RAM Disk with Logos 6

I will soon by upgrading my RAM from 8GB to 16GB and am considering experimenting with using some of that extra capacity to make a RAM disk that will be 4GB in size. I have searched the Logos forums and found several older threads referencing RAM disks with Logos 3, 4, and 5, but none dealing with 6. For those of you who have tried a RAM disk, what specifically have you done to get the best performance with Logos 6?

For reference I am currently running Windows 10 Professional. I have my OS installed on a Samsung 830 60GB SSD. Several programs (including Logos, unfortunately) and my data files are stored on a 5400 RPM HDD. I am already well aware that Logos would run better on a 7200 RPM HDD and even better on an SDD. I plan on getting a larger SSD at some point, but for the time being I am just trying to see what if anything I can accomplish with a RAM disk. I already know that I should change the TEMP and TMP environmental variables in Windows to point to the RAM disk, though as far as I know that will not specifically help Logos 6. Any other suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!

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Mark Smith

Matthew, I am wondering what is motivating you to add 8GB more RAM in the first place? I realize RAM is pretty cheap, but just adding more RAM to your system is unlikely to help system speed once you get past 6-8 GB in my experience.

As to a RAM drive, I had one back in the small MB RAM era, but have not had one since. I cannot think of a way one would help you with Logos.

David J. Wilson

These links may help answer your questions:

http://www.radeonramdisk.com/support_faqs_products.php

http://www.radeonramdisk.com/software_downloads.php

You might be able to play around with their freeware version given your max RAMDisk size is to be 4GB.

To quote from the link:

Is this the right product for me?
RAMDisk is the right product for you if you have a disk I/O bound application that is small enough to fit in main memory.
RAMDisk is also great for storing frequently accessed data such as temp files, page files and database index files, and is great for accelerating online gaming.

Myself I went for a second SSD dedicated to Logos, that seems to be the route preferred by most. [:)]

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

Logos 6 uses a technique called "memory-mapped file I/O" whenever possible. In simplified terms, this provides a hint to the OS to use as much memory as possible to cache the files that Logos opens. (In fact, it can even use a bit too much memory, so we scaled it back in one particular area: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/104869.aspx.) This effectively creates an on-demand RAM disk for the files Logos is actively using, but without permanently taking memory away from other applications (the way a RAM disk would). It also frees you from having to decide in advance what files to put on the RAM disk, how big it should be, etc.

I would advise not creating a RAM disk, but simply let Windows use all your RAM for file caching.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807764#Comment_807764

I realize RAM is pretty cheap, but just adding more RAM to your system is unlikely to help system speed once you get past 6-8 GB in my experience.

I think if you had had 16GB of RAM you wouldn't have had this problem... https://community.logos.com/forums/t/104869.aspx [;)]

In my experience, adding more RAM is good, because it will allow Windows to cache recently-accessed files (for all applications on the system) and will improve performance. Obviously this depends on the volume of data you typically access. For web browsing or document editing, having more than 1-2GB free may not make a difference. For scientific applications or Logos 6 searching, having 4-12GB "free" RAM should provide a noticeable performance increase after the first search (which loads the data from disk into RAM).

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807764#Comment_807764

I am wondering what is motivating you to add 8GB more RAM in the first place?

Good question! I am adding more (1) for running operating systems in virtual machines and a few other memory-intensive tasks, (2) by the end of the year I will likely be getting a larger Samsung SSD and plan on taking advantage of "Rapid Mode," which by itself can use up to 4 GB of RAM now (it used to be limited to 1 GB), and (3) because I am getting a good deal on some RAM that matches the modules I already have installed.

just adding more RAM to your system is unlikely to help system speed once you get past 6-8 GB in my experience.

Agreed. In many cases simply adding large amounts of extra RAM yields diminishing returns. However, as a storage medium, even though it is volatile, RAM is significantly faster than any SSD (or at least any SATA SSD). It has much higher read and write speeds, something that both RAM disks and Samsung's "Rapid Mode" take advantage of.

I cannot think of a way one would help you with Logos.

Here is one of the older threads I found where this was being discussed. It has a few examples of what kinds of performance gains might be expected.

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/28816.aspx

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807776#Comment_807776

These links may help answer your questions:
http://www.radeonramdisk.com/support_faqs_products.php

http://www.radeonramdisk.com/software_downloads.php

I actually downloaded and installed that earlier today!

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807778#Comment_807778

Logos 6 uses a technique called "memory-mapped file I/O" whenever possible. In simplified terms, this provides a hint to the OS to use as much memory as possible to cache the files that Logos opens. (In fact, it can even use a bit too much memory, so we scaled it back in one particular area: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/104869.aspx.) This effectively creates an on-demand RAM disk for the files Logos is actively using, but without permanently taking memory away from other applications (the way a RAM disk would). It also frees you from having to decide in advance what files to put on the RAM disk, how big it should be, etc.
I would advise not creating a RAM disk, but simply let Windows use all your RAM for file caching.

All good information to know, especially the last part. I am not planning on using a RAM disk forever and am not even specifically making it with Logos in mind. Part of me just wants to familiarize myself with how all RAM disks can be utilized and what level of real-world benefit they can bring to the table (while also keeping their limitations and risks in mind!).

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807781#Comment_807781

I realize RAM is pretty cheap, but just adding more RAM to your system is unlikely to help system speed once you get past 6-8 GB in my experience.

I think if you had had 16GB of RAM you wouldn't have had this problem... https://community.logos.com/forums/t/104869.aspx

In my experience, adding more RAM is good, because it will allow Windows to cache recently-accessed files (for all applications on the system) and will improve performance. Obviously this depends on the volume of data you typically access. For web browsing or document editing, having more than 1-2GB free may not make a difference. For scientific applications or Logos 6 searching, having 4-12GB "free" RAM should provide a noticeable performance increase after the first search (which loads the data from disk into RAM).

Likewise, if Logos hadn't been stealthily trying to get all of us to upgrade to 16 GB of RAM I'd never have had that problem.

My observation, doing a bit of resource monitoring, is that, with the exception of the 'runaway' RAM issue I had with Logos, I never use all the 8 GB of RAM I have, even using Photoshop. Normally I seem to have about 4 GB 'free' most of the time, which Logos can use for caching.

One will see an improvement in Logos when going from 4-8 GB of RAM. I learned that back in L4 days.

So, I doubt adding 8 GB of RAM to the OP's computer is going to do much at all that is noticeable. Moving to a 7200 RPM drive would, which, unfortunately, he says he cannot afford right now.

Having said that, I probably will get my next computer outfitted with 12-16 GB of RAM. I also hope to have at least a 512GB SSD on which Logos will comfortably reside. I doubt, however, that will be happening anytime soon.

JAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807790#Comment_807790

So, I doubt adding 8 GB of RAM to the OP's computer is going to do much at all that is noticeable. Moving to a 7200 RPM drive would, which, unfortunately, he says he cannot afford right now.

Regarding RAM:

Installing a higher performance RAM makes a significant difference.
I am not sure if 16GiB will provide great benefit to Logos over 8GiB.

Regarding other storage:

It has been my experience that the difference between various HDD and SDD options is not dramatic apart from during indexing.

Regarding improving performance for Logos:

I have found that having a discrete GPU with stable drivers is beneficial.
If Logos performance and reliability are a priority avoid extraneous software and hardware.
Maintenance matters, when and how do you malware/virus scan, install updates, defrag, backup, system image, etcetera?

Bradley gave sound advice with a clear rational. If you still want to experiment I would suggest trying RAM caching for your HDD/SDD. The OP has Samsung 830 which I think includes a license for Samsung RAPID caching software. Romex Software (https://www.romexsoftware.com/en-us/index.html) offers fully functional trial installation for both RAM caching and RAM disk software. Several use cases are explained at the website.

The following post from another thread seems pertinent - Logos is too slow:

5400 has often been suggested as the cause of slow Logos operation

Hardware advances over the last few years have superseded that old axiom! 5400 will always be slower than 7200 and 10000 RPM disks but data density increases have improved access speeds to the extent that a well-maintained* 1 TB, 5400 RPM, 2.5 inch drive isn't slowing Logos when coupled with a decent multi-core CPU (e.g. Core i7-5500U**), dedicated graphics, 8 GB or more memory and a decent mainboard. That's my system! Under Windows 10, Logos opens in 20s.

* defrag regularly and don't let free space drop below 25% (I usually have over 40% free).

** a low power, two-core i7 with 4 threads @ 2.4 - 3.0 GHz

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/123516/807466.aspx#807466

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807814#Comment_807814

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the input and recommendations. I think it is safe to say that my original question has been answered. For the short term I will be:

1. Letting Windows manage all aspects of Logos as usual.

2. Using a RAM disk for Windows' TEMP and TMP environmental variables as well as for my web browser.

In the long term I hope to be:

1. Buying a newer/bigger SSD when prices have gotten a little bit lower.

2. Using the SSD's "Rapid Mode" to see what impact that has on Logos.

3. Buying a dedicated graphics card (have been waiting on Nvidia Pascal cards to come out later this year - for those who do not follow such things, it sounds like they will come with a minimum of 8GB of memory!).

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807781#Comment_807781

Logos 6 searching, having 4-12GB "free" RAM should provide a noticeable performance increase after the first search (which loads the data from disk into RAM).

I have 32 GB RAM and having now also a math application in the memory as not active, I don't see any difference, all searches take the same time. Trying search "ephesos" in basic search in everything took 6 seconds with 4500 resources (Logos5 folder has 34 GB data). The Task manager shows around 450 MB RAM in use.

So for me it looks like no data goes to the RAM cache? I have W8.1.

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807781#Comment_807781

For scientific applications or Logos 6 searching, having 4-12GB "free" RAM should provide a noticeable performance increase after the first search (which loads the data from disk into RAM).

Bradley, what you said here didn't sink in for me until Veli commented on it and I read it a second time. I have noticed that before an initial search there is a noticeable delay. Once the first search has been run, I don't encounter the delay anymore, which seems to be what you are saying. Is there any way to load the necessary files/databases/indexes into RAM on the front end, either as soon as Windows boots or as soon as Logos is opened? Would whatever files Logos is loading into memory to do an initial search be good candidates for a RAM disk?

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807864#Comment_807864

I have 32 GB RAM...Logos5 folder has 34 GB data.

Nice. With just a little more RAM you could load the entire Logos program and all of its resources into RAM at once! Granted, you would have to update the RAM drive image on shutdown to save updates in resources, indexing, etc., but in theory you would see an improvement in speed over even an SSD. The main downside is you would have to load 34 GB of files into RAM before using Logos, but good things come to those that wait!

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807907#Comment_807907

Now it begins to sound exciting. I saw this info in the W8.1 task manager picture below. It says cached 21.1 GB.

Does Logos actually load something in some cases, before any searches?

This may also explain why it is sometimes extremely slow (it usually happens when opening the library media, no response and the screen becomes foggy). It does not crash but I just have to wait - or as an impatient person I´ll go and make some coffee [:$] When I return it has done what I expected.

John Goodman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807778#Comment_807778

Logos 6 uses a technique called "memory-mapped file I/O" whenever possible.

Is that the case for macs too? I'm wondering because Logos 6 doesn't ever seem to use as much RAM even as Google Chrome. I have 16gb and I'm sure about 12gb have never been fired up;)

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807907#Comment_807907

Is there any way to load the necessary files/databases/indexes into RAM on the front end, either as soon as Windows boots or as soon as Logos is opened?

It's theoretically possible to write a program that would do this, but there could be negative side-effects, such as making Windows or Logos take longer to boot up by forcing it to load data that you don't actually need just yet. (Writing the program to only load the data when the system is otherwise completely idle would be more complicated.) You'd also run the risk that (due to other activity) Windows would need to reclaim the memory before Logos got to use it, so loading it would have been a waste of time.

FWIW, if you don't reboot your computer, the files should still be cached in RAM even if you close and restart Logos.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807919#Comment_807919

Is that the case for macs too?

Yes, although I'm a lot less familiar with how Activity Monitor (or top) reports it; it might be in the "Shared Mem" column?

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/807814#Comment_807814

Regarding RAM:

Installing a higher performance RAM makes a significant difference.

From what I read online about real world testing, upping RAM speed whether by clock or latency yields modest gains (typically single-digit percentage points). RAM is not the bottleneck in most situations.

Regarding improving performance for Logos:

I have found that having a discrete GPU with stable drivers is beneficial.

Could you elaborate? Are you driving a high resolution monitor, or multiple screens?