Features only purchase and/or new package set for egalitarian/ecumenical Protestants

I would love to be able to purchase the Logos features on their own, such as the word puzzle or the passage guide. I know you're supposed to buy a package to get access to them, but honestly, for me buying a package would just waste my money.

As I'm not fluent in Spanish, my choices are between the standard Starter package or Verbum Foundations to get all of the features. In the Starter the majority of resources in it would be useless to me, as I'm a pastor in the ELCA and have no historical connection to the apparently largely Baptist background represented in that package (not to mention some of the counseling resources and such would be precisely contrary to my beliefs, and I think quite a bit of it would deny the fact of my call to ministry).

And while, with a kind of hilarious irony I have to say, due to my Lutheran background, the Verbum collection would actually contain more things I could use (as there are plenty of Catholics in my area and those documents would give me a background in their methods, not to mention Martin Luther "borrowed" quite a bit from the Catholic church on his way out the door) having to buy a collection that would still contain quite a bit that isn't relevant to my ministry just bothers me. I'm from a background of practical, thrifty Germans who would hate to spend a penny on something not useful.

So, I wish I could just buy the features, or that Logos would come up with a package set more useful to the mainline/ecumenical Protestants. (ELCA, PCUSA, UMC, Reformed (though I notice you have a bundle for them), Episcopal, etc.) It astounds me that this company, which claims to be for-profit, is ignoring such a large customer base. A stunning majority of the resources you offer are frankly insulting to female clergy and the male clergy (and male & female laity) who support them.

If you would like me to come up with a specific set of suggestions I would be happy to do so once Lent is over. What with midweek services, Confirmation, and regular Sunday services that I preside at (just like thousands of female clergy do each week the world over, and thanks be to God for their ministry to a world in need) I'm a little busy at the moment.

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Comments

Steve Maling

Preach it, Sister!

Steve (retired PCUSA)

Ken McGuire

This is still a glaring need and has come up before. I will only reference what I wrote another time it came up.... http://community.logos.com/forums/p/65469/457665.aspx#457665

or more recently http://community.logos.com/forums/p/81902/573065.aspx#573065

SDG

Ken McGuire

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/575208#Comment_575208

I have long wished Logos would offer

The Inclusive Bible: The First Egalitarian Translation by Priests for Equality

although I know it would be controversial and may have trouble getting enough support to make it through pre pub.

-Dan

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/575215#Comment_575215

You're best bet may be the minimal crossgrade to pick up the new features and datasets for L5.

https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=minimal+crossgrade

Adam Rao

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/575769#Comment_575769

Katie,

I hear you and couldn't agree more. For what it's worth, I purchased the Logos 4 Minimal Crossgrade and Logos 5 Minimal Crossgrade and then added the resources I wanted. Haven't regretted that decision one bit.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/575892#Comment_575892

I wish Logos would downsize their small/middle base-package, namely Bronze. It contains way too many Reverse Interlinear - how about including none of those in Bronze and instead offer a separate reverse interlinears bundle? I don't have much complaints about Starter even though it contains too much and the wrong product to be something to recommend and I think it's very difficult or impossible to make a good Starter base-package, but I think that Bronze should definitely not contain everything in Starter! There's a lot that could be said about Bronze and the resources in it are of little use or value. The base-packages sell fairly well because most people don't understand what kind of value random books have. The only really positive thing about Bronze is that it contains just the right amount of datasets.

One thing that needs to be said about base-packages is that the Topical Indexes seem to be connected to them, although I wish there would be an adapted Topical Index which references several kinds of purchases at the same time: both the Protestant and the Catholic base-packages and individual resources/collections, and that every product-page would tell whether the resource is "listed" in a Topical Index.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576548#Comment_576548

It contains way too many Reverse Interlinear - how about including none of those in Bronze and instead offer a separate reverse interlinears bundle?

A number of features are dependent upon an RI - I never use the RI directly, but am often annoyed when one does not exist for the text I am using.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576561#Comment_576561

I'm same as MJ. I rarely see/use the reverse interlinears. But I'm constantly using the underlying databases that match up the various databases.

I guess Logos 'finally' (no criticism intended) fixed the L4 vs L5 crossgrades, where the L4 had to be purchased instead of the L5 to get the RI databases.

But returning to Katie's original point, that's a major reason I stuck with the OL package; the Logos Koolaid always tastes funny. Maybe after Logos finishes the Mongolian/Far-Eastern package plus the always-asked-for Reformed Coptic package, they might take a look at modern Christianity (at least after the early 1900s maybe).

Rosie Perera

I wish I could just buy the features, or that Logos would come up with a package set more useful to the mainline/ecumenical Protestants. (ELCA, PCUSA, UMC, Reformed (though I notice you have a bundle for them), Episcopal, etc.)

I think you'll find that the "Reformed" bundles Logos offers are not for mainline/egalitarian/ecumenical-minded Reformed folks, but the more conservative types.

A stunning majority of the resources you offer are frankly insulting to female clergy and the male clergy (and male & female laity) who support them.

I wouldn't say it's a majority, since there are all the reference books, commentaries and ancient texts which aren't particularly un-egalitarian. But yes, a whole lot of resources are insulting or at least completely uninteresting to the many female pastors, theologians, biblical scholars, church historians, and those who learn from them and worship with them. I've had to hide quite a number of such books that came with my Portfolio base package, e.g. Biblical Womanhood in the Home. Ugh.

Some publishers that Logos should try to establish (or strengthen) relationships with if they want to broaden their customer base to include more of the liberal/mainline/egalitarian denominations:

The Pilgrim Press (United Church of Christ) - America's oldest surviving publishing house (est. 1640)
Cokesbury (United Methodist)
Church Publishing/Morehouse/Seabury (Episcopal)
Faith Alive (Reformed Church in America (RCA), Christian Reformed Church (CRC))
Westminster/John Knox Press (PCUSA) - Logos does have a few books by them, but they need a TON more
Herald Press (Mennonite Church USA & Mennonite Church Canada) - again Logos does carry a few of their books, but only a small percentage
Nazarene Publishing House
Christian Board of Publication/Chalice Press (Disciples of Christ)

I think that, unless and until Logos sees the need/opportunity and hires product mangers to fill out their catalog with works of interest to such potential customers, they will fall through the cracks.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576577#Comment_576577

I wouldn't say it's a majority, since there are all the reference books, commentaries and ancient texts which aren't particularly un-egalitarian. But yes, a whole lot of resources are insulting or at least completely uninteresting to the many female pastors, theologians, biblical scholars, church historians, and those who learn from them and worship with them. I've had to hide quite a number of such books that came with my Portfolio base package, e.g. Biblical Womanhood in the Home. Ugh.

Barefoot and pregnant, sweetie pie ! [;)]

Just yanking your chain. I would most likely agree with you though I don't know precisely what your position is.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576563#Comment_576563

I already had RI:s since L4 (Original Languages Library), and newcomers who want full functionality always have the option of buying the Minimal Crossgrades:

A number of features are dependent upon an RI:
It contains way too many Reverse Interlinear - how about including none of those in Bronze and instead offer a separate reverse interlinears bundle?

I'm same as MJ. I rarely see/use the reverse interlinears. But I'm constantly using the underlying databases that match up the various databases.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576578#Comment_576578

I would most likely agree with you though I don't know precisely what your position is.

I'm hard to pin down precisely, but I believe both women and men are gifted by God to be pastors, preachers, priests, teachers, elders, evangelists, theologians, etc., and that gender should not be a reason to deny a person the ability to follow God's calling, and that there are no roles in the church that are unsuitable for women. Sure, there are women who are unsuitable for some roles, but so are there men who are unsuitable.

Pastor Kay

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576622#Comment_576622

Actually the minimal cross grades leave out several features and datasets, so no, not full functionality.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576673#Comment_576673

[quote]

A bare-bones crossgrade to Logos 5. The Minimal Crossgrade includes all the new Logos 5 features and datasets, plus a small collection of resources that equip you to use them.

Not sure whats missing... but as it says (emphasis mine) All the L5 features and data sets are included. What is it you are looking for thats missing? Perhaps it was from an earlier version.

Pastor Kay

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576682#Comment_576682

The Word Puzzle tool, & others that are listed with, say the Gold but not the Bronze, use the compare tool to check.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576683#Comment_576683

Since I have a higher base package, I'm pretty sure I would have to log out and log back in.

No offense, but I'm trying to help you here - FWIW as a owner of Platnium & Platinum reformed I'm not aware of any word game as a part of my package.

Good luck.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576682#Comment_576682

[quote]

A bare-bones crossgrade to Logos 5. The Minimal Crossgrade includes all the new Logos 5 features and datasets, plus a small collection of resources that equip you to use them.

Not sure whats missing... but as it says (emphasis mine) All the L5 features and data sets are included. What is it you are looking for thats missing? Perhaps it was from an earlier version.

The Logos 5 Minimal Crossgrade is missing several datasets. You'd need to buy Gold at a minimum to get them all.

However most of these are available by purchasing the Logos 4 Minimal Crossgrade, which is still available.

I'm not sure where Greek Pronunciation Addin with Erasmian & Modern Data Sets is. It's not listed in the contents of the L4MC. But I know it existed in L4. It used to be a separate Addin you had to purchase, but they've done away with the Addins model, so it is no longer purchasable as a standalone dataset. Looks like the minimal base package you'd need to buy to get it would be Bronze.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576685#Comment_576685

Well, now. It looks like we're still arguing exactly what is in Logos5 and we're almost gold on Logos6 (well behind the scenes of course).

I had thought with the death of Logos4, that the Logos4 crossgrade went to Logos5. But then I remembered the Logos4 crossgrade didn't have the Logos3 features (Libby), thus explaining the confusion on the Logos5 crossgrade.

And just a month away from XPocalypse (per another thread tonight).

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576671#Comment_576671

I would most likely agree with you though I don't know precisely what your position is.

I'm hard to pin down precisely, but I believe both women and men are gifted by God to be pastors, preachers, priests, teachers, elders, evangelists, theologians, etc., and that gender should not be a reason to deny a person the ability to follow God's calling, and that there are no roles in the church that are unsuitable for women. Sure, there are women who are unsuitable for some roles, but so are there men who are unsuitable.

We're agreed on that. I resolve some of Paul's comments as being sociologically determined according to the practices of his day. Just as Paul cautions against having a drunkard as a bishop, so also he cautions women to be silent since it was not approved at the time—the determining factor was not bringing disrepute upon the church. I've seen some good women priests and some bad ones, but I've seen the same with men.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576683#Comment_576683

The Word Puzzle tool, & others that are listed with, say the Gold but not the Bronze, use the compare tool to check.

I got the minimal crossgrade, but I've had the wordsearch feature since L4 (maybe in L3 as well?).

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576698#Comment_576698

I resolve some of Paul's comments as being sociologically determined according to the practices of his day.

Yup.

I've seen some good women priests and some bad ones, but I've seen the same with men.

Ditto.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576701#Comment_576701

Coming from a almost cult-ish and conservative view of this issue, I'm now on the opposite end of it. But when I then started studying slavery and how post-Jesus handled it, that's when I really started to wonder about post-Jesus. This is obviously OT relative to Pastor Kate's requests. But when one realizes the 'master' (normally male, but often female) controls the religion, then the whole theory of individual responsibility (from the layers of Christian theology) falls apart. Especially the 'elect'. Eventually one ends up with the teachings of John the Baptist (be good) and Jesus 'believe'. Anything more has to be rationalized heavily given such a large share of the population in slavery at the time. This becomes obvious, when in the 2nd Century, the 'theologians' had to evil-ize the slaves to fit into the Pauline teachings.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576757#Comment_576757

I have a .txt file on another computer, which is partially edited from my calculations before my purchase of Bronze on Nov. 20. 2012 regarding whether I would save anything by upgrading from L4 Original Languages Library to L5 Bronze. So I did upgrade to Bronze on that day.

I now did a new calculation in this way: I first decided how much I would value each book on an average. I decided $9. That's somewhat high, but experience has shown that with a few exceptions a large part of the books in Logos get expensive.
Then I counted how many books I actually fully use, or am sure I will use. I counted 27½ books. Seven books I counted as ½ - either because they were really cheap if bought individually or if they are not so good that I would have bought the book expecting there to be better alternatives, sometimes for a fair price or included in useful collections.
So I estimate the value of the books of my upgrade to be $247½. What I actually paid was $339.32.
Minimal Crossgrade currently costs $159.95 if added on an L4 base-package.
So the upgrade to Bronze has saved me $68. (My mom financed most of the upgrade cost but I left her thinking it was printed matter and that it contained one very valuable book - which it doesn't - the reason to that was that I was considering Silver which would have added The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, rev. ed., but I eventually got The Encyclopedia of Christianity, vols. 1-5 as a gift (I paid the transfer fee which was $20 at the time) and it's a good replacement for the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church. But since then I've asked her for money for various things including a few books, so I could have skipped upgrading, besides she is not that rich and works a lot.)

A personal benefit of actually having upgraded, was that I was eventually offered the LSJ on May 28. 2013 at a tremendous price together with upgrading another step. But I returned that May 28. 2013 upgrade and kept LSJ.

As I already stated in my previous post, I'm very satisfied with the datasets in Bronze and am never going to take the L5 Minimal Crossgrade.

When L6, L7 come out, I'm very unlikely to upgrade to a base-package, I might take either Minimal Crossgrades or Core Datasets but only if they add something I will really use a lot and can't live without, preferring to save money for other things in life and for the most necessary must-have books that no-one will finance.

I posted a fortnight ago in the Faithlife-group Creating a budget and cancelling orders: "[On] Sunday March 2. 2014 I lowered my 12-year-budget to 2¼% of my income from May 22. 2013 instead of the original 4%."
Explanation: That budget is for books, software and batteries to my laptops and cell-phone. The budget has a starting-date of May 22. 2013!

L.A.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/576622#Comment_576622

newcomers who want full functionality always have the option of buying the Minimal Crossgrades:

the minimal cross grades do not include all syntax search functions (virtually useless) - as I understand you need Bronze to enter "the Club". ...and who knows when the BHS WIVU Syntax Database might be published again (Logos downgrade from SESB3).

Would also be nice upgrading some features only...

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/578889#Comment_578889

newcomers who want full functionality always have the option of buying the Minimal Crossgrades:

the minimal cross grades do not include all syntax search functions (virtually useless) - as I understand you need Bronze to enter "the Club"

LA,

Unix is correct on this. With L5, the MC gives the complete databases and fuctionality - to get all of these through classic base packages, it's Gold and up you' need.

Mick