Four Responses to Matthew Vines' 40 Questions

I have compiled responses from four noted Christian bloggers, James White, Douglas Wilson, Jared Wilson, and Michael Brown, to gay activist Matthew Vines' "40 Questions" post recently.

This was put together pretty quickly and may have some copy errors or formatting issues, but I thought some might want the resource sooner rather than later.

HTH.

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Whyndell Grizzard

Well there was never any doubt in my mind that Matthew Vines was Satan's tool spreading lies within the Church, and this only supported my evaluation of him- liar, deceiver and apparent unbeliever.

By the James White's responses outstanding- couple of the others pathetic.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748145#Comment_748145

By the James White's responses outstanding- couple of the others pathetic.

There is definitely a contrast, as the four are fairly different in theology as well as ecclesiology. That's one of the reasons I wanted to put them together for comparison. The differences can help us all think about our own responses to these kinds of questions.

FWIW- James White is Reformed Baptist, Douglas Wilson is CREC, Jared Wilson is Southern Baptist, and Michael Brown is a Jewish believer and noted charismatic spokesman.

James Taylor

I have compiled responses

Thank you so much for doing this Doc B. I absolutely LOVE Dr. Brown and Dr. White, and the Wilsons as well. This is great!

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748155#Comment_748155

Possible cover for your book.

-Dan

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748145#Comment_748145

Well there was never any doubt in my mind that Matthew Vines was Satan's tool spreading lies within the Church, and this only supported my evaluation of him- liar, deceiver and apparent unbeliever.

By the James White's responses outstanding- couple of the others pathetic.

I've read neither but Whyndell you've been around long enough to know this sort of wording in your post is inappropriate. You're smarter than that.

MJ. Smith

I have compiled responses from four noted Christian bloggers, James White, Douglas Wilson, Jared Wilson, and Michael Brown, to gay activist Matthew Vines' "40 Questions" post recently.

Thanks both for the file and the tone with which you provided it.

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748163#Comment_748163

Well there was never any doubt in my mind that Matthew Vines was Satan's tool spreading lies within the Church, and this only supported my evaluation of him- liar, deceiver and apparent unbeliever.

By the James White's responses outstanding- couple of the others pathetic.

I've read neither but Whyndell you've been around long enough to know this sort of wording in your post is inappropriate. You're smarter than that.

Yep- could be- but it is a very HONEST REVIEW of the posted article and the individual posing the questions.

If your offended or disagree can't help you there- I will NEVER BACK DOWN FROM THE ONGOING PROPAGANDA OF SATAN or his so-called angels of light.

James Taylor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748162#Comment_748162

cover for your book.

Thanks Dan!

Greg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748163#Comment_748163

I've read neither but Whyndell you've been around long enough to know this sort of wording in your post is inappropriate. You're smarter than that.

Well, if its good enough for Paul...

"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked person from among you.'"

MJ, I don't think your post count would be above 10,000 if we didn't count your finger-wagging posts.

[:#]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748173#Comment_748173

MJ, I don't think your post count would be above 10,000 if we didn't count your finger-wagging posts.

Perhaps not. But I, together with a number of others, have succeeded in changing the tone of the forums. We have not had people drop out of the forums because they believed their ministry to be incompatible with the vitriolic tone in the forums for several years. We have people willing to admit that they are Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, SDA, gay, evolutionists, or liberal which a couple of years ago were dangerous admissions. I prefer to believe that the few who still engage in inappropriate behavior are new members for whom a gentle pointer towards the guidelines will be sufficient or individuals who temporarily forgot what forum they were posting on. I believe that to be a more charitable position than assuming they are engaging in the sin of arrogance.[:P]

BTW you might wish to check your counting or calculations or I'll bring out the fallacy hound. [:D]

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748162#Comment_748162

Possible cover for your book.

-Dan

You are pretty good at that, Dan. Ever consider doing PB covers as a FT job? [:)]

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748164#Comment_748164

Thanks both for the file and the tone with which you provided it.

Trying to add to the conversation.

MJ, IIRC, you are RC. If you have a link to a good (is 'orthodox' the right word?) RC response, I'd love to add one to my document.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748173#Comment_748173

MJ, I don't think your post count would be above 10,000 if we didn't count your finger-wagging posts.

She keeps me in line. Usually, I deserve it. [:O]

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748203#Comment_748203

Possible cover for your book.

-Dan

You are pretty good at that, Dan. Ever consider doing PB covers as a FT job?

Nice work if you can get it [8-|]

-dan

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748205#Comment_748205

Hmmm, I don't think the popular press is quite what you want. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23489702

From the CCC:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,¹⁴¹ tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."¹⁴² They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (2333)

2358

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359

Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (2347)

III. The Love of Husband and Wife

2360

Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament. (1601)

2361

"Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."¹⁴³ (1643; 2332; 1611)

Tobias got out of bed and said to Sarah, "Sister, get up, and let us pray and implore our Lord that he grant us mercy and safety." So she got up, and they began to pray and implore that they might be kept safe. Tobias began by saying, "Blessed are you, O God of our fathers.… You made Adam, and for him you made his wife Eve as a helper and support.

... etc

Persona humana and On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, are probably the most detailed responses to your question.

Or as put practically after the recent vote on gay marriage ...

CATHOLIC CHURCHES in Ireland have said they would refuse to perform civil marriages as part of religious ceremonies if the constitution is changed to allow full civil marriage for same-sex couples – potentially forcing Catholic couples to have two separate wedding ceremonies.

The claim is in a submission made to the Constitutional Convention by the Irish Episcopal Conference, the group made up of the country’s Catholic bishops.

The submission says that the Catholic Church does not recognise “any other partnerships or legal unions as having an ethical or legal equivalence with marriage”, which the Church defines as being between a man and a woman.

“Any change to the definition of marriage would create great difficulties and in the light of this, if there were two totally different definitions of marriage, the Church could no longer carry out the civil element,” it says.

Move may mean couples need two wedding ceremonies

Because Irish law does not explicitly recognise religious weddings, and instead offers its own civil marriage, it instead gives religious bodies and their officials the ability to perform civil marriages, with powers similar to a State-employed civil registrar.

As a result, a civil marriage is usually performed in the same ceremony as a religious one. In Catholic weddings, the civil marriage register usually signed after the religious Mass has ended and before the newlyweds leave the chapel.

This means couples seeking a Catholic wedding, and who want their marriage to be recognised in law, only need to have one ceremony, despite having two separate marriages.

A directive from bishops to end this practice would mean that couples engaging in a traditional Catholic wedding ceremony would not legally be married – and would instead have to visit a registry office in order to have a legally recognised civil wedding performed.

“Changing the Constitutional definition of marriage to include same-sex unions would, over time, inevitably influence how society as a whole understands marriage,” the bishops’ submission says.

“Marriage would be reduced to an arrangement of the sexual relationship of any two people. It would cease to be the institution upon which the family, and therefore society itself, is founded.”

It wouldn't be the first country in which Catholics required to marriages (Belgium I think is in this situation but it might be the Netherlands).

Calvin Habig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748177#Comment_748177

MJ- I for one deeply appreciate the work that you and others have done to raise the civility of the forums. Online forums are usually something I avoid because of the hatred, vitriol and immature prejudice thrown around. I have appreciated that in the Logos forums it is fair game for all types of material related to spiritual matters (usually Christian, but not exclusively). I long ago heard the analogy that reading "Christian" material is like eating fish. Swallow the meat and spit out the bones and be nourished by the experience. If I objected to every piece of material put up here that I disagreed with, my "count" would be very high indeed. But I take what is good, ignore some obviously bad stuff and evaluate some others. I have deleted several PBs after reviewing them simply because they or their perspective didn't fit what I needed/wanted. Again, I appreciate you and all the other men (and women) of peace, (stretching a bit an allusion to Luke 10:6). My you be blessed and your tribe increase.

Greg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748177#Comment_748177

BTW you might wish to check your counting or calculations or I'll bring out the fallacy hound.

The hounds aren't too good at picking up the scent of hyperbole [H]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748221#Comment_748221

nah - hounds seem to be extreme literalists[;)]

Brad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748162#Comment_748162

Thank you, Doc and Dan.

Possible cover for your book.

-Dan

Dan could you add an "s" to the end of the word "Question" and re-post the image? It should be plural, right?

Thank you both, very much.

- Brad

James Taylor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748230#Comment_748230

It should be plural, right?

Good eye tiger. Maybe Dan was summarizing the issue under the one most basic question of matthew vines... can you be gay and Christian?

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748279#Comment_748279

It should be plural, right?

Good eye tiger. Maybe Dan was summarizing the issue under the one most basic question of matthew vines... can you be gay and Christian?

Just a typo.... no comment...

Here is version 2.0

-dan

James Taylor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748536#Comment_748536

Thanks for the new graphic Dan!

Brad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/748536#Comment_748536

Nice work, Dan!

Thank you for sharing this.

Anne H

I have compiled responses from four noted Christian bloggers, James White, Douglas Wilson, Jared Wilson, and Michael Brown, to gay activist Matthew Vines' "40 Questions" post recently.

This was put together pretty quickly and may have some copy errors or formatting issues, but I thought some might want the resource sooner rather than later.

HTH.

Thank you very much!