Question for Logos employee - or a very clever user

MJ. SmithUser: "MJ. Smith"
MJ. Smith
Updated by Jason Stone (Logos)

In the cross-reference section of the Passage Guide, are all Bibles with cross-reference information fields searched to fill the section?

Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

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    Beloved AmodeoUser: "Beloved Amodeo"
    Beloved Amodeo
    ✭✭✭

    MJ. I don't claim to be clever but, I do love a challenge, so, I'll start this ball rolling. The cross reference section is keyed to your top prioritized bible. Therefore, not all bibles are searched just your favorite bible is searched. Now whether or not all bibles will render equivalent information I am not sure, I'll have to test this proposition.

    Edit: you know, a better way of answering this question is to note that the books being searched is the Treasury Scripture Knowledge and the New Treasury Scripture Knowledge so all cross references are keyed to them and thus it doesn't matter what bible is your favorite bible. Right?

    Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

    International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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    MJ. SmithUser: "MJ. Smith"
    MJ. Smith
    OP

    The top portion of the cross-references include Treasury, New Treasury and personal cross-references.

    The bottom portion comes from (primarily)Bibles which must have the cross-references trait set (as per Mark Barnes). I can only find which Bibles have that trait indirectly. But I can't easily tell if all such Bibles are searched or if only a subset are used.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

    Dave HootonUser: "Dave Hooton"
    Dave Hooton

    I can't easily tell if all such Bibles are searched or if only a subset are used.

    Here is a statement about bible cross-references I can't tell which bibles are searched, or whether the search is restricted to those having the "cross-reference" field. A few example passages show that some cross-refs come from the TSK/NTSK, and that not every cross-ref in my preferred bible (ESV) or my Top Bibles is used.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

    Bradley Grainger (Logos)User: "Bradley Grainger (Logos)"
    Bradley Grainger (Logos)

    The bottom portion comes from (primarily)Bibles which must have the cross-references trait set (as per Mark Barnes). I can only find which Bibles have that trait indirectly. But I can't easily tell if all such Bibles are searched or if only a subset are used.

    All Bibles that have the cross-references trait are searched for this section.

    I don't know whether all Bibles with cross references have this trait; it's possible that some have been inadvertently omitted.

    fghUser: "fgh"
    fgh
    ✭✭✭

    I don't know whether all Bibles with cross references have this trait; it's possible that some have been inadvertently omitted.

    I don't have the time to reread them now, but didn't we conclude in two threads I linked to in the thread Dave linked to above that there are many Bibles missing that trait. I think Mark posted a list somewhere of Bibles especially important to add it to.

    Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2

    Mark BarnesUser: "Mark Barnes"
    Mark Barnes
    ✭✭✭

    I don't have the time to reread them now, but didn't we conclude in two threads I linked to in the thread Dave linked to above that there are many Bibles missing that trait. I think Mark posted a list somewhere of Bibles especially important to add it to.

    We did indeed, and apparently there is a case open: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/70726.aspx 

    So, to answer MJ's question:

    All Bibles with the 'contains-cross-reference-footnotes' trait are included in this section. That's only 9 Bibles, namely:

    1. English Standard Version
    2. International Standard Version, New Testament
    3. La Biblia de las Américas
    4. New American Bible: Revised Edition
    5. Nueva Biblia Latinoamericana de Hoy
    6. Reina Valera Revisada (1960)
    7. The Holman Christian Standard Bible
    8. The New King James Version
    9. Today’s New International Version

    The Bibles missing this trait are listed below, together with the number of cross-references they contain. Whilst not all need to be added, it would be a benefit adding at least the first eight. It would make the biggest difference to Verbum users, and others who want to see cross-references to the Apocrypha, which are very thin on the ground currently:

    1. New International Version (2011) — 103,436
    2. The Greek Testament (Text and Notes) — 99,259
    3. New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update — 93,671
    4. Explanatory Notes upon the Old and New Testament: Translation — 16,635
    5. The Uncanonical and Apocryphal Scriptures — 6,558
    6. The Contemporary English Version — 6,415
    7. The Ecclesiastical or Deutero-Canonical Books of the Old Testament Commonly Called the Apocrypha — 2,237
    8. The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible — 2,150
    9. The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition — 704
    10. Complete Jewish Bible — 691
    11. The Beginnings of Gospel Story: A Historico-Critical Inquiry into the Sources and Structure of the Gospel according to Mark (Bible Text) — 689
    12. The New English Bible — 618
    13. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 8: The Targum Onqelos to Leviticus and The Targum Onqelos to Numbers — 550
    14. The New International Version (Anglicised) — 408
    15. The Revised English Bible — 275
    16. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 9: The Targum Onqelos to Deuteronomy — 273
    17. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 6: The Targum Onqelos to Genesis — 240
    18. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 15: The Targum of Job and The Targum of Proverbs and The Targum of Qohelet — 214
    19. The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament — 203
    20. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 2: Targum Neofiti 1: Exodus and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Exodus — 199
    21. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 7: The Targum of Onqelos to Exodus — 173
    22. International Standard Version — 171
    23. New Century Version — 155
    24. The Apocalypse of Ezra (2 Esdras 3–14) — 152
    25. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 5B: Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Deuteronomy — 141
    26. The NET Bible — 136
    27. The Wisdom of Solomon — 135
    28. Joel: A Translation, in Metrical Parallelisms, according to the Hebrew Method of Punctuation — 128
    29. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 18: The Two Targums of Esther — 127
    30. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 4: Targum Neofiti 1: Numbers and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Numbers — 123
    31. The Epistle to the Hebrews: Bible Text — 111
    32. The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament — 110
    33. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 12: The Targum of Jeremiah — 104
    34. Two Unknown Hebrew Versions of Tobit — 103
    35. Nova Vulgata Bibliorum Sacrorum Editio — 101
    36. The Original Hebrew of a Portion of Ecclesiasticus: Hebrew Text — 90
    37. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 1A: Targum Neofiti 1: Genesis — 72
    38. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 19: The Targum of Ruth and The Targum of Chronicles — 59
    39. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 1B: Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Genesis — 57
    40. The Original Hebrew of a Portion of Ecclesiasticus: Translation — 22
    41. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 14: The Targum of the Minor Prophets — 21
    42. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 5A: Targum Neofiti 1: Deuteronomy — 20
    43. The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition — 13
    44. The Old Testament in Greek according to the Septuagint — 13
    45. The Wisdom of Ben-Sira (Ecclesiasticus) — 12
    46. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 11: The Isaiah Targum — 9
    47. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 13: The Targum of Ezekiel — 9
    48. The Minor Prophets: Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi — 9
    49. The Books of the Prophets Micah, Obadiah, Joel and Jonah with Introduction and Notes — 7
    50. The Book of Isaiah according to the Septuagint (Codex Alexandrinus), Volume 1 (Translation from the Greek) — 6
    51. Hosea: Translated from the Hebrew with Notes Explanatory and Critical — 6
    52. Wisdom and the Jewish Apocryphal Writings — 4
    53. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 16: The Targum of Psalms — 2
    54. The Earliest Gospel: A Historical Study of the Gospel according to Mark: Greek Text — 2

    * I believe the first list is complete, as it comes from Logos' own metadata. The second list is restricted to resources that I own. There may be other Bibles I don't own that also have cross references, or Bibles that have cross references but don't utilise the cross-reference field [such as the TNIV]). If you want to try it for yourself, do a "By Count" search in a Bibles collection, searching the Cross Reference field for <Gen-Rev>. Go and make a coffee whilst you await results ;-).

    This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

    Dylan RondeauUser: "Dylan Rondeau"
    Dylan Rondeau

    We do have an active case for updating the sources for Cross References in PG. I've added a link to this thread to make sure we consider the resources you all have listed here. There's currently no ETA assigned to the case.

    Dylan Rondeau, Software Tester

    Enable Logging: Mac | Windows (Right-click "Save As...")

    Dylan RondeauUser: "Dylan Rondeau"
    Dylan Rondeau

    We do have an active case for updating the sources for Cross References in PG.

    The following resources have had the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait added: (sorry for the formatting)

    • Alford's Greek Testament (Text and Notes)
    • The Uncanonical and Apocryphal Scriptures
    • The Ecclesiastical or Deutero-Canonical Books of the Old Testament Commonly Called the Apocrypha
    • Nova Vulgata Bibliorum Sacrorum Edition
    • AMPATBBL
    • ARAMAICBBL01A
    • ARAMAICBBL01B
    • ARAMAICBBL02
    • ARAMAICBBL04
    • ARAMAICBBL05A
    • ARAMAICBBL06
    • ARAMAICBBL07
    • ARAMAICBBL08
    • ARAMAICBBL09
    • ARAMAICBBL11
    • ARAMAICBBL12
    • ARAMAICBBL13
    • ARAMAICBBL14
    • ARAMAICBBL15
    • ARAMAICBBL18
    • ARAMAICBBL19
    • AV1873
    • CEB
    • CEV
    • CZECHSB
    • DCAPOCCHURTON
    • DCBENSIRAOESTERLEY
    • DCECCLBALL
    • DCECCLCOWLEYENG
    • DCECCLCOWLEYHEB
    • DCTOBITGASTER
    • DCWISDOESTERLEY
    • DCWISDSTEVENSON
    • EC_BLFBIBPV2009
    • EINHEIT
    • EINHEIT2
    • EMPHBBL
    • EOBNT
    • EXPBBLNT
    • GNBNR2000
    • GNT
    • ID-BIMK
    • ID-ITB
    • KJV1900
    • LBLA95
    • LUTBIB1984
    • MENGE
    • MINPRODRIVER
    • MINPROHORSLEY
    • MINPROROWLEY
    • MINPROWADE
    • MS-TDYMALAYV
    • NA28GBS
    • NBV
    • NBVTEST
    • NCV
    • NEWSFLLIFBBL
    • NIV2011
    • NOVAVULGATA
    • RSV2CE
    • SI-PIJINBBL
    • SNTGMUBS4
    • TH-THBS1973
    • TNIV
    • TONGANBBL
    • TSV
    • ZURCHERBBL200

     

    Dylan Rondeau, Software Tester

    Enable Logging: Mac | Windows (Right-click "Save As...")

    fghUser: "fgh"
    fgh
    ✭✭✭

    The following resources have had the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait added:

    Thanks, that's many more than I dared hope for (especially this soon).

    However, one Bible I'm not seeing is Bibel 82. I wouldn't trouble you with it if it wasn't for the fact that, as you can see in one of my posts above, it turned out to be an exceptional Bible for [NT & Apocrypha] cross references. So, is there any chance you could add it? It can't be that much work if it's only metadata.

    Also, am I correct in not seeing NASB and the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible on that list? They were among Mark's top 8.

    Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2

    Jannie van NiekerkUser: "Jannie van Niekerk"
    Jannie van Niekerk

    So, is there any chance you could add it?

    fgh,

    I added the trait. Please verify the resource shows up in the passage guide as expected after you have done a meta data sync.

    Thanks!

    User: "Donnie Hale"
    Donnie Hale
    ✭✭✭

    In the cross-reference section of the Passage Guide, are all Bibles with cross-reference information fields searched to fill the section?

    When I really started using Logos with L4, one of the first things I asked about was cross references. It still seems to me that Logos could provide a feature that gave us the mathematical union of cross references from a set (collection ?) of resources having cross reference data. As it is, I'm left picking and poking from TSK and my top couple of Bibles (manually), and Carson/Beale (Commentary on NT use of OT) - hoping I don't miss anything useful.

    Donnie

    Mark BarnesUser: "Mark Barnes"
    Mark Barnes
    ✭✭✭

    It still seems to me that Logos could provide a feature that gave us the mathematical union of cross references from a set (collection ?) of resources having cross reference data.

    That's exactly what's happening in the passage guide. The problem is that for some reason not all appropriate resources are included.

    This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

    User: "Donnie Hale"
    Donnie Hale
    ✭✭✭

    That's exactly what's happening in the passage guide. The problem is that for some reason not all appropriate resources are included.

    Clarifying...

    First, you're saying that the Cross Reference section of the Passage Guide is supposed to provide the functionality I described?

    Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

    Thanks,

    Donnie

    MJ. SmithUser: "MJ. Smith"
    MJ. Smith
    OP

    Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

    In order for a Bible to be searched for cross-references, two things have to be true:

    1. It must have the resource trait cross-reference set (group 1)
    2. It must have cross-reference fields to be accessed (group 1 and group 2)

    So all the resources listed by Mark have cross-references available but only those in group 1 appear in the PG xref section.

    In addition, there is no direct way to get the cross-references from group 2 into a passage list for review. The net result is that the deuterocanonicals are grossly under represented.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

    Mark BarnesUser: "Mark Barnes"
    Mark Barnes
    ✭✭✭

    First, you're saying that the Cross Reference section of the Passage Guide is supposed to provide the functionality I described?

    Correct.

    Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

    The latter. Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.

    This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

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