I'm upset with the new Logos 7.3 about information

Phil I appreciate the time you have put into your response but i fear you have missed the pointed.  A red cross sends a negative message.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

Disciple of Christ (doc) said:

Once again Faithlife treats its customer with no respect putting a big red cross against them because they haven't bought a Logos 7 library is appalling.

You're reading intent into the symbols that wasn't there. The question is whether the user is up to date in three different categories. The ✓ = yes; the x = no. That’s it. This is a common convention for communicating yes and no with symbols. Do you feel the symbols are less offensive in the software category? If the symbols were replaced with corresponding words, would you feel the same way? Or is it the fact that we’re raising the question of being up to date at all? I'm not discounting your feelings. I've already indicated earlier in this thread that we'll reconsider the symbols. (Do you have a proposal on a different set of symbols?) But there's really no disrespect intended. We're simply conveying facts here. There's no need to be embarrassed or feel diminished if you see an x. The benefit of the x (the concept, not necessarily the symbol) is that it might alert a user to something they didn't know before. This isn't aimed at those who frequent the forums and already have a pretty nuanced understanding of these categories. It's aimed at the majority of users who don't really understand the differences between the free engine, the feature set, and the library.

Phil a red cross is a negative symbol. For months you have been telling users its ok not to purchase a Logos 7 library, its ok to just purchase a feature set or a Logos Now Subscription with out library and then you come out with an image that sends a negative message to the customer.  I really don't know how you can think it is anything but a negative message to the customer. It sends the message to the customer something is wrong. This is in conflict with your previous message a Logos 7 library is not required. Simply not helpful,in fact it is a feel bad message - fell bad because you don't have a Logos 7 library  - you are missing out, you better buy a Logos 7 library so you don't miss out. There is not need to convey anything to the customer about their choice of whether to purchase a Logos 7 library based on your previous message to customers a Logos 7 library purchase is a personal choice.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

Disciple of Christ (doc) said:

The real truth is coming out in this comment, you just want to intrude further with your marketing.  We've given you a big fail mark against your account because you haven't spent enough money with us recently but if you'd like us to remove it, here's how you can do that by spending more money this way.  You are going beyond the helpful diagnostic information that Randy discusses.  This goes to the heart of a marketing team driven by worldly focussed marketing practices - lets tell the customers who haven' spent enough money with us they are bad - a big red cross on their software about page should do make that clear to them, and then once we got them feeling bad, lets provide a way for them to fix their failure by directing them how to spend more money with us.I wonder what Martin Luther would think.

That's just not the case. We're trying to provide helpful information so users can make informed decisions. Yes, we want to make sales. But we want to make sales because we believe we have a lot of value to provide to Bible students that's worth their money, and we want to do so in a transparent way that serves them by helping them make informed decisions. I made it clear in my previous comment that this will all be optional. If you prefer not to see missing functionality, you can turn it off globally. There's absolutely no requirement to spend money to turn off the upsell.

Phil as I have already saidi in response to your previous comments up until now you have told customers a Logos 7 library is an personal and optional choice so then why now send a negative message to customers who haven't purchased a Logos 7 library.  What you are doing is not helpful to the customer, its simply further confusing the message you have been communicating to the customer and trying to tell them they haven't made the right purchase choice by not buying a Logos 7 library - a read cross is a negative message - I would have thought that is a cultural universal in the West at least but I am not an expert so maybe I am wrong but in my experience it is a negative message, a chastisement even for getting something wrong.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

Disciple of Christ (doc) said:

Phil you used to be a customer like one of us, what has happened to you that you know think treating customers this way is an appropriate way to engage them and is somehow helpful to them.  Your customer base includes academics, pastors and theological students yet you seem to think treating them like children and red inking them is they way to communicate with them. Really disappointing stuff once again from the Faithlife Design and Marketing Teams.

I don't think I've changed. I'm still a champion for customers,

Phil I am sorry but whatever else you might do, when you are supportive of sending a very negative message like this to customers who have not purchased a Logos 7 Library after previously telling them they don't need to I am not convinced  you are a customer advocate.  A customer advocate would straight away recognise the issue I raise - you have previously told customers they don't need to purchase a Logos 7 library so why are we putting a red cross against that point when we told them is was not necessary.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

One thing that may be missing here is intended audience and context. We're aiming primarily at the tens of thousands of people who download our free engine and haven't bought a base package or in many cases spent any money with us yet. What we've done historically is hide features for which users don't have a license. IMO, that's not a particularly pro-user behavior.

Phil we are not talking about features of the  software we are talking about the fact you are making a negative judgment against the customer for not purchasing a Logos 7 library when previously you have told them they don't need to purchase one. 

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

If you have ideas on how we can do that better, we’d love to hear them.

Phil you can do it better by not using red crosse, these send a negative, judgemental message about what a customer might have decided not to purchase because they are trying to be a good steward of their money. Until you remove this negative marker you are going to alienate a bunch of customers  you say you are trying to 'help'.

Philana R. Crouch said:

Steve said:

I posted in a different thread before I saw this one ... thought it more appropriate here ....

I would also mention a more insignificant, but curious issue on the Info Panel header ... I use the Verbum-branded version of the software (v7), am a Verbum Now member, and I have the Verbum 7 Platinum Library.  Everything displays the Verbum branding except for the library.  It says Logos 7.  Seems like there may be a different level of precision in the display than there used to be.  I recall seeing Verbum Capstone in that header information prior to the v7 upgrade this fall.  Not sure what it said before this update.

This should be fixed in 7.3 SR-1 (7.3.0.0041)

Nice.  Thanks [:)]

I noticed yesterday that 7.3 SR-1 beach balled when I clicked about info on my Mac. I had to restart. I think this layer of functionality needs some clean up. Otherwise, I'm going to avoid it like the plague. I have 16GB of RAM so whatever it's supposed to do isn't what I'd expect on the stable channel

Mark Bernard said:

I mean why pay over what a book is worth just to have it on my computer?

In my own case, many of the books I use in Verbum would be very difficult for me to use either at all or in an efficient manner in print. They would also be very difficult to transport, especially in my pocket.

Mark Bernard said:

I would have though in today's climate of growing apostasy and general ignorance of the Word of God, making the price point competitive and accessible would have been, I would have thought, a solid priority.

So is staying in business.

Include the entire context of the paragraph when responding, I said I'm not against them making making money, but they need to make their product accessible. Included with that is the understanding that they need to make money, ergo  staying in business. Don't take a comment out of its literary context.

Robert M. Warren said:

Mark Bernard said:

I mean why pay over what a book is worth just to have it on my computer?

At the risk of sounding pedantic, I should point out that when an adult, not compelled by force, purchases a product for a price, that is what it's worth.

No, Its worth is in the total Market force of that product, not a subset of that total whole. Sure it would be more convenient for me to have the book from Logos so I can utilize the tags in it, and when you are talking 20-50 dollar singular purchases 10-40% (yes 40% in some cases) is not a huge difference , but when you add those percentage figures over a larger time period and higher product amounts that can be a substantial difference. Thankfully there are several alternatives for an ebook format I can take advantage of for many f the books I want so I will be taking advantage of those and take another look at Logos when they start to become more competitive on price point. 

Here's my main suggestions for how to tweak 7.3's about panel:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/134525/874084.aspx#874084 

For the library colored icons, you could include the color of the library level (bronze, silver, gold, platinum, etc.) then put the entire library name next to it (Logos 6 Platinum, Logos 7 Platinum, etc.).

For the features that customers don't own yet, is this similar to "locked books" in Libronix but extends to features/datasets?

I didn't see the red X since I (thankfully) have a Logos 7 library, but looks like it's another feature not fully implemented yet that could have been slightly clearer and maybe should have been released a little later. :-)

Priceless, Denise, simply priceless.  Made me laugh out loud - literally.

Denise said:

Hapax ... normally I'd agree. But in this case, Phil proposes to attach a label to the pastor's suit, saying 'We DO make better suits than you bought.'  It'll be a big motivator.

PetahChristian said:

Is it really that important to see how many libraries we own?

Must we find fault with FL for how they choose to market their product?

With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. James 3 9:10 NKJV

Thank you for the improvements. Still a s why you need to call out a user has a pre-Logos 7 library when at the time you released Logos 7 it was emphasised purchasing a Logos 7 Library was not necessary. The left hand at Logos continues to fail to talk to the right hand and so coflicting messages are sent to customers. 

Philana R. Crouch said:

Mike McKnelly said:

Brady I've been with logos since it came on a few floppy disks. I own over 1300 resources and purchased logos seven cross grade and am a logos now subscriber since its beginning. Yet it is implied in the above screenshot with the red X that I am a lower-class user because I don't have a logos seven library. I am a layperson and I choose to buy the books that I really need rather than ones that I will never look at. Please let me know your opinion on this issue.

This has been improved in 7.3 SR-3

Petah, Logos obviously has the right to sell trampolines along with HALOT, if they wish. Might be a bit messy for delivery, and customers might not appreciate it. But it is their right. Along with bronze non-standard prices.

Actually, we can all appreciate the new option promised by Phil not to display it (the About x's and o's, not the trampoline).

Clearly you have not read what I said, because the issue I raised was the inconsistency of the message they are sending customers.  You were toob interested in imposing your view upon me about advertising  than taking the time to clearly read what I had said. 

Just to repeat, in case you missed what I said above, I was raising a concern about inconsistent messages being sent to customers.The advertising issue was secondarv.

I don't understand why Logos can't show that I actually don't have just a basic starter package, but i actually have Logos 7 Standard Platinum in stead of Logos 7 Library.

But they can add the Explore more libraries to remind me that you can get a even bigger library..

Petah you are constantly complaining about the issues you see as important to you - long standing issues on the website that those of us who have been customers a lot longer than you don't make anywhere near the noise you do about those problems. You also regularly complain about issues with mobile Ed courses, but you then think you have the right to tell me to keep quite about issues that I see as important. You would not like it if every time you raised an issue about the website or mobile Ed, you were told if Logos did everything you insist they wouldn't be in business. So please start respecting we are all different and will all have issues that are of different significance to us. I will not drop this issue just because you tell me to lay off FL. And neither will I tell you to layoff FL because of your constant complaints about the website. 

PetahChristian said:

It seems that a "consistent" message would require FL to stop suggesting that people need to upgrade, since customers don't necessarily need new books and/or features.

While that is noble and customer-centric, FL isn't in the business of doing what's best for the customer. A recurring problem is that customers are still (happily) using L4/5/6 and not upgrading (yet possibly still needing support), which does have an impact on the business.

While you could (also) say that revenue is secondary, anything that affects the bottom line (such as not getting people to upgrade), hurts us customers as well as the employees and business.

P.S. If FL did everything we insisted they do, they probably still wouldn't be in business. I doubt that many of us have the skill, knowledge, and experience to successfully manage their business, yet we tend to give them grief when we disagree with what they do, even when it comes to something so insignificant as a check mark or an x.

Michael said:

I'm not very happy with the new information about my library

If the one-line library description said "You own 27 libraries," would that be better?

FL could even incentivize sales by adding some manner of achievements or badges to be earned that showed us (or others) how long one has been a customer, how many libraries/feature sets/upgrades/courses one has purchased, etc.

ok

Our dog is too snoozy, to angle his paws into this thread.  He can't count that high. Woof, woof.

But ignoring Logos hope to quietly move a store front into the software ( a la Olivetree), and recognizing coder hours are unlimited, I wish they'd add 2 columns in the library: date purchased, and package (or single vol). The current update column is good for a few days, but then scrambled. After that, where the books came from is anyones guess.

I'll leave the other questions to others, but...

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife) said:

How is this need not met by viewing this information on the website?

The About page within the application can be consulted offline.

DAL [Y] Me too! [;)]

Jason said:

DAL Me too!

😁

Well said Denise.