RE: Logos NOW

Re: Previous questions/comments on Logos Now : This is nothing short of the Adobe model, and what they did with Photoshop CS6 - no longer available as a separate package. One is now on the hook to either 1.) pay for the "privilege" of beta testing for Faithlife, 2.) "rent"- not own - the program - and lose all newest features if one stops paying rent, or 3.) pay for the software over and over - not just twice.

To quote one well-know former Logos employee who still makes his living supporting Logos - "Personally, I think it stinks that Logos is now charging more money for more features after just upgrading. But, hey what can you do? And if you read the fine print, once you stop the subscription, you lose the new features" He goes on to note that no one knows what the implications are for Logos 7, either." Clearly he is very dissatisfied with this event.

The individuals who believe that this is great or they are getting a good deal need to consider these points, ignore the Faithlife spin, and to quote one famous icon, "stop drinking the Kool-Aid". At $8.99/month, less free month, its almost $100/year - certainly not trivial for me - and after a two year cycle, do I get any credit against 7, does 7 contain these features, etc. - and one keeps on paying as they move towards version 8 - if they don't follow the Adobe model. It's simply another scheme to finance their development costs (and obviously increasing overhead subsequent to the sale/acquisition) and create a permanent, known base income stream. This does not even factor in the complications created by greatly increasing the complexity of user configurations in release that Logos must/should support. I don't believe with the information now in hand that this offering is good for the consumer, and I am not certain that in the long view it is good for Logos/Faithlife, either.

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MJ. Smith

Welcome to the forums. As I am not a business person and have no interest in becoming one, I'll add this to my very long list of posts to ignore and let Bob, who is a business person and appears to enjoy it, handle the business side.

DMB

Roger ... giving money to Logos isn't koolaid. And how can you be critical when you just don't know. Even Bob doesn't know. It's best to just sign up, give the money, and then see what happens.

Plus, do the math. Let's say 1,000 people who don't know, sign up. That would be $10,000 to help Logos determine the solution to not knowing. I think $10,000 should be enough for now.

EDIT: Uh oh. I may have calculated too optimistically.

Rayner

I have no intention of paying for Logos Now until or unless it can do something I require. It's not as though our current packages are going to become inaccessible...

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715728#Comment_715728

At least some customers are also interested in the business side even if they are not business persons. I hope Logos will not ignore this post. Roger is capturing something here that a lot of people are apparently feeling, some people for whom money doesn't grow on trees and yet have invested heavily in Logos and have a concern about the direction Logos is going.

Logos may be going the direction of the future and we may all be grateful very soon. The subscription model seems at first look to be money out and we don't own anything, we just sort of rent resources. The business trajectory isn't what most of us bought into originally and it is uncomfortable for many.

I for one respect Roger's concerns, although I think the concerns can be respectfully put to rest. Roger, please consider this thread.

Denise, your math...

Roger Kadeg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715728#Comment_715728

Denise -

Thank-you for your consideration. I certainly support the over-all effort to utilize to the extent feasible the application of modern technology to enhance the study of God's Word, and the effective proclamation of the Gospel. However, to purchase and thereby endorse a product just because it becomes available, with the number of unknowns including its long term impacts on the aggregate software and associated application, may not be the wisest use of the Lord's funds. While Faithlife could be considered a ministry, it is, first and foremost, a business enterprise. Unfortunately, not every move they make is the best. I consider my expenditures as purchases, not donations, although I generally strongly support the product. Again, one can use good judgment, and in this case the parallel example of Adobe, to assist in making a reasonable evaluation. My citing of a well-informed individual with inside connections, and more knowledge of the company and especially the software itself, is also a basis for my evaluation. I put the question directly to him - and this was his response. As to the math - close enough - but that is $10K per month - over $100K per year - on top of some of the most expensive base program software that is widely distributed. And - believe me - given the client base, there will be a lot more than 1,000 showing interest. This is a Faithlife business decision - and I just wish they would be more up front about it as opposed to marketing it in the manner they have chosen. If they need to alter their business model to support development - please just tell their customers! (Realize too, that this amount of money is almost in the noise compared to the operating expenses including over 400 employee's salaries.)

Roger Kadeg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715736#Comment_715736

Gao - Thank-you for the redirect to this thread which I had not seen. It certainly verifies my concerns. I still think in the end it is all about revenue - and predictable revenue streams. Not necessarily a bad business decision - but perhaps not at all in the best interests of the customers - especially those such as myself who have invested heavily in the products. Many of these changes in direction appear to have occurred after the acquisition by the present ownership.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715743#Comment_715743

Roger, it is the Sabbath...you shouldn't be working so hard at showing how uninformed you are.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715743#Comment_715743

Many of these changes in direction appear to have occurred after the acquisition by the present ownership.

Huh???

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715759#Comment_715759

I think he means the logos to faithlife name change.

However, it would be interesting to know who was what pct partner before, and what pct partner they are now that the name has changed.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715759#Comment_715759

Many of these changes in direction appear to have occurred after the acquisition by the present ownership.

Huh???

LOL I'm glad I'm not the only one confused SuperTramp!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715743#Comment_715743

Many of these changes in direction appear to have occurred after the acquisition by the present ownership.

Same ownership as always from the beginning. Founded by Bob Pritchett, and he's still the CEO and one of the main shareholders (it's still a privately held company). It's just a new name for the company. Logos --> Faithlife. They renamed it because they have (over the years) expanded their product line to more than just Logos Bible Software, and they wanted a larger brand name that could accommodate their whole family of products (Vyrso, Proclaim, etc.). Logos is still their flagship product, though.

The blog post that explains the change is here: https://blog.logos.com/2014/09/logos-is-faithlife/

Roger Kadeg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715787#Comment_715787

Rosie et al

Sorry for the confusion. Mr. Prichett is still a main shareholder, in a private company. However, with at least the third rebranding, I believe there may have been some reallocation or redistribution of internal shares (see abondservant's comment). A good description of the company/software evolution is found at this Wikipedia link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos_Bible_Software.

More importantly, many customers - especially the long time users - feel the general direction of the company has changed - in a sense"lost its way" to quote one. For an interesting spectrum of the opinions, check out the comments on this link of Faithlife's announcement : https://blog.logos.com/2014/09/logos-is-faithlife/ See also Mr. Prichett's detailed explanation of why Logos Now and an excellent rebuttal by James Hudson on this link: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/103335.aspx?PageIndex=1

One thing is clear. This announcement and offering is not without a great deal of controversy. Many loyal users who have made significant investments under the original business model are not pleased, despite the explanation.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715805#Comment_715805

Not surprising...as YHWH says: My people are stupid with no understanding.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715806#Comment_715806

My interest in all this is my relatively small investment in the electronic library that I have...quite small in comparison of others I suspect. As a business I am somewhat fascinated with the notion that Faithlife will not try to soak as much money out of it's "customers" as they possible can for profit. It is the nature of business in a Capitalistic system, as best as I understand, to maximize what the owners/shareholders make off their products in an oligopolistic market place. I would also expect once the subscription model has sucked up as much cash as customers can afford there will be yet another "good idea" to expand profits from those dedicated to the product name. Nothing wrong with that...it's just business.

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715813#Comment_715813

I took the offer- 8.99 a month is a small price to pay to see how it benefits me, if it doesn't stop it, IF it does continue and see how it plays out over the next year or so.

Will this be in the long run something I will embrace, not sure, but this I do know I will not sacrifice "personal ownership" of my library. I have a large sum invested in Logos, I own it. Though many speak of web based, or cloud base products those ideas can be out of the control of the "user" notice "user" not OWNER. I'm old school I pay my money it belongs to me.

Now let me be clear there is nothing wrong with this idea, it gives access to features and products not in my upgrade to L6 Collectors and numerous other add on's. But if I upgrade to L7 and those features are part of the upgrade I cannot see Bob or Faithlife charging me a monthly fee after I pay for them. I would imagine at that point the dynamics of those features would change to others that are going to be enhanced at a later date in L7 or even L8.

So please calm down- if you can't afford it wait till you can, ask others who have it to post updates on how these additional features work and are they really beneficial, it may not be for you.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715834#Comment_715834

Whyndell, no intent to argue with you. But your line in the sand is a sandy line. Ownership. Folks think it's a yea/nea issue. But it's more sandy than that. Bob said he'll support ownership for the foreseeable future. Like Logos5? Or upkeep with some features? Or ..... ? Bob can rationalize quite well. As do I and everyone else.

Here in Sedona, there's no local prop-tax. Council always wants to spend. People cry 'prop-tax'!! Council decries ... we didn't say prop-tax. Council gets voted out. People are not stupid (except where they disagree with DP).

I encourage folks' opinions. Like yours. It's often much of their earthly world (Bible study).

George Somsel

I get the impression that Logos Now is a program to give an early view of coming attractions in Logos. Is this wrong?

John W

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715805#Comment_715805

A bible study program that helps my walk and ministry so much; then to read these comments makes me feel sad.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715872#Comment_715872

George,

My understanding is that some of these features will be rolled into version 7, but probably not all of them. As Logos Now matures I believe more is going to be added to it, so that by the time version 7 comes out there will still be a compelling reason to stay subscribed past the version 7 roll out.

JohnB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715882#Comment_715882

My understanding is that some of these features will be rolled into version 7, but probably not all of them. As Logos Now matures I believe more is going to be added to it, so that by the time version 7 comes out there will still be a compelling reason to stay subscribed past the version 7 roll out.

???????????????????? I had assumed that all software bits that plugged into Logos 6 would be in Logos 7 and it would be things other than that which would only be for subscribers. I can see the logic of what you say though. I have a horrible feeling that Bob could not say "yes" or "no" to that at the present time as no decision has been made.

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715887#Comment_715887

You may be aware of this thread already. Bob has posted a number of times answering various questions to include his thinking on what would roll into the next desktop version. If you have not done so already, I recommend reading the thread.

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/103335.aspx

Lew Worthington

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715894#Comment_715894

Indeed, Bob has been quite energetic in sharing their thinking and their direction as far as he can share it at this time about the whole Logos Now idea. I applaud their daring in this business decision (though I am not jumping on board just yet) because they certainly knew it would raise some enthusiastic protests from many users.

How difficult such decisions must be for them. There are many things they do that are potentially good for their customers (loyal and otherwise) that nevertheless invoke some level of ire. And how hard it must be to walk that tightrope and still remain viable as a company.

I played a little mind game, wondering if, say 6 years ago, they would have offered customers access to their software and all available resources (everything they offer) for $100/month. I know I wouldn't have jumped on that deal because, well, that's a lot of money. But in retrospect, it would have been a great deal when weighed against what I currently own (a shadow of what's offered) and how much I have paid over the years for these resources. Not only are my decisions not always rational, but they are made based on a very unclear vision of my future use.

So, to reverse that scenario, I appreciate the difficulty in striking out in a new business direction realizing that their customers will also often make irrational decisions based on an unclear vision of future use. The nice thing about Logos Now for the customers is that they can just off the boat at any time.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715904#Comment_715904

I played a little mind game, wondering if, say 6 years ago, they would have offered customers access to their software and all available resources (everything they offer) for $100/month. I know I wouldn't have jumped on that deal because, well, that's a lot of money. But in retrospect, it would have been a great deal when weighed against what I currently own (a shadow of what's offered) and how much I have paid over the years for these resources. Not only are my decisions not always rational, but they are made based on a very unclear vision of my future use.

But you now OWN them and can access them even when not connected to the internet.

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715904#Comment_715904

I played a little mind game ....

I like to think of it as a mental exercise. It's a good thing to do once in a while.

[:)]

Lew Worthington

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715906#Comment_715906

But you now OWN them and can access them even when not connected to the internet.

Indeed, there is definitely a huge upside to the way things are now.

Lew Worthington

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715907#Comment_715907

I like to think of it as a mental exercise. It's a good thing to do once in a while.

Yeah, but I've gotta' get in shape. [:)]

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715845#Comment_715845

Whyndell, no intent to argue with you. But your line in the sand is a sandy line. Ownership. Folks think it's a yea/nea issue. But it's more sandy than that. Bob said he'll support ownership for the foreseeable future. Like Logos5? Or upkeep with some features? Or ..... ? Bob can rationalize quite well. As do I and everyone else.

Here in Sedona, there's no local prop-tax. Council always wants to spend. People cry 'prop-tax'!! Council decries ... we didn't say prop-tax. Council gets voted out. People are not stupid (except where they disagree with DP).

I encourage folks' opinions. Like yours. It's often much of their earthly world (Bible study).

Thanks Denise for your point.

Yes it is sandy- that's why for each one of us it will become a more solid line at some time- it each person will have to decide that. As for me if I never, ever bought another Logos book- I have a library that will help me and those the Lord puts in my path for long past my physical life- meaning I could leave it to another individual who could use it all their life and not buy another book.

I don't and neither does a congregation need very book that comes out, if all I had was the Scriptures- I could still reach the World for Christ, why? The power and direction of the Holy Spirit (He who actually does the work of salvation), not Faithlife, this does not discount the value of books or observations made by godly believers. PLEASE EVERYONE DO NOT START AN ARGUMENT ABOUT THIS STATEMENT ITS MY PERSONAL OPINION.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716104#Comment_716104

Whyndell, no intent to argue with you. But your line in the sand is a sandy line. Ownership. Folks think it's a yea/nea issue. But it's more sandy than that. Bob said he'll support ownership for the foreseeable future. Like Logos5? Or upkeep with some features? Or ..... ? Bob can rationalize quite well. As do I and everyone else.

Here in Sedona, there's no local prop-tax. Council always wants to spend. People cry 'prop-tax'!! Council decries ... we didn't say prop-tax. Council gets voted out. People are not stupid (except where they disagree with DP).

I encourage folks' opinions. Like yours. It's often much of their earthly world (Bible study).

Thanks Denise for your point.

Yes it is sandy- that's why for each one of us it will become a more solid line at some time- it each person will have to decide that. As for me if I never, ever bought another Logos book- I have a library that will help me and those the Lord puts in my path for long past my physical life- meaning I could leave it to another individual who could use it all their life and not buy another book.

I don't and neither does a congregation need very book that comes out, if all I had was the Scriptures- I could still reach the World for Christ, why? The power and direction of the Holy Spirit (He who actually does the work of salvation), not Faithlife, this does not discount the value of books or observations made by godly believers. PLEASE EVERYONE DO NOT START AN ARGUMENT ABOUT THIS STATEMENT ITS MY PERSONAL OPINION.

Agreed. Praise God for Faithlife, and Logos. But if they turned to zephyr tomorrow, then as a pastor I'd still be ok.

Disappointed - certainly - destitute? Not so long as there is a Holy Spirit.

Michael March

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716471#Comment_716471

Agreed. Praise God for Faithlife, and Logos. But if they turned to zephyr tomorrow, then as a pastor I'd still be ok.

Disappointed - certainly - destitute? Not so long as there is a Holy Spirit

YES! So grateful to Logos. BUT, life goes on with or without them. Amen! [Y]

Daniel Bender

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715882#Comment_715882

My understanding is that some of these features will be rolled into version 7, but probably not all of them. As Logos Now matures I believe more is going to be added to it, so that by the time version 7 comes out there will still be a compelling reason to stay subscribed past the version 7 roll out.

My belief as well; and I did subscribe to Logos Now for the time being.