Pricing is just crazy complex...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868701#Comment_868701

Just reading Joel's examples brings tears to my eyes ... symbolically. I'm a Libby veteran and watched this whole thing unfold. Not exagerating, but I give up pretty quick.

I remember when L7 intro'd, I couldn't figure the choices out. Finally I got FFS and said 'enough'. People said if I got Now first, I'd save money. Call in a refund. My reaction was 'enough'. I'm tired of the marketing confusion.

Yes, Logos is good. (Actually, Libby is best.) Yes, the programs are both unusual and good. I wish Amazon could do similarly. But the grief Logos Marketing demands is too much. And each time someone bravely asks why so difficult or misleading, the forumites try to give pointers. First, this, then that. Next take something out of the cart. Lastly the package, but not the prepub, and collections are STILL anyone's guess. I assume they're in LaLa land.

I feel very sorry for the Logos web people ... if like most companies, they're over-whelmed with confusion from Marketing.

EDIT: I just remembered the new Pre-Pub pricing policy. Sign up early for a price break! But sign up really early ... the price changes if you wait! And it might be a good price, but maybe not. Just get the package instead before the pre-pub releases (after years of waiting). Probably. But at least Logos won't pull the rug out from under you for 6 months ... after that, all bets are off! Now, frankly, I'm ok with maybe a price-break for early sign ... I didn't actually 'pay' anything and I can back out. But all the little deviations in the road? Pitty the newbie.

Veli Voipio

The confusion may cause some euphoria and then customer may become downright crazy, something that may happen in the last minute Christmas shopping: shopping much more than originally intended. In Finnish we have a phrase that describes what happens when you apply full throttle on motorbike and then cannot release it any more, I guess there must be something similar in English. [:)]

Simon’s Brother

You've lost the plot somewhere along the line.

Faithlife lost the plot a long time ago. Their marketing leaves so much to be desired in terms clarity of the offer and clarity of what you are actually getting once you get past the marketing fluff.

Anthony Sims

It can definitely get confusing if you've been out of the "game" for a few months/years. It's like the tech world, if you don't stay in it and up to date, coming back after a long hiatus you may be in awe at how much has changed...

But is there anything specific you would like us to help you with for an upgrade? We're all willing to help, but we would need specifics...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868758#Comment_868758

Slow reply here...

So as mentioned in my post, this community is great at offering help. But that's not what this thread is about. It's a wake-up call to the Logos crew to do something about the state of things.

To address the point of 40,000 resources- sure, that's a lot. But explanations of their base packages (Now versus anything else) are explained in the most convoluted way possible. The complexity issue is from the group up. It's not about the number of resources on offer. Surprisingly I think a decent job is done of tabulating that kind of info.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus, you asked if there was anything in particular that needed simplifying. Yes there is. Everything that is too complex. If you have to take a forum post to explain to me, then it's too complex on the website. Firstly because you've had to explain it, and secondly because if you're successful, you've managed what Logos.com couldn't do over many, many pages.

Anthony, it isn't about being out of the game and not being up to date with what's new (although there is an element of truth to that). It's about confusing, badly written and often contradictory explanations about products, a maze of a website, crazy complex deals, dynamic pricing that doesn't always show you all of your options... etc etc.

Thanks for the offer for help, but I'm okay. If I wanted to figure it out I could. Right now I'll stay with 6 as a statement that the game needs to be changed.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868963#Comment_868963

But that's not what this thread is about. It's a wake-up call to the Logos crew to do something about the state of things.

In which case I recommend emailing Logos (or contacting them directly in some other way) There is no guarantee that anyone from Logos will see this thread here.

I feel your pain. I get confused too.

I'm very interested in suggestions on how we can improve this.

Our complexity comes from trying to balance so many different issues:

- We want to upgrade the core engine at no cost, so new books can use new features without requiring the user to buy an expensive upgrade to the core. They can buy a newer book and know it'll work, because they can get the engine that supports it.

- We want to avoid having people pay twice for a title. (And there are 100,000+ titles!)

- We do want to bundle content at a discount, and over time 'premium frontlist' titles become 'bundled backlist' content. Yet users want pricing on new bundles to reflect their earlier purchases. (Hence dynamic pricing.)

- Some of our new content requires on-going maintenance / investment. If we sell it once, but have to develop it forever, we'll run out of revenue to support the costs.

- The core product itself (even the 'free core engine') requires a massive ongoing investment just to stay current. Transactional sales without an ongoing subscription OR upgrade revenue don't support this ongoing expense.

- Logos Now confuses many people, because it's a 'bridge' between pure transactional (buy it, use it offline with no-online support or maintenance) and subscription (pay every month forever or lose it) sales models.

- We've been around a long time. We, and long-time customers, are used to one business model. But the future (of all software) is a different market: subscription. Transitioning is hard and messy, and it disrupts both how we are used to doing business and the expectations of existing customers. But if we don't find a way to the future, the business will disappear as we are unable to acquire new customers.

What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

Pricing definitely is complex.

Two recent examples for me were:

A bundle was offered in a sale, when one of its items was also on sale. When you also have to figure in the bundle discount and dynamic pricing, I gave up on trying to figure out which "percent off" sale was the better deal.
A pricing error on a bundle led FL to decide that the bundle shouldn't have gotten any discount at all. If pricing is too complex for FL to correctly determine when multiple savings come into play, the "fix" shouldn't be to remove one of the product's discounts. (Now that the sale is over, the bundle is sold for the same price as if you bought the items separately.)

I had suggested that FL simplify the discounts, but people like the concept that they're saving money, even if it becomes very difficult to determine how much you actually are saving.

I think the more "discounts" FL can throw into the mix, the bigger the impression that you're getting a good deal, even if the deal isn't as good as it seems.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868990#Comment_868990

What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

I think the issue is very complex, and there's probably no simple solution, but I'd like to see more accuracy about bundling and savings. The two general things for me are:

Throwing together a bundle for a special sale, and applying a big "sale" discount to it, but never applying a discount to the fact that the books bundle before the sale. Who would buy a collection of 50 or 100 books in the first place, if you only saved a couple of dollars over buying each book individually? Please show the total value of the bundle so we can see if the bundle was a good deal to start with, before the sale.
The total value (versus total cost) number is often wrong in a number of cases. This makes it very difficult to determine how much you actually are saving, especially on a base package where you own some of the items. If you show a column of prices, then show a value at the bottom and call it a total, people reasonably expect that it's a sum of the individual prices.

Thanks for the improvements that are being made, and the willingness to continue to improve pricing and policies! I can't imagine how difficult it must be to be profitable yet competitive, but I'm grateful that you care enough to interact with your customers regarding these issues.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868990#Comment_868990

- Logos Now confuses many people, because it's a 'bridge' between pure transactional (buy it, use it offline with no-online support or maintenance) and subscription (pay every month forever or lose it) sales models.

I don't think the confusion is between buying and subscribing. People can understand that they buy books, and subscribe to features.

I think the real confusion is that LN introduces a member discount (which I appreciate), that blurs the lines as to what percent actually applies to LN, and what percent applies to everyone in general. Two examples are:

Introductory pricing on base packages. Non-members get one discount, LN members get another. But when the introductory pricing ends, LN members get less of a discount, because their introductory discount was "cumulative."
Library expansions. People who bought L7 get X percent off, people who are LN members get Y percent off. Again, it's not applied cumulatively, because the "cumulative" discount is apparently already factored in to the LN discount?

Instead of letting LN members think they save 15% (which isn't in addition to other savings), wouldn't it be less confusing to say they save an additional 5% over the introductory pricing, so we know exactly what our savings are, during as well as after the introductory promotions?

Small Heath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868990#Comment_868990

Bob, we're glad you're taking an interest in this. It's beyond frustrating. It would be nice for FL to set some standards on pricing and sales. Every item, whether single or multiple, should clearly identify the following.

On sale: yes or no.

If yes: what kind of sale, Monthly, Holiday, Package Upgrade, BSM, Logos Now, Madness, Publisher, etc.

For each sale: Beginning & ending dates, parameters of each sale, website where the sale is explained, etc.

Dynamic pricing, yes or no.

Keep what's already posted, like what bundle it's part of, discount %, etc.

There should be one sale page where where a user could find everything on sale that applies to them, depending on their profile: L 7, BSM, LN, etc. The way it is now, I have to check the Christmas sale, the monthly sale, the LN sale, thumb through my BSM and enter the item description, search on Library Expansion, etc. And I need to do that every day, so I don't miss out on anything. It's just nuts. There's a lot more, Dale Heath.

Matt Hamrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868990#Comment_868990

The ownership model is what us longtime users want and in my case I see this as an opportunity for the next generation because I plan on leaving the entire library to somebody at my death. That being said I also subscribe to Logos Now so I have both models. I may or may not keep LN in the future, but I will always have the permanent library. I do plan on subscribing to LN as long as I can.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868990#Comment_868990

What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

Bob, thank you for your comments. I believe the overwhelming majority of us users understand the quandry of the future being subscription while maintaining your commitment to ownership customers. Here are my personal thoughts....

1. As a person with thousands of dollars of investment in Logos (and who uses it every single day), I am concerned that proper steps are taken to ensure the future of the company and the software. While I may not like all of the changes, my biggest single issue is that I am able to use my library in Logos ten years and twenty years down the road.

2. As for the issue about pricing confusion, I believe that it would benefit everyone if Logos took the "less is more" approach to sales prices and packaging. We have the base backages, bundles, LogosNow, etc. etc. etc. etc. That's alot of dollar figures and content options to digest. Fewer options with clear information would go a long way to clearing up confusion.

3. If subscription is where you know you have to go for the future, then move more quickly in that direction. Most of us will understand and be OK as long as we don't lose books we have already purchased.

Mattillo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869031#Comment_869031

I would appreciate it if some time and effort could be put into vyrso. I've seen countless sales pass by with no effort to bring them to vyrso... Not to mention the quality of the books.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869047#Comment_869047

I would appreciate it if some time and effort could be put into vyrso. I've seen countless sales pass by with no effort to bring them to vyrso... Not to mention the quality of the books.

Vyrso doesn't have crazy complex pricing.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869047#Comment_869047

I'm pretty sure Joel got left behind in the dust. The part about presentation (not the programs) ... how a human being is supposed to figure the presentation (not the programs) out.

It reminds me of rural Arkansas decades back ... Mr Walton explaining the pricing confusion in his stores. 'We sell lots of stuff! Lots! Always changing too! Yep, competitors too!'

He didn't really say that. And he didn't have pricing confusion either. Smart guy.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868990#Comment_868990

But if we don't find a way to the future, the business will disappear as we are unable to acquire new customers.

What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

While I don't have an issue with subscription, I do think it puts undue pressure on Faithlife to get new customers, hence there is a large drive toward new features. Too many "old" existing features are being ignored that are incomplete, broken in some ways, being ignored when optimizations are needed, important bugs affecting usability, etc. And FL cannot current do both, there is currently too much pull for a much smaller base of employees given all the ventures subsidized by Logos/Verbum, and the desire to add as many new features as possible to keep new subs coming in. Fixing/enhancing/correcting/optimizing is just not a priority, and at least for awhile it needs to be.

Logos dearly needs a full release cycle, not a point release, a full release, to revamp/revise/correct. Remove or hide features that aren;t going to be supported, make the UI clean, quick and easy to use. Fix the important BUGS (some of which FL sees as features because they didn't intend to add them at the beginning, the problem is they hamper proper use of the software.)

Subscription is new - some will figure this out - some app firms will not, and the products will die when their bloated feature heavy products are no longer favored because the things real users needed to do their jobs were just ignored too long.

Mattillo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869051#Comment_869051

I would appreciate it if some time and effort could be put into vyrso. I've seen countless sales pass by with no effort to bring them to vyrso... Not to mention the quality of the books.

Vyrso doesn't have crazy complex pricing.

I understand and I apologize for trying to hijack the thread. I was just hoping Bob might see my comment and try to improve Vyrso

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868990#Comment_868990

the future (of all software) is a different market: subscription. Transitioning is hard and messy, and it disrupts both how we are used to doing business and the expectations of existing customers.

Alarming thought to many of us. I am not so concerned about the waste of money I have invested already when I could have merely subscribed, I am concerned about FL buying into that the future of software, "of all software" is subscription. I am not so sure that is true. Or if it is, that it is right for a company like FL. I am concerned less about the $$ involved as I am about the shift in philosophy and identity of the company.

The present fad in software profitability is the subscription model. Which makes sense--especially for many kinds of software, the kind of software that relies on new bells and whistles, quickly responding technology to other quickly changing technology. But how true is that for Bible software and media sales? Those who purchase Bible media are looking for some new stuff, but also the old truid and true. We have emotional investment, time investment in the actual products we buy. We aren't just using the product to produce something else like a service, or a movie or a photograph. We are using a very real product and pouring our hearts into that product itself. In some cases that isn't true--we don't get attached to a particular Webster's Dictionary. One is as good as another. But our notes and thoughts relative to a Bible of commentary are very different. A subscription loss of Webster's Dictionary might be a shoulder shrug, there are plenty in the world, but a loss of a book that deeply moves us, that we use in teaching or devotion is something we want to own--not have to subscribe to or lose.

I would never start down the road investing in such resources by subscription. Granted, my Logos library is a mix of such books, but because so many are of the "want-to-own" type, I prefer most or all of them that way.

Logos Now is a little different story for a "trial" customer, or a poor student, or someone who just likes the subscription idea with its advantages--and I bet there are a few like that out there. So keep it. It is good.

If FL leaps head-over heels into the subscription world, I can imagine well that profits will be predictable, regular, consistent. Such a model will also evolve a business model with diminishing interest in upgrading anything already sold or improving the quality of something of poor quality already sold. Profit is king! What will turn a profit now? It will be by marketing new stuff, more diversity, new bells, to new users. Old users--will they will probably buy a little too--actually they will just have to subscribe to anything new. And FL will start selling more of the stuff that stuff that sells by subscription, because subscribers will have less interest in the kind of stuff FL "used to sell" that had "ownership value."

The value of a subscription won't be equal to the value of a product owned. The constant threat of losing access when one had a lot of time and work invested such as notes, underlining, acquaintance with resources, is very different from someone who wants the latest gadget to make trash disappear in Photoshop.

If I had thought Logos was moving to a subscription model one day, I would never have began the journey with them, I would have looked for someone who gave me something that wouldn't be a forever unpredictable financial drain, leaving me with little or nothing if I couldn't pay the rent.

The old model of selling a product, creating a loyal customer base, adding media so they can buy more--it worked. It fit the kind of product FL marketed. Will subscription fit that product? OR will FL evolve into marketing products that fit the subscription model? What is FL's overarching philosophy? Build a business model and find product that fits it? Or believe in a product and create sustainable business model that markets that product?

I am sure the subscription model adds value and is just the thing some people want. So keep it. Just don't phase out the old way of selling books. I don't think Logos media and market are best adaptable to that. I am concerned that the subscription model will distort FL's leading vision and focus into something that I don't want and regret starting into.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869097#Comment_869097

Looks like this thread has gotten hijacked from it's original intended purpose a few times. I'll be back soon to comment on the topic (and thanks Bob for chiming in)... but in the meanwhile, let's keep this on the topic of the complexity of pricing, shall we? (or to put it simply- how confusing it is to buy) I realise people are passionate about subscription models and the state of the programs, but those really are a side issue and can be addressed in other threads.

I am now simplifying this thread Thanks.

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869097#Comment_869097

Edit: Removed long quote

Well said Gao [Y]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869122#Comment_869122

Wild Eagle, please. Did you have to quote the entire post to put a simple thumbs up? Are you trying to derail this thread? Please stay on topic. It makes it really hard to get a simple point across if this thread is more complex than Logos' pricing model.

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869122#Comment_869122

deleted by user

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869120#Comment_869120

Looks like this thread has gotten hijacked from it's original intended purpose a few times. I'll be back soon to comment on the topic (and thanks Bob for chiming in)... but in the meanwhile, let's keep this on the topic of the complexity of pricing, shall we? (or to put it simply- how confusing it is to buy) I realise people are passionate about subscription models and the state of the programs, but those really are a side issue and can be addressed in other threads.

The pricing is very confusing until you understand it, and then it can barely be called complex. The trouble is that lots of people don't take in pricing information well in the way that Faithlife provides it. I understand it just fine, and it makes perfect sense to me, but my experience isn't everyone's.

My advice to Bob would be to create a complete, comprehensible, and (for bonus points) visually attractive explanation of the entire FL pricing model that fits on, say, half of one 8.5x11 in. piece of paper if printed out at 100%, and with no font smaller than 12 pt.

And then put it somewhere on your website, after running it through the hyper-critical (in a good way, this time) forums.

(Also, those arguments over subscription models, etc. have been done to death in other threads. Death, I tell you, death.)

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869134#Comment_869134

Wild Eagle, please. Did you have to quote the entire post to put a simple thumbs up? Are you trying to derail this thread? Please stay on topic. It makes it really hard to get a simple point across if this thread is more complex than Logos' pricing model.

Sorry Joel, I removed the quotes. I am not derailing this thread. Subscription is under "Logos' pricing model".

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869139#Comment_869139

Thanks Wild Eagle

Actually, keep in mind this thread is not about anything related to pricing. It's about the complexity of buying. Your comments (although good) are best suited to another thread.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869139#Comment_869139

EDIT: Redundant because Joel posted faster than I did.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869145#Comment_869145

OKAY, bring this thread back on track…

Bob, the issue really doesn’t rest on what you’re offering. I’m sure that has a part to play, but the real issue stems from the fact I don’t think you guys have sat down and asked the question, “Is this as simple as it can be? Is it so complex it’s confusing our customers?” This thread is telling you no and yes to both of those questions. The finer detail about how to simplify is actually best left to you guys. I know what I would like to see, but when I sit down and think about it, I know I don’t have the whole picture. You do.

As mentioned, my confusion begins when I try and bring clarity to what Logos Now is offering me over Logos 7. It just isn’t clear. The website is overly wordy at times (it’s not direct enough in just telling me what it offers versus non subscription) and the faqs don’t answer my simple questions. To add to the confusion, there are so many tiny upgrade offers the waters get very muddy, very fast. I realise deals bring people to the table to buy, but that is definitely a tree that needs trimming. In fact it needs to be hacked away at

The website is also a confusing mess. You have multiple links from every page, and each page has limited links to another. Then you have popups that lead to unique pages that offer some deals other pages don’t. I also can’t find what I’m after without asking on the forum. How do I find the features only upgrade? When does the software only upgrade come out? I feel like someone hasn’t sat the web guys down and had a long chat about simplicity.

I don’t want to make it sound like you guys haven’t succeeded in simplifying things. You definitely have in some areas. You have taken a crazy huge catalogue and allowed flexible pricing and a subscription model to sit somewhat side by side in a table. That’s great. Where things have fallen down is in not thinking about about the customer journey, from your landing page through to purchase. Can a customer get lost along the way? Could someone get confused by the descriptions?

Take a look at the Bibleworks website. It looks like it’s from 1992, but at least in two seconds I can find a link to “What is bibleworks?” or “What is new in version 10.” On that page it tells me what’s new in version 10 of Bibleworks. I might say, “Yes, I like this and will upgrade.” Deal done. I still don’t know what the headline new features in 7 are. I couldn’t find them and a popup got in my way while I was looking. If I sent a friend who was new to bible study to Logos.com to buy (and I’ve considered it) they would give up and leave after 30 seconds. I guarantee it.

I hope I’m making sense here. I’m not just talking about a few tweaks to the website. If your web guys debate the point of reworking things for the sake of simplicity, get new web guys. Feel free to pm me if you’d like more detail about what I’m saying, but I’m happy to leave the ball in your court as to the ‘how’. I just hope I’m clear on the ‘why’.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869138#Comment_869138

The pricing is very confusing until you understand it, and then it can barely be called complex. The trouble is that lots of people don't take in pricing information well in the way that Faithlife provides it. I understand it just fine, and it makes perfect sense to me, but my experience isn't everyone's.

Separate pricing factors aren't exactly confusing by themselves. For example, I think anyone can figure out:

Bundle discount. You save money on the collection, versus buying the items separately.
Dynamic pricing discount. You don't pay for what you already own.
Introductory discount. You save x% for a temporary period of time.
Subscriber discount. You get y% off as a subscriber.
Special sales. You get z% off during the sale.

But the problem is that prices can include 3 or 4 or 5 separate discounts, which have to be calculated in a particular order, and the exact custom savings is not always broken down, line by line.

Some discounts appear to be combined, such as introductory and subscriber discounts. Others don't get applied consistently, or don't apply to every bundle (since some publishers prohibit bundling, dynamic pricing, or other discounts).

The more complex the savings, the more tedious it is to figure out by hand. Most people probably don't care to do the math, or even check the math.

Could Bob put the pricing formulas on a sheet of paper for everyone to see, learn, and understand? Sure.

But I don't want to have to whip out a calculator and figure out the math, just to determine which of two or three products is a better deal. It's difficult to do that, especially when we can make mistakes ourselves. If FL gives 4-5 discounts on an item, they should also show the line-by-line savings.

Frankly, the whole system seems to be based on inflated base prices, coupled with sales here and there to get a product's pricing down to where it might be reasonable. I would rarely buy a FL resource at regular price, but might buy a resource at 40-50% off, if it's not already available in a bundle (of many things I'd like) for 80-90% off. I'd rather see better everyday prices, than high prices offset by occasional sales, so I don't have to wait for eventual "sales" to get items on my wish list at a better price.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869145#Comment_869145

My post above was pulling the thread a new direction. I am sorry.

I do think the "transition," or bridge or cross-pollination of business models contributes greatly to the complexity. FL is working hard and well to provide us with packages, deals, sales and such. The complexity seems to be in getting the best buy and the annoyance at buying what we thought was a good deal, only to learn we could have had a better one.

All that is useless whining without a solution. My solution would be to....hmmm..what would it be?

1) Separate marketing between the models. Keep both, but don't try to make them overlap

2) Allow a hybid model, but rather than let a hybrid system evolve along moderately manipulated default patterns (and struggle along hoping it will somehow get better after the "transition is over--which probably won't happen soon), invest time to create a crisp clear model and market that.

Personally I think FL is doing a lot right. I like lots of options and they provide that. Lots of options might be mistaken for complexity when it is actually just a lot of options. The marketing doesn't seem designed to fool me into spending more than the cheapest deal I might ferret out. It is just...marketing and pretty good at that with dynamic pricing, notifications of packages that reduce prices, sales, and of course phone sales assistance.

Although the system will benefit from improvement, I am not sure it is all that bad. Overall it works pretty good for me.

Jan Krohn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869090#Comment_869090

I understand and I apologize for trying to hijack the thread. I was just hoping Bob might see my comment and try to improve Vyrso

[Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869152#Comment_869152

Sorry, Joel... I may be the one hijacking your thread. [:D] I can see this is going to get out of hand quickly... but...

“Is this as simple as it can be? Is it so complex it’s confusing our customers?”

Sure we have. We'd love to keep it super simple, but we feel compelled to add complexity in response to user demand. (We went too far, of course -- that's the point of this conversation.)

I realise deals bring people to the table to buy,

You're right. Personally, I love crystal-clear pricing. But the entire history of business, psychology, research, and experimentation has proven beyond doubt that $9.95 sells better than $10, that a $100 product for "$70 today! (almost everyday)" will dramatically outsell the same product for $70 every day, and that a value-meal bundle does better than selling burger, fries and drink alone. (c.f. JC Penney, Saturn cars, books on pricing, persuasion, etc.)

If I sent a friend who was new to bible study to Logos.com to buy (and I’ve considered it) they would give up and leave after 30 seconds. I guarantee it.

Try opening an incognito / private window and going to https://logos.com/7 as a new, not-logged-in user. Isn't that pretty clear? (But maybe not enough...)

(I'll be responding to other points in replies to other messages...)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869047#Comment_869047

I would appreciate it if some time and effort could be put into vyrso.

I love Vyrso -- I love that we can offer all those titles we otherwise wouldn't have working with Logos. But those are publisher-supplied EPUBs. We have to take them on the same financial terms as other ebook vendors, and in almost every case Amazon is selling those titles at or below our cost. (Amazon appears to use books as loss-leaders to win all your shopping business.)

We literally can not afford to invest much more in Vyrso -- a given title might generate as little as one-dollar per copy in gross profit for us, and that's before operating expenses. There are thousands of titles that sell very few units per year.

We are hoping to give the automated processing tools a little work to improve the tagging, but we're very much at the mercy of the files we're sent, and our system is not exactly like EPUB (which is HTML based, and has varying quality levels), which means the automated conversion sometimes has hiccups.

I did have a meeting a couple weeks ago where we agreed to give Vyrso some temporary resource help, but we'll need higher volume of sales to put much more into it. I'm sorry!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869084#Comment_869084

While I don't have an issue with subscription, I do think it puts undue pressure on Faithlife to get new customers, hence there is a large drive toward new features.

Actually, it's the opposite. When we have to sell transactionally -- once you buy we get no more revenue unless you upgrade / buy-again -- then there's pressure to keep making new features to get you to purchase.

If we go to subscription, there's an incentive to continue to improve and tune the existing product so that subscribers will continue.

The problem with our existing transactional model is that Logos 4 / 5 / 6 were 'all I needed' for many users. Yet our development costs, server maintenance, operating system compatibility, etc. continue as expenses. Maturing software becomes good enough, and over time people stop purchasing upgrades. (You may know someone on Microsoft Office 2007, for example. Or 2003.) But people expect patches, fixes, compatibility with their new mobile device, continued sync servers, etc.

That's the allure of subscription for the provider -- consistent revenue for ongoing expense... While I appreciate our long-time users (a lot!), more and more often I hear from someone who 'invested thousands in my library, so please fix this / help me / etc.' -- but whose last investment was 5+ years ago. (That didn't happen for the first five years...because math. :-) )

I get that if you invested thousands you may have all the books and functionality you need, and may even want the product to 'stop moving' so you can just master the tools you need each day. But if you want us to be here to update things for iOS 14 or Windows 12, we need to find a way to continue revenue.

(This is a bit hypothetical, but a bit real too -- we really are seeing this slowdown of happy users who spend less each year. I'm trying to plan ahead of the trend!)

Mattillo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869171#Comment_869171

We literally can not afford to invest much more in Vyrso -- a given title might generate as little as one-dollar per copy in gross profit for us, and that's before operating expenses. There are thousands of titles that sell very few units per year.

We are hoping to give the automated processing tools a little work to improve the tagging, but we're very much at the mercy of the files we're sent, and our system is not exactly like EPUB (which is HTML based, and has varying quality levels), which means the automated conversion sometimes has hiccups.

I did have a meeting a couple weeks ago were we agred to give Vyrso some temporary resource help, but we'll need higher volume of sales to put much more into it. I'm sorry!

Thank you Bob. I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I already have but I do want to comment on your reply. I wasn't clear enough in my first post and I apologize for that. My main concern is the quality of the Vyrso books. I don't mind paying more (and will gladly do so) to have a book in logos versus my Kindle. As long as you know there is a quality issue then that is good for me. My hope is that as logos expands maybe an employee can be dedicated to Vyrso and focus on QA for the products and getting issues flagged and fixed when they appear like missing heading text (ToC) and missing body text as well. I would think many issues could be alleviated if someone just looked at the books before shipping them. Again thank you for taking the time to respond to my concerns. I'll go away now

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869175#Comment_869175

Ok, I'm not Joel, but I decided to be a guinea pig on Logos.com/7.

First image is Safari. Couldn't read the text due to the forced popup ... no way to clear the popup. Guinea pig threw in the towel.

Second image is my browser that handles everyone ... except Logos.com/7. Guinea pig gave up. Bedtime.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869177#Comment_869177

Ok, I'm not Joel, but I decided to be a guinea pig on Logos.com/7.

Thanks Denise,

Please create a new post about this issue and let us know which exact device and iOS version you are using.

Jan Krohn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869171#Comment_869171

I did have a meeting a couple weeks ago where we agreed to give Vyrso some temporary resource help, but we'll need higher volume of sales to put much more into it. I'm sorry!

Thanks for the explanation, Bob. Actually, I don't complain about Vyrso as long as the resource in question has at least the same quality as a paper book. I don't mind missing ToC, wrong scripture tagging, and other minor issues, not because I wouldn't like to see them fixed, but because I haven't paid for them.

I can even understand that there isn't any quality control with the automated process, so it's up to us users to do the qc, and bring issues up here in the forum.

However, there have been major issues issues that render a book severely broken, or even totally useless, such as missing pages, missing images, gibberish in the content, title and blurb of another book than that which has actually been delivered.

I'd estimate that only about half of those issues were picked up and fixed.

Frankly, I would personally not invest more than about $5 or $10 in a Vyrso book because I might be wasting money for a broken book.

So maybe sales would increase if the customers can expect to receive a book that has at least the quality of a paper book?

Martin Folley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868990#Comment_868990

'Pricing os too complex ...'

I would also like to suggest transparency in pricing not just (not necessarily?) simplicity.

FL sometimes has some great deals ... but they are so difficult to find. If I looked at the FL site at the moment I could find many resources at 70, 80, 90% off. When I drill down it turns out that many of them have no sale whatsoever ... what is being offered as a sale is in fact simply that I already own the resources. This is further aggravated by the product page dynamic pricing imply (stating?) that what I already own equates to what you are generously giving back to me in your sale!!! Now I appreciate the policy, and think it right and proper within the context of bible study software ... but it does not have to be that the real discount is hidden by smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is that often I do not even bother looking ...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869202#Comment_869202

So Bob, no problem making this thread flex to answering things put to you

I think I can remember back to when complexity was a request by the community, but I believe the request was for more detailed information about packages, not more complexity in terms of the customer journey from website arrival to purchase. In regards to the practice of business sales, while I don't fully disagree with you on that point, can I direct you to a company like Apple that almost never has sales (sometimes they include products or vouchers for seasonal sales)- they retain immovable product prices. Yet, they sell things like crazy because of excellent marketing and a desirable product. As well of course, as solid customer support. Obviously they subscribe to some of what you mention pricing-wise, but they don't rely on quick and dirty price cuts to drive demand.

There is room for that crystal-clear pricing you mentioned. People will always buy if the product is good enough, the benefits (usually emotional) are communicated through compelling advertising and there is a simple path to make the purchase. When the pricing model confuses, or the website gets in the way (etc) you sell a great product short

With https://logos.com/7... here is my journey as a customer looking for what's new in Logos 7. Please compare this to the Bibleworks website that took one click.

- There's a popup on the page (over a video) that distracts me, that I quickly realise I don't need (that can be hard to close because the close button is almost the same colour as the video background). I wonder to myself if no one had tested the page. On an iPhone 7 Plus the popup covers basically the entire page.

- I scan down the page to see what's new. Everything is proceeded with text like, "Starting your study in Logos has never been easier. Jump right into your preferred workflow with customizable Quickstart Layouts." My brain immediately tunes out when I read this. I think, "Yes I know."

- There's text like, "Feature: Courses Tool, Quickstart Layouts" that makes no sense to me. I don't know why this is there. If I watch a video, there's lot of talking about bible study without a lot of dot point information I can grab a hold of. It's obviously a generic video about the software. So where do I go to find new features? It isn't obvious at this point.

- I hit a back button (after accidentally clicking on a link) and another popup appears asking me about deeper bible study. At this point I want to give up. I close it and go forward again.

- I finally find the link to what's new, about 3/4 of the way down the page. It was a fluke, being hard to see.

- Despite saying, "Check out all of the new features in Logos 7" the page is filled with many features from Logos 7, Now and the version I already have. To see what's new, I have to memorise the key at the top of the page (assuming I notice it, which I didn't at first because it was above the "Top New Features" headline) to figure it out.

- Even then I have to hit "Show More" to see all the features for a given topic. When I hit it, I don't know if I have to go back up to the start of the topic to read from the beginning again.

Basically I felt like I needed to work hard to find the information I was after. Popups got in the way. I had to search areas of the website (that were irrelevant to me) carefully for links or I would miss them. Even lumping the old features in with the new/improved/Now features and using a key made things feel confusing in my head.

It should be simple. A clear link to what's new. Show me what's new with Logos 7. Also show me what I would get with Now (since Logos 6 was released, or something). There's no need lump in the basic features. I can see them on the main page. All this doubling up of information across pages makes it hard to solidify what's what in my head- what is in every customer's head. Does this make sense? I hope so. This is just one example of looking for new features. It's even more complex when it comes to making a purchase.

Jan Krohn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/868990#Comment_868990

What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

Actually, your pricing is not so bad as the initial post suggests.

With base packages, extension packs, feature packs, Logos Now, Logos Cloud and individual titles, Logos is a crazy complex product (or range of products), so why should I expect pricing to be any less complex...?

So my following two suggestions are not related to the actual pricing model:

1. Communication: All the novelties that came with L7 are really great. I love them. I love the idea to split base packages into feature packs and libraries. I have a maths degree, so I could easily grasp the differences to the previous structures, and make use of all the advantages when conducting the purchase. But I can fully understand that many users have been frustrated at the lack of clarity on the Logos website and in the forums about how the price structure works, what's included in which purchase option, in what order to best purchase multiple packages/subscriptions...

2. Bugs: "Value if sold separately" needs to be fixed. "New to you" is needed for each and every bundle by default. etc. etc. etc.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869173#Comment_869173

I get that if you invested thousands you may have all the books and functionality you need, and may even want the product to 'stop moving' so you can just master the tools you need each day. But if you want us to be here to update things for iOS 14 or Windows 12, we need to find a way to continue revenue.

(This is a bit hypothetical, but a bit real too -- we really are seeing this slowdown of happy users who spend less each year. I'm trying to plan ahead of the trend!)

Bob, this is the issue I was getting at. I am one of these type of customers. I have a huge library and I am now at a point where my pace of purchasing new resources has slowed down. As you state, there are more and more of us due to the company and software now being around for a number of years.

What you are saying is that even if I buy no new resources from Logos for the next year, I am still costing Logos money due to maintenance of the data infrastructure and updating the software and resources - not to mention trying to keep pace with the ever evolving platforms i.e. tablets, smartphones, etc. Those of us who use Logos expect the software to work, expect our resources to be back in the cloud, expect bugs to get fixed, expect resources to get updated, and expect the apps to work on mobile devices. None of that is free. It must be paid for by some revenue stream.

Furthermore, when I purchase a car, I retain ownership of the vehicle, but I still must pay money for maintenance and upkeep. Getting my oil changed or new brakes is a small investment that I make because of the very large investment I made in the vehicle and my need to have the vehicle for my use every day. Home owners association fees are another example. They cover costs that protect everyone's investment. I view an annual subscription the same way. For instance, if $100 per year is the number, I would gladly pay that as a small investment in the large investment I have made in the software and my need to use it every day.

As long as I do not have to purchase resources again, I would be fine with a required annual subscription. I wonder if that might be the model you could move to: "Logos is $100 per year subscription plus the resources you purchase." If existing users choose not to pay the subscription, then they haven't lost their books or the software. They would just lose access to the Logos cloud infrastructure and all forthcoming bug fixes and updates. They can continue to use the software for years at no cost.

Again, as I said in my earlier post, if subscription is where you know things must go, then let's go there sooner rather than later and get it over with. I believe the overwhelming majority of us will understand and gladly participate. Thank you for a great, life and ministry changing product!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869239#Comment_869239

Greg, just adding to your thinking, would you have bought Logos if a $100 per year was a requirement? Vs Accordance or WordSearch (presumably Bibleworks)?

I don't doubt businesses by definition need to stay in business. But the subscription argument isn't vs Amazon Prime, but Logos' direct competitors. I think Phil made the better argument ... Now would be so attractive, you'd prefer it ... normal business thinking.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869239#Comment_869239

As long as I do not have to purchase resources again, I would be fine with a required annual subscription. I wonder if that might be the model you could move to: "Logos is $100 per year subscription plus the resources you purchase." If existing users choose not to pay the subscription, then they haven't lost their books or the software. They would just lose access to the Logos cloud infrastructure and all forthcoming bug fixes and updates. They can continue to use the software for years at no cost.

And what of the users who do upgrade each year, and already subscribe to Logos Now? Or is your $100/yr support contract only for people who don't upgrade and don't subscribe?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869254#Comment_869254

And what of the users who do upgrade each year, and already subscribe to Logos Now? Or is your $100/yr support contract only for people who don't upgrade and don't subscribe?

I was just throwing out an idea and a number for discussions sake. I know there are a host of issues and questions that I cannot even begin to ask, much less answer. Personally, I prefer the ownership model (after all, I have been in that since 2008 when I bought into Logos). However, I do see Bob's point and the reasons why they are taking the directions that they are.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/869249#Comment_869249

Greg, just adding to your thinking, would you have bought Logos if a $100 per year was a requirement? Vs Accordance or WordSearch (presumably Bibleworks)?

I don't doubt businesses by definition need to stay in business. But the subscription argument isn't vs Amazon Prime, but Logos' direct competitors. I think Phil made the better argument ... Now would be so attractive, you'd prefer it ... normal business thinking.

Good point, Denise. I do completely agree with you that the first issue is value for the dollars. For me as a long time user (since 2008) who has invested thousands of dollars, the continued viability of Logos is of great value to me in addition to any new versions or "bells and whistles." As to whether or not I would have bought into Logos in 2008 if there had been a required subscription, that is a tough answer. Knowing what I know now in terms of the value of Logos, the answer would be "absolutely." However, I didn't know the value of it (and its value has increased exponentially) when I bought it.