Personnel changes at Faithlife

MJ. Smith said:

"Some customers, especially pastors and those involved in ministry, can be extremely rude/condescending." That I can well believe, having seen it often enough right here. It was very disconcerting when I first started frequenting the forums but now it's just par for the course, which is sad.

Thank you for your reply Dan.

Stephen Terlizzi said:

JRS said:

From a human perspective it's a brutal assessment, yet, survival is priority no. 1 for any business.  And if significant revenues can be saved and used to boost the viability of a small company ... well, it is only a matter of time until even the most kind-hearted, Christian employer will be forced to switch from flesh and blood to bits and bytes.  We had to say goodbye to buggy whips, elevator operators, carbon paper, slide rules, paper telephone books, and so forth, too.  My guess is, for the foreseeable future, there will always be one or two, maybe a few, sales people standing by, ready to take your call.  However, like it or not, the world moves on.

I would agree if the Sales team are only order-takers; however, if they explain the products, facilitate the customer getting to a purchase decision, etc., then they add a value that is sometimes difficult to deliver with online sales alone. Unfortunately, I did not see much of that from my Logos sales encounters – maybe I had the wrong sales representatives. 

Nevertheless, just moving to online sales doesn't instantly generate sales. There needs to be an increase in marketing programs to attract, educate, and convince shoppers to buy. Faithlife's new 30 day training series is an good example – they are showing new resources through actual usage. I have already bought new resources because of this video series. Faithlife will need to continue to create these programs and that costs money, too.

Just my humble opinion.

Agape,

Steve

👍 It's time for FL to make changes. Please again remove the current method. Whatever sales you have make it online like Amazon. Thank you!

"Some customers, especially pastors and those involved in ministry, can be extremely rude/condescending." That I can well believe, having seen it often enough right here. It was very disconcerting when I first started frequenting the forums but now it's just par for the course, which is sad.

MJ,

"Pastors and those involved in ministry" are like any other people without the influencing power of the Word. Many people with holy titles have displayed very unholy behaviors far beyond being "rude/condescending." Vast sums of monies paid out and jailed clergymen in the "Freedom loving" USA, because too many have not been transformed (Romans 12:1-2) by the very Word (Bible) that they handled. Be not dismay, there is still hope for change and them. Let's pray that the Christians, working around or with the people mentioned above, will be "living" Epistles (2 Cor 3:2-6).

David Ames said:

Charles McNeil said:

Products will drive sales.  

BUT only if the customers know that they exist.  

Under the current model this cannot work... for millions of books to added millions upon millions of users have to pre order them before faithlife will even consider digitizing them. I have asked in the past if the concept of PrePub in someways might be a broken system. I look at the Paulist Press Classics of Western Spirituality Bundle (126 vols.) this set has new and good translations of  almost every significant spiritual classic. Everyone of these books should be available in FL library and I am positive at least half of them would be very big sellers. Trouble is this collection is so big and expensive and in no way available quickly to offer promise but cause people to go off and find it elsewhere. Obviously FL cannot simply release every book available, but at times I wonder if they might shoot themselves in the foot a bit by this system.

-Dan

SineNomine said:

Significantly smaller parts of that collection are also available on Pre-Pub, and none of them are doing too well.

Very true and perhaps i perhaps value these spiritual masters more than most. I just think it is ashame that most of the works i want to buy in Logos are not yet available.

-Dan

PS:I say that now but at the same time I could not afford the package if it was released soon...

David Carter said:

They could remove an obvious bullet if only they could come to an agreement with Moody. I'm sure there would be a significant level of sales if and when they did.

From my understanding it was such an acrimonious break I wouldn't expect it anytime soon...

-Dan

MJ. Smith said:

Bruce Dunning said:

That's an interesting thought. It makes me wonder what percentage of Logos uses are forum users.

Forum Activity: 186,437 users have contributed to 101,098 threads and 769,461 posts.

IIRC a couple of years or more ago we were told there were > 1 million users.

My case may be unusual, but I likely have half a dozen forgotten former ID's as I sniffed at Logos on and off for quite a few years before the hook finally set.     

With great respect and concern for those laid off, positive changes often comes when we are motivated by events such as layoffs.  That has happened to me, anyway.  God is in control and will take care of His children.  

To be candid, my personal experience with sales was never positive.  I only used sales assistance a few times and my experiences were like this:

1. Just got an ordinary deal, same as online. No benefit.

2. I got misleading help from a person who knew less than I did about a some products and insisted they were right.  Details aside, they were quite wrong, which was verified after I made the purchase on my own without so much "help."  

3. I was offered a good deal--better than online. My sales person for reasons perhaps related or unrelated was let go before the sales was even completed.  Another person came alone and tried to undo the deal. I dug my heels in a bit since the salesman's offer was already committed by email. l got the deal I was offered but never felt good about it for myself or Logos or the salesperson.

4. Excessive pressure and sort of mustard yellow plaid panted used car sales feel techniques.  I wanted advice on putting together overlapping resource packages, figuring out actual prices, not all that other hype and nonsense.  (I canceled the sale in 2 cases and figured out on my own).

All my experiences fit those categories.  Of course not only phone sales staff were laid off. Yet, as wonderful as some of the sales staff were, maybe everyone would have a better experience with some changes.  I will likely not bother with sales staff any time soon, but stick with my own figures online.  Maybe someone can offer better experiences.  I am grateful for the great reviews of some former staff.  

I have a lot of confidence in Logos, appreciate Bob's statements and don't feel the worries some express.  

Peace.

SineNomine said:

Significantly smaller parts of that collection are also available on Pre-Pub, and none of them are doing too well.

Is it possible for us to discuss this collection elsewhere finding it possibly that it lacks quality, to explain why it's not doing well?

Charles McNeil said:

SineNomine said:

Significantly smaller parts of that collection are also available on Pre-Pub, and none of them are doing too well.

Is it possible for us to discuss this collection elsewhere....

Yes.

Tony Thomas said:

And they really need to improve and expand the functionality of Biblia (web) for their primary user base.

They are doing so. Biblia.com remains a place to access books and read the Bible for free. However app.logos.com will be where additional functionality is to be found. They already have some interactives, various guides from the desktop, the atlas, etc. there. To access the beta version, you must have a Logos Now or Logos Cloud subscription. 

Dan Francis said:

Joseph said:

Tony Thomas said:

And they really need to improve and expand the functionality of Biblia (web) for their primary user base.

They are doing so. Biblia.com remains a place to access books and read the Bible for free. However app.logos.com will be where additional functionality is to be found. They already have some interactives, various guides from the desktop, the atlas, etc. there. To access the beta version, you must have a Logos Now or Logos Cloud subscription. 

At the risk of jumping into another rabbit hole and moving this thread off topic again.... There is a small hope that the web app may be released to a no subscribing public. Part of the NOW model is to develop things, some items like new features that are very data intensive will likely always remain inside the NOW model... Other things like RSV OT interlinear I would expect to find it's way into Verbum 7.0 Libraries/Logos 7.0 Libraries. The WEB APP is something I am not sure if it has been decided yet if it will always be subscription only or once finished will be made available to all users. There is no doubt it is sever intensive being done completely on FL servers, but then most all the heavy lifting of the mobile APPS are using the same servers to get their results. This is the one thing that gives me hope that this one day may replace Biblica and be the natural web access for all FL customers. But as said above as far as I have heard no decision has yet to be made on it, but until it is fully fleshed out and functioning it will remain within the NOW model I am sure.

-Dan

Only a customer since Logos 4.  Anyway I am a civilian user (not clergy, teacher, preacher, etc) and have the software for my own enjoyment.  I have not spent thousands but it might be a little over a thousand over time.  Regardless, I trust Bob and company not to leave me high and dry.  I do wish them the best of luck and reading all of this makes we want to go find something I want to buy even if it is not in the thousands of dollars category.

Bob Pritchett said:

You're going to be fine, and we're going to be here to support you. 

To Bob, The Laid-off workers, and Logos users,

Charles McNeil said:

One unknown source gives a breakdown of what the average person worries about:  

This sounds like Dale Carnegie from How to Stop Worrying and Start Living.

Nathan Parker said:

Due to the server issues that happened tonight, I wonder if anyone in the "server management department" was on the list. :-)

It might have something to do with this: http://www.zdnet.com/article/serious-security-flaw-found-in-openssh-puts-private-keys-at-risk/

Charles McNeil said:

If you are sure of the source, I will pass it on to the compiler who sent it to me. Regardless, the principle message remains.

I can not check my paper copy to be sure because I can no longer read the printed page due to visual impairment. I agree the principle is true.

Mark Barnes said:

Faithlife don't use OpenSSL - they're on a Windows stack. 

Does this have anything to do with "personnel changes at Faithlife?" 

However, is there any truth to the content of this website? https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Faithlife-RVW9169552.htm

I tried to respond to the individual directly, but unable to do so.  If this site is so, or partially true, we have been misled. I am not worried, but I am concern about those laid off (frequency and treatment of workers). I am the let Bob, be Bob person. However, this in no way I endorse  him or anyone to exercise unchristian behaviors or create a hostile work environment.

Who is James G. Fowler? He claims to present "another perspective of the recent lay-offs"   I don't want to be the source of fear mongering, but have we been sold a "bill of goods" on the laidoffs?  

Charles McNeil said:

However, is there any truth to the content of this website? https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Faithlife-RVW9169552.htm

I tried to respond to the individual directly, but unable to do so.  If this site is so, or partially true, we have been misled. I am not worried, but I am concern about those laid off (frequency and treatment of workers). I am the let Bob, be Bob person. However, this in no way I endorse  him or anyone to exercise unchristian behaviors or create a hostile work environment.

Bob will probably respond on Glassdoor fairly soon. He normally does. He's probably waiting for the dust to settle a little.

A great company doesn't become a terrible company overnight. As I understand it, two major decisions have been made in recent months — the first to dramatically downsize the Verbum department, and the second to dramatically downsize the marketing/sales department.

With regard to the former, whilst the Catholic focus has been very much appreciated by many, it's taken a massive marketing push to get where it has, and it's still less popular that Logos Reformed and Logos Baptist, which don't have their own branding, blog, videos, training materials, etc. It looks like Faithlife may have taken the view that whilst they want their Catholic market to continue to grow, a massive marketing push is not the way to achieve that.

With regard to the latter, the majority of complaints about Faithlife over the years on the forums have been to do with marketing — over-promising and under-delivering, or simply poor communication. Plus, the 'salesman' model is surely dead in 2015, isn't it? So we shouldn't be surprised that there have been big job cuts in sales, and we shouldn't be surprised that people leaving the marketing department are generally negative (sometimes very negative). Most of us have been negative about the marketing department at some point.

You can take this one of two ways.

On the one hand, you can conclude the company is in crisis, and disaster is around the corner. On the other hand you can applaud  the company for finally attempting to fix a long-standing problem. Probably the truth is somewhere in between, although I'm inclined to believe it's nearer the latter than the former.

I hope that Bob and others will be taking the opportunity to ask, "How did we get here?", and the lessons learned through that should serve the company well into the future. The need for better HR oversight and more honest marketing/sales seem to be two recurring themes. But there are other things too, no doubt.

Charles McNeil said:

is there any truth to the content of this website?

Charles,

I have tried to avoid even posting a emoji on this thread, but I'll jump in here.

First, everyone who is a regular on the forums knows I'm not a Faithlife Fanboy. I have been critical of FL where I thought it was warranted (and perhaps overly so on a few occasions). I quit playing the trumpet 30 years ago, so I'm not about to jump on any bandwagons.

But as a manager of people, I'm going to have to come to FL's defense on this one (particularly Bob's, even though I'm sure he doesn't need my help). Without going into a treatise, let me simply say that if you manage anyone or anything and don't tick somebody off, you aren't doing your job. If you do your job well, you will really make someone mad, and if you do your job exceptionally well, you'll piss someone off royally (pardon my French) [6].

That's to say this: Take everything you see posted on a review site with a grain of salt, if not a teaspoon full. (Yes, that'll make you throw up, which is a fair response to much of what is posted on review sites.) We don't know the whole story. Remember the proverb about one man's story seeming right until the other side is heard? That proverb was written with managers in mind. Yes, there are bad managers and there are good managers that make bad decisions. But in 20-something years of managing, I can't recall ever seeing one of these types of accusations that didn't fall apart when more of the story was revealed. Remember, patience is a fruit of the Spirit. I have yet to find a translation where jumping to conclusions is listed as a fruit. (Truth be told: the way I've learned to be patient on these issues is by jumping to conclusions and then losing a chunk of my behind as a result. I may gain weight as I age, but I'll never have a big butt.  Too much of it has been bitten off over the years. [:P] )

Hope this helps. I appreciate your concern for folks, or I wouldn't have bothered to write this.

Charles McNeil said:

However, is there any truth to the content of this website? https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Faithlife-RVW9169552.htm

I tried to respond to the individual directly, but unable to do so.  If this site is so, or partially true, we have been misled. I am not worried, but I am concern about those laid off (frequency and treatment of workers). I am the let Bob, be Bob person. However, this in no way I endorse  him or anyone to exercise unchristian behaviors or create a hostile work environment.

Who is James G. Fowler? He claims to present "another perspective of the recent lay-offs"   I don't want to be the source of fear mongering, but have we been sold a "bill of goods" on the laidoffs?  

There are 2 sides to every story... I feel it is important to hear the people at the glass door but we are only herring their experience and it very well might be only a partial truth (their truth fully as it is known but does't take FL side into account. Is FL a perfect place to work.. probably not, is Bob doing his best to make it better, I would hope so. I have heard rumours outside of the forums from former employees but do not repeat them here. I hope we have not been sold a "bill of goods", time will tell... I wish noting but the best for all the employees who have been let go from FL in the past few months.

-Dan

alabama24 said:

Paul Lee said:

Contrast Logos with YouVersion for example.

I like both Logos and YouVersion, but don't confuse a business with a church (YouVersion).

How is YouVersion a church?

Just scanning through all these posts, am I getting it correct that just sales people are laid off or does this include people who are working on the technical side of things.

I for one am a bit nervous, having seen Biblesoft go through a similar (or not so similar path) suddenly & with a lot of hints that it would go down the tubes. 

I've mentioned this before so suffer the repetition, but things that should have been addressed a year or go or more are still in limbo. Thus my question regarding the techies - have they been reduced in number also? Unfortunately, I saw this trend with Biblesoft, e.g. things which were being promised / suddenly people leaving or laid off and now we know, the rest of the story!!!  

Again, pardon my ignorance, but if things were ever to go pads up at Logos, or is it now just Faithlife, does this mean what I presently have purchased / the program itself, is not going to work at all or as well?

I'm not nervous at all ... just thinking of doing a few laps around Tim Hortons!?!