The Way of the Lord Jesus by Germain Grisez in Verbum

SineNomine
SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043
edited November 20 in Resources Forum

Could anyone who has purchased The Way of the Lord Jesus by Germain Grisez comment on its tagging, linking, formatting, and/or general ease of use? Knowing what you know now, would you purchase it if you did not have it?

“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

Comments

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith Member, MVP Posts: 53,043 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It appears to be well linked to Aquinas and church documents at least. Yes, I would.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • SineNomine
    SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043

    Thank you for your quick and helpful reply, MJ.

    It appears to be well linked to Aquinas and church documents at least.

    Excellent.

    How is the quality and ease of use of the table of contents?

    Yes, I would.

    What use(s) would you recommend it for / have you found it helpful for?

    “The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith Member, MVP Posts: 53,043 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The table of contents is on the left and provides a very adequate summary of the book. The text on the right has the key points in bold. which makes it easy to skim when your looking for something that a search can't identify.

    I'm still basically reading through it a question at a time as moral theology is something I've not read widely in - for years I read little but liturgical theology and documents.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Brian Losabia
    Brian Losabia Member Posts: 245

    Here are a few screenshots of a Reference type Concordance being created for The Way of the Lord Jesus Vols. 1-3:

    [IMG]http://i64.tinypic.com/x1d56d.jpg[/IMG]
    [IMG]http://i63.tinypic.com/2mi51qp.jpg[/IMG]
    [IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/71229w.jpg[/IMG]

    Here is a snippet from the preface of Christian Moral Principles, the first volume:

    [quote]

    The purpose and character of this book

    This book is constructed primarily as a textbook in fundamental moral theology for students in Catholic seminaries. Three drafts were used in a two-semester course I have been teaching since 1979 in Mount Saint Mary’s Seminary. However, those already ordained to the priesthood, teachers of religion, parents concerned about the catechetical formation of their children, and others may find the book helpful. As I explain in chapter one, questions E through H, the book responds to Vatican II’s call for renewal in moral theology.
    Why is moral theology so important? Morality is a characteristic of human actions. Human actions are not what is most fundamental in reality or in Christian life, for more basic is the reality and work of God. Nevertheless, God has chosen to create persons who can be like himself in acting intelligently and freely. God ennobles his creatures by making them his able and effective cooperators. Our lives are not passing; they are ourselves. In this passing world we make the selves and relationships which will endure forever. For this reason, the moral quality of Christian life is very important.
    The reality of God and the quality of his other works do not depend upon what we think. But the quality of our Christian lives, which also are the work of God, does depend upon what we think. Moral theology helps to improve this thinking. Therefore, moral theology is one of the most important parts of theology. Its study contributes in a unique way to the work of God.
    In this book, I assume that the reader accepts everything the Catholic Church believes and teaches. This book is not apologetics aimed at nonbelievers nor is it an attempt to rescue the faith of those who have serious doubts. However, anyone who thinks has many difficulties with respect to the Church’s teaching, and I try to help resolve some of these difficulties.
    Moreover, here and there notes are supplied to suggest how arguments based on common human experience can help prepare the way for the acceptance of the Church’s teaching. These indications are intended, not as proofs in any strict sense, but as helps to understand what the Church believes and proposes for belief.
    For the most part I proceed in this work in a constructive way, with minimal attention to positions inconsistent with received Catholic teaching. But sometimes alternative opinions which bear directly on the subject matter could not be ignored. Such opinions are expounded and evaluated critically, using as the standard the constant and very firm teaching of the Catholic Church.
    My evaluation of much that has been published by Catholics writing in moral theory since Vatican II is negative. The Council called for a Christ-centered moral theology. Too much of what has been published in recent years, far from being centered upon Jesus, is vitiated by substantial compromises with secular humanism.
    My criticism of various recent works ought not to be misunderstood as a judgment upon any person. It is one thing to criticize what someone says (or even does) and quite another to judge persons themselves. When one is convinced that what others are saying is erroneous or what they are doing is wrong one hopes they are sincere and that God, who reads hearts, will find their hearts pure or that, if he does not, will make them so.
    Undoubtedly, this work itself includes errors. Vatican II’s call for renewal is an overwhelming challenge. I hope no error here will be found contrary to faith and that none will seriously harm anyone. I ask that those who are more able call my attention to any error they find. In what I have written here, as in everything I write—everything I think—I submit gladly and wholeheartedly to the better judgment of the Catholic Church.


    Grisez, G. (1997). The Way of the Lord Jesus, Volume One: Christian Moral Principles (pp. xxix–xxx). Quincy, IL: Franciscan Press.

    I honestly did not make very much headway into the books when attempting to do an old school, "elementary" type reading of the series.  If/when I give it another honest try, I will definitely do some inspectional reading first, as described in How To Read A Book.  I think that pre-reading will be time well invested, especially since this book has such a nice table of contents and index.

    I have investigated some of the questions in the third volume (Difficult Moral Questions).  This volume seems more accessible to me, since the questions are sort of stand alone entities.  Here's a snippet from the intro of Vol. 3:

    [quote]This book is the third in a four-volume effort to contribute to the renewal of Catholic moral theology called for by Vatican Council II. Volume one, Christian Moral Principles (which I shall refer to by CMP, with page numbers) articulated a general theory of morality and theology of Christian life; volume two, Living a Christian Life (LCL), treated the moral responsibilities common to most or all Catholic lay people and those common to clerics, religious, and laity. This volume deals with the responsibilities of lay people in various specific occupations and relationships; since the potential subject matter is endless, however, it treats only some difficult questions that are widespread, especially important, or usefully illustrative.
    Like the other volumes, this one is intended primarily for use as a seminary text or instructional resource. But unlike the earlier volumes, which mainly present common Catholic teaching and reflect on it theologically, it deals with questions not yet the subject of explicit or clearly applicable Church teachings. Conscientious lay people facing challenging moral questions and those from whom they seek advice will find here guidance not available elsewhere: if not replies to their questions, a model for thinking about questions more or less like those they have. But like many helpful medications, tools, and appliances, the book will be used safely and effectively, as I said, only if its character, purposes, and limitations are borne in mind.


    Grisez, G. (1997). The Way of the Lord Jesus, Volume Three: Difficult Moral Questions (p. xv). Quincy, IL: Franciscan Press.

  • SineNomine
    SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043

    The table of contents is on the left and provides a very adequate summary of the book. The text on the right has the key points in bold. which makes it easy to skim when your looking for something that a search can't identify.

    Both in the picture you provided and as described by you, this seems like an excellent arrangement. Thank you!

    I'm still basically reading through it a question at a time as moral theology is something I've not read widely in - for years I read little but liturgical theology and documents.

    It would seem to you then that this trilogy might be considered generally readable (and not just as a reference work) by people used to reading theology who desire to systematically learn more moral theology?

    “The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

  • SineNomine
    SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043

    Here are a few screenshots of a Reference type Concordance being created for The Way of the Lord Jesus Vols. 1-3:

    Thank you for these. They are quite illuminating.

    Here is a snippet from the preface of Christian Moral Principles, the first volume:

    Thank you for both snippets. They are useful.

    I honestly did not make very much headway into the books when attempting to do an old school, "elementary" type reading of the series.  If/when I give it another honest try, I will definitely do some inspectional reading first, as described in How To Read A Book.  I think that pre-reading will be time well invested, especially since this book has such a nice table of contents and index.

    All of this makes sense. These volumes seem to really be what they purport to be--a detailed and lengthy, deep and comprehensive high-level textbook in Catholic moral theology. I am looking for something like that. (Are you aware of any other such works in English from the last few decades, ideally in Verbum?)

    I have investigated some of the questions in the third volume (Difficult Moral Questions).  This volume seems more accessible to me, since the questions are sort of stand alone entities. 

    Do you find that the questions in it are well chosen? That the answers are well written and argued? Does Grisez seem to shy away at all from anything?

    “The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

  • Beh
    Beh Member Posts: 1

    I'm not sure what the forum rules are but the author, Germain Grisez, has made the complete work available online at http://www.twotlj.org/index.html

    If this link is in breach of forum rules then I will remove the post.

  • Brian Losabia
    Brian Losabia Member Posts: 245

    All of this makes sense. These volumes seem to really be what they purport to be--a detailed and lengthy, deep and comprehensive high-level textbook in Catholic moral theology. I am looking for something like that. (Are you aware of any other such works in English from the last few decades, ideally in Verbum?)

    Other than Veritatis Splendor and TWOTLJ, the only other specifically moral theology focused work I've read in Logos is William Mattison's Introducing Moral Theology: True Happiness and the Virtues, and it had a big impact on me.  I think that it's more of an intro level sort of book, compared to Grisez, and was very well suited for me.  Here's another big quoted chunk of text, this time from the introduction to Mattison's book:

    [quote]

    The Goals and Format of the Book

    There are five large goals driving the tone and structure of this book’s exploration of the central question, what is a good life? The first echoes what was said above: to present the riches of the Western (particularly Christian) traditions of moral thought in an accessible and hospitable manner. Our answers to everyday contemporary questions about how to live our lives can be nourished by seeking the guidance of the smart and holy people who have gone before us. Thus the starting point for this book is not an assumed knowledge of or even interest in traditional sources such as Plato, Aristotle, St. Augustine, or St. Thomas Aquinas. The starting point here is own our lives and the questions that inevitably arise as we live our lives. Hence, examples are generally taken from everyday experiences. The thought and terminology of those who have gone before us is then only employed to the extent that it helps us better understand and answer the questions we face. As noted above, it is assumed here that everyone—however articulately or even consciously—is seeking how to live a happy, fulfilling life. This provides a common starting point for our reflection and a reason to appeal to classical sources in the tradition in a manner that applies to our experiences. When moral theology is understood in this way it is not only accessible but hospitable.
    Second, this book presents moral theology as informing the common everyday questions of our lives primarily through the concept of virtue. The notion of virtue is explained more fully in chapter 3. Virtues (such as the seven that help structure this book: faith, hope, love, prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance) are stable qualities a person has that enable him or her to live a good life. One benefit of approaching moral theology through the virtues is that living virtuously (which is the same as living morally) accounts for the importance of rules without reducing the entire moral life to rules. Furthermore, focusing on virtue enables us to attend to the sorts of persons we become, and not simply the sorts of acts we perform. Finally, describing the good life through the virtues provides both a way to describe the commonalities between people of varying or no religious tradition, and a way to delineate the distinctiveness of the virtuous Christian life. As seen below, the very twofold structure of the book reflects this latter concern.
    The third goal for this text is to present a comprehensive account of moral theology. Despite its reliance on a virtue perspective of morality, this text boldly seeks to present all important topics in the field of moral theology. Reminiscent of the first goal, the purpose of this text is not to present an academic field of inquiry called moral theology. Its starting point is the set of questions that our lives pose to us. But that starting point provides the context for exploring all of the main concepts of which any student of the discipline moral theology should grasp.
    Fourth, a foundational claim of this book is that living a good life requires a truthful grasp of the way things are in reality. This claim is true not only with regard to the necessity of having an accurate grasp of ourselves and the world around us, but also with regard to the moral importance of our answers to what are called here “big-picture” questions: is there a God and if so what is God like? What is the meaning of human life? What happens after death? Our answers to these ultimate questions have enormous impact on what we think constitutes living a good life. While the first half of the book demonstrates how our understanding of “the way thing are” concerning worldly matters is morally important, the second half explains how critical for our lives are our big-picture beliefs about the way things are. Given this claim, a basic account of the Christian story of the way things are is offered here, along with more extensive treatments of key features of the Christian vision of the way things are.
    The fifth goal of this book is to examine several particular moral issues. Many texts on moral theology (or Christian ethics) begin with, and perhaps rest exclusively with, particular contested moral issues. This is understandable, since any fruitful discussion of moral theology must eventually engage concrete issues. However, particular cases are purposely not the starting point of this book. They are treated only after extensive discussion of the virtues. The purpose of the four “test case” chapters in this book is not to offer an exhaustive treatment of each of those four issues (drinking alcohol, the use of the atomic bomb in 1945, when to have sex, and euthanasia). The purpose is twofold. First, each test case does indeed aim to offer practical guidance as to each of these actions or decisions. But second, this is done in a manner that attempts to illustrate the important difference it makes to attend to virtue in moral theology. It is hoped the discussion of cases in this book accomplishes that, in addition to (in fact, as a means of) offering persuasive positions on each of the issues.
    The structure of the book flows directly from these goals. The book is divided into two halves based upon two types of virtue: cardinal virtues and theological virtues. The first half focuses on cardinal virtues, which are qualities that enable persons to do well those worldly activities that are part of any human life in any time or culture, including eating, drinking, sex, making decisions, relating with others, and facing difficulties. This half of the book describes simply how human persons function regarding such activities, and what qualities enable us to function well. The first three chapters address how human persons think and act in practical matters by addressing the topics: “why be moral?” (chapter 1), intentionality and freedom (chapter 2), and the nature and types of virtue (chapter 3). There is also a chapter on each of the four cardinal virtues: temperance (chapter 4), prudence (chapter 5), justice (chapter 7) and fortitude (chapter 9). Finally, both in order to demonstrate how the claims of these chapters play out and to offer practical guidance on particular issues, there are chapters on drinking alcohol (chapter 6) and the dropping of the atomic bomb in World War II (chapter 8).
    The second half of this book begins with an explanation of how big picture beliefs are important for shaping practical reasoning in worldly matters, and how the Christian story in particular shapes the life of virtue (chapter 10). It then proceeds with chapters on each of the three theological virtues of the Christian life: faith (chapter 11), hope (chapter 13), and love (chapter 15). These are interspersed with chapters on key themes in the Christian story which, if a central claim of this book is true, are enormously important for living a life of Christian virtue: sin (chapter 12), Jesus Christ (chapter 14), and grace (chapter 16). Finally, there are two chapters on specific moral issues, again, both to offer practical guidance and to demonstrate how the claims of the chapters in this part of the book impact the questions of when to have sex (chapter 17) and how to best make end of life decisions, particularly concerning euthanasia (chapter 18).
    As should be clear, the second half of the book is far more distinctively Christian than the first half. But for reasons mentioned in the following section and explained more fully in chapter 16, this should by no means be taken to imply that how we live out the cardinal virtues has nothing to do with Christianity and the theological virtues. The twofold division of this book does indeed signify an importance difference between the cardinal and theological virtues. But that difference should not lead one to conclude that the material of the second half has no bearing on the first half of the book. To the contrary, Christianity and the theological virtues transform and perfect how we live the cardinal virtues.
    Finally, the epilogue addresses an otherwise neglected topic in this book: the importance of prayer, liturgy, and the sacraments for living the virtuous Christian life. Since this topic is way beyond the scope of a single chapter, the epilogue simply provides an example of the seamless integration of prayer and the virtuous Christian life by demonstrating how words of the Lord’s Prayer, or the Our Father, both exemplify and further illuminate the seven virtues that help structure this book.


    Mattison, W. C., III. (2008). Introducing moral theology: true happiness and the virtues (pp. 13–15). Grand Rapids, MI: Brazos Press.

    I have investigated some of the questions in the third volume (Difficult Moral Questions).  This volume seems more accessible to me, since the questions are sort of stand alone entities. 

    Do you find that the questions in it are well chosen? That the answers are well written and argued? Does Grisez seem to shy away at all from anything?

    You can go an check out book three online here.  I like Grisez' style, and to me he seems to proceed logically from premises to conclusion.  I'm not sure how the questions in book three were chosen.  I imagine that some were real-world examples that had been posed to him, because for the life of me, I never could have dreamed up some of these scenarios.

  • SineNomine
    SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043

    You can go an check out book three online here.  I like Grisez' style, and to me he seems to proceed logically from premises to conclusion.  I'm not sure how the questions in book three were chosen.  I imagine that some were real-world examples that had been posed to him, because for the life of me, I never could have dreamed up some of these scenarios.

    I read part of Book Three; I like the format, where he gives the usually difficult question, moral principles required to answer it, and then his answer.

    “The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

  • Deacon Steve
    Deacon Steve Member Posts: 1,047

    I know that the contributors to this post are aware, but I thought I would make mention of a few other resources concerning moral theology for others that happen across this post.

    First, it would be very helpful to start with the Church teaching in the Catechism.  Part Three: Life in Christ, Chapter One, Articles 4, 5, and 6 specifically.  But don't overlook the entire content of Part Three.  The primary references mentioned are a short read, but taken slowly and deliberately are very instructive and form an essential foundation.  There is reference to Augustine and Aquinas there that will lead you into greater detail.

    The Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church would be a second resource to recommend.  Although there is no article titled "Moral Theology" contained therein, I would suggest that this resource is among the most comprehensive resources on Christian morality. 

    Principles of Christian Morality needs to be read.  It's a short work from Ratzinger and von Balthasar.  No introduction to the authors in necessary.

    The Journal of Moral Theology would be a good source of views from many authors in an easy-to-read format of short articles.

    Livio Melina's work, The Epiphany of Love makes another contribution to Catholic though on the subject of moral theology.

    Last on my list ... perhaps a mistake on my part ... is the series from Acton Institute.  A wonderful series (24 volumes) of short essays on Christian Social Thought.   

    There are other works among the Church Fathers but these in particular should help.  Also, remember the references from Augustine and Aquinas in the Catechism.  ... and the resources others have mentioned previously.

    Hope that helps.

     

  • At His Feet
    At His Feet Member Posts: 3

    I appreciate this resource list, Steve! It's very helpful for me as a beginner student of Catholic Theology.

    Thanks!

  • Deacon Steve
    Deacon Steve Member Posts: 1,047

    Your welcome.  If you are interest in browsing more of the Logos catalog on this subject, a simple search on "moral theology" filtered by "Catholic" will give you more.

    https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=moral+theology&Christian+Group=Catholic&start=30

    Peter Kreeft is an easy read.

  • Hamilton Ramos
    Hamilton Ramos Member Posts: 1,033

    God bless:

    Thank you Steve for the resources mentioned.

    If I am not mistaken one was left out:

    Two simple questions for you:

    1 Is there a Moral Theology course syllabus you can refer one to and that you consider very complete?

    2 To you how does "duty of man" fit into  Moral Theology?

    Ecclesiastes 12:13  This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.

    Thanks ahead of time for any input.

    Blessings.

  • Hamilton Ramos
    Hamilton Ramos Member Posts: 1,033

    Hi Brian, God bless:

    Do you happen to have the rule used to build a good Moral Theology collection in Logos 6, taking into consideration the resources suggested by other posters?

    If you have a good Moral Theology collection rule, would you mind sharing it with us please.

    Thanks, and blessings.

  • Deacon Steve
    Deacon Steve Member Posts: 1,047

    Hi Hamilton,

    That is a good resource not mentioned previously.  Thanks for pointing that out.  As for your questions:

    1 Is there a Moral Theology course syllabus you can refer one to and that you consider very complete?

    I am a student and not a teacher.  I'm sure there are many different syllabi that would be representative of the various levels of learning, depending on a school or a professor's approach.  My suggestion there would be to go to the different Catholic university and/or seminary websites and look up their requirements for degrees in Moral Theology/Ethics.  A internet search on Catholic Moral Theology syllabus should bring up many examples.

    2 To you how does "duty of man" fit into  Moral Theology?

    My simple-minded opinion on this particular subject would be that it is what is there in the text ... the primary call of Fear of the Lord and obedience to the commandments of the Lord as they apply in society.  There are many instances in the Pentateuch where the authors are exhorting the ancient Israelites to care for the poor (search "poor" in the Old Testament) ... Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus.  Duties and responsibilities each person as a member of the community out of love and respect for who God is and what he has done for them.

    Just my thoughts ...

  • SineNomine
    SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043

    1 Is there a Moral Theology course syllabus you can refer one to and that you consider very complete?

    I am a student and not a teacher.  I'm sure there are many different syllabi that would be representative of the various levels of learning, depending on a school or a professor's approach.  My suggestion there would be to go to the different Catholic university and/or seminary websites and look up their requirements for degrees in Moral Theology/Ethics.  A internet search on Catholic Moral Theology syllabus should bring up many examples.

    I agree fully with Steve, and add that it would be entirely impossible for a single course syllabus--even for a full-year course--to be "very complete". There is far too much Catholic moral theology for one course. What you may really want is a good reading list in moral theology; consulting the bibliographies of online course syllabi may be helpful in this regard.

    “The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

  • Hamilton Ramos
    Hamilton Ramos Member Posts: 1,033

    Thanks Steve and SineNomine for the input.

    I found good syllabi in the internet, and a lot of good information from Rev. James T. Bretzke.

    Do you remember how many years ago Encarta Encyclopedia came with course outline and / or syllabus so one could explore subjects by oneself?

    I wish there was something similar for L6.

    I also would like Rev. Bretzke to do a L6 Mobile ed course on Moral Theology.

    Steve: I understand that there should be special attention to the poor. Unfortunately, the wrong initiative can do more bad than good.

    I like the "Christian development" approach, where people are taught to organize and act in ways that help them be responsible for themselves.

    One such mechanism is the Cooperative organization. It has helped poor communities get out of poverty and improve the quality of life.

    Human dignity calls for persons being able to work in such a way that they can reap the benefits of their organized labor, and can help improve their communities.

    Jesuits were good at helping people organize for innovative socioeconomic initiatives. Other religious institutions / groups should have such ministry developed too.

    At the end you could have at risk communities both improve standards of living, and allow people to be able to lead a holy and responsible life.

    If you can check Aquaponics, very effective "help yourself" initiative, but very few take up the initiative.

    Thank you very much for your input in the thread, and for your kind answers.

    Blessings.