarding higher priorites, what is higher?
We were not commanded to ONLY go and learn all there is to learn about the Word. And then hide that truth under a bushel.
But to SPREAD it.
The fact that Logos has been lying to us for so many years about the printing issue makes me acutely aware that they are here for business reasons, and perhaps some other reasons only. Believers don't lie. I seriously question their long term motives in this regard.
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Charles said:
By making a big thing of the printing and putting serious effort into it, you will totally win the hearts and minds of your current client base.
I have other priorities for Logos than unrestricted printing of material that I chose to study with their software. If I want to share the (copyrighted) material I can readily get hold of a legit paperback. If I want to spread the "fruits of my labours" I can publish material as a Personal Book**. This is where there should be no restriction on printing; where Logos should trust their users in regard to uncopyrighted material, which also includes any documents we produce as part of our study. I'm glad that Bradley is considering this.
.
** I can print highlights in a PB or Logos book but can't do so via export to Word as it lacks the capability/interface to produce highlights.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Hello Dave,
I have not looked but I can almost guarantee that you will be allowed to print out a small inconsequential book. But anything with real extensive content, they will NOT let you do that either. This is why I have not even looked at that part of the software.
And they are lying about the memory. The things that they make Logos do at present is absolutely amazing and would require MUCH more memory than simple printing.
Everybody perfected printing with small memory YEARS ago. Except Logos.
They simply have decided that we may not.
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Bradley, you deleted your answer. But in answer to your missing answer, I have the highest regard for you (and quite a number of Logos folks who risk answering nutty ladies on the forum). My point, and it's illustrated by further answers below yours, is that easy answers sometimes leave a bad taste (in the Japanese sense).
And Charles ... as usual, you are corrrect. Printing, if refused by the software, needs an explanation to the user (whether agreeable or not). But Logos has never been one to communicate the obvious.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hello Denise
I am guessing but it appears that you have a lot of background with Logos.
Please advise me : do you think we will eventually be able to print out our work, or do you think Logos will (its been years now) continue to restrict our printing?
Why is the restriction there in the first place?
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As a general comment here:
I have an ESV bible (paper version) that is the product of hrs and hrs of manual research. Many of us know EXACTLY what i mean here. It is studiously marked and coloured and notated etc etc. It is one of my most prised possessions, because of the effort that i put into it, and not because it has a calfskin leather cover. It is the work that has gone into it.
Then I found a version that I preferred over the ESV. Again, remember I am talking paper hard bibles here.
Not being lazy i sat down to transfer all of my highlighting etc to the new bible, using pens and ink and rulers and ...
Then I discovered Logos. I even found myself praying to our maker to inspire them to create a good highlighting system.
And wow, did they!! It is more than I ever hoped for!
You see, my plan was to rather transfer my highlighting to Logos.
Then in future if I move on to yet another version of the word, I would simply BUY the electronic version, in seconds, transfer all my highlighting, um um um
print it out.
For me, not for mass production or resale.
for me.
But ... well I'm going back to manual it seems
why oh why is the world so messed up?
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Hi Charles
Charles said:Then in future if I move on to yet another version of the word, I would simply BUY the electronic version, in seconds, transfer all my highlighting, um um um
This may add to your frustration but I wanted to ensure you were aware of this.
Highlighting can't be shared between different versions so each highlight would need to be recreated.
The reason why highlights can't be shared is mainly due to different versification schemes in different translations.
Graham
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Charles ... one can only guess; Dave and MJ have much more background info. But Libronix3 was a fairly 'open' platform, allowing significant copying, I assume printing (we don't even have a working printer ... the ink is a pain), and movable license files.
When Logos4 was introduced, the license files disappeared, printing wasn't even offered, and the whole 'world' was tightened up (you sync'd if you wanted 'books').
I suspect Alabama's comment was correct but I also suspect the concepts surrounded multi-platform support ... meaning if in 2007 during planning, you thought about multi-platform, publisher contracts, etc, then a considerable amount of tightening up would be needed. On my other Bible platforms, they also locked up, but some had earlier loose contracts and so some of my books 'disappeared' when I changed platforms.
But overall, Logos is an 'in-your-face' type of company. Don't know where you're located but Sams (a unit of Walmart) is similar. Sams can't psychologically be 'nice'. Walmart's almost the opposite. And if you've met with execs from both, it's apparent why.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hello Graham,
You are correct in that what i think is called "markup" cannot be transferred.
However, highlighting by searching can and does work! Amazingly well, with a bit of tweeking.
eg if if have searched every occurance of the word "life" and made it bold orange, this search routine transfers very well to new versions.
If it does not then the new version has used a different word, which is easy to fix.
But as you say the manual markup does not. I can live with that because Logos creates a very neat document listing these and one can just work thru this manually. For this reason I do as much markup as i can by the searching method.
Thankyou for your comment Graham
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Hi Charles
Charles said:eg if if have searched every occurance of the word "life" and made it bold orange, this search routine transfers very well to new versions.
Just to ensure I understand fully - as you talking about using visual filters?
If so I can see that they would do exactly as you describe and are easily transferable.
Graham
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Yes Graham, i think that is the word I was looking for: visual filters, thanks.
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Denise said:
Bradley, you deleted your answer.
After posting it, I reconsidered because I thought it was a little snarky (and we wouldn't want that on the forums), and it distracted from the original topic of this thread. But here I go, posting another off-topic reply... [;)]
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Hi Bradley, can I hear from you, are things going to change? Will eg I be able to print out a painstakingly high-lit bible for my own use?
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Charles said:
The copyright?
It feels like we're changing topics; your original post was about printing a passage list. If you want to discuss copyright, we can do that, but it seems tangential to solving your original problem.
Charles said:And not enough memory!! I have 32GIGs of RAM in my mac. You cannot confuse me with science Bradly. I write software for a living, and RAM has NOTHING to do with it.
What is the virtual address space limit for a 32-bit process on Mac OS X?
Charles said:And LOGOS still thinks that we have no right to our work!!
Not at all. In my last reply, I discussed the reasons for this limitation and how we might address it in the future. I apologise for the inconvenience you're currently experiencing, and hope that Dave's workaround lets you access your work until Logos can print it out in its entirety.
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Charles said:
Hi Bradley, can I hear from you, are things going to change? Will eg I be able to print out a painstakingly high-lit bible for my own use?
Printing for user-created documents may change in the future (as previously discussed).
A Bible with highlighting presents an interesting conundrum. Yes, you created the highlighting and should be able to reproduce it. However, the underlying Bible text is owned by the respective publisher or Bible Society, and we don't actually have the rights to let you reproduce it in its entirety. We're not allowed to let you print out the whole Bible, and if we did, we might lose our rights to license any works by that publisher. But printing out the highlights alone, without the underlying text, isn't useful.
However, the highlights do sync to Android tablets and iPads, so you could use that to view your highlights if mobility/portability is a core reason that you desire a paper copy.
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Ok Bradley this is where i climb off this discussion.
Your response to the memory question is to brag about your knowledge of virtual address spaces? Truth is memory has NOTHING to do with it. As you full well know.
Using word on a mac? Really?
I have nothing to gain by continuing with this ridiculous debate so I am saying good bye.
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Charles said:
Your response to the memory question is to brag about your knowledge of virtual address spaces?
I'm sorry that my question came across as "bragging"; I was trying to establish a baseline for a technical discussion (given that you are a software developer).
BTW, I looked into the original issue further. I just created a passage list with 3,810 verses and was able to "print" (to XPS) all 262 pages. I don't wish to use that much paper, but I'm fairly certain it could also be physically printed out if desired.
I'm not sure if this is a difference between Windows and Mac, or a change in 5.2a, or a difference in the way we're printing, or something else. If you return to this discussion, perhaps we could get to the bottom of it.
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Charles said:
I have nothing to gain by continuing with this ridiculous debate so I am saying good bye.
Charles, a major point that you've not responded to directly is that there are two ways to print - print (quick, short, preformatted) and export. Have you tried export? I don't run a Mac (their failure to meet their initial promise on compilers sent me the PC direction) so I can't test it for you. But on a PC your concerns are much ado about nothing as you can print the passage list and can use the export to meet your other needs. I'd like you to leave the thread feeling you had a solution ... or had reported a genuine bug.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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OK Bradley I apologise, I might have totally misread you.
So here is what I tried. I need to study the book of Ezra for example. I'm using a version called "The Scriptures". So i created a markup in highlighting and called it testprintmarkup and then marked entire Ezra with a basic underline. Then i went to the document by the same name. Sure enough there was entire Ezra noted there. Then i went into the options and choose "Save as passage list" . Looking at the text i see Ezra ch1 v1 to Ezra Chap 5 v6 and then ....
At this point I have not even started to print!
What i really needed was to print it out (the entire Ezra) with 4 versions in 4 columns, but even one "column" being just the one bible version gave me only the first 5 and a bit chapters.
This is an artificial restraint built into the software as I see it.
And it beheads what should be the world's greatest bible study tool.
And exporting? Why I cant even see it on the screen!
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Charles said:
What i really needed was to print it out (the entire Ezra) with 4 versions in 4 columns
You could use Text Comparison for this. Open Text Comparison, drag it to the main window (to make it bigger), type in "Ezra" as the reference and enter the four versions you wish to print. On my system, this comes out to 42 pages, so there shouldn't be any problem printing it.
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Charles said:
So i created a markup in highlighting and called it testprintmarkup and then marked entire Ezra with a basic underline. Then i went to the document by the same name. Sure enough there was entire Ezra noted there. Then i went into the options and choose "Save as passage list"
Unless you need the markup in your Bible, you may find it quicker to create a new Passage List document (on the Documents menu), then click the "Add" button on the toolbar and type your reference (e.g., Ezra 1-10) in.
Charles said:Looking at the text i see Ezra ch1 v1 to Ezra Chap 5 v6 and then ....
Passage Lists were designed for shorter ranges than entire books, so you will run into some limitations here, unfortunately. One quick workaround would be to add a chapter at a time. Click the "Add" button and enter the following in the "Reference" textbox: "Ezra 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10". You'll get ten passages, one for each chapter.
But as I previously posted, Text Comparison may help you print out four different versions at once more easily.
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Thankyou for the pointers Bradley, I am trying them out. I live in South Africa and its currently 2.34 am here. You must be working overtime, its what 8.34 pm there? I appreciate the after hours effort, and I will let you know how things go. We South Africans don't sleep as you can see!
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Charles said:
You must be working overtime, its what 8.34 pm there?
The timezone in Bellingham is Pacific Standard Time, so it's only 4:42pm, regular work hours. [:)]
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Your work arounds work Bradley! Thankyou.
I can live with this but, I still feel, that putting effort into the printing side of Logos would go down extremely well.
The software (mac anyway) has become really rich and almost beyond what I might dream for, apart from the printing which is still bug ridden and very basic. Printing (to paper and to pdfs) if polished, would make this a perfect piece of software, in my humble opinion, ( if perfection can exist).
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