I'm upset with the new Logos 7.3 about information
I've been with logos since it came on a few floppy disks. I own over 1300 resources and purchased logos seven cross grade and am a logos now subscriber since its beginning. Yet it is implied in the above screenshot with the red X that I am a lower-class user because I don't have a logos seven library. I am a layperson and I choose to buy the books that I really need rather than ones that I will never look at. Please let me know your opinion on this issue.
Comments
- With regard to Features, I suggest:
- A red icon for those who have never bought a base package.
- An amber icon for those who own Feature Sets from L4 through L6 (or L7 starter).
- A green icon for those who have L7 feature set, or Logos Now.
- With regard to Library
- I'm not sure how helpful the current system is at all. Users who have L4 Portfolio have a better library than L7 Starter, so why should the L4 user have a red cross?
- If you want to colour-code it, it should be done on library size, but that would be decisive, and of little help.
- So, I would suggest removing this, and replacing it with an additional licencing panel (like the datasets list), that listed all your base packages — although I'm not personally convinced that a base package is necessarily more valuable than a bundle or large collection...
Mike I am also not that happy with this either, I have Logos 7 Standard Platinum. But the about info only gives me credit having a Logos 7 library.. For the longest time it just showed that I had Logos 6 Reformed Platinum at least this has been changed. I would like the software to reflect the current base package that I have upgraded to and paid for.
This is the 6th base package I have now and Logos / FL could at least acknowledge that yes you do have Logos 7 Platinum within the software.
L4 BS, L5 RB & Gold, L6 S & R Platinum, L7 Platinum, L8 Baptist Platinum, L9 Baptist Platinum, L10 Baptist Silver
2021 MacBook Pro M1 Pro 14" 16GB 512GB SSD, running MacOS Monterey iPad Mini 6, iPhone 11.
Mike, my apologies, but that is so funny. Usually businesses try to over-emphasize a customers love for their product. Logos really goes out of its way to insure you know you're NOT a Logos-lover. Unless you click that pretty blue link!
I'm guessing they'll give me a no-library, since my last package was asked to commit seppiku in the late 2009's.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
I get that the tone may be a bit off from a marketing point of view, but I'm struggling a bit to see the real problem here. The software version number is critically important. But that's pretty much it - the "about" doesn't even try to provide the information we'd need to track our purchases. It's basically performing the same function as the manufacturer's nameplate on a car; it's a shiny chrome symbol, so to speak, that you've purchased an expensive product from a "name brand" manufacturer.
Personally, I wish there were a good way to track purchases from within the application - perhaps by appending a "purchase date" field to each resource (in my perfect world, it would also have the purchase price too). But other than the version date, I view this as a digital marketing sticker slapped on the back of the product.
ADDENDUM:
I didn't see Phil's response before hitting "enter" on my post.
...We've found that the majority of customer think of Logos as one, unified thing. Many will download the free engine and not really understand that they're missing out on new features. Many who do a full upgrade don't understand that their upgrade includes a new library. These nuances are lost on many people, and our aim is to help people have a more precise understanding of what they have and don't have. ...
This seems like a reasonable thing for FaithLife to be concerned about.
.... We'd like to show more information than "pre-Logos 7." Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level. ...
That would seem helpful.
I have Verbum 7 Portfolio and this screen directs me to "Explore More Libraries" at the Verbum.com website but the only ones I don't have are the Spanish language ones. No habla.
EastTN, no offense, but you can't be among the living (joking). The SE on my new electric bicycle is absolutely critical. It means I have the best, and the hill is just too steep (the SE tried its best, but the rider might need to diet). Our electric wonder car is a complete waste, if we can't be reminded how smart we were (and wasted large amounts of mula).
I really think Christians (not referring to EastTN) like to play like they're not human, even though casual observation highlights women with their fashions, and men with their latest gadgets ... oh yes .... Logos7 Sapphire!!!
Logos would do well to reward the humans for buying so much stuff. Then they'll buy even more.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
. . .
Logos would do well to reward the humans for buying so much stuff. Then they'll buy even more.
The whole point, I imagine.
I want Logos/Verbum/Faithlife to survive and Bob to prosper so all the money I've spent won't go down the drain. So, I guess I'll have to accept the marketing.
...The SE on my new electric bicycle is absolutely critical. It means I have the best, and the hill is just too steep (the SE tried its best, but the rider might need to diet). Our electric wonder car is a complete waste, if we can't be reminded how smart we were (and wasted large amounts of mula).
Well, now that you put it that way ...
[:D]
I get that the tone may be a bit off from a marketing point of view, but I'm struggling a bit to see the real problem here. The software version number is critically important. But that's pretty much it - the "about" doesn't even try to provide the information we'd need to track our purchases.
I agree. I don't really care if it shows what libraries I own (though it would be nice and appease). What it should show is enough diagnostic information to be helpful: The software version and what features are enabled/disabled and the information to determine why.
What it should show is enough diagnostic information to be helpful: The software version and what features are enabled/disabled and the information to determine why.
We're working on some improvements for 7.4 that will show you specifically what functionality you're missing and what to do about it if you'd like to enable it. We also plan to have a setting that will allow you to disable it if you don't care to be reminded about missing functionality.
Well said Denise.
Mike, thanks for the feedback. And thanks for being a longtime customer! Our intent is not to make anyone feel like a lower-class customer. I'm sorry the design made you feel that way.
First, let me say that this is not the final design for this feature. We'd like to show more information than "pre-Logos 7." Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level. But we need a new web service to do that. We also realize that the binary green check-mark and red ex don't do justice to the nuance here. We'll give some more thought on how to modify this.
Second, let me clarify that what we're trying to do is serve customers. We've found that the majority of customer think of Logos as one, unified thing. Many will download the free engine and not really understand that they're missing out on new features. Many who do a full upgrade don't understand that their upgrade includes a new library. These nuances are lost on many people, and our aim is to help people have a more precise understanding of what they have and don't have. It's okay if you intentionally choose just to update the software, or the software and the features. Our aim is to help those who make the wrong choice out of ignorance or confusion.
Thanks for your feedback. We'll keep it in mind as we improve this.
Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level.
Ideally (imo), you'd show ALL owned library versions and levels. :-)
Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level.Ideally (imo), you'd show ALL owned library versions and levels. :-)
I can see that as being beneficial (not critical), I was about to write that it would be nice, but not on the about screen, until I discovered the amount of white space on that screen. They could probably fit 30 different packages in that space. [:)]
First, let me say that this is not the final design for this feature. We'd like to show more information than "pre-Logos 7." Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level. But we need a new web service to do that. We also realize that the binary green check-mark and red ex don't do justice to the nuance here. We'll give some more thought on how to modify this.
I'm not upset by the current choice, but if I was looking to improve it, I might suggest:
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
An amber icon for those who own Feature Sets from L4 through L6 (or L7 starter).
[Y] You own some features, but are missing other features. I think that's very sensible.
Currently, you have to understand what datasets are required for a tool to work. Users shouldn't need to know those details.
It would be helpful if people could easily see which tools would be new to them, so they could know what they'd need to buy/rent to get access to the tool(s) they want.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
What Faithlife is missing here: When a Customer has his or her needs met, it is all green for him or her, irrespective of whether how Faithlife wants to think about it.
Faithlife wanting to forcefully label a customer as 'lacking' is offensive. Simple state what the customer has without labelling it As lacking.
it is sad that Faithlife can trust its customers to use its sophisticated software but cannot trust them them to figure out they need a better set of features or library except by nagging them this way.
Here's my main suggestions for how to tweak 7.3's about panel:
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/134525/874084.aspx#874084
For the library colored icons, you could include the color of the library level (bronze, silver, gold, platinum, etc.) then put the entire library name next to it (Logos 6 Platinum, Logos 7 Platinum, etc.).
For the features that customers don't own yet, is this similar to "locked books" in Libronix but extends to features/datasets?
I didn't see the red X since I (thankfully) have a Logos 7 library, but looks like it's another feature not fully implemented yet that could have been slightly clearer and maybe should have been released a little later. :-)
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
Please let me know your opinion on this issue.
I think it is a poor choice of icons but have more important issues to spend my "upset" on [;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
If this is the case, then why let a red check mark bother you? You have spent your time and money building the library that suits your needs best, why let a silly red check mark worry you? You see no value in Logos 7, isn't that all that matters?
My Blog: Theological Musings
I think it is a poor choice of icons but have more important issues to spend my "upset" on
That pretty much sums it up for me too.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
Concerning the OP:
Please pardon my ignorance, but how do we get to see the information which the OP is upset about (i.e. the green ticks and the red cross)?
Director
Elyon Family Clinic & Surgery Pte Ltd
Singapore
Just saw it after seeing this Thread...cause I normaly never got to this Place "about"
OK there is a red Cross on Libary, So what? I know I don't have a L7 LIbary I have L6 Gold and LN that right for me and my Budget. Dit I feel bad if i see this red cross? Dit I feel like a Second Class Logos User? Not at all. I also don't feel like a Looser cause I'm still working with Word 2010 even if Microsoft reminds me that my Software is old...come one there is more in the World to be upset about as a red Cross.
BUT
a red Cross in my Software normaly tells me, that there is something broken or does'nt work anymore. So just remoove this red Cross would help.
a red Cross in my Software normaly tells me, that there is something broken or does'nt work anymore. So just remoove this red Cross would help
+1 [Y] for removing X; mock up of an empty circle shows something is lacking:
For customers that have free engine without any library purchase, then empty circle (or gauge) is more accurate.
Alternate circle idea is a gauge to show amount of available functionality: empty lacks a lot while Now membership is full. Gauge level for Cloud depends on subscription level.
For library, Full could be "Gem" equivalent (number of resources) => Suggestion: "Gem" superset of Base Packages that would be true for a number of forum posters that have many thousands of resources. If have only have free engine and free resources, then Library gauge is nearly empty (and searches can lack results). Portfolio package could be 3/4 full, which is substantial.
For this library, gauges show a number of features are unavailable plus number of resources in library could be noticeably increased.
Keep Smiling [:)]
Phil, Phil, Phil .... you're using Bob-ian logic. I'm completely up to date with no Now subscription. And I'm completely up to date with no L4, L5, L6, or L7 package ... and yes, I do have a fairly expensive library contra you guy's marketing.
You 'could' have put the latest software ship in parens like many, if indeed you were worried.
Now, personally, I've been laughing, because you guys turned a good user request (what do I have??) into a marketing gimmick.
I don't think so, but for Bible software, it sounds like revenues are suffering more than the rumors are. Looks like.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
KS4J, I like very much your brilliant proposal [Y][Y]
For red X items, it should flash and sound an alarm to make it even more obvious that you are missing out and need to spend more...[:P]
I'm just glad it doesn't push me towards buying a LN subscription [:P]
For red X items, it should flash and sound an alarm to make it even more obvious that you are missing out and need to spend more...
. . . and perhaps a link to apply for a new credit card [:O]
Ahhhhh - now I feel better.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
Love that beard!
Something like a loud beep..beep, with a soft glowing red flashing light coming from behind the help icon, while you are studying scripture?
Mike, I have been growing silently more and more disillusioned with Logos in General. Which is pretty sad since the software, in General is quite awesome, and I have been with it now for over 15 years, but the more I look the more I see many types of manipulative sales practice, charging for every byte of extra value that used to come really standard in the Library, the exorbitant pricing of books that are actually at least 10-15% over what I would pay for the physical product in my hands. There used to be solid reasons to stick solidly with Logos, now with an increasing in quality and ability of other software, (though not of course up to Logos Standards), there are now fewer reasons for me to stick with Logos, I mean why pay over what a book is worth just to have it on my computer?
Logos is a business, yes I know that, but pre-eminently they are a Christian Business who are peddling God's word, I am not against them making money, but I am against them bringing their price point that is out of the reach of many who sincerely want to study God's word, and I would have though in today's climate of growing apostasy and general ignorance of the Word of God, making the price point competitive and accessible would have been, I would have thought, a solid priority.
I mean why pay over what a book is worth just to have it on my computer?
In my own case, many of the books I use in Verbum would be very difficult for me to use either at all or in an efficient manner in print. They would also be very difficult to transport, especially in my pocket.
I would have though in today's climate of growing apostasy and general ignorance of the Word of God, making the price point competitive and accessible would have been, I would have thought, a solid priority.
So is staying in business.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
Include the entire context of the paragraph when responding, I said I'm not against them making making money, but they need to make their product accessible. Included with that is the understanding that they need to make money, ergo staying in business. Don't take a comment out of its literary context.
Logos is a business, yes I know that, but pre-eminently they are a Christian Business who are peddling God's word, I am not against them making money, but I am against them bringing their price point that is out of the reach of many who sincerely want to study God's word, and I would have though in today's climate of growing apostasy and general ignorance of the Word of God, making the price point competitive and accessible would have been, I would have thought, a solid priority. [my emphasis]
Mark, keep in mind Logos' competitors can offer books at lower prices, offer minister discounts, and stay in business. Logos can't. It's not an issue of the Church needing all the help they can get ... Logos is peddling as hard as they can ... datasets, need more datasets (definitely not 'more bell').
Yes, it's Christmas Eve and Santa may slide off our roof with all this Arizona snow.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
I mean why pay over what a book is worth just to have it on my computer?
At the risk of sounding pedantic, I should point out that when an adult, not compelled by force, purchases a product for a price, that is what it's worth.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
I mean why pay over what a book is worth just to have it on my computer?At the risk of sounding pedantic, I should point out that when an adult, not compelled by force, purchases a product for a price, that is what it's worth.
No, Its worth is in the total Market force of that product, not a subset of that total whole. Sure it would be more convenient for me to have the book from Logos so I can utilize the tags in it, and when you are talking 20-50 dollar singular purchases 10-40% (yes 40% in some cases) is not a huge difference , but when you add those percentage figures over a larger time period and higher product amounts that can be a substantial difference. Thankfully there are several alternatives for an ebook format I can take advantage of for many f the books I want so I will be taking advantage of those and take another look at Logos when they start to become more competitive on price point.
I've been with logos since it came on a few floppy disks. I own over 1300 resources and purchased logos seven cross grade and am a logos now subscriber since its beginning. Yet it is implied in the above screenshot with the red X that I am a lower-class user because I don't have a logos seven library. I am a layperson and I choose to buy the books that I really need rather than ones that I will never look at. Please let me know your opinion on this issue.
This has been improved in 7.3 SR-3
This has been improved in 7.3 SR-3
Where are my features ? Please fix my Features to be like Base Package Library:
Logos 7 Starter Feature Set shows stuff owned and 68 % off for Dynamic Sale Price
Here's a dumb question. How do I find this "About" screen in the first place? [:$]
The red x doesn't bother me. It's a fairly conventional symbol to denote an absence. I don't internalize it as being a commentary about me as a person. [:P]
This has been improved in 7.3 SR-3Where are my features ? Please fix my Features to be like Base Package Library:
Word Explorer,
This was just fixed in 7.4 RC 2, and will ship to all users next week.
It says I have a verbum 7 package and feature set.
However the L7packages I have purchased are Baptist silver, methodist bronze, and orthodox bronze.
No verbum since six when someone offered me a good deal on a middle sized package.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
Thank you for the improvements. Still a s why you need to call out a user has a pre-Logos 7 library when at the time you released Logos 7 it was emphasised purchasing a Logos 7 Library was not necessary. The left hand at Logos continues to fail to talk to the right hand and so coflicting messages are sent to customers.
Brady I've been with logos since it came on a few floppy disks. I own over 1300 resources and purchased logos seven cross grade and am a logos now subscriber since its beginning. Yet it is implied in the above screenshot with the red X that I am a lower-class user because I don't have a logos seven library. I am a layperson and I choose to buy the books that I really need rather than ones that I will never look at. Please let me know your opinion on this issue.
This has been improved in 7.3 SR-3
purchasing a Logos 7 Library was not necessary
While it may not be necessary to purchase one, selling new libraries is one of the ways that FL pays the bills.
We'd probably agree that FL has the right to promote their products within their program. Given that, the About screen is the least obnoxious place to do it.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
Petah, Logos obviously has the right to sell trampolines along with HALOT, if they wish. Might be a bit messy for delivery, and customers might not appreciate it. But it is their right. Along with bronze non-standard prices.
Actually, we can all appreciate the new option promised by Phil not to display it (the About x's and o's, not the trampoline).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
Clearly you have not read what I said, because the issue I raised was the inconsistency of the message they are sending customers. You were toob interested in imposing your view upon me about advertising than taking the time to clearly read what I had said.
Just to repeat, in case you missed what I said above, I was raising a concern about inconsistent messages being sent to customers.The advertising issue was secondarv.
Mike,
Thanks for the post. I have another problem with the 7.3 info.
The information shown should be as accurate and truthful as possible.
In the third section, the most accurate information for me is to "You used to own Logos 7 Gold library but you don't any longer."
I purchased the Logos 7 Gold library in September 2016.
Now I can purchase the Logos 7 Gold library AGAIN for an extra $418.
Or am I upgrading from Gold to Gold?
Stephen Miller
Australia
I agree. It's annoying, plus it shows less info than before. Previously it showed the largest library purchased, now it's just a binary value: L7 library or not. Neither way is useful--they need to show a list of libraries.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
ok
If the one-line library description said "You own 27 libraries," would that be better?
FL could even incentivize sales by adding some manner of achievements or badges to be earned that showed us (or others) how long one has been a customer, how many libraries/feature sets/upgrades/courses one has purchased, etc.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
The ownership information on the About page is intended to fulfill two purposes.
First, it is a quick way to summarize for someone trying to provide support (whether in an official capacity or via peer assistance on these forums) what functionality a user should expect to see. This works well, because features are not generally sold individually, but in packages of increasing tiers of functionality.
Second, it provides a way for many users who are not overly familiar with the current state of the software package(s) to learn about functionality that they don't have, but may appreciate.
It's very apparent that the second use does not apply to you, but the first use can be very applicable if you are asking for help (not for your benefit, but for the benefit of those trying to help).
This information is not (and never has been) intended to be a listing of your complete ownership. The account information on the website is meant to serve this purpose.
I'm sorry that the current design doesn't work for you. I'll be sure to pass along your feedback to the design team.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
ok
I apologize if my earlier explanation was clear enough. I don't think there is any concern about revealing what has been purchased. All I'm saying is the the goal of this feature is not to indicate how many library packages have been purchased over time. The goal (or at least one of the two goals I mentioned above) is to help indicate what features the user can expect to function in the application.
If a customer asked "Why can't I see the Sermon editor?", someone can easily answer that by seeing that their About page indicates that they have a "Pre-Logos 7 feature set".
Knowing which library packages have been purchased over time is almost never significant in understanding what features are or are not available in the application, and there are far too many different library configurations and combinations for this type of information to be generally useful in tracking down problems. That's part of the reason why we don't list more information on the About page about library ownership. The information there is meant to convey information that affects the application configuration.
Can you help me understand the benefit in listing all of the purchased packages on the About page? Does this mean it's useful to see other purchases there too? Why or why not? How is this need not met by viewing this information on the website?
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
Simple ides for Library is GB's that would be helpful when shopping for storage. Dreaming of GB's per resource edition (Logos, eBook, Personal) plus GB's of Documents.
Perhaps a resource could be created for each customer that has order history, which is usable offline. Awesome would be way to see what was new for each purchase (could be online only).
Keep Smiling [:)]
I get the GB-EBs whenever I launch Logos. [:)]