Hebrew Searching (phrase or muli-word)

As a relatively new user of Logos, I've been fighting depression related to not being able to do what I thought I was buying it for: multiword searchs. I've read the tutorials on searchings, but it doesn't seem to work for Hebrew. Here's what I'm doing.

For example, an English search for "Law of Moses" brings up numerous references on a Bible search, but I cannot make "תורת משה" bring up anything. I have tried "תורה" AND "משה" but still no luck. I couldn't get it to work in a morph search either. I assumed that Logos would handle Hebrew the same way it handles English... type it in and search for it, but no luck.I've tried with and without quotation marks, etc.

I really wish I could highlight a phrase of text and have it search for all the words in the phrase at once, like a multi concordance search. Can this be done? I assumed it could, and that's one of the main reasons I bought the program.

Any help appreciated.

-John Quant

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

For example, an English search for "Law of Moses" brings up numerous references on a Bible search, but I cannot make "תורת משה" bring up anything. I have tried "תורה" AND "משה" but still no luck. I couldn't get it to work in a morph search either. I assumed that Logos would handle Hebrew the same way it handles English... type it in and search for it, but no luck.I've tried with and without quotation marks, etc.

Apologies - still have much to learn about Hebrew, including typing. Currently I can use copy and paste. Logos 4 does have h:### for typing transliteration, then choosing hebrew lemma.

Initially did a Bible Search for "Law of Moses" - found Joshua 8:31

Next did a Morph Search for Law by right clicking Law in Joshua 8:31, click Lemma, click Morph Search.

Followed by Morph Search for Moses. Then changed Morph Searches to Bible Searches. Screen shot shows Morph and Bible searches for individual words:

Bible Search can use proximity operators (e.g. NEAR) so copied Bible Search expressions and added proximity operator:

I really wish I could highlight a phrase of text and have it search for all the words in the phrase at once, like a multi concordance search. Can this be done?

For grins, opened BHS/WIVU to Joshua 8:31 then realized I could not recognize "Law of Moses" from forum posting, so opened LHI to show Hebrew with English interlinear (Apologies to George). Went back to BHS/WIVU to copy Hebrew phrase. Opened Search, typed pair of quotes "" then place insertion between quotes and pasted Hebrew phrase for Basic Search that found entries in my Library. Duplicated Basic Search tab, changed to Bible Search, which worked. Back to Basic Search, changed to my collection that excludes Bibles and searched again

Keep Smiling [:)]

John Quant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235283#Comment_235283

Ok, Thanks thus far. So I tried doing a cut 'n paste search for "תורת משה" and it gave me 7 results in BHS, which is good... but somehow it missed Dan 9:11, 1 Kgs 2:3, Ezra 3:2 & 7:6, etc. So something is getting hung up... I wonder if it is the vowels, but I can't find a clear pattern that might be a problem.

When I try to type in "תורת משה" from the keyboard, with no vowels, and do a search in all bibles all I get is one occurrence in one of the Qumran mss (and nothing in BHS, etc!). Any idea why this doesn't work or why the above search doesn't catch anything? How to do wildcard characters figure into searches like this?

Thanks much,

John

Bill Shewmaker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235629#Comment_235629

Ok, Thanks thus far. So I tried doing a cut 'n paste search for "תורת משה" and it gave me 7 results in BHS, which is good... but somehow it missed Dan 9:11, 1 Kgs 2:3, Ezra 3:2 & 7:6, etc. So something is getting hung up... I wonder if it is the vowels, but I can't find a clear pattern that might be a problem.

When I try to type in "תורת משה" from the keyboard, with no vowels, and do a search in all bibles all I get is one occurrence in one of the Qumran mss (and nothing in BHS, etc!). Any idea why this doesn't work or why the above search doesn't catch anything? How to do wildcard characters figure into searches like this?

Thanks much,

John

Hi John,

Have you tried typing the lemma form h:torat WITHIN 2 words h:mse? I'm not a Hebrew scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but when I did that in a Bible search, I got 20 hits and I believe all of the references you expected are there.

EDIT: I did this using a Bible search in the ESV. Not sure if the results would be different by using BHS.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235629#Comment_235629

When I'm looking for a Hebrew phrase I use proximity to create a sequence of lemmas,

see: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/31245.aspx for an example

John Quant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235666#Comment_235666

I didn't have any luck with that in ESV or BHS... no better when I typed it in hebrew either... -JQ

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235813#Comment_235813

I didn't have any luck with that in ESV or BHS... no better when I typed it in hebrew either... -JQ

You need to use a Morph search and not a Bible search for the h: input to form a dropdown.

See: http://wiki.logos.com/Morphological_Search

Pog

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235814#Comment_235814

Hi, I have just discovered the same problem. A two-word phrase search in Hebrewלְאֹרֶךְ יָמִים׃ yields no search results regardless of what I seem to do. Tried right-clicking it and search this resource. Failed. Tried morphological search, failed. h:orek yielded no dropdown, neither did h:yamim (though its lemma yom did). Why is this so complicated. I, too, perhaps naively assumed that it would be a case of right-clicking or copying and pasting a phrase from a Hebrew translation into a seach box. I was planning to upgrade to Logos 5. Perhaps I should look more widely for a simpler piece of software!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464871#Comment_464871

Tried morphological search, failed. h:orek yielded no dropdown, neither did h:yamim (though its lemma yom did).

Apologies: unable to replicate using Logos 5.1 Beta 3 since choose Morph Search, then Logos Hebrew Morphology, then entered:

h:orek

for dropdown list of transliterated choices in selected morphology:

Changing Herbew Morphology causes drop down list to change since different morphologies have different lemma tagging:

Keep Smiling [:)]

Alex Prokopenko

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/476804#Comment_476804

Morphological search in Hebrew is one BIG disappointment. On my Logos 4, searching for a phrase doesn't produce any meaningful results. Even when I am looking at a specific phrase in my Hebrew text, even when I know it's there, I can't make the search engine find it. :-( How much more uncertainty about those occasions when you don't know if and where a certain phrase occurs.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688446#Comment_688446

Welcome to the forums Alex. I'm sorry that you are disappointed with the results of your morphological searches. If you give us some examples e.g. the phrase you can make the search engine find, we may be able to point you in the right direction. There are some forums regulars who are very comfortable with complex Hebrew searches.

John Quant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688449#Comment_688449

Alex is totally right. In Logos' two major competitors it is very intuitive how to type or click on a phrase like "כל המקום" and get results for where that phrase occurs. The disadvantage of a physical concordance is that it can only give you one word at a time.

As a Bible professor I bought Logos for two reasons: (1) to be able to do concordance like searches for multi-word phrase as in the above example, and (2) to have access to texts and resources I regularly need to consult (Gottingen LXX, Qumran mss, Hermeneia, etc.).

In hindsight, Logos has totally failed to meet my needs or expectations for #1, and while it does #2 well, without #1 I cannot utilize those primary texts with the digital leverage that I thought was the point of Bible software in the first place.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688536#Comment_688536

it is very intuitive how to type or click on a phrase like "כל המקום" and get results for where that phrase occurs

I don't know Hebrew at all but I took the phrase you suggested and ran a search on it. One of the results was in Genesis 20:13

I used the mouse to select both words and right-clicked which gave the menu below - where I choose the phrase at the top right and selected "search this resource"

This resulted in

As above, I don't know Hebrew at all so I don't know if there are issues with this but some further insight into the problems you are seeing would be helpful

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688613#Comment_688613

Is this what you are trying to do? Apart from the method Graham mentioned another method is to simply type the phrase in Hebrew, in quotes.

John Quant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688633#Comment_688633

That is helpful, and I am pleased to see it work.. but when I tried another example, "תורת םשה" it did not generate any results (which it should, unless I am over-looking something). That is what I meant by counter-intuitive. I wish the search bar behaved like Google: type in Hebrew words with AND OR or the minus sign or quotes for exact phrases. Logos seems to be very picky about forms and that slippage means that I have never been able to generate trustworthy results and pretty much stick to Even-Shoshan in hardcopy. I would love to be convinced that LOGOS could actually do what I want it to do (and as some of my colleagues can do very straightforwardly on other programs).

Is there a method to search for ִa less exact phrase? LIke keywords ("פסח" AND "בשל") or some such?

John Quant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688633#Comment_688633

And, I just noticed, the search for "כל המקום" did not detect Exod 20:20 (which has an additional preposition "ב" attached in the front) or Mal. 1:11 which has a conjunction and preposition attached (i.e., to additional letters). A waw or prep. beth at the beginning should not affect the appearance of a word in a search list (it certainly wouldn't in a real concordance).

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688650#Comment_688650

That is helpful, and I am pleased to see it work.. but when I tried another example, "תורת םשה" it did not generate any results (which it should, unless I am over-looking something).

The problem you had with this search is that Logos distinguishes in its searches between ש without a dot and with a dot (usually typed with the shift key), and between מ and ם. I would personally like to see this changed. But if you keep it in mind that should help. A search for "תורת משׁה" works properly.

That is what I meant by counter-intuitive. I wish the search bar behaved like Google: type in Hebrew words with AND OR or the minus sign or quotes for exact phrases. Logos seems to be very picky about forms and that slippage means that I have never been able to generate trustworthy results and pretty much stick to Even-Shoshan in hardcopy. I would love to be convinced that LOGOS could actually do what I want it to do (and as some of my colleagues can do very straightforwardly on other programs).

Is there a method to search for ִa less exact phrase? LIke keywords ("פסח" AND "בשל") or some such?

If you are trying to replicate what a concordance does, the best thing would be to search with "lemma" or "root". You can select them from the dropdown, or right click on a word and select the lemma and root and search from there. To make the dropdown easier, you can try typing in lemma:h: or root:h:

or for the root version

BTW, I agree with you that this could be made easier, but know that it is possible, and isn't too terribly difficult once you figure out the tricks.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688651#Comment_688651

A waw or prep. beth at the beginning should not affect the appearance of a word in a search list (it certainly wouldn't in a real concordance).

Do "search modifiers" - itemised at https://wiki.logos.com/Search_Matching_Commands and an example shown at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/60690/533192.aspx#533192 help at all?

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688651#Comment_688651

And, I just noticed, the search for "כל המקום" did not detect Exod 20:20 (which has an additional preposition "ב" attached in the front) or Mal. 1:11 which has a conjunction and preposition attached (i.e., to additional letters). A waw or prep. beth at the beginning should not affect the appearance of a word in a search list (it certainly wouldn't in a real concordance).

The "" indicates you want to search for a phrase.

The concordance search for this one would be: <Lemma = lbs/he/מָקוֹם> <Lemma = lbs/he/כֹּל>

FYI, what I prefer to do to construct this phrase (and what I did right now in responding to this post) is right click the word in Exodus 20:24, select the lemma, search. Then right click the next word, and search the lemma. Then copy and paste the two and search.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688650#Comment_688650

Is there a method to search for ִa less exact phrase? LIke keywords ("פסח" AND "בשל") or some such?

In addition to Fr Devin's comments https://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help#Proximity_Operators shows what proximity operators are supported

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235629#Comment_235629

Ok, Thanks thus far. So I tried doing a cut 'n paste search for "תורת משה" and it gave me 7 results in BHS, which is good... but somehow it missed Dan 9:11, 1 Kgs 2:3, Ezra 3:2 & 7:6, etc. So something is getting hung up... I wonder if it is the vowels, but I can't find a clear pattern that might be a problem.

When I try to type in "תורת משה" from the keyboard, with no vowels, and do a search in all bibles all I get is one occurrence in one of the Qumran mss (and nothing in BHS, etc!). Any idea why this doesn't work or why the above search doesn't catch anything? How to do wildcard characters figure into searches like this?

These are the same problems - in the first, the phrase search is looking for complete words, so prefixed words are excluded. A lemma search is needed, and if you search for both lemmas you should get all results as you would in a concordance. You can also do a sort of flexible phrase search with lemmas, using the proximity operator WITHIN. So, you could search for <lemma> WITHIN 2 WORDS <lemma>, or something like that, or similar with BEFORE or AFTER.

In the second case, the single hit from the Qumran mss is related to the Hebrew letter ש not having the dot!

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688680#Comment_688680

BTW, just in case you aren't familiar with what I mentioned about searching the lemma from the right click menu, here is what it looks like in Daniel 9:11, with the lemma for torah selected.

Also, play around with searching more in the Morph tab. The Morph tab is really optimized for lemma searching, which is what it sounds like you are after. Typing h: there will pull up a list with the lemmas and roots at the top, and the syntax is a little simpler (i.e. you don't see the <> syntax and such).

David Roberts

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688651#Comment_688651

And, I just noticed, the search for "כל המקום" did not detect Exod 20:20 (which has an additional preposition "ב" attached in the front) or Mal. 1:11 which has a conjunction and preposition attached (i.e., to additional letters). A waw or prep. beth at the beginning should not affect the appearance of a word in a search list (it certainly wouldn't in a real concordance).

That's because Hebrew searches in Logos are hyper-literal. There's no fuzzy thinking involved with simple searches like the A.I. used in the Google search engine, but there is a relatively painless way to do quick and accurate Hebrew searches.

Type one Hebrew word only into the search, then press the down arrow key. This will show you all the lemmas and it means you don't have to type something like lemma:כל.2 yourself everytime you want to do a Hebrew search. Make sure you choose the right lemma, switch back to English press space type BEFORE 1 WORD then switch back to Hebrew type מקום press the down arrow key for the lemma, if you only want הַמָּקוֹם and not other forms, press @ then N for noun, then choose 'singular' + 'masculine' + 'definite with ה'.

That's basically how I run my Hebrew searches every single time.

I use the shortcut language keys in Windows so I can switch instantly between Hebrew, English and other languages, that speeds up entry substantially.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/688651#Comment_688651

the search for "כל המקום" did not detect Exod 20:20 (which has an additional preposition "ב" attached in the front)

Used Phrase search "כל המקום" to find lemmas and roots so could transform search into:

root:כֹּל BEFORE 0 WORDS lemma:הַ BEFORE 0 WORDS root:קום

The Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear can show Manuscript, Lemmas, and Literal Translation, which was helpful to check phrase search results since have lot more Hebrew to learn.

Keep Smiling [:)]