alabama24 said:

Schumitinu said:

Maybe you can explain.

I am fairly certain that Bob (or another FL employee) mentioned that users have used the PBB in ways not originally intended... including importing books from other sources. He hinted around the grey areas and the costs to the company to host the files. I haven't been able to find the post, but I don't think I am daydreaming. I'll look again. To break down what I think is happening: PBB usage ballooned beyond what FL expected. There are legal grey areas FL would rather not explore and the costs are great. From that perspective, it doesn't make sense to spend time developing it on mobile.

Sometime ago Kevin (the Faithlife employee responsible for the mobile apps forum) either posted something to that effect or he posted a quoted portion of a comment from Bob Pritchett saying something to that effect. It's all quite vague in my mind so don't lean too much on what I'm saying. Do moderators have a special subforum that we don't get to see? I got the impression that the quoted bit from Bob came from some such place. Anyway, not long after he put it up, Kevin deleted his post or Bob's quote or both; can't remember. Anyway, it was at that time I officially gave up on PPB to mobile.

Having a feature, and then making promises about that feature and then being silent for years and not developing it is simply wrong.  Giving explanations would be right.  I realize things change.  I realize Faithlife may want to scrap the PBB.  But they should let us know instead of keeping us in the dark.

I don't necessarily need mobile upload anymore. I really like PBB to be able to preach from my own uploaded sermon notes directly in the logos program, with the Bible on the left and sermons on the right.  I like the idea of creating my own study Bible directly in the program.

It would be right for FL to comment on the status of PBB.  It is wrong for the silence to continue.

This is also a case study in why companies don't crowdsource product management to the denizens of their public message boards. The personal priorities of passionate partisans do not accurately represent the demands of the marketplace as a whole. Any company that prioritizes the former over the latter dies out.

Don Awalt said:

Virgil Buttram said:

This is also a case study in why companies don't crowdsource product management to the denizens of their public message boards. The personal priorities of passionate partisans do not accurately represent the demands of the marketplace as a whole. Any company that prioritizes the former over the latter dies out.

I would say there's a middle road somewhere between being whip-sawed by a social media approach to product management and ignoring a product feature that the most active users have asked about for 5+ years.

What he said!  ⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎

In my opinion, Logos is concerned with customers creating their own public domain books. Why should customers pay Logos's inflated price if they could create and exchange many public domain books for free? Public domain books are a cash cow for Logos (I expect). Logos is a business first and needs recurring income streams for profitability.

Into Grace said:

In my opinion, Logos is concerned with customers creating their own public domain books

Michael Childs said:

I would not be surprised to see the Personal Book feature disappear from Logos at some point, but I would be very disappointed.

I too would be very disappointed if Faithlife made the decision as well. I can see while there would be some concern from FL about public domain books. But the transparency that FL believes it always shows to its customers would motivate them to discuss this issue openly. It's not helping anyone to have a dormant incomplete feature. Sometimes open discussion can bring an otherwise unforeseen solution that no one envisioned. Maybe the only answer is utter disappointment for the PBB users. But life goes on, we would get over it. And can anyone really say that ignoring the feature, ignoring the conversation, and developing a bit of distrust due to the lack of transparency is a better road? I would actually respect them more for being as open and transparent as they advertise to be, making the tough decision, and then we can move on with some confidence we are clued in to the direction. After all, it is somewhat insulting to think we are clueless as to what is going on with the wish list being ignored for 5+ years.

I use Personal Books, but I have not paid much attention to the desktop syncing because I considered it irrelevant to me.  I use the Surface Pro as both tablet (mobile) and desktop.  So I always have my Personal Books. 

Would someone explain to me about the desktop syncing of personal books?  Are my personal books automatically synced to the Logos servers?  When I update from Surface Pro 3 to Surface Pro 5 in the future, will this be of help to me?

Thanks for explaining to one who obviously is behind.

Bob Pritchett said:

- There are surprising technical difficulties: chief among them are that we don't do a local index on mobile devices. (Yet. And maybe never. But that's a whole technical problem itself.) So we have to search the whole catalog on the server, and that whole catalog takes nearly 24 hours to index. But at least it only needs to be reindexed when we create a new resource, so no more than once a day. Which just barely works. Then we filter out results for books you don't own. (I may be glossing over details here, but it's generally correct.)

Adding user-created PBB's to this story dramatically increases the number of titles, could delay indexing to where we can't do it in 24 hours, and really clutters the index, because a massive number of PBB books are the same book created independently by many people, due to sharing of source files and recompiling of them.

I think we have our answer. The way Logos designed indexing for the mobile client prohibits them for allowing our personal book content to seamlessly integrate into the mobile environment. Too bad since it would have provided more user benefit to have our content available. Personally, I like having my research and writings inside Logos. Having all of one's personal writings in Logos would provide much more user loyalty to the software.

Since no marketing organization would go against engineering to request that large of an engineering redesign, I have resigned myself that my personal book content will never be synced to a Logos mobile app. I will either eventually get a Microsoft Surface Pro (ugh!) to run a full version of Verbum or continue with my remote access to my Macbook Pro from my iPad using a remote login utility like Splashtop Pro. 

Very disappointing.

Agape,

Steve

As usual, Bob has communicated a very sensible, transparent, honest, and thoughtful response to user concerns. Unfortunately, I suspect there will be some for whom this very well-thought-out and transparent response will not be good enough. 

One thing that I have gleaned through an in-depth examination of the thoughts expressed in these forums is that some users seem to have lost sight of the fact that there are several million registered users of the Logos platform, hundreds of thousands of active users, tens of thousands of very active users, and thousands of extremely active users (like most of us in these forums), and a few hundred crazy-smart amazing users (like Graham, Mark, MJ, Rosie, etc – sorry – had to throw that one in for fun). In other words, I think some have lost sight of just how many users there are, and thus make the (faulty) assumption that the small segment of users who have rallied together in hopes of pressuring Faithlife into catering to their particular demands actually represents a larger segment of the user populace than they actually do. For instance, several in this forum have stated that Faithlife has “lost sight of its customers' desires” (I'm paraphrasing…I can't remember exact wordage), and could be, thus, in danger of hindering future profitability (IE: folding under; biting the dust; calling it quits; kaputs!).

Yet it would be more accurate to say that Faithlife is not catering to their individual, specific desires. Just because Faithlife isn't fulfilling the demands of a small segment of users, and I do mean small (this is the point they are blindly ignoring - no matter how articulate their response to the contrary might be), this in no way means that Faithlife has lost sight of the broader picture.

Even if every forum user in this thread seemed to think Faithlife was not considering their input, it still does not mean that they do not have a handle on what the majority of their customer base wants / desires /needs. In other words, a few trees simply cannot, and should not, attempt to speak for the entire forest, no matter how high they might tower in the forest or how big around those trees are [ok…I am NOT calling anyone fat in this post…that was for illustrative purposes, only!]. Instead, they should remember that they are but one of many, many trees in the forest. It’s much like the passionate democratic voter who thinks that, somehow, his vote should count more simply because he speaks louder, talks more, signs more petitions, attends more rallies, carries a bigger stick, can rally the troops together in the cleverest way, or has the gift of poignant, articulate expression. In the end, they are but one vote. This is not intended to devalue them or their vote in any way - quite the contrary - but it does serve to remind them not to overvalue themselves as a voter. None of us should make assumptions, expressed or implied (most often implied), that our desires carry more weight because we have the ability to garner a following and convince others that they, too, cannot live without the features we ourselves think we cannot live without.

In the end, if we are honest, many of the vocal, stone-throwing scenarios we see in the forums are usually motivated by a small few (sometimes the same small few), and really do not represent what the larger segment of users actually want or need (for example, I have no desire to have PBBs on my mobile device...I mean, sure, if it were available, I would use it, but it isn't something I would think twice about otherwise). Yet one would think that I am represented by this vocal minority here and thus I do want and need this feature. Many others probably wouldn't have thought that much about this feature either, until they were exposed to the vocal minority’s rants and raves, and then decided, "Oh, yeah, man, I gotta have this. Like Jesus said, I will most certainly perish without BOTH repentance and PBB on my mobile device." I do not mean to say that the feature request isn’t a valid one. It is. But in the large scheme of things, it is way, way down the list for anyone who honestly and rationally examines the functionality of the software and Bible study processes (for example – the new Concordance feature would be much more valuable to the average Bible study student than the ability to sync a PD PBB resource to their mobile device – a resource they can access in other places).

Now I realize that even as I write this those few in the vocal minority are thinking about their next strategy, how they will articulate their response, the points they will levy against the rest of us, how they will respond in a way that justifies their accusations that Faithlife has lost sight of their desires and their wishes as a customer, and how Faithlife is on the way out of business because their wishes are not regarded as the 11th Commandment of Exodus 20. However, they will not and cannot prove in any uncertain terms the fact that, given the size of their customer base, Faithlife doesn't adequately comprehend, and in fact appreciate, what the needs and desires of their customer base actually are. It simply isn't fair to assert that Faithlife doesn't value one's patronage or that one has been ignored or forgotten simply because their demands are not met – in fact, excuse the bluntness – but it is rather childish! And it isn't fair to accuse Faithlife of a lack of transparency simply because they do not supply the kind of answers one wishes, in the manner one wishes, at the moment one wishes, all in the Authorized King James User Version. Heaven forbid they should give us an NIV answer, or an ESV answer when we have demanded a KJV only answer of them! Common folks, let’s get real, get reasonable, and focus on what matters in life. 

Let me also say that I, for one, take issue with the accusations that Bob and the Faithlife team leave people in the dark. To me, this is nothing more than the use of hyperbole as propaganda to garner support for one's cause – the use of drama to effect a few loyal followers to support one’s cause and increase influence (we call that “control” in the church; we’ll call it influence here). I actively use several other software platforms (mainly because there are resources available through them that I cannot get in Logos [the mass of Broadman and Holman resources that can only be purchased on WORDSearch, for example]). And in none - yes, I definitively said "none" - of those other platforms do the founder and CEO of the company ever communicate directly with their users (at least not in the manner or frequency that Bob does - not even close).

I think that Bob is remarkably transparent and honest with forum users, more so than he should ever be expected. I think that he is also very kind and gracious, given the barrage of attacks and accusations that are levied against him and his Christian company (I take them personally, and I'm not him..I can't imagine how some of these forum post must make him feel. Unless he has skin of steel, I'm sure that some of these accusations and attacks are heart-wrenching to him. But then again, I would imagine that those with the loudest voices are probably the least likely, sadly and unfortunately, to be concerned about that fact, so I will move forward). His reply today is prima facie evidence that Bob and the team do respond to users, and they care about what users need and want. I mean, he's the CEO of a multimillion dollar for-profit corporation. Yet he takes the time to draft a kind and transparent response to user concerns - in the middle of his work day. This should be good enough for those who have voiced their concerns in this forum. Unfortunately, I suspect it will not be. 

For those whom Bob's response will not be good enough, I asked you to take a breath – then take a moment to think about what's really important. There are so many things going on in this world that are much more important than whether not we can see our personal books on our mobile devices. I mean, in the last month hundreds of people have lost their homes due to flooding. Everyday Christians are being murdered by radical Islam. There's a very good chance that a woman who considers the murder of unborn children and the union of same-sex couples in holy matrimony to be ethically pleasing and morally upright will become our president (this is especially sad because, outside of this particular candidate, America has never been more ready for our first female president!).

So let's leverage the power of Logos, the best Bible study software known to man, to do more Bible study. Let's be thankful for all of the advancements and innovation that the Faithlife team have brought to us over the years. Let's celebrate the functionalities we already have and become more grounded in God's Word through them, in order that we can leverage the power of His Word to transform our homes, our communities, our workplaces, and then our world. Please friends, let's quit arguing over a drippy faucet when the dam outside our back door is about break. 

Remember the words of the Apostle Paul “…I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am” (Philippians 4:11).  Let’s also learn to be content with whatever set the functionalities we have or do not have on our mobile devices. Our goal – no, our desire - as Christian should be to learn how to be content in the good times and in the bad times – how to be content with what we have. Somehow, as Christians, we’ve convinced ourselves that we can only be content when others, IE: the Faithlife team, are bowing down to our every wish and command. Yet for those that hope in God and who learn to turn their focus toward Him, contentment can and will come, and it will be realized the day we learn to be grateful for what we have, respectful, honorable, and upright in our pursuit of what we do not have, and joyful and thankful for the things we come to realize we shall never have – even if that includes the absence of PBBs on our iPads.

Blessing in Christ, and love to each of my fellow Logos 4, 5, 6, and 7 [and I guess Libronix, too] users. [:D]

Thanks Bob for your comments.  I wish they could have been expressed earlier.  While there are always difficult customers, the forum has been a fairly good source of feedback and filled with many of us who (while frustrated) actually understand there are issues (some we will not know about) faced by FL. Some feedback:

1. Why can there not a way to have PBB stored on a user's document folder, and not on the server?  That allows users to use personal books, sermons and public domain books which will never enter into Logos program...This idea may not allow syncing.  That is fine.  But can this be a solution to the indexing issues?

2.  While FL created the system, it is understandable that you do not want PBB to be turned into a private business of selling pbbs.  But it seems to me you can state that and put into the user agreement that pbbs cannot be sold and that pbbs of logos content cannot be made, and that if a pbb is made of a resource that at some point FL plans to produce and sell, that it will at that point be disallowed and deleted as a pbb.

3.  You mentioned that PBB is used by a tiny group of users.  Thanks for letting us know that.  Because I had no idea.  It would have helped if that was known through the years. It could alleviate frustration.  But at the same time, I am not sure what tiny means. Over the last 5 years, you have not emphasized this feature.  I think it was popular 5 years ago, was it not?  Is it not possible that due to non development and a de-emphasis of PBB, that new user base (which has significantly grown in the last 5 years) do not use the feature? 

4. I use pbb now primarily for two reasons:  sermons and creating public domain books that will never be in Logos.  I have a lot of other pbb books from the hayday of pbbs which I would happily delete if you wanted...but there seems to be no way to permanently delete them.  Why?

As for what you want to support

1.  I like the idea of a sermon archiving support but why do you need to archive my sermons?  Why cannot they remain personal to me?  And would archiving them...this idea of yours...allow us to have the feel of a personal book in Logos that is actually our sermons?  Because that is what I am looking for.  A Bible open on the left side of the screen and my sermon, or a bunch of sermons open on the right side of the screen.  Is that type of scenario what you have in mind for the sermon archiving support?

2.  Your idea of storing articles, research, pdfs seems like a possible solution to the pbb dilemma.  It is good to know there is thought going into an idea like this.

3.  I wish and hope that if there is an archiving of our own studies (not monograph length) that we would still be able to read public domain books not available in Logos via pdf.  They do not need all functionality like a regular logos book.  Just the ability to read in the platform and underline parts of the pdf

4.  I do not understand why you would even think of a system where users could sell their own monographs.  Seems like the pbb problem once again.

Finally, if pbb is not used often, if it is so rare, used by a tiny base of users, then it most likely is not cutting into your bottom line and I fail to see why there has been so much silence over the years on this issue.  You emphasize that it is a tiny group of users.  Then there is a very easy way to fix the pbb issues.  Syncing clearly should not be supported due to reasons you have given and FL could have stated that all along.  All we really wanted was to not be in the dark about the development or lack of it for PBB. 

If pbb is not used often, if it is so rare, used by a tiny base of users, then can you give the ability to permanently delete user content?  Can you simply add to the user agreement that pbbs cannot be sold, cannot be made of books already in logos...can our user content be stored locally on our computers rather than on the server...the ability to simply have it appear from my computer into the logos program locally.

I realize I am not a technician and some of these ideas may not be feasible.  But please know that I am writing to brainstorm ideas.

Thanks again for finally weighing in on this topic.

Mark

James Macleod said:

I would rather see the Sermon Editor expanded. 

 I could not agree with you more. Amen to the one millionth power! 

The main reason I need personal books is to support obscure languages that you will likely never have products for (Thai for me). 

I am trying to collect and develop resources for a language that has virtually nothing, and want a platform that is trustworthy, reliable and that can serve as a reliable base for all of this.

Adding mobile sync would make you the single option for Bible software that could be used like this to creating resources in other languages across all platforms. This would be great for getting customers hooked into and trained on your system and incentivized to invest more. Not to mention being a great service to the church in these languages that don’t have software written for them.

You might say that that is not a market for your products since they don’t speak English, but the vast majority actually do, just not as a first language, and need a place that accomodates their native language resources as well as the resources that are only availble in English under one roof. 

So there.

"it's technical"  https://community.logos.com/forums/p/126859/825408.aspx#825408 

"No, it isn't"  https://community.logos.com/forums/p/122739/802119.aspx#802119 

"Yes, it is"  http://community.logos.com/forums/p/104935/725730.aspx#725730 

"Look, an argument isn't just contradiction."

"It can be."

"No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition; it's not just saying 'No it isn't.' "

"Yes, it is."

"No, it isn't"

I wonder how difficult it would be to make the PBs that are sync'd to the desktop available on the Web App? (...the dreamer, the unwoken fool; in dreams no pain will kiss the brow....)

Don Awalt said:

Add the need to create new functionality in every point release of Logos/Verbum in order to make the subscription model attractive to new subscribers

More like new shovelware resources that are only appealing to a fraction of a fraction of the theological community. If they want to attract a solid broad base maybe they could focus more on getting the best classic and contemporary resources and stop trying to cram us with 1,000 resources forgotten in the in the dustbin of history plus FaithlifeTV.

Take Noet as an example. Suppose I'm teaching a course on Plato next semester and I'm trying to decide on the resources and materials to use. What immediately comes to mind as I plan the course would be Allan Bloom's The Republic of Plato, 2nd ed. and Plato: Complete Works eds. Cooper and Hutchinson. I could do that for $70. What definitely wouldn't come to mind is to spend $100 on the 1892 Benjamin Jowett translations that I can find for *free*. "But the search functionality!" has been the typical defense of paying more for a product that isn't up to date with the most recent scholarship... Sorry, but that fails because if I bought the digital versions of Bloom & Cooper/Hutchingson from a certain other major online retailer I would have search functionality and now be spending even less money: $51.

While my example deals with Noet, in my opinion, this is the same problem plaguing Logos and why people like me are spending our money elsewhere. ...Though I won't be dogmatic about it.