Eastern Orthodox mystics

Would purchasing these two books/resources be congruent to Eastern Orthodox mysticism, spirituality or the contemplative life style?
Just want to figure out the "intouch" or inner life of the Orthodox way of living.
Here are the two resources:
Would these be compatible to the Philokalia?
The Fathers of the Desert (2 vols.)
Early Egyptian Monasticism Collection (5 vols.)
mm.
Comments
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Both collections include material which has been influential on the "contemplative live" and so Mysticism. But reading about it is a far cry from any understanding of it - and I will not claim to really understand it myself.
Much better, I think, would be to arrange a guest visit for a few days with a contemplative community. No, they will not be able to instantly answer all your questions, but it is a much better way to get in touch with the contemplative live - and I say this having just returned from a day and half with some Benedictines...
After such a visit is when some resource recommendations would make more sense.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
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This one...
has selections taken from the Philokalia which will give you a pretty good idea of Eastern Orthodox Spirituality.
The Fathers of the Desert (2 vols.) is primarily short biographies with quotations here and there.
Early Egyptian Monasticism Collection (5 vols.) is mostly history/biographical as well, other than
Fifty Spiritual Homilies of St. Macarius the Egyptian
and
The Rules of Pachomius
which give some actual writings of Macarius and Pachomius but neither of these are probably going to get you what you're looking for.
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Also if you're looking for a good overview of Mystic writings from the East this book (not yet available from Logos)
is probably the best on the subject. And you can determine where each author is from and whether they would fit in the Eastern category (since the book covers all of those traditionally associated with Mysticism and not just the Eastern)
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Milkman said:
Would purchasing these two books/resources be congruent to Eastern Orthodox mysticism, spirituality or the contemplative life style?
Yes, substantially, although I would recommend reading The Wisdom of the Desert first or instead.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Then, while it is a biit broader, there is always Classics of Western Spirituality Bundle (126 vols.)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Oxford Studies in St. Symeon the New Theologian(2 vols.)
This unfortunately has not been released but is one of the more important Mystical writers of the Orthodox faith. I have of course read him in the Philokalia and some of his works elsewhere... I wish there were more available by him in Logos.
-Dan
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James Taylor said:
McGinn is one of my favorite writers on Christian mysticism. I have asked for his multi-volume history of Christian mysticism multiple times. The first volume is The Foundations of Mysticism: Origins to the Fifth Century (The Presence of God: A History of Western Christian Mysticism, Vol. 1)
Actually the first volume or two apply equally to Orthodox or Catholic.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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You may also find this set helpful:
https://www.logos.com/product/49432/orthodox-spiritual-heritage-collection
Here is another edition, on Logos, of the Philokalia. Not sure the content is identical to the other on-line sellers edition or the other Logos resource mentioned above.
https://www.logos.com/product/45046/the-philokalia-a-classic-text-of-orthodox-spirituality
Maybe Gabe will chime in and provide some recommendation.
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Steve said:
Maybe Gabe will chime in and provide some recommendation.
Gabe is no longer with Faithlife.
Steve said:is a book about the philokalia rather than the Philokalia anthology itself.
https://www.logos.com/product/49432/orthodox-spiritual-heritage-collection While I am a fan of SkyLight Paths, they are generally heavily condensed and well annotated introductory texts.
Most of the authors that come to mind are stuck in pre-pub - Ephrem the Syrian, Gregory Palamas, John Climacus, John Cassian ... The Works of Dionysius the Areopagite (2 vols.) is actually available; should we recommend Select Works of St. Athanasius (4 vols.) by Athanasius of Alexandria? he Fathers of the Desert (2 vols.) or The Wisdom of the Desert by James O. Hannay are useful but are they a good starting point?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Years ago I read some of the mystics, and read a lot about the mystics. But in visiting a contemplative community, I found the vast difference between "book study" of it and witnessing it. It is almost like reading a book about breathing and breathing itself...
That said, some very interesting resources have been suggested in this thread.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Okay, I've researched some Orthodox sources I trust.
the williard preacher site:
Reading List
The following is a list of books that many have found to be beneficial. Hopefully it will be added to from time to time.
History and Theology
The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine (Volumes 1-5)
by Jaroslav PelikanOrthodox Dogmatic Theology
by Father Michael PomazanskyGenesis, Creation and Early Man
by Father Seraphim RoseOrthodoxy and the Religion of the Future
by Father Seraphim RoseThe Soul After Death
by Father Seraphim RoseGod’s Revelation to the Human Heart
by Father Seraphim RoseThe Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church
by Father Seraphim RoseThe Holy Fathers of Orthodox Spirituality (Part II): How to Read the Holy Fathers
by Father Seraphim RoseNihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age
by Father Seraphim RoseThe Rush to Embrace
by Archpriest Alexey YoungUltimate Things: An Orthodox Christian Perspective on the End Times
by Dennis E. EnglemanPopes and Patriarchs: An Orthodox Perspective of Roman Catholic Claims
by Michael WheltonAn Unbroken Circle: Linking Ancient African Christianity to the African American Experience
edited by Father Paisius AltschulThe Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church
by Vladimir LosskyLife After Death: Metropolitan of Nafpaktos
by HierotheosEcclesiastical History
by Eusebius PamphilusSaint Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite: Metropolitan of Nafpaktos
by HierotheosThe Truth of our Faith
by Elder Cleopa of RomaniaAn Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith
by St. John of DamascusMary The Mother of God: Sermons by Saint Gregory Palamas
edited by Christopher VeniaminThe Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami?
by David Bentley HartSpiritual Life
Monastic Wisdom: The Letters of Elder Joseph the Hesychast
St. Anthony’s Greek Orthodox MonasteryCounsels From the Holy Mountain: Selected From the Letters and Homilies of Elder Ephraim
St. Anthony’s Greek Orthodox MonasteryElder Arsenios the Cave-Dweller (1886-1983): Fellow Ascetic of Elder Joseph the Hesychast
by Monk Joseph DionysiatisAbbot Haralambos Dionysiatis: The Teacher of Noetic Prayer
by Monk Joseph DionysiatisSt. Andrew the Fool For Christ’s Sake
by Priest NikephorusSt. Silouan the Athonite: Archimandrite Sophrony
Wounded by Love: The Life and Wisdom of Elder Porphyrios
published by Denise HarveyFather Arseny (1893-1973): Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father
translated from the Russian by Vera BouteneffFather Seraphim Rose – His Life and Works
by Hieromonk DamasceneThe Philokalia (Volumes 1-4)
compiled by St. Nikodimos of the Holy Mountain and St. Makarios of CorinthWritings From the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart
translated by E. Kadloubovsky and G.E.H. PalmerThe Ladder of Divine Ascent
by St. John ClimacusOn Ascetical Life: St. Isaac of Nineveh
translated by Mary HansburyLittle Russian Philokalia, Volume 1: St. Seraphim
translated by Father Seraphim RoseThe Sayings of the Desert Fathers
translated by Benidicta WardThe First Created Man: St. Symeon the New Theologian
translated by Father Seraphim RoseThe Way of the Pilgrim and The Pilgrim Continues His Way
edited by New Sarov PressWe Shall See Him as He Is
by Archimandrite SophronyThe Deification as the Purpose of Man’s Life
by Archimandrite George of St. Gregorios of Mt. AthosExperiences of the Grace of God
by Archimandrite George of St. Gregorios of Mt. AthosA Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain
by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos – HierotheosPrecious Vessels of the Holy Spirit: The Lives and Counsels of Contemporary Elders of Greece
by H. MiddletonObedience Is Life: Elder Ephraim of Katounakia
by Elder Joseph of VatopaidiAvvakum the Barefoot
by Monk Theodoretos the HagioriteElder Joseph the Hesychast: Struggles – Experiences – Teachings
by Elder Joseph of VatopaidiThe Illness and Cure of the Soul in the Orthodox Tradition: Metropolitan of Nafpaktos
by HierotheosThe Life of St. Anthony the Great
by St. AthanasiusThe Life of St. Mary of Egypt
by St. Nectarios PressElder Paisios of the Holy Mountain
by Priestmonk ChristodoulosGod’s Fools: The Lives of the Holy “Fools for Christ”
by Bishop Varlaam NovakshonoffThe Divine Flame – Elder Porphyrios – Lit In My Heart
by Monk AgapiosCounsels For Life
from the Life and Teachings of Father Epiphanios TheodoropoulosApostle to Zaire: The Life and Legacy of Blessed Father Cosmas of Grigoriou
by Demetrios Aslandidis and Monk Damascene GrigoriatisThe Arena: An Offering to Contemporary Monasticism
by Bishop Ignatius BrianchaninovIn the Heart of the Desert: The Spirituality of the Desert Fathers and Mothers
by John ChryssavgisThe Fathers of the Church
by Saint Gregory the Great DialoguesLife – Miracles – Prophecies of Saint Seraphim of Viritsa
translated from Greek by Father Nick PalisUnseen Warfare
by Theophan the Recluse
edited by Nicodemus of the Holy MountainSt. Cosmas Aitolos
by Constantine CavarnosFrom Glory to Glory
by St. Gregory of NyssaConsoler of Suffering Hearts – The Life, Counsels and Miracles of Eldress Rachel, Visionary of Russia
Archpriest Sergei LebedevWe Shall See Him As He Is
Archimandrite SophronyOn the Mystical Life – The Ethical Discourses (Vol. 1): The Church and the Last Things
St. Symeon the New TheologianHymns on Paradise
St. Ephrem the SyrianThe Discourses
St. Symeon The New TheologianOn God and Man: The Theological Poetry of St. Gregory of Nazianzus
Gifts of the Desert: The Forgotten Path of Christian Spirituality
Kyriacos MarkidesShepherd of Souls: The Life and Teachings of Elder Cleopa
Archimandrite Ioanichie BalanThe Mountain of Silence: A Search for Orthodox Spirituality
by Kyriacos C. MarkidesThe Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Pauses
by Dionysios FarasiotisGuidance Toward Spiritual Life: Saints Barsanuphius and John
On the Prayer of Jesus
Ignatius BrianchaninovContemporary Ascetics of Mount Athos (Vols. 1 & 2)
Archimandrite CherubimThe Evergetinos (Vol. 1)
Becoming Orthodox
Thirsting For God in a Land of Shallow Wells
by Matthew GallatinBecoming Orthodox
by Peter E. GillquistNon-Orthodox Writings
Orthodoxy
by G.K. ChestertonThe Everlasting Man
by G.K. ChestertonMere Christianity
by C.S. LewisScrewtape Letters
by C.S. LewisThe Abolition of Man
by C.S. LewisThe Chronicles of Narnia
by C.S. LewisThe Great Divorce
by C.S. LewisMiracles
by C.S. LewisA Grief Observed
by C.S. LewisThe Hobbit
by J.R.R. TolkienThe Lord of the Rings
by J.R.R. TolkienAnimal Farm
by George OrwellBrave New World
by Aldous HuxleyJourney Into the Mind of an Islamic Terrorist
by Mark A. GabrielLord of the Flies
by William GoldingWhat’s So Great About Christianity
by Dinesh D’SouzaOne Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich
by Alexander SolzhenitsynAnswering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins’ Case Against God
by Scott Hahn and Benjamin WikerThere is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind
by Antony FlewBlack Like Me
by John Howard GriffinOn the sequence of reading the Philokalia a.k.a. where to start with the original works from which the Philokalia draws.
Fr. Maximos' Reading List
Some of you have inquired about Fr. Maximos' suggested order to reading the Philokalia. Rather than respond individually, I'm posting it here as it was distributed to us. Just a note: for my class, I reversed the first two readings and started with the general introduction, the went into the text he mentions first (“Guarding the Mind and the Heart”). It has worked out just fine.I am deeply indebted to Fr. Maximos for his presentations. When it comes to prayer, I need all the help I can get.☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦FR. MAXIMOS (CONSTAS)THE TRADITIONAL PATH OF ENTRY INTO THE PHILOKALIABefore reading any of the works in the Philokalia, it will be helpful to read the following two items. The first is St. Nikodemos’ outstanding summary of all the principle doctrines and practices that the reader will encounter on the traditional path of entry into the Philokalia. The second is his Introduction to the Philokalia, which was omitted by the English translators.St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, “Guarding the Mind and the Heart,” in id., A Handbook of Spiritual Counsel, trans. P. Chamberas (New York, 1989), 153-172.St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, “Introduction to the Philokalia,” trans. C. Cavarnos, The Philokalia, vol. 1 (Belmont, 2008), 27-40.* The following works constitute the traditional path of entry into the Philokalia. When read in this order, they gradually and wisely initiate the reader into the practices of inner attention, spiritual sobriety, and the Prayer of the Heart. Moreover, they amply demonstrate the Biblical and Patristic foundations of these practices, as well as their direct connection to the sacramental life of the Church. Because the mind must first be recalled from its many distractions, these works encourage the practitioner to use the breath as a way to lead the mind to the heart, and from there to invoke the name of Jesus Christ. Having read and understood the basic principles and practices presented in these works, one may afterwards move more freely throughout the other works in the Philokalia.1. St. Nikephoros the Hesychast, On Watchfulness and the Guarding of the Heart2. Saints Kallistos and Ignatios, Directions to Hesychasts (WfPh, pp. 164-270).3. St. Hesychios, On Watchfulness and Holiness (EPh 1:162-198).4. Evagrios, On Prayer (EPh 1:55-71).5. A Discourse on Abba Philemon (EPh 2:344-357).6. St. Symeon the New Theologian, On Faith (EPh 4:16-24).7. St. Symeon the New Theologian, The Three Methods of Prayer (EPh 4: 67-75).8. St. Gregory Palamas, In Defense of Those who Devoutly Practice a Life ofStillness (= Triads 1.2) (EPh 4:332-42).9. St. Gregory of Sinai, On the Signs of Grace and Delusion (EPh 4:257-86).*EPh = The Philokalia, vols. 1-4, translated by G.E.H. Palmer, P. Sherrard & K. Ware (London, 1979-1995). The 5th and final volume, containing the works of Ss. Kallistos & Ignatios and other writers, hasWfPh = Writings from the Philokalia on Prayer of the Heart, translated from the Russian text by E.Kadloubovsky & G.E.H. Palmer (London, 1951).Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thank you for this discussion and some great recommendations on the topic of mystics. This has been an interest of mine for many years.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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i'm guessing this is a little OT, but I'm looking forward to the Eerdman's Orthodox/Spirituality bundle getting ready to ship. I am not sure any of the authors are classified as Mystics (although the titles might suggest it?!) but the books look awesome. I include the link above incase of interest to you
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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-Friedrich said:i'm guessing this is a little OT
I can't resist. And yes, I am looking forward to this collection despite it's Russian Orthodox bent (my least favorite of the Eastern Orthodox flavors) but given the authors in this collection:
OrthodoxWiki said:Official Pronouncements Condemning Sophianism
Decree of the Moscow Patriarchate
- "By our decision of 24 August, 1935, No.93 it was determined:
- i) The teaching of Professor and Archpriest S.N. Bulgakov -- which, by its peculiar and arbitrary (Sophian) interpretation, often distorts the dogmas of the Orthodox faith, which in some of its points directly repeats false teachings already condemned by conciliar decisions of the Church, and the possible deductions resulting from which could even prove dangerous to spiritual life -- this teaching is to be recognized as alien to the Holy Orthodox Church of Christ, and all its faithful servants and children are to be cautioned against an acceptance of this teaching.
- ii) Those Orthodox Reverend Archpastors, clergy and laity who have indiscreetly embraced Bulgakov's teaching and who have promoted it in their preaching and works, either written or printed, are to be called upon to correct the errors committed and to be steadfastly faithful to "sound teaching"."
Decree of ROCOR
Decision of the Bishops' Council of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad of the 17/30 October 1935 concerning the new teaching of Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov on Sophia, the Wisdom of God:
- "i) To recognize the teaching of Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov on Sophia the Wisdom of God as heretical.
- ii) To inform Metropolitan Evlogy of this Decision of the Council and to request that he admonish Archpriest Bulgakov with the intention of prompting him to publicly renounce his heretical teaching concerning Sophia and to make a report about the consequences of such admonition to the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
- iii) In the event that Archpriest Bulgakov does not repent, the present Decision of the Council which condemns the heresy of Sophianism is to be made known to all Autocephalous Churches."
The 1935 decision of the Church Abroad was based on Archbishop Seraphim (Sobolev) of Boguchar’s Novoe uchenie o Sofii (Sofia, 1935), as well as on the arguments of St. John (Maximovitch). St. John, in his book The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God, discusses at length why the sophianism of Sergius Bulgakov is heresy, specifically one as destructive as Nestorianism. Speaking of those who attempt to deify the Theotokos, he wrote:
[quote]In the words [of Fr. Sergius Bulgakov], when the Holy Spirit came to dwell in the Virgin Mary, she acquired "a dyadic life, human and divine; that is, She was completely deified, because in Her hypostatic being was manifest the living, creative revelation of the Holy Spirit" (Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov, The Unburnt Bush, 1927, p. 154). "She is a perfect manifestation of the Third Hypostasis" (Ibid., p. 175), "a creature, but also no longer a creature" (P. 19 1)....But we can say with the words of St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" (Panarion, "Against the Collyridians"). This Holy Father accuses those who give Her an almost divine worship: "Let Mary be in honor, but let worship be given to the Lord" (same source). "Although Mary is a chosen vessel, still she was a woman by nature, not to be distinguished at all from others. Although the history of Mary and Tradition relate that it was said to Her father Joachim in the desert, 'Thy wife hath conceived,' still this was done not without marital union and not without the seed of man" (same source). "One should not revere the saints above what is proper, but should revere their Master. Mary is not God, and did not receive a body from heaven, but from the joining of man and woman; and according to the promise, like Isaac, She was prepared to take part in the Divine Economy. But, on the other hand, let none dare foolishly to offend the Holy Virgin" (St. Epiphanius, "Against the Antidikomarionites"). The Orthodox Church, highly exalting the Mother of God in its hymns of praise, does not dare to ascribe to Her that which has not been communicated about Her by Sacred Scripture or Tradition. "Truth is foreign to all overstatements as well as to all understatements. It gives to everything a fitting measure and fitting place" (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov).
But, yes, I think it is safe to say this are not major Eastern Orthodox mystic documents - however, that is not to says we should not consider the authors themselves as mystics.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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thanks, MJ. interesting. I decided to search the internets and came on this blurb in the Wikipedia article on him:
Fr. Sergei's reply and the episcopal conference, 1937[edit]
Bulgakov responded to the heresy accusation in his Dokladnaia zapiska Mitropolitu Evlogiiu prof. prot. Sergiia Bulgakova (Paris, 1936). Archbishop Seraphim then rebutted Bulgakov in his Zashchita sofianskoi eresi (Sofia, 1937). No final report was prepared on the sophiology controversy by the commission set up by Bulgakov’s own jurisdiction. However, Metropolitan Evlogy convoked a bishop’s conference on 26–29 November 1937 to bring closure to the matter. The bishops in their statement were working from reports by Archimandrite Cassian (Bezobrazov) and Chetverikov and they concluded that the accusations of heresy against Bulgakov were unfounded but that his theological opinions showed serious flaws and needed correction.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I ordered The Foundations vol 1 & 2 during this OP and am excited (always love to get new books) to say that both have arrived at the books store.
Thanks again.
MJ. Smith said:James Taylor said:McGinn is one of my favorite writers on Christian mysticism. I have asked for his multi-volume history of Christian mysticism multiple times. The first volume is The Foundations of Mysticism: Origins to the Fifth Century (The Presence of God: A History of Western Christian Mysticism, Vol. 1)
Actually the first volume or two apply equally to Orthodox or Catholic.
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I'm sure you'll enjoy them - a part of church history that's important but often skipped over.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Congrats Milkman for abandoning your Reform Baptist beliefs and joining Rick Warren and others like him for signing up with RCC's and EO's and their beliefs completely dissolving the Reformation. Apostasy at its finest.
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James please re-read the forum guidelines and accept the fact they apply to you like everyone else. Because you have crossed the line into personal attacks I have reported your post as abusive.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi, I'm new to this forum. I've been doing research on the fifth book of the Philokalia and I found your posts. You all seem very knowledgeable on the topic of Eastern Orthodox Mysticism so this seems to me a very safe place to ask this question. Has anyone else had the same experience I've had? let me explain just a little bit.
I grew up in an Assemblies of God church, the Full Gospel Tabernacle with an excellent pastor, Tommy Reid. 35 years ago I attended bible school (Elim University) there and was in a class with Rev. Mark Virkler. He gave me book called "Centering Prayer" by M. Basil Pennington.
I read the book, practiced the Christian meditation techniques daily as I earnestly sought God. One day, as I was kneeling in my closet in the dark reaching out to God, I had an experience. It lasted a fraction of a second. It was by far the most powerful feeling I've ever felt, nothing in my life prepared me for this. Ecstasy, purpose, clarity, unconditional Love, unimaginable power, and the most intense love for Jesus that I've ever felt. I knew there was no way this came from me.
I tried to make it happen again, a month later it happened and stayed a little longer. I continued this throughout my life and rarely ever told anyone about it. It is my constant companion now. So I wanted to know if anyone else has experienced this? A couple years ago I found out about the Philokalia and it was a revelation to me. It was like the instruction manual I've been missing all these years. And I finally found a name for this experience, Uncreated Light.
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I cannot say that I have been blessed with the Beatific Vision like you describe. I would strongly suggest you find some sort of Spiritual Director to help direct you in your journey, so that such experiences may continue to enpower your journey through life. My understanding of these experiences is that what they are, and what exactly they mean needs to be prayerfully discerned - and doing this is much easier with a guide.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Hey Ronald thank-you for your openness. Very nice.
I too have had 'times' when I felt the extreme closeness of the Lord. My first time was during my first year in Seminary. I too was praying, probably over my Hebrew assignment (just joking), when I had this incredibly sense of the Presence of the Lord in my room.
I got off my chair and laid on the floor and simply cried and was ?????? words can't describe that experience. I told this to one of my professors and he proceeded to explain what I may have experienced.
Like yourself there have been other times, brief encounters, but all wonderful. I remember walking through a baseball field heading home for supper when I felt this incredible love come over me. When I got home and was ready to pray over supper, I began to cry. My wife and kids asked what was wrong and I said, God's love for us is so great!
Once again, blessings to you and thank-you for your openness. This is safe place.
mm.
Ronald Kazmierczak said:Hi, I'm new to this forum. I've been doing research on the fifth book of the Philokalia and I found your posts. You all seem very knowledgeable on the topic of Eastern Orthodox Mysticism so this seems to me a very safe place to ask this question. Has anyone else had the same experience I've had? let me explain just a little bit.
I grew up in an Assemblies of God church, the Full Gospel Tabernacle with an excellent pastor, Tommy Reid. 35 years ago I attended bible school (Elim University) there and was in a class with Rev. Mark Virkler. He gave me book called "Centering Prayer" by M. Basil Pennington.
I read the book, practiced the Christian meditation techniques daily as I earnestly sought God. One day, as I was kneeling in my closet in the dark reaching out to God, I had an experience. It lasted a fraction of a second. It was by far the most powerful feeling I've ever felt, nothing in my life prepared me for this. Ecstasy, purpose, clarity, unconditional Love, unimaginable power, and the most intense love for Jesus that I've ever felt. I knew there was no way this came from me.
I tried to make it happen again, a month later it happened and stayed a little longer. I continued this throughout my life and rarely ever told anyone about it. It is my constant companion now. So I wanted to know if anyone else has experienced this? A couple years ago I found out about the Philokalia and it was a revelation to me. It was like the instruction manual I've been missing all these years. And I finally found a name for this experience, Uncreated Light.
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Ronald all blessing to you, the Ecstasy of God is a most wonderful thing. It is something some never get to experience. This grace is wonderful but should not be sought simply for it's sake. A spiritual director would be a wise course, my times of ecstasy have most often come during my Bible studies during my prayer times, but they have happened during meditation, during a walk, encounters with animals and even most profoundly for me during a migraine (I say most profoundly because one would imagine that during a painful time one would not have joy and peace but the Spirit moved and held me for a few hours of that migraine). I do not want to discourage you because it is a wonderful experience, I just don't want you to experience a dark night of the soul, on the cloudiest of days you may see no evidence of the sun but it remains in the sky giving light even when we see it not for the conditions. The paths to ecstasy are many and varied, numerous mystics have written volumes to help, I feel the Cloud of Unknowing may be a valuable book on your journey with God. The Spirit of God is not forced, but I do understand you desire, I have no doubt it will come and God will lead you on paths you never dreamt of.
-dan
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Dan which of these are you referring to? I hadn't heard of either. Suggestions?
The Cloud of Unknowing
mm.
Dan Francis said:Ronald all blessing to you, the Ecstasy of God is a most wonderful thing. It is something some never get to experience. This grace is wonderful but should not be sought simply for it's sake. A spiritual director would be a wise course, my times of ecstasy have most often come during my Bible studies during my prayer times, but they have happened during meditation, during a walk, encounters with animals and even most profoundly for me during a migraine (I say most profoundly because one would imagine that during a painful time one would not have joy and peace but the Spirit moved and held me for a few hours of that migraine). I do not want to discourage you because it is a wonderful experience, I just don't want you to experience a dark night of the soul, on the cloudiest of days you may see no evidence of the sun but it remains in the sky giving light even when we see it not for the conditions. The paths to ecstasy are many and varied, numerous mystics have written volumes to help, I feel the Cloud of Unknowing may be a valuable book on your journey with God. The Spirit of God is not forced, but I do understand you desire, I have no doubt it will come and God will lead you on paths you never dreamt of.
-dan
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They are one and the same... just differing translation, but as much as I enjoy the work of Underhill her translation feels very dated to me:
HERE BEGINNETH THE FIRST CHAPTER
Of four degrees of Christian men’s living; and of the course of his calling that this book was made unto.
GHOSTLY friend in God, thou shalt well understand that I find, in my boisterous beholding, four degrees and forms of Christian men’s living: and they be these, Common, Special, Singular, and Perfect. Three of these may be begun and ended in this life; and the fourth may by grace be begun here, but it shall ever last without end in the bliss of Heaven. And right as thou seest how they be set here in order each one after other; first Common, then Special, after Singular, and last Perfect, right so me thinketh that in the same order and in the same course our Lord hath of His great mercy called thee and led thee unto Him by the desire of thine heart. For first thou wottest well that when thou wert living in the common degree of Christian men’s living in company of thy worldly friends, it seemeth to me that the everlasting love of His Godhead, through the which He made thee and wrought thee when thou wert nought, and sithen bought thee with the price of His precious blood when thou wert lost in Adam, might not suffer thee to be so far from Him in form and degree of living. And therefore He kindled thy desire full graciously, and fastened by it a leash of longing, and led thee by it into a more special state and form of living, to be a servant among the special servants of His; where thou mightest learn to live more specially and more ghostly in His service than thou didst, or mightest do, in the common degree of living before. And what more?
Yet it seemeth that He would not leave thee thus lightly, for love of His heart, the which He hath evermore had unto thee since thou wert aught: but what did He? Seest thou nought how listily and how graciously He hath privily pulled thee to the third degree and manner of living, the which is called Singular? In the which solitary form and manner of living, thou mayest learn to lift up the foot of thy love; and step towards that state and degree of living that is perfect, and the last state of all.
Evelyn Underhill, ed., A Book of Contemplation the Which Is Called the Cloud of Unknowing, in the Which a Soul Is Oned with God, Second Edition (London: John M. Watkins, 1922), 65–67.
Chapter I
The four degrees of the Christian life; and how he for whom this book was written advanced in his vocation10
Proemium
My spiritual friend in God:11 I pray and beseech you to pay very close attention to the progress of your vocation and the way in which you have been called; thank God from your heart, so that through the help of his grace you may stand steadfast in the state, degree and manner of life that you have undertaken with full deliberation in spite of all the subtle attacks of your bodily and ghostly enemies,12 and so win through to the crown of life13 that lasts forever, Amen.
My spiritual friend in God, you are to understand that according to our rather crude reckoning, there are four degrees and forms of the Christian life. They are: ordinary, special, singular and perfect. Three of these can be begun and ended in this life; and one may begin the fourth by grace here below, which is to last without end in the happiness of heaven. These degrees are set out here in order, successively, first ordinary then special, after that singular and finally perfect.14 It is in this same way, I think, according to this very order and progress, that our Lord has, in his great mercy, called you and led you to him by the desire of your heart.
First, then, you are well aware that once you lived in the ordinary degree of the Christian life in the world with your friends. And I believe that the everlasting love of the Godhead through which he made you and fashioned you when you were nothing, and then bought you at the price of his precious blood when, in Adam, you were lost, would not allow you to be so far away from him in the manner and state of your living.15 And so with his great grace he kindled your desire, and fastened to it a leash of longing,16 and with this led you into a more special state and degree of life, to be a servant of the special servants of his;17 where you could learn to live in his service more particularly and more spiritually than you did before or could do in the ordinary way of life. What is more, it appeared that he was not going to leave you alone so easily, because of the love in his heart which he has always had for you since you first existed. What is it that he did? Do you not see with what love and with what grace he has called you up to the third degree and manner of life, which is called singular? And in this state and manner of life of the solitary you are to learn to lift up the foot of your love,18 and step outwards towards that state and degree of life that is perfect, the last state of all.
10 In repeating the chapter headings, we are following R. M., who says: “Though the author of the book does not set out the various titles at the head of each chapter throughout the book, but only at the beginning, it seems better to me, all things considered, not only to put them all together at the beginning, but one by one at the head of each chapter.”
11 Like three other works which can be attributed with certainty to our author, the Cloud itself is couched in the form of a letter to a young beginner from an older monk or spiritual father. (We have referred to the Carthusian practice in this regard in the Introduction, p. 40). However, it must also be noticed that many writers in this genre, with varying degrees of awareness, were simply perpetuating the tradition and adopting the style of the first apostolic writers, beginning with SS. Luke and Paul, on the understanding that their writings would be passed from hand to hand, and read aloud in quasi-ecclesiastical gatherings: in this case, monastic refectories or chapter halls. An outstanding example is the letter on the contemplative life by the Carthusian Guigo the Angelic, whose epistolary introduction is omitted in literally scores of extant MSS. Cf. The Ladder of Monks, p. 81; Introduction, supra, p. 78.
12 Cf. Ephesians 6:10ff.
13 The reference to James 1:12 is taken up at length by the author in his letter on Discernment of Spiritual Impulses.
14 “The ordinary degree is of laypeople, the special of clerics or religious, and the singular of solitaries: that is, hermits, anchorites and especially Carthusians. Hence we may conclude that this book was written for a Carthusian, since in our day it is not customary, as it was in days gone by, to leave an approved religious order for a hermitage, but only for the Carthusians” (R.M.). Cf. Introduction, p. 15. The commentator on MS. Harleian 674 gives the example of Christ himself, who “whilst he was subject to his parents, was in the ordinary degree; whilst he was about his business, in the special; whilst fasting in the desert and praying on the mountain, in the singular; and in the transfiguration, resurrection and ascension, in the perfect”.
15 Cf. The Ladder: “When you were nothing I created you, and after you had sinned and made yourself a slave who once were free, then I redeemed you out of slavery with the price of myself. Then afterwards you hunted with the sinners of this world, and I caught you back from them, and I gave more of my grace to you than to others, because I wanted you to be my own” (ME version).
16 “A leash of longing.” This is one of the more outstanding examples of the author’s ability to drive home an essential theological point: the reconciliation of “you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,” and human freedom, with a vivid and self-clarifying metaphor.
17 Hugo de Balma, in speaking of the steps to union, stresses the importance of reflecting on the benefits the disciple has received: first, of creation and of redemption by the Incarnation and the Passion; and secondly of the grace of the Carthusian vocation, which is not merely a call out of the world, “because he has called him (the disciple) not to the rule of the holy Benedict or Augustine … but has chosen him for that most blessed life which he himself chose when he was led into the desert. He was our forerunner, showing what it means to be a servant, by serving us”.
18 The source of this image is Augustine’s commentary on Psalm 9: “Rightly understood, the foot of the soul is love; for it moves by means of love to the place it is going” (PL 36, 124). De Balma speaks of the “plateau of unitive love towards which the mind hastens, supported by the feet of the affections”.
James Walsh and Richard J. Payne, eds., The Cloud of Unknowing, The Classics of Western Spirituality (Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press, 1981), 115–117.
So The Cloud of Unknowing is the one i recommend even though slightly more expensive you can see the annotations alone make it a better choice.
-Dan
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Big difference. thanks.
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I have a link to the one I've read. https://www.catholicspiritualdirection.org/cloudunknowing.pdf
My favorite is the sixth chapter, it seems to be a good summary of the entire book:
"BUT now thou askest me and sayest, “How shall I think on Himself, and what is He?” and to this I cannot answer thee but thus: “I wot not.” For thou hast brought me with thy question into that same darkness, and into that same cloud of unknowing, that I would thou wert in thyself. For of all other creatures and their works, yea, and of the works of God’s self, may a man through grace have fullhead of knowing, and well he can think of them: but of God Himself can no man think. And therefore I would leave all that thing that I can think, and choose to my love that thing that I cannot think. For why; He may well be loved, but not thought. By love may He be gotten and holden; but by thought never. And therefore, although it be good sometime to think of the kindness and the worthiness of God in special, and although it be a light and a part of contemplation: nevertheless yet in this work it shall be cast down and covered with a cloud of forgetting. And thou shalt step above it stalwartly, but Mistily, with a devout and a pleasing stirring of love, and try for to pierce that darkness above thee. And smite upon that thick cloud of unknowing with a sharp dart of longing love; and go not thence for thing that befalleth."
This is what I feel the book is saying:
We want to know God in a far deeper way because we know instinctively that such a way exists, like a new born child knows to breathe at birth. We have this gnawing void deep inside of us and know it has something to do with God. So we rush to church, bible study, and worship because we feel a glimmer of what is possible when God fills us. We see miracles and long to hold on to the other-worldness of the experience because the God that we love is in it. Like Song of Solomon we search for our love and sometimes we catch a brief glimpse of the things He's done and the lives He's touched. But inside we mourn that it has to go away and we have to return to our mundane life and hope for more in eternity. We stumble in our Christian walk and we pray that He still loves us, we are in pain and pray that He still carries us, we are dying on our sickbed and pray that He waits for us.
The empty feeling we have in our spirit is similar to guilt is to the soul or pain is to the body. It is a mechanism built into us by God to move us to action. He wouldn't give it to us that feeling if there was no solution for it in this life. The empty feeling is an invitation sent by God to find the thing that fills it. The "Cloud of Unknowing" and "Centering Prayer" by M. Basil Pennington go into depth of how to prepare yourself for this experience. But once prepare you must wait at the door and not move, like Jacob you must say, "I will not let you go until you bless me".
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I would not disagree with you and it is important what you get out of it, I can offer you the other translation.....
Chapter VI
A short appreciation of this exercise by means of question and answer
But now you put me a question and say: “How might I think of him in himself, and what is he?” And to this I can only answer thus: “I have no idea.” For with your question you have brought me into that same darkness, into that same cloud of unknowing where I would you were yourself. For a man may, by grace, have the fulness of knowledge of all other creatures and their works, yes, and of the works of God’s own self, and he is well able to reflect on them.67 But no man can think of God himself. Therefore, it is my wish to leave everything that I can think of and choose for my love the thing that I cannot think.68 Because he can certainly be loved, but not thought.69 He can be taken and held by love but not by thought. Therefore, though it is good at times to think of the kindness and worthiness of God in particular, and though this is a light and a part of contemplation,70 nevertheless, in this exercise, it must be cast down and covered over with a cloud of forgetting. You are to step above it stalwartly but lovingly, and with a devout, pleasing, impulsive love strive to pierce that darkness above you. You are to smite upon that thick cloud of unknowing with a sharp dart of longing love.71 Do not leave that work for anything that may happen.
67 Cf. The Ascent to Contemplative Wisdom, p. 249.
68 R. M.: “We read in the book of Wisdom, ‘To know thee is perfect justice’ (15:3). And what does it mean to know God, except to praise him and thank him in faith mentally, and vocally if it is opportune? What the author says, however, is that one cannot speak in true praise of God because of his surpassing excellence. Whatever you conceive or say of God is always less than true praise. So Ecclesiasticus: ‘Praise him as much as you can, and he will still surpass your praise; for he is beyond all praise’ ” (43:32–33).
69 R. M.: “Man’s thought or mental skill can never find God. So, according to Denis the Areopagite, it is by an incomprehensible ascent that we find union with him who is above every substance and all knowledge.”
70 R. M.: “It is absolutely certain that the whole of sacred scripture is true, as it is written in the book of Wisdom, ‘He has given me the true knowledge of the things that are’ (7:17); but in Ecclesiastes it is said: ‘Even if [the wise man] shall say that he knows, he shall not be able to find.’ So we must distinguish and in our devout recollection realize that he who is enlightened has full knowledge of things that are, only insofar as he is enlightened; and insofar as he is not enlightened, he cannot discover the reason for all that God has made.”
71 The source of this image is, as we have said, probably Guigues du Pont in his De Contemplatione: “It often happens that God, for the soul’s sake, causes certain rents to occur in the cloud itself. Through these rents the divine goodness is reached by means of secret aspirations—sharp arrows of loving impulses (acutas sagittas piarum affectionum) which penetrate the Cloud. When this happens, the soul has a sweet and spiritual taste of divine things, which it savours but does not see” (Cf. J. P. Grausem, S.J., “Le de Contemplatione du Chartreuse Guigues du Pont,” in R.A.M. X [1929]: 274).
James Walsh and Richard J. Payne, eds., The Cloud of Unknowing, The Classics of Western Spirituality (Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press, 1981), 130–131.
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Another text you may find helpful is the Fire of Love and here is a bit from the preface on the one Logos has... I have not read this one yet but Penguin classics version is one i read years ago. That said this one seems to be a very good readable updating (middle english is not something I want to tackle):
THE MYSTICISM OF RICHARD ROLLE
BY EVELYN UNDERHILL
The four great English mystics of the fourteenth century - Richard Rolle, Walter Hilton, Julian of Norwich and the anonymous author of “The Cloud of Unknowing” —though in doctrine as in time they are closely related to one another, yet exhibit in their surviving works strongly marked and deeply interesting diversities of temperament.1 Rolle, the romantic and impassioned hermit; his great successor, that nameless contemplative, acute psychologist, and humorous critic of manners, who wrote “The Cloud of Unknowing” and its companion works; Hilton, the gentle and spiritual Canon of Throgmorton; and Julian, the exquisitely human yet profoundly meditative anchoress, whose “Revelations of Divine Love” are perhaps the finest flower of English religious literature—these form a singularly picturesque group in the history of European mysticism.
Richard Rolle of Hampole, the first of them in time, and often called with justice “The father of English Mysticism,” is in some aspects the most interesting and individual of the four. Possessed of great literary power, and the author of numerous poems and prose treatises, his strong influence may be felt in all the mystical and ascetic writers who succeeded him; and some knowledge of his works is essential to a proper understanding of the currents of religious thought in this country during the two centuries which preceded the Reformation. Sometimes known as the “English Bonaventura,” he might have been named with far greater exactitude the “English Francis” : for his life and temperament—though we dare not claim for him the unmatched gaiety, sweetness, and spiritual beauty of his Italian predecessor—yet present many parallels with those of the “little poor man” of Assisi. Both Francesco Bernadone and Richard Rolle were born romantics. Each represents the revolt of the unsatisfied heart and intuitive mind of the natural mystic from the comfortable, the prudent, and the commonplace: its tendency to seek in the spiritual world the ultimate beauty and the ultimate love. Both saw in poverty, simplicity, self-stripping, the only real freedom; in “carnal use and wont” the only real servitude. Moreover, both were natural artists, who found in music and poetry the fittest means of expression for their impassioned and all-dominating love of God. Francis held that the servants of the Lord were nothing else than His minstrels. He taught his friars to imitate the humility and gladness of that holy little bird the lark; and when sweet melody of spirit boiled up within him, would sing troubadour-like in French to the Lord Jesus Christ. For Rolle,too, the glad and eager life of birds was a school of Christian virtue. At the beginning of his conversion, he took as his model the nightingale, which to some and melody all night is given, that she may please him to whom she is joined. For him the life of contemplation was essentially a musical state, and song, rightly understood, embraced every aspect of the soul’s communion with Reality. Sudden outbursts of lyrical speech and direct appeals to musical imagery abound in his writings, as in those of no other mystic; and perhaps constitute their outstanding literary characteristic.
1
Richard Rolle was probably born about 1290 and died in 1349: “The Cloud of Unknowing” was written in the second half of the fourteenth century: Walter Hilton died about 1396: Julian of Norwich was born in 1343, and was still living in 1413.
Richard Rolle of Hampole, The Fire of Love (London: Methuen & Co, 1920).
-dan
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Hey guys. In second Kings chapter 7 there is an account of 4 lepers who wandered into the camp of the Arameans during a siege. Not only was it deserted but they had access to food, gold and anything they wanted. After enjoying it by themselves they were pricked with guilt. They had to tell others what they found, of course no one will believe them but it was their obligation to tell about it.
A while ago I posted the story of what happened to me 35 years ago, my encounter with Uncreated Light. Since then I've spent nearly every waking moment in that presence, and it has been intensifying. I'm far too boring to make things up like this and at the risk of losing credibility let me report what's happened. If the end result is one other person getting to experience this, any amount ridicule is ok, lol. There are two things I want to tell everybody, more has happened but these two are provable, they are things that happen every time and if any of you are ever in the Dallas area I would be incredibly happy to show you.
I had my hand on my fiance's back lightly rubbing her. The Uncreated Light experience happened to her. I removed my hand and it stopped, I put it back and it continued. All the pain in her body disappeared, and the depression she's been fighting was gone. I've noticed that this happens every time now. Whoever I put my hand on enters the presence, I remove it and it goes away. When I put my own hand on my chest I can feel the presence burning inside my chest with intensity, more than normal. The best part is that you don't have to take my word for it, it happens every time. Its not like I have to pray or psych myself up, its just always on.
The other thing I noticed is very strange. I lift weight every morning for the last 30 years. I usually curl two 40 pound weights (hammer curl) like 3 sets of 10 times each. The most repetitions I can do is about 15. So I get to the 10 repetition, then I was wondering what happens when I have the Uncreated Light experience while doing that. So I did. The burning feeling that I've experienced my whole life when lifting weights was completely gone. My son was watching me in shock. I did 50, 60 ,70 reps very fast. I only stopped because I thought I might be hurting myself and couldn't feel it. I put down the weights and I wasn't out of breath. So I can do that every time, when I lift weights while in His presence it seems there is no limit.
All I can say is that I really am an insignificant person and I take no pride in any of this. If any of my ego got into the post I'm sincerely sorry. I don't want to do the slightest thing to impede what God wants to do.
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