Logos 5: MacPro vs. Mini Mac

I apologize in a advance if this is the wrong forum for this question, but would appreciate your assistance.

We have been running Logos 5 / Portfolio+ on a i7/8GB Ram Mini Mac for the past two years. Logos runs sluggishly on such a set up with ATA drive. Though this system was maxed out at the time of purchase it has never run Logos efficiently. So, it is time to upgrade.

We are faced with a difficult decision. Both of these systems would seem to be somewhat of an improvement over the old one. Monitor is a 55" - either system will drive it well.

I am not sure if Logos is even capable of using the MacPro (not MacBook Pro). If not then that would be a bunch of wasted funds.

What would the advantages and disadvantages of each system be. Thanks in advance for your wisdom.

MacPro

Quad-Core and Dual GPU
3.7GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon E5 processor
32GB 1866MHz DDR3 ECC memory
Dual AMD FirePro D300
with 2GB GDDR5 VRAM each
256GB PCIe-based flash storage

Mac Mini:

2.6GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7
16GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM
1TB Fusion Drive or
256GB Solid State Drive

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Mark Barnes

We have been running Logos 5 / Portfolio+ on a i7/8GB Ram Mini Mac for the past two years.

That is more than high enough spec for L5. Personally, I'd just swap out the HD for a large, fast SSD and save your money. That will make a much bigger difference than a slightly faster processor of 16GB RAM.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/613916#Comment_613916

I'm using one of the latest MacMini's 2.3 i7 with 16 GB RAM and a standard drive. It's really quite enough, but a faster drive certainly wouldn't hurt.

Adding RAM and a faster drive should boost things a lot. One uses about 4 GB RAM for Mavericks and a few ongoing apps before Logos fires up on my machine.

Sacrifice

Thanks for the information. The plan is to use the current system as a backup just in case. ... So, it appears as if a new Mac Mini will be enough. Can't see spending 4k when less than 2k will do the job well. But it would be nice I'm sure ....

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

I am not sure if Logos is even capable of using the MacPro (not MacBook Pro). If not then that would be a bunch of wasted funds.

Welcome [:D]

The current Logos 5.2b Beta is a 32 bit application that needs OS X 10.6 (or later). After WWDC 2014, Logos started thread => Important announcement for OS X 10.8 users

Logos 5.3 will require OS X 10.9 (or later) => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/86933/610448.aspx#610448

For the record, what are the oldest Microsoft and Apple operating systems that will run Logos 5?

Logos 4.6c will run on Windows XP SP3 or Mac OS X 10.5 (or later).

Logos 5.2a will run on Windows Vista SP2 or Mac OS X 10.6 (or later).

Logos 5.3 (not released yet) will require Windows 7 SP1 or Mac OS X 10.9 (or later).

Mac Rumors has a Buyer's Guide => http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac

Anticipating Mac Mini refresh soon => http://www.macrumors.com/2014/07/29/support-page-references-unreleased-mac-mini/

Apple offers refurbished models => http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac

GeekBench has Mac Benchmarks => http://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks that allows comparison of processor performance. For example, the fastest 2012 Mac Mini with 2.6 GHz i7 (3rd generation) has a benchmark of 2909, which is 0.3 % faster than 2898 benchmark for mid 2013 model 11" MacBook Air with 1.7 GHz i7 (4th generation). The Mac Pro Intel Xeon E5 at 3.7 GHz is 9.5 % slower than the 2.8 GHz i7 in mid 2014 model 15" MacBook Pro with retina display.

Note: Mac Mini memory can easily be upgraded while MacBook memory cannot.

The "I Fix It" web site has Mac Repair Guides => https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Mac that includes a Mac Mini dual drive kit.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Charles

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/613953#Comment_613953

The current Logos 5.2b Beta is a 32 bit application that needs OS X 10.6 (or later).

Well that's interesting. I always thought Logos 5 was a 64 bit application. When is Logos going to go 64 bit since the latest versions of Mac OS X and Windows are 64 bit?

In Christ,

Charles

Sacrifice

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/613953#Comment_613953

Keep Smiling for Jesus,

Thanks for all the technical info. It is helpful. However, my "experience" with Logos 5 and my Mac Mini tell a different story. My present configuration:

Processor 2.7 GHz Intel Core i7

Memory 8 GB 1333 MHz DDR3

Graphics AMD Radeon HD 6630M 256 MB

Software OS X 10.9.4 (13E28)

First, being able to just run Logos 5 and being able to run it "efficiently" are two different things. I need the Burger King version of Logos 5 - I need it to run "my way" - it needs to run with the books I have opened, that I need, etc. Right now I am getting the "Where's the Beef" version of Logos 5; i.e. it is just not cutting it.

With ATA drives - running OS X 10.9.4 and 8GB Ram (my mini is maxed out on Ram) - Logos 5 drags. In addition there is down time, especially when it is updating books, etc. At times Logos 5 just shuts down during normal use (I am not speaking about when it is indexing). Logos 5 is just too taxing for my present system ...

Logos 5 has been taxing on every Mac OS from late 2011 forward, except on a friend's - that has a solid state drive. ATA drives and Logos 5 IMO are NOT a good mix. Thus, this is my reasoning for upgrading.

Second, I am NOT considering a MacBook Pro (my initial post says "not MacBook Pro"), but Mac Pro - this is a completely different system - much more powerful than a MacBook Pro. See - http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/mac-pro?afid=p219|GOUS&cid=AOS-US-KWG

My wife owns a brand new MacBook Pro (maxed out) - literally days old - and Logos is sluggish even on it. My wife removed Logos and is using a competitor's software because it just runs better (loads faster, updates are faster, no crashes, etc.) for her applications (she teaches computers in a Christian school) ....

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614002#Comment_614002

ATA drives and Logos 5 IMO are NOT a good mix.

I agree — if you want speed, tend to 'push' Logos, and have a large library. But if that's the case, why not just buy a decent SSD for your existing Mac Mini?

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614002#Comment_614002

My wife owns a brand new MacBook Pro (maxed out) - literally days old - and Logos is sluggish even on it. My wife removed Logos and is using a competitor's software because it just runs better (loads faster, updates are faster, no crashes, etc.) for her applications (she teaches computers in a Christian school) ....

Logos isn't quick and nimble like us Mac users are accustomed to. Depending on ones needs, it can be very slow and painful... My primary usage is for reading books, making highlights, and performing searches. With my SSD, Logos is much faster than it used to be... but some things are still painfully slow. I hate the speed of the homepage, so I don't ever use it.

fgh

I was in the same position as you, except my Mini was from 2010, so my situation was far more desperate than yours. I would say this: do not buy the current Mini at this point in time. Some clumsy Apple employee managed to display the line "Mac Mini (mid 2014)" on a support page recently (it was quickly removed, but there are screenshots on the web), so the chance of a new Mini this quarter seems pretty high. With your Mini, you can afford to wait and make a more informed decision later.

My guess (hope) would be that with many fewer OS's to support, Logos 5.3 and 5.4 should see some speed increases. (If you keep an eye on the Beta forum and wait for the Release Notes for 5.3 beta 1 and 2 to show up, that too may help you make a more informed decision).

What would the advantages and disadvantages of each system be.

The only advantage I can think of with the Mini is the price. In everything else the Pro should be superior. Value is a completely different matter, of course.

32GB 1866MHz DDR3 ECC memory

Why on earth would you pay for 32GB of Apple's expensive memory? The standard Pro comes with 12. I'll add an 8GB in the free slot when I feel the need for more and the prices are right, and then switch the other 4's for 8's as need arises (if it ever does). I did pay for more storage, though.

That is more than high enough spec for L5. Personally, I'd just swap out the HD for a large, fast SSD and save your money. That will make a much bigger difference than a slightly faster processor of 16GB RAM.

I quickly found 8GB far too little, and often had to restart programs twice a day. Logos seems to use 2-3-4 times as much memory on Mac as it does on Windows, and Safari eats RAM for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and constant snacks in between. But I agree an SSD will make more difference than the processor.

Sacrifice

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614042#Comment_614042

Thanks again for this additional assistance.

Mark, all this goes to a committee, so if they desire just to upgrade to SSD that is great with me. However, they normally just opt to go new. In additional their plan is for my present mini to be a backup.... (there is tons of lightning where I live so ....).

Alabama, thanks for this. I thought I would put all the sluggishness away with a new Mini - maybe not. You have me leaning a little more towards the Mac Pro now.

fgh your insights helped out a lot. I think I have a month before I have to give 'them' a decision. Hopefully the new minis (excellent info there) will be out soon. That will help me compare a better mini to the Mac Pro at that time.

Thanks again everyone. This has been very helpful.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614002#Comment_614002

My wife owns a brand new MacBook Pro (maxed out) - literally days old - and Logos is sluggish even on it. My wife removed Logos and is using a competitor's software because it just runs better (loads faster, updates are faster, no crashes, etc.) for her applications (she teaches computers in a Christian school) ....

Curious what is being used in Logos (compared to what is open). Personally have learned that less open tabs and sections is more responsive on OS X and Windows; also know how to open more quickly when desired. Wiki has => https://wiki.logos.com/Getting_Started_with_Logos

With a friend was looking at 2012 Mac Mini and 2013 Mac Book Air. Friend decided Mac Book Air with internal SSD was a bit better to use with an external monitor.

Looking forward to 2014 Mac Mini.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Schumitinu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614272#Comment_614272

Just curious, how well does a Mac Mini handle heat? Does it have ventilation? I'm living in a hot climate without air conditioning. And I just had a motherboard go bad on my MacBook Pro 15" (early 2011), most likely because of heat. For being my first Mac this was a bad Mac experience!!!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614279#Comment_614279

Just curious, how well does a Mac Mini handle heat?

BTU output ranges from 38 BTU/h to 290 BTU/h => http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3468

I Fix It Repair Guides for Mac Mini show internal fan => https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Mac_Mini

Logos indexing is resource intensive so would index during cool of night.

And I just had a motherboard go bad on my MacBook Pro 15" (early 2011), most likely because of heat.

Personally use laptop cooler with any laptop to help heat dissipation.

Mac Book Pro review => http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-Retina-15-Late-2013-Notebook-Review.120330.0.html includes

[quote]

Temperature

Aluminum has the advantage of a stylish design and the distribution of local hot spots. The problem is that this material warms up somewhat quickly and, because of the thin construction of the device, it can result in unpleasant temperatures. Especially striking is that the hot spot of the heat development is on top of the keyboard. However, the Dell XPS 15, which has even bigger cooling issues with its 18 mm (~0.7 in) thin chassis, shows that this problem is not limited to Apple devices. Dell's hot spot of 64.6 °C (148.28 °F) is at the bottom, but the 46 °C (114.8 °F) at the top of the MacBook is slightly surpassed by the XPS as well. Still, the heat development is subjectively always fine in practice.

Our stress test with Prime95 and FurMark shows that the CPU in particular reaches very high temperatures, close to 100 °C (212 °F). As we mentioned in the Processor section, we can see a drop below the nominal clock under Windows, but not under Mac OS. A 3DMark 06 run after the stress test did not show any restrictions and resulted in 16,003 points.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Schumitinu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614285#Comment_614285

Thanks Keep Smiling!

I learned a lot about Macs lately in this forum!

Sacrifice

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614279#Comment_614279

I think you would be ok in hot climates with a Mac Mini - especially one with flash or SSD. I have air conditioning though, so your experience may be different. I have ventilation (lots of open space) above and below mine.

I have discovered that Minis are very good computers. I live in the lightning capital of the world. We suffer numerous brown/black out almost every day. The Mini has not even hiccuped - like the energizer rabbit - just keeps going and going. (Of course we use a good surge protector - SurgeX).

Just curious, how well does a Mac Mini handle heat? Does it have ventilation? I'm living in a hot climate without air conditioning. And I just had a motherboard go bad on my MacBook Pro 15" (early 2011), most likely because of heat. For being my first Mac this was a bad Mac experience!!!

Sacrifice

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614272#Comment_614272

KSJ,

I write commentaries, so I use a lot of resources from languages to other commentaries, etc. which I consult in a specific order (thus they remain open, otherwise I will forget the order costing valuable time ....). I am given a certain amount of time to finish a chapter (then the work goes to a different stage ...), so "immediate access" is needed to speed up the work.

Today, I have 21 tabs open. I agree with you that if I kept less tabs open, Logos would respond better, faster, etc. but as I am sure you can see then Logos would not be fulfilling its purpose for my studies, needs, ...

My wife by necessity uses a Smart Board (SB) as her monitor for her classes. While she does not use that many tabs - maybe 5-7 - the transition from laptop to SB with Logos is rather slow as compared with the competitor's software. Not sure why.

I am looking forward to the new Mac Mini too, though I must admit the Mac Pro really looks interesting. It may better fill my needs.

What I am really looking forward too is what a flash/SSD looks like driving a 55" monitor.

My wife owns a brand new MacBook Pro (maxed out) - literally days old - and Logos is sluggish even on it. My wife removed Logos and is using a competitor's software because it just runs better (loads faster, updates are faster, no crashes, etc.) for her applications (she teaches computers in a Christian school) ....

With a friend was looking at 2012 Mac Mini and 2013 Mac Book Air. Friend decided Mac Book Air with internal SSD was a bit better to use with an external monitor.

Looking forward to 2014 Mac Mini.

Keep Smiling Smile

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614279#Comment_614279

My Pro stays about 30-40°C cooler than my Mini did.

Sacrifice

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614337#Comment_614337

Wow, I would not expect that. Mine is always very cool to the touch. My late-2011 mini temps are listed below.

fgh, aren’t the Intel processors in minis designed to automatically shut down to prevent damage if they ever overheat? Mine never has, but I thought I read this somewhere ….

Ambient Air – 46c

CPU - 53c

Power Supply – 43c

My Pro stays about 30-40°C cooler than my Mini did.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614367#Comment_614367

My Mini was never that cool. I think 68 or so was the coolest I ever say it. Usually it was in the 70-ies, with occasional peaks up to 82-83. I think the fan started around 80-82.

The Pro seems to stay between 38 and 42.

Sacrifice

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614465#Comment_614465

Yours did run hotter. I just finished reading some posts though on the Apple forum and the temps for minis are suppose to run a little hotter than normal. so, it appears to be ok ....

My Mini was never that cool. I think 68 or so was the coolest I ever say it. Usually it was in the 70-ies, with occasional peaks up to 82-83. I think the fan started around 80-82.

The Pro seems to stay between 38 and 42.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/613969#Comment_613969

I always thought Logos 5 was a 64 bit application. When is Logos going to go 64 bit since the latest versions of Mac OS X and Windows are 64 bit?

Coming with 5.3: 5.3 Beta 1 Warning.

Sacrifice

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/614992#Comment_614992

64 bit

I always thought Logos 5 was a 64 bit application. When is Logos going to go 64 bit since the latest versions of Mac OS X and Windows are 64 bit?

Coming with 5.3: 5.3 Beta 1 Warning.