Shepherd's Notes (Ecclesiastes/Song of Solomon) Issue

I purchased this volume today and noticed a problem that extends throughout the entire book. The Bible verses used in the headings (and the generic number listings like "verse x") show verses from Genesis (in the pop-up) rather than from the appropriate book.

I realize there are often conversion/quality control issues with Vyrso books but this is a problem, especially since the Vyrso marketing material on the website ("About" page) touts the ease of accessing Bible references in the work itself.

Any chance this can get updated at some point?

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Paul

I purchased this some time ago. After reading your note I checked my copy and found the same problem.

In my copy of the book, the links to Genesis instead of Ecclesiastes begin from a place in the text that mentions Genesis 3 and then continues through the book. This must be occurring because after the Genesis 3 reference the text does not mention the name of the biblical book (Ecclesiastes) but only cites a reference (e.g., 1.11 instead of Ecclesiastes 1:11). I'm guessing that whatever automatic system is being used makes links according to the last Bible book named in the main text.

Lets hope that Faithlife will be able to update this soon. Keep well Paul

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/804264#Comment_804264

Be sure to report one (preferably the first one) as a typo through the right click mechanism and note that it is systemic. That insures that it is in the error reporting system whether or not anyone reads this and adds it. Mind you it is worth mentioning here as well when it is systemic.

JT (alabama24)

Can you give a screen shot?

Robert M. Warren

Ken:

I think this might be a record: you reported a Vyrso quality problem a full 1 1/2 hours ago and no one has yet chimed in with the standard litany about not expecting too much in the way of quality from Vyrso. Maybe a new attitude is afoot.

I hope you get the errors fixed.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/804264#Comment_804264

This must be occurring because after the Genesis 3 reference the text does not mention the name of the biblical book (Ecclesiastes) but only cites a reference (e.g., 1.11 instead of Ecclesiastes 1:11). I'm guessing that whatever automatic system is being used makes links according to the last Bible book named in the main text.

Ah. Just caught that. Yes, that is the problem. It would be great if they fixed it... but I wouldnt hold your breath. [:s]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/804278#Comment_804278

Maybe a new attitude is afoot.

Nope. [:)] Congrats on your 1000th post, by the way. [Y]

Robert M. Warren

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/804280#Comment_804280

Congrats on your 1000th post, by the way.

Ha! Thanks; I didn't notice.

Simon’s Brother

Good luck on getting this fixed. It happens all the time in Vyrso books and leader of this company has personally said of these forums this sort of thing is acceptable with Vyrso books because no tagging work is done on them and refuses to do any work to fix these up.. He seems to be able to sleep well at night even though the advertising on the the Vyrso website is extremely misleading in terms of being able to look up bible verses from Vyrso books.

Ken Hicks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/805718#Comment_805718

Yeah. I have lurked on these forums for years so I am aware of the general stance towards Vyrso. I just posted in the hopes that someone might see it and take the initiative to fix it. Just wishful thinking on my part.

Something that has always bothered me is the "low-cost" argument for these books in order to excuse their often poor quality control (automated conversion). Yes they are low-cost when they are on sale (like in this instance) but some Vyrso books can run over $10. Should we expect the same low quality from that eBook as we would any other Vyrso offering? If so, is that worth $10+. It's up for the individual to decide. However, if I paid full price for this I would be a little upset.

I spent almost 20 years in design before I started preaching, and if I adopted the same attitude towards my print jobs as Vyrso has towards their eBooks, then it would have been a much shorter career. [:D]

I am grateful for the freebies and cheap offerings. However, I would prefer that Vyrso just went away altogether because I think it shines a poor light on the usually high quality of work put out by Faithlife in general... but that's just my opinion.

Ken

Ken Hicks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/805765#Comment_805765

My last post is no reflection on Erin who appears to offer excellent customer service on these forums.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/805718#Comment_805718

It happens all the time in Vyrso books and leader of this company has personally said of these forums this sort of thing is acceptable with Vyrso books because no tagging work is done on them and refuses to do any work to fix these up.. He seems to be able to sleep well at night even though the advertising on the the Vyrso website is extremely misleading in terms of being able to look up bible verses from Vyrso books.

Come on let's play fair.It is, or should be, common knowledge that Vyrso books are primarily the responsibility of the publisher. If the publisher knows they are going to request that it be run through a conversion program - whether Kindle, Nook, Vyrso .. - the publisher's standard should mesh with the requirements of the conversion program. A few publishers don't want to be bothered - resulting in trashy layouts in some Kindle books I have purchased as well as trashy layouts and screwed up links in Vyrso.

Of course, in this era there are a few publishers who do little editing or formatting of what the author gives them electronically ... and with the number of on-demand self publishing firms allow you to create your own press name, it is becoming harder and harder to be familiar enough with presses as to know what to expect.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/805776#Comment_805776

Come on let's play fair.It is, or should be, common knowledge that Vyrso books are primarily the responsibility of the publisher. If the publisher knows they are going to request that it be run through a conversion program - whether Kindle, Nook, Vyrso .. - the publisher's standard should mesh with the requirements of the conversion program. A few publishers don't want to be bothered - resulting in trashy layouts in some Kindle books I have purchased as well as trashy layouts and screwed up links in Vyrso.

MJ this is not a publisher issue, this is not a complaint about the trashy layouts, typographical errors etc. This issue is not about the publisher at all.

The only way the publisher could fix this is to rewrite the books so that each bible verse was spelled out in full so that that the references converted properly. I dont' believe they should have to do that and I am not asking for that because they don't do that for any other retailer. It is not the publisher that is making false claims. The publishers in no way promise you can look up bible references in their Vryso published books. It is Vyrso making this claim and making it knowing that they can never actually fulfill the claim because they include tagging in the minimal processing of the files's they do. This is not even a complaint about the fact they do minimal processing of the file. That is the chosen business model. This issue is they make claims about the features and benefits of the product that require tagging beyond the chose business model in order to be able to truthfully make that claim. We are not talking about a one off error here of their due to an issue with the publishers file. We are talking about whole books that simply do not live up to the below claims.

You are the one being unfair MJ on this occasion - unfair to the publishers for laying the blame on to them for a claim they don't make about the Vryso product. It is the Faithlife team, that chose the business model, chose the level of tagging to be applied to these resources and knowingly make these claims despite their own admission that they can't actually meet them because they don't apply the required level of tagging on Vyrso resources for these claims to be true.

I am also quiet shocked that you as the self-appointed gate keeper of all things logic would try and argue it's ok that a false claim is made about the features and benefits of the product because of common knowledge. Common knowledge, whose common knowledge, is it common knowledge to potential and new customers of Vyrso, who don't use Logos ? Is it even common knowledge to all Logos / Vryso users that there is two different file formats that result in a different quality of tagging? There are many more users beyond those of us who frequent the forums regularly who never use these forums or have only done so when they have an installation question and then may never come back till the next time they have a question about moving to a new computer, or about a recent purchase they have made but the book has not download. Saying "it's common knowledge" is like saying "they tell us". Who are they? Who has this common knowledge ?

Faithlife are making a claim that these 'ebooks enriched'. They are not enriched it is simply hit and miss depending up on how the author/editor chose to present bible references in their writing as to whether or not "With a simple touch, Vyrso shows you the Bible passages that your ebooks reference." is actually true or not. This publisher is not responsible for this misleading claim. The leadership of faithlife are responsible for allowing it to be made and to continue to being made. And they omit to spell out clearly on their website the limitations of the Vryso file format when they state "Vyrso connects your personal reading material with the power of Logos Bible Software, integrating all your Bible study materials with your Christian book collection"

Faithlife is trying to set apart the Vyrso platform from other eBook platforms but in doing so they have are not being open and honest upfront about the limitations of the file format. Instead they have chosen to make claims they can not meet.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/806335#Comment_806335

The only way the publisher could fix this is to rewrite the books so that each bible verse was spelled out in full so that that the references converted properly.

False premise. It is "standard" in Biblical studies and theology to restate the book name/abbreviation whenever it changes ... just like changes force one to be more explicit than op. cit. or ibid. The algorithm would work correctly if this common standard were followed. I stand by my position until you can show me that my understanding of common/standard practice is ill-informed.

I am also quiet shocked that you as the self-appointed gate keeper of all things logic

I may frequently be wrong but my logic is usually impeccable; errors are usually in premises. After all I had a father and elder brother drilling my logic as soon as I could speak. [:O]

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/806338#Comment_806338

The only way the publisher could fix this is to rewrite the books so that each bible verse was spelled out in full so that that the references converted properly.

False premise. It is "standard" in Biblical studies and theology to restate the book name/abbreviation whenever it changes ... just like changes force one to be more explicit than op. cit. or ibid. The algorithm would work correctly if this common standard were followed. I stand by my position until you can show me that my understanding of common/standard practice is ill-informed.

I am also quiet shocked that you as the self-appointed gate keeper of all things logic

I may frequently be wrong but my logic is usually impeccable; errors are usually in premises. After all I had a father and elder brother drilling my logic as soon as I could speak.

MJ you are continuing to avoid the real issue and trying to blame the publisher's for the false claims being made by Faithlife. The majority of mass market 'christian' books I have read don't adhere to the academic standard of publishing that you are suggesting that they should. Whether or not they should is another topic which is not at issue in this discussion.

The issue here is the actions of Faithlife that are in their control. Faithlife have chosen to accept the files provided to them by the publishers, Faithlife have chosen to convert those files as provided by the publishers using the method that they have decided is the correct approach for the Vyrso business model. Faithlife have chosen to market these books per below and give a misleading representation of the features and benefits that faithlife adds to the publishers files. This is all down to Faithlife.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/806479#Comment_806479

blame the publisher's for the false claims being made by Faithlife

Okay, would you care to show that Faithlife knew or shown have known that the publisher of Shepherd's Notes would send them files with references that did not meet industry standards / common public expectations? I suspect that legally that is the first step in establishing a "false claims" case.

After you have proven that, would you then provide statistical evidence that the Vyrso error rate is significantly outside the industry standard for successful natural language processing tagging?

If you can provide satisfactory evidence on both counts, I will gladly admit that I am wrong. Otherwise, I will continue to believe that you are trying to use an abnormal case as the basis of a general rule.

you as the self-appointed gate keeper of all things logic

Sorry if it comes off that way but as a lover of logic in a forum filled with members disinterested in the subject, references to fallacies as opposed to the equally rare but present name-calling is bound to stand out. I chose a hound as an icon rather than specifically embarrassing people by making their (foolish) error public ... much like a TA I knew who would simply draw a shovel in the margin of a paper when a student was trying to ..... him.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/806503#Comment_806503

1. All logic aside [H], I think what people may want is a book that reaches within the realm of their general expectations of Faithlife quality (which may be changing), and performs more or less as Vyrso advertises.

2. Even more logic aside, when we buy something at a steep discount, maybe we should sort of expect that quality might not be the same as the very expensive version.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/806514#Comment_806514

I agree - reasonable responses include:

refusing to purchase the products, perhaps any products of the publisher until they improve their standards
writing the publisher to insure they know their standards create problems
post reviews that warn other users of the problems with the products
contact Faithlife to ask them to provide special processing for the products
ask Faithlife to remove the products until publishers provide better sources files ...

I agree that we, as customers, shouldn't be satisfied with an unsatisfactory product.

Well, okay, I'll admit I was satisfied with a lamp with an electrical plug that was incompatible with US wiring ... but there were extenuating circumstances, honest.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/806503#Comment_806503

blame the publisher's for the false claims being made by Faithlife

Okay, would you care to show that Faithlife knew or shown have known that the publisher of Shepherd's Notes would send them files with references that did not meet industry standards / common public expectations? I suspect that legally that is the first step in establishing a "false claims" case.

After you have proven that, would you then provide statistical evidence that the Vyrso error rate is significantly outside the industry standard for successful natural language processing tagging?

If you can provide satisfactory evidence on both counts, I will gladly admit that I am wrong. Otherwise, I will continue to believe that you are trying to use an abnormal case as the basis of a general rule.

you as the self-appointed gate keeper of all things logic

Sorry if it comes off that way but as a lover of logic in a forum filled with members disinterested in the subject, references to fallacies as opposed to the equally rare but present name-calling is bound to stand out. I chose a hound as an icon rather than specifically embarrassing people by making their (foolish) error public ... much like a TA I knew who would simply draw a shovel in the margin of a paper when a student was trying to ..... him.

MJ once again you are trying to make this about a publishers I am not talking about a publishers actions I am talking about Faithlifes Acton and decisions that are in their control when it comes to markeing the features and benefits of the Vyrso product as it applies to all ebooks they produce and not the specific files provided to Faithlife by B&H for this particular book in the Shepherd's Notes series.

MJ the only thing you are achieving here is showing everyone how full of pride you are in your own abilities. And the really sad part is I have seen it time again on these forums that you love to display that pride by walking all over less educated people than yourself simply because what is important to them as paying customers is not important to you. Personally I did not feel the email sent out by Logos recently about pre-pubs warranted them been torn down in the way you recently did on the forums, but I did not knock you for expressing your personal opinion because it was important to you. It's time you got too started showing other customers that same respect.

You have said nothing to convince me I am wrong in what I am calling out and I will continue to hold that conviction until either

a) Faithlife changes the advertising - which is all I am asking.

b) Faithlife starts tagging Vyrso books to the standard they claim - I have no expectation of that ever happening as that is not the Vyrso business model

c) I die - the only certainty out of the three solutions.

So if you want to continue to fuel the fire of your self-pride please feel free to have another shot - you won't change my convictions on this topic.

Let me finish by saying despite the negative things I have said here you do make many helpful contributions to these forums which I really appreciate.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/806555#Comment_806555

MJ once again you are trying to make this about a publishers I am not talking about a publishers actions I am talking about Faithlifes

Or as I would put it: doc once again you are trying to make this about the consequences (Vyrso quality), I am talking about the causes (publisher's electronic feed).

I agree with that, but that's the responsibility of the publisher, not Vyrso.

Naturally, if Vyrso is marketed as bargain-basement stuff, that would be okay. But Vyrso is not marketed as such. Anyway, do customers really care whose "responsibility" and whose "fault" it is when there are loads of really basic errors? Are they likely to be satisfied with something like "the Kindle version has the same errors" or "the Nook version has the same errors"?

Depending on the marketing and pricing, maybe. Or maybe not.

I'm not satisfied with errors in either Vyrso or Kindle, but I don't hold Logos responsible. I wish the publishers had a higher view of ebooks and took more care with them. If Logos did their own editorial pass on Vyrso books, they would be much more expensive and wouldn't compete pricewise with Kindle. That's why Logos and Vyrso are separate brands. One for quality and one for bulk. Can you imagine the manpower required to proofread the 12,000 books added to Vyrso in the past 2 years? Logos would either have to hire many more editors or else slow down the output to a trickle.