Question for Logos employee - or a very clever user

MJ. I don't claim to be clever but, I do love a challenge, so, I'll start this ball rolling. The cross reference section is keyed to your top prioritized bible. Therefore, not all bibles are searched just your favorite bible is searched. Now whether or not all bibles will render equivalent information I am not sure, I'll have to test this proposition.

Edit: you know, a better way of answering this question is to note that the books being searched is the Treasury Scripture Knowledge and the New Treasury Scripture Knowledge so all cross references are keyed to them and thus it doesn't matter what bible is your favorite bible. Right?

fgh said:

I don't have the time to reread them now, but didn't we conclude in two threads I linked to in the thread Dave linked to above that there are many Bibles missing that trait. I think Mark posted a list somewhere of Bibles especially important to add it to.

We did indeed, and apparently there is a case open: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/70726.aspx 

So, to answer MJ's question:

All Bibles with the 'contains-cross-reference-footnotes' trait are included in this section. That's only 9 Bibles, namely:

1. English Standard Version
2. International Standard Version, New Testament
3. La Biblia de las Américas
4. New American Bible: Revised Edition
5. Nueva Biblia Latinoamericana de Hoy
6. Reina Valera Revisada (1960)
7. The Holman Christian Standard Bible
8. The New King James Version
9. Today’s New International Version

The Bibles missing this trait are listed below, together with the number of cross-references they contain. Whilst not all need to be added, it would be a benefit adding at least the first eight. It would make the biggest difference to Verbum users, and others who want to see cross-references to the Apocrypha, which are very thin on the ground currently:

1. New International Version (2011) — 103,436
2. The Greek Testament (Text and Notes) — 99,259
3. New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update — 93,671
4. Explanatory Notes upon the Old and New Testament: Translation — 16,635
5. The Uncanonical and Apocryphal Scriptures — 6,558
6. The Contemporary English Version — 6,415
7. The Ecclesiastical or Deutero-Canonical Books of the Old Testament Commonly Called the Apocrypha — 2,237
8. The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible — 2,150
9. The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition — 704
10. Complete Jewish Bible — 691
11. The Beginnings of Gospel Story: A Historico-Critical Inquiry into the Sources and Structure of the Gospel according to Mark (Bible Text) — 689
12. The New English Bible — 618
13. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 8: The Targum Onqelos to Leviticus and The Targum Onqelos to Numbers — 550
14. The New International Version (Anglicised) — 408
15. The Revised English Bible — 275
16. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 9: The Targum Onqelos to Deuteronomy — 273
17. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 6: The Targum Onqelos to Genesis — 240
18. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 15: The Targum of Job and The Targum of Proverbs and The Targum of Qohelet — 214
19. The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament — 203
20. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 2: Targum Neofiti 1: Exodus and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Exodus — 199
21. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 7: The Targum of Onqelos to Exodus — 173
22. International Standard Version — 171
23. New Century Version — 155
24. The Apocalypse of Ezra (2 Esdras 3–14) — 152
25. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 5B: Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Deuteronomy — 141
26. The NET Bible — 136
27. The Wisdom of Solomon — 135
28. Joel: A Translation, in Metrical Parallelisms, according to the Hebrew Method of Punctuation — 128
29. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 18: The Two Targums of Esther — 127
30. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 4: Targum Neofiti 1: Numbers and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Numbers — 123
31. The Epistle to the Hebrews: Bible Text — 111
32. The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament — 110
33. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 12: The Targum of Jeremiah — 104
34. Two Unknown Hebrew Versions of Tobit — 103
35. Nova Vulgata Bibliorum Sacrorum Editio — 101
36. The Original Hebrew of a Portion of Ecclesiasticus: Hebrew Text — 90
37. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 1A: Targum Neofiti 1: Genesis — 72
38. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 19: The Targum of Ruth and The Targum of Chronicles — 59
39. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 1B: Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Genesis — 57
40. The Original Hebrew of a Portion of Ecclesiasticus: Translation — 22
41. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 14: The Targum of the Minor Prophets — 21
42. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 5A: Targum Neofiti 1: Deuteronomy — 20
43. The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition — 13
44. The Old Testament in Greek according to the Septuagint — 13
45. The Wisdom of Ben-Sira (Ecclesiasticus) — 12
46. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 11: The Isaiah Targum — 9
47. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 13: The Targum of Ezekiel — 9
48. The Minor Prophets: Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi — 9
49. The Books of the Prophets Micah, Obadiah, Joel and Jonah with Introduction and Notes — 7
50. The Book of Isaiah according to the Septuagint (Codex Alexandrinus), Volume 1 (Translation from the Greek) — 6
51. Hosea: Translated from the Hebrew with Notes Explanatory and Critical — 6
52. Wisdom and the Jewish Apocryphal Writings — 4
53. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 16: The Targum of Psalms — 2
54. The Earliest Gospel: A Historical Study of the Gospel according to Mark: Greek Text — 2

* I believe the first list is complete, as it comes from Logos' own metadata. The second list is restricted to resources that I own. There may be other Bibles I don't own that also have cross references, or Bibles that have cross references but don't utilise the cross-reference field [such as the TNIV]). If you want to try it for yourself, do a "By Count" search in a Bibles collection, searching the Cross Reference field for <Gen-Rev>. Go and make a coffee whilst you await results ;-).

Mark Barnes said:

That's exactly what's happening in the passage guide. The problem is that for some reason not all appropriate resources are included.

Clarifying...

First, you're saying that the Cross Reference section of the Passage Guide is supposed to provide the functionality I described?

Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

Thanks,

Donnie

Donnie Hale said:

First, you're saying that the Cross Reference section of the Passage Guide is supposed to provide the functionality I described?

Correct.

Donnie Hale said:

Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

The latter. Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.

Mark Barnes said:

show previous quotes

Donnie Hale said:

Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

The latter. Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.

this is absolutely (to coin a term) mifftafying, now I see why MJ. posed the question and Mark's sage answers and citations underscore the desirability of amping up the utility of Passage Guide. I do hope that someone explains the why question posed in the prior appended remark.

Dave Hooton said:

But it is sparsely represented for a PG on Gen 6:1-8  e.g. the references to Sirach are omitted.

If I look at Genesis 6:1-8 in NABRE, I find three cross reference indicators: (a) in verse 2, (b) in verse 4, and (c) in verse 5. None of them refer to Sirach. There is a cross reference (d) to Sirach in verse 9, and when I extend the PG to verse 9, that cross reference is included

NABRE has a cross-reference field, (but NAB does not).

NB.Mick said:

Just to understand better: are you saying that everything is there in the respective bibles and it was just an oversight on Logos' side to not insert the flag in the catalog.db?

That appears to be the case, judging by Bradley's comments above, and elsewhere.

NB.Mick said:

What would happen if someone were to "correct" the catalog.db trait manually in SQLlite (not that I'd recommend someone editing the SQL db on a productively used L5 installation) - would this make the cross-references usable?

I've already tried that. It doesn't work. The flag comes via Logos' metadata service — probably when it comes it updates catalog.db and some other database that we haven't yet discovered.

Mark Barnes said:

All Bibles with the 'contains-cross-reference-footnotes' trait are included in this section. That's only 9 Bibles, namely:

1. English Standard Version
2. International Standard Version, New Testament
3. La Biblia de las Américas
4. New American Bible: Revised Edition
5. Nueva Biblia Latinoamericana de Hoy
6. Reina Valera Revisada (1960)
7. The Holman Christian Standard Bible
8. The New King James Version
9. Today’s New International Version

So hiding Spanish Bibles isn't such a good idea, I take it?

Mark Barnes said:

Whilst not all need to be added, it would be a benefit adding at least the first eight.

A few more, please:

• The CJB
• The Aramaic Bible
• The EOB

All of these have unique perspectives and may come up with unique xrefs that can't be found elsewhere in Logos Bibles. Plus The Aramaic Bible would have been much higher up if you had added all the volumes together.

And also the ones high up on MJ's list, of course.

Dave Hooton said:

Three different threads later (one offshoot in Beta, one Bug offshoot and this thread) and not one response from Logos!

Bradley did reply earlier in this thread. But nothing since then on all the issues (bugs ?) and discrepancies that are being pointed out.

Donnie

Dylan Rondeau said:

We do have an active case for updating the sources for Cross References in PG. I've added a link to this thread to make sure we consider the resources you all have listed here. There's currently no ETA assigned to the case.

This should be fixed in 5.2b Beta 3.  [:)]

Dylan Rondeau said:

The following resources have had the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait added:

Thanks, that's many more than I dared hope for (especially this soon).

However, one Bible I'm not seeing is Bibel 82. I wouldn't trouble you with it if it wasn't for the fact that, as you can see in one of my posts above, it turned out to be an exceptional Bible for [NT & Apocrypha] cross references. So, is there any chance you could add it? It can't be that much work if it's only metadata.

Also, am I correct in not seeing NASB and the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible on that list? They were among Mark's top 8.

Jannie van Niekerk said:

I added the trait.

Thanks, that was fast!

Jannie van Niekerk said:

Please verify the resource shows up in the passage guide as expected after you have done a meta data sync.

Perhaps I'm just too tired, but I can't figure out how to verify that.