Logos Now and Faithlife Connect: The Why

245678

Comments

  • Sean
    Sean Member Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭

    Maybe we could have done this differently; we'll consider that for the next round of changes. But as I pointed out in an earlier reply, with nine months lead time before any negative change, this kinda is the announcement and discussion period, even if we didn't label it that way. On the other hand, labeling it that way wouldn't in this case have changed the things that need to be done.

    I'll be blunt; the 140% price increase (don't call it anything else) would not have gone down well no matter how you handled this. Sending the email out first OR plainly saying in the forum thread, "You'll be getting an email with a coupon that will help you transition to a feature set if this is too much for you" would have taken away a lot of the initial heat.

    To be blunter still: you lost a lot of trust yesterday, and it's not going to come back.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    That which we have asked for largely goes unanswered.  That which we don't ask for, gets pushed onto us.

    You're fair to suggest that you all (collectively) are our most important constituency. I agree.

    But the general accusation that we don't give what's requested, and force what isn't requested, is a little too general. We provide a lot of what's requested -- much of what we offer is at user request. We do offer some things not requested -- some of our best (and most popular) products and features are things we came up with that you didn't know you wanted, but liked.

    But if what you're asking for is "more for less", there are going to be some limits in every business, no matter how customer-friendly. We keep trying -- and over the long arc of our business, I think the evidence is there that we have delivered that -- but it has to make sense for survival. 

  • James Hudson
    James Hudson Member Posts: 337 ✭✭✭
    I think your view of the future is wrong - the software industry (desktop) is not going to be rental (like tv has become) - many years later most people can only give 2 examples of software that has gone that way (Adobe and MS Office) and those 2 exist because they are practically monopolies in their sectors and so can force this on their users. Logos is neither a cable tv company nor a monopoly.

    I think the future is in mobile apps. Most people in my church own a mobile app for phones or tablets (and most do not use logos app!) this area needs most development. It’s what will get new people into the Logos ecosystem in my opinion.


    Ps another reason people may not be spending as much on books now is not necessarily because they have large libraries it is because the books are gradually getting more expensive (I buy books every week and I own 28000+) but the only reason I buy less now is because the prices are gradually increasing. (I think community pricing should be the only model you use - gets an intersection of supply and demand to maximise profit)
  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    If I was a brand new customer, I'd definitely subscribe to FL Connect

    I hope, and expect, that many people will agree with you.

    LN was an amazing value

    In a way, part of the problem... maybe too amazing...

    but I don't think that early release access is worth $240/yr.

    Probably not; that's why there's a lot more in there then that, but if those things aren't valuable to you, then it's not right for you. Which is okay, because...

    I'll likely take my $X00 and buy the L8 feature set.

    ...that works too.

    Thanks again for writing, and for listening. May God bless you and your company, Bob.

    Thank you.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Logos Now was a bit of a membership club and we were loyal.

    I appreciate that. I just didn't get enough of the users as members, and the hybrid model was confusing new customers.

    it sounds like us users (the tail) abused the program by wagging the dog and were just looking for the next features.

    Sorry if I wasn't clear... I wasn't calling you the tail, I was calling 'new features sooner' the tail wagging the Logos Now dog.

    At the start we had lots of feature ideas and data sets to add, but over time we realized we needed to pour resources into bigger things like re-writes of core technology, stability and speed and other platform improvements, porting to the web, etc. While some users may have appreciated those things as part of the Logos Now deliverables, many users were counting features / deciding on 'what's new' and deciding it wasn't enough to justify it... and those new emphases would hurt that new subscriber recruiting even more...

  • PetahChristian
    PetahChristian Member Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭

    but I don't think that early release access is worth $240/yr.

    Probably not; that's why there's a lot more in there then that, but if those things aren't valuable to you, then it's not right for you. Which is okay,

    It's not that those things aren't valuable. I think you bundled a lot of value into Faithlife Connect (and like LN, it pays for itself due to the benefits). Back issues of Bible Study Magazine is a big deal that I just found out about earlier today.

    The difficult thing to swallow is paying rental costs for books and features which I own. Is there any solution for that sticking point?

    Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

  • Sean
    Sean Member Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭

    It's not that they're not valuable. I think you bundled a lot of value into Faithlife Connect (and like LN, it pays for itself due to the benefits).

    Just because there's more stuff in it doesn't mean it's valuable for everyone. I, personally, am not the least bit interested in mobile ed unless they start offering post-grad or post-doc level courses, and I've not even glanced at FaithLifeTV (or whatever it's called) even once. The problem is FaithLife is continuously pushing us to go bigger and more expensive in order to just keep up. At some point, people will say, "Enough!", and for many people, this is that point.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Mark said:

    I still go to places where there is no internet access.

    Which is why the downloadable, transactional model is still better for some users, and why we're still offering it.

    Mark said:

    I agree with those who see it more as a program being filled with bloatware.

    I don't want to become bloatware. Unfortunately that's a tendency as things mature, for two reasons:

    1) As a general tool matures, it goes into more niches both to respond to users and to chase new market segments with targeted features. The first version of Excel did math on numbers. Later versions had features specifically for tax professionals, construction estimators, and soccer moms. That's bloat to me, but value to those specific people.

    2) Somewhere along the way most users have their basic needs met, but still want fresh updates, free tech support, etc. Sometimes they even stop upgrading, ending the revenue stream without ending the support expense stream. Companies add bloat to increase (for some people) the value perception, to capture revenue from alternate sources (like PC manufacturers being paid to incorporate third-party software), etc.

    Subscription models help cure this second bloat problem by keeping revenue and costs more in sync (though introducing other costs, like constant customer acquisition). But the transition can be difficult and expensive... 

    This is my problem, not yours, but I'll share it anyway: the only thing scarier than the phrase "I've never heard of Logos" (which I used to hear a lot years ago) is running into lots of people who say "I've had Logos for years, I love it, it's so powerful, I feel bad that I only use 5% of its incredible power... no, I haven't upgraded it, even though I use it every week, because it already does everything I need and more, and I couldn't possibly read more books."

    I suppose we could declare victory and dissolve the company... but A) we've got mouths to feed and B) even those users might someday decide they need an update, or support, and wish we had more than a skeleton crew around to serve them.

    Again, my problem, and a relatively high-class problem as problems go, but a problem none the less... which is what keeps leading us to narrower feature areas (to capture niches in the market that haven't bought yet) as well as to new product categories (like Proclaim and more) where we can continue to deliver value and get paid for it.

    I know, most users would like to buy once, and then just have us continue to polish the gem, making it faster and prettier and easier to use...  that's how I feel about most products I buy!

    But.... math.  :-)

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Not many other companies out there would do that.

    Thank you for this acknowledgement.

    your subscription revenue is going to decline

    As I mentioned in another reply, Logos Now generated around 1.8% of revenue.... so while that's real money, and I'd hate to see it go, if it all went, and as a result we ended up with a new subscription product for new customers that was understandable and financially viable, even if starting from zero subscribers, and existing users went back to purchasing upgrades / books as they wished, it would probably work out better.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    many new users are accustomed to the subscription model

    I'm glad to hear you believe this too...

    This subscription method may make Logos "accessible" to a new community of the "average" church membership since the high spending users (like myself and several other forum users) may be reaching a slowed pace of purchasing power.

    That is our hope.

    I personally feel like the LN switch to FLConnect was abrupt

    We are definitely getting that message loud and clear. :-)

    The challenge is for those that anticipated LN to continue on indefinitely

    ...what we hope we addressed in the emails directly to the individuals involved. Again, if we haven't satisfied you with that, let us know.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Denise said:

    If I wanted to combine Logos, Proclaim, and church operations into an attractive package, to include educational opportunities for 'the church',

    That seems like an interesting idea...

  • Mark Smith
    Mark Smith MVP Posts: 11,822

    Bob, I am just amazed that you'd ask me to shell out $200 a month for access to less than 3,000 resources (Connect Ultimate).

    The first thing I wanted to know is what commentaries were included. For $2,400 a year, or $24,000 in ten years I get access to a bunch of old public domain texts, a few ECC commentaries, a handful of secondary commentaries, and as far as I can see, just one top tier commentary (Pillar). (Some would add Hermeneia as top tier, but many would disagree.) No NIC. No NIGTC. No Baker Exegetical. No ICC. No Socio-Rhetorical. No Word. Not even NAC.

    Under dictionaries there is Anchor Yale, but not a single one of the many IVP dictionaries.

    Under Hebrew lexicons there is no HALOT.

    The journal offerings are extraordinarily weak. Not sure who your target is with that random collection.

    What does a serious student/pastor/seminarian do? He/she is forced to buy commentaries, HALOT, many other dictionaries and journals, and still pay you for some sort of subscription? I don't think so.

    Exactly who is your target? It looks to me like this model will fail as Logos Cloud did, and likely for the same reason - lousy content. Lay people will give you $10 or $20 a month. But for that you offer nothing and next to nothing. I would never recommend either to a lay person in my church. I'd rather they bought Tyndale at full price so at least they'd have a decent commentary at the end of a year. 

    If you offered access to everything FL produced for $200 a month that would still be a whole lot of money for what one actually used. I've used Logos for well over 20 years. Imagine: I'd be out $48,000, own nothing, and have used mostly second-rate commentaries that whole time. WOW.

    When you can get permission to rent your whole catalog, and figure out how to distribute the earnings to the publishers, and price your offerings in a reasonable way, then you may have a lot of customers.

    Right now you are fixin' to get very few.

    I wish you and FL well. I have a lot invested with you. I don't think you have a model that is going to work no matter how desperately you need it to, but of course, we'll just have to wait and see.

    Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

    Bridgeport, CT USA

  • Kevin A. Purcell
    Kevin A. Purcell Member Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭

    Bob, you keep saying that new features wasn't the primary focus. That just didn't sound true to me. So I searched me email archives for "Logos Now" and guess what I discovered. Early on nearly every email from Logos was about the new version features. Then it became Scott half new features and have new book discounts or free books. Lately it was more about books.

    The reason we thought it was about new features is you made it about new features at the outset.

    Second, you say that you're ok with us not subscribing and just buying at the upgrade. Great. Can you then offer a .5 feature upgrade that I can but before the big new .0 upgrade? So let's say I get 8.0 got $400 in Nov. Then in May you sell a feature upgrade for $79. When 9.0 comes out I'll probably get it. Then if 9.5 comes for that $79 price awesome. I subscribe to Now ONLY for the feature upgrades but won't subscribe for $240. So let me give you a smaller amount more often for a software upgrade. I get what I want. You get more $$ from me that you would not hey with this new model. And everyone's happy. Unless you really are just doing this to push everyone over to subscriptions then in my scenario I'm there only one happy.

    Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
    Brushy Mountain Baptist Association

    www.kevinpurcell.org

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    My biggest concern is the lack of dynamic pricing for the hybrid approach.

    This is a problem for us too. It's a hard one to solve, because the business models are so different, and there can be significant implications in how revenue is calculated, royalties shared, etc. 

    Purchases are easy: Collect one price, sale is done, pay royalties. Subscriptions involve (for now) multiple business models; some are gambles (we buy a copy and hope you subscribe long enough to cover the royalty cost before canceling) and some are different models (we pay a percentage on the revenue collected, so less than we'd pay for a sold copy when the subscription is short, but much more when it is long).

    It's just too complicated for dynamic pricing. Even if you could program the formulas into a computer, the explanation to each user would be unique, complicated, and would change based on the month. And there are lots of philosophical questions with financial implications.

    Which is why Spotify doesn't give me credit for all the CDs I bought years ago... and Netflix doesn't credit me the movie tickets I bought when the films were new releases... and my Microsoft Office 365 subscription isn't cheaper because I've bought 5 copies of the whole Office suite with or for various computers over the years... 

    And yet, if I did buy a one-time video-on-demand digital purchase of a single movie via Amazon's video service, it gets added into my video library even if it isn't part of Prime Video. (Though, if it is or becomes part of Prime Video, I don't get any credit or discount.)

    We're watching what other companies do, and experimenting, and trying to find the optimal solution. Ultimately it seems like all these transitions work when the subscription becomes 'worth it' no matter what I paid in the past... which is why I caved and subscribed to Spotify, despite having spent so much on (some of) that music already on CD... and cassettes before that...

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Matthew said:

    Thanks for the detailed and well thought out post. As usual, it was helpful in understanding FL's thought process, vision, and strategy moving forward. Unfortunately, as is too often the case with FL's roll-outs, this post should have PROCEEDED the launch

    I hear you, and we'll apply this feedback to future plans.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Why not do a kind of ‘pre-pub’ or ‘community pricing’ concept to guage support for new ideas and features (as well as books) and what people would be willing to pay?

    We've tried a few things similar to this and had poor success. We've also tried to use Uservoice (https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-7) to get user priorities, but it A) gets hijacked by big many-features-in-one-request posts that remove clarity about actual priorities, and B) tends to get people who votes once on their biggest pet peeve and then don't redistribute their votes when it isn't happening or even after it has happened. We do pay attention, though, and it does influence development.

    You'd be surprised, though, how few people (as a percentage of users) actually engage Pre-Pub, CP, and UserVoice. While it's enough to make each work, it's not enough to really represent the user base (statistically).

  • Steve Farson
    Steve Farson Member Posts: 341 ✭✭

    I'm a Logos Now subscriber. I own 14K+ resources. Have not seen an email and unsure how this news is "good news" for me.

    Who should I email to mention I have not seen an email. And does anyone have any insight how this Faithlife announcement will or can positively impact me as a very loyal customer?

    Thanks much. 

  • Sean
    Sean Member Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭

    I'm a Logos Now subscriber. I own 14K+ resources. Have not seen an email and unsure how this news is "good news" for me.

    Who should I email to mention I have not seen an email. And does anyone have any insight how this Faithlife announcement will or can positively impact me as a very loyal customer?

    Thanks much. 

    Try posting in this thread, which is being monitored by FL staff: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/160492/957526.aspx#957526 They've responded to people with similar problems.

    I don't have nearly as many resources as you, but in my mail I got a coupon that will basically pay for the Full Feature Set.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    the software industry (desktop) is not going to be rental (like tv has become) - many years later most people can only give 2 examples of software that has gone that way (Adobe and MS Office)

    Really? I feel like EVERY software product is going this way -- because every subscription web site is really just software via subscription... and I can't think of many (any?) significant new, downloadable software packages... I find myself subscribing to sites, but never downloading anything but Google Chrome, Logos and Proclaim. :-)

    I think the future is in mobile apps.

    I don't disagree; the bad news is that many users think mobile apps should be free... always. It's starting to change, particularly when paired with a subscription-based website, but mobile is notoriously hard to monetize on its own... before you even get to Apple's 30% cut... (Trust me, we don't have a 30% margin to begin with...)

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Bob, I am just amazed that you'd ask me to shell out $200 a month for access to less than 3,000 resources (Connect Ultimate).

    Contents of the collections will change over time as we're able to negotiate different terms, as we get usage data and history, etc.

    If you know you're going to be a 20 year user, then you probably do want to purchase content. But statistically most subscribers are NOT 20 year users, and some are very short users... in which case even the $200 level is a great deal.

    Remember that we have users with dramatically different profiles, and subscription oriented users are often very different by nature. For example, imagine a user in their final year of school, who needs access to a lot of resources to finish their dissertation... a few months at $200 to get access to thousands of dollars in content might be a great deal for them.

    In the same way, some publishers who are used to selling their commentary set for $1,000 -- even if you never end up reading all the volumes, or even all the pages in any one volume, they still get paid -- might balk at putting that $1,000 set into a $200 / month collection of hundreds of resources that someone might only subscribe to for 90 days....

    We don't know how long subscriptions will last, or how it will all shake out. If you know something concrete -- like you'll use it for 20 years -- then you're equipped to make a good decision on the buy / rent question. (Just as you would in housing; the total of 20 years of rent might make buying an easy decision. But if you graduate in six months and don't know what city you'll move to for a job, then almost any monthly rent is smarter than buying a house.)

    I can say that none of this is happening in a vacuum; if someone subscribes and then continues for a long time, we'd be foolish if we didn't find ways to reward that, to offer incentives to continue subscribing, etc. Maybe that's 'making permanent' some resources; maybe it's reducing the cost over time; maybe it's constantly adding / changing that collection so that 5 years from now your subscription include books not yet written today that you're glad to get as part of your subscription then.... maybe you won't use the same books for 20 years if you get fresh, new books every year....and maybe you'd value constantly fresh content over 'owning' the same content for 20 years. Or maybe not. We'll find out together.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Early on nearly every email from Logos was about the new version features.

    Yes, it became the tail wagging the dog almost immediately, especially for existing transactional customers... which wasn't our hope or plan, but is what happened.

    We'll keep looking at the options... though one of the points I'm making is that the pace of new features may be more irregular, or 'lumpy', which makes those in-between releases harder to sell, and has other side effects....

  • Chris duMond (Faithlife)
    Chris duMond (Faithlife) Member, Logos Employee Posts: 152

    Who should I email to mention I have not seen an email.

    I got you Steve and I'll look into it. Some customers have had "undeliverable" emails come back to us (hit spam filters, unsubscribed from emails, etc) and we are working through those manually with Customer Service. There's also a handful of customers that have very special circumstances that we are also emailing manually with information specific to their situation. You may be in one of these categories. We are actively working through all those. 

    And does anyone have any insight how this Faithlife announcement will or can positively impact me as a very loyal customer?

    That depends on your unique situation. But I can tell you that nothing changes for your Logos Now subscription until 11/12/18 or your renewal date, whichever is later, and that you'll be able to enjoy the benefits of Connect right away. You'll also be receiving a promo code to use on an upgraded library and/or feature set (Logos 7 or Logos 8 when it comes out), or an upgraded Connect subscription. 

  • Sojourner
    Sojourner Member Posts: 20 ✭✭

    Which is why Spotify doesn't give me credit for all the CDs I bought years ago... and Netflix doesn't credit me the movie tickets I bought when the films were new releases... and my Microsoft Office 365 subscription isn't cheaper because I've bought 5 copies of the whole Office suite with or for various computers over the years...

    I'm sorry, but those are completely different scenarios. It is unfortunate that you view them the same way.

    Spotify doesn't sell CDs. Netflix doesn't sell movie tickets. Office 365 is a comparison between software to software, not content to content. FL is an a position where they are selling content and renting the same content. The closest comparison is Amazon Video. 

    And yet, if I did buy a one-time video-on-demand digital purchase of a single movie via Amazon's video service, it gets added into my video library even if it isn't part of Prime Video. (Though, if it is or becomes part of Prime Video, I don't get any credit or discount.)

    This argument makes sense, save two details. Prime Video rotates an increasing library of content and my purchases do not equate to a significant portion of the Prime Video library. I would risk saying that many of us do not see the size of FC library (starter or essentials) as worth it, because we own a significant portion of the content already.

    I did a brief comparison of FC Starter and Logos Starter and it looks to be nearly the same content. The fact that the number of books in the FC and Standard libraries match means that they probably are the same content. If they are indeed the same content, then any FC subscriber should never purchase a Standard library! Your subscription model discourages big purchases. Suddenly, the comparison between Prime Video and FC becomes a contrast. At this point, what makes dynamic pricing so difficult, since it appears to be no different than upgrading between libraries?

    I truly appreciate the candor that has been expressed on this forum. It gives me a lot of faith in FL as a company. If I am wrong and the libraries are different, would it be possible to get an easy way to see the difference?

  • Phil Gons (Logos)
    Phil Gons (Logos) Administrator, Logos Employee Posts: 3,802

    I did a brief comparison of FC Starter and Logos Starter and it looks to be nearly the same content. The fact that the number of books in the FC and Standard libraries match means that they probably are the same content. If they are indeed the same content, then any FC subscriber should never purchase a Standard library! Your subscription model discourages big purchases. Suddenly, the comparison between Prime Video and FC becomes a contrast. At this point, what makes dynamic pricing so difficult, since it appears to be no different than upgrading between libraries?

    I truly appreciate the candor that has been expressed on this forum. It gives me a lot of faith in FL as a company. If I am wrong and the libraries are different, would it be possible to get an easy way to see the difference?

    You're correct. There's currently a one-to-one relationship between the following:

    • Logos 7 Basic Library and Logos Cloud Basic in Faithlife Connect Basic
    • Logos 7 Starter Library and Logos Cloud Starter in Faithlife Connect Starter
    • Logos 7 Bronze Library and Logos Cloud Essentials in Faithlife Connect Essentials
    • Logos 7 Silver Library and Logos Cloud Standard in Faithlife Connect Standard
    • Logos 7 Gold Library and Logos Cloud Plus in Faithlife Connect Plus
    • Logos 7 Platinum Library and Logos Cloud Professional in Faithlife Connect Professional
    • Logos 7 Diamond Library and Logos Cloud Premium in Faithlife Connect Premium
    • Logos 7 Portfolio Library and Logos Cloud Ultimate in Faithlife Connect Ultimate

    That will likely change when Logos 8 comes out. They won't necessarily stay in lockstep. It was the easiest way of improving the quality of Logos Cloud libraries when we did the Cloud relaunch last year.

    But presently, for example, a Logos 7 Bronze or higher owner would gain no new Logos base package library resources by getting Faithlife Connect Essentials.

  • Richard Villanueva
    Richard Villanueva Member Posts: 510 ✭✭

    many new users are accustomed to the subscription model

    I'm glad to hear you believe this too...

    This subscription method may make Logos "accessible" to a new community of the "average" church membership since the high spending users (like myself and several other forum users) may be reaching a slowed pace of purchasing power.

    That is our hope.

    I personally feel like the LN switch to FLConnect was abrupt

    We are definitely getting that message loud and clear. :-)

    The challenge is for those that anticipated LN to continue on indefinitely

    ...what we hope we addressed in the emails directly to the individuals involved. Again, if we haven't satisfied you with that, let us know.

    thanks for the response! FWIW, my personal reaction was "woah, that's new! Surprise!"

    Then it went "huh, not sure that's what I want... But I still have LN, so, ok. Probably won't renew after, I got most of that stuff already."

    And finally, "Oh wait, a credit towards L8?? Sweet!"  I did not expect LN to continue indefinitely. And as far as the abruptness, that feeling went away when I saw that my LN subcription was not in danger, but would complete itself at the end of what I had paid for.  No loss here. Subscriptions have a sense of temporality to me, And so it is ending.

    And that's my story... I'm fine because I chose to own my L7 features and LN was about perks and discounts and what not. I've received my money's worth and now in a sense, have gotten it all back with the coupon! So I'm kinda ok with it all.

    if I stopped upgrading right now, I'd still have a phenomenal bible study tool for years to come and more pages than I could read in a lifetime. That's what I have paid for. But school and new research and discovery will have me purchasing plenty new books In the future (new required reading list is on its way next week!)

    I'm hopeful that by investing time, money and honest input FL will create content that will be useful enough to cause me to support them with more purchases/supscriptions/direct cerebral downloads... Or whatever is next.

    MBPro'12 / i5 / 8GB // 3.0 Scholars (Purple) / L6 & L7 Platinum, M&E Platinum, Anglican Bronze, P&C Silver / L8 Platinum, Academic Pro

  • Westie
    Westie Member Posts: 59 ✭✭

    Thanks for taking the time to explain.  I have spent around 15k over the years, and have been blessed with access to top resources, and powerful software tools that have helped be dive deeper into the word of God.  I plan to continue to add resources to my library because I love the platform.  Logos now did not make much sense to me, so I think that your decision to change to better defined product offerings is wise.  I can understand why some people are upset.  As is the case with government, after a "program" is rolled out, it is very hard to take it away from people who are benefiting form it, no matter how unsustainable it is to continue to offer (i.e. Obamacare...)

    Its hard for me to get too worked up about this since the goal of all these "books" and "features is to dig deeper into the bible and apply it to my life, and teach it to others, for the glory of God! 

    I am truly grateful for the hard work that you and your employees put into making Logos so great.  I am not a Preacher, I am a CPA, so if it were not for Logos I would not have the time, the training or the resources to go as deep as I do! You have been fair and I trust that you will continue to be fair. 

    God Bless

    Mark

  • Kevin A Lewis
    Kevin A Lewis Member Posts: 758 ✭✭

    Really? I feel like EVERY software product is going this way ...

    And what a stupid idea it is too.

    I can see this is led by corporates who like to spread costs across years, leasing cars, computers,  property, even now software. But for the individual this is downright insane, and poor stewardship of financial resources.

    Actually even for corporates the only lasting advantage is flexibility, not cost. And there are few other benefits.

    I can understand providing the subs model for those that want it, however. It doesn't make it a good idea or even right.

    Having said that I appreciate your attempts to ensure the longevity of the company for your staff and customers. I do understand change is always here and we need to constantly re-evaluate what we do.

    I also appreciate your communications - but do take on board the feelings of the loyal herd!

    Shalom

  • Thinking
    Thinking Member Posts: 368 ✭✭

    We also need to support the pure transactional model for people who want to 'buy it, own it, and not have to pay again.' That's what we've always offered, and what we plan to continue to offer.

    That is a very worrisome statement. It is far less assuring than statements you have made in the past.

  • André Kamphuis
    André Kamphuis Member Posts: 230 ✭✭

    I hope an upgrade to Logos 8 will seem worthwhile; that's a determination you'll have to make once you see the value.

    Bob, do you expect Logos 8 to be released before our Logos Now subscription expires (November 2018)?   Otherwise it would be hard to know whether we should use our credit to buy the Logos 7 Full Feature set or to wait for the features that will come with Logos 8.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,763

    Bob -

    Thank you for your explanation of the economics of the problem. I cheerfully admit to being one of those who "over-valued" the 6 week cycle of updates. I will also admit to seriously considering Logos Connect for my Luthern pastor daughter-in-law. I'll be evaluating the library for its useful to a Lutheran.

    I have, however, been slightly disappointed with the 6-week cycle of updates but not for the reasons you suspect. With an IT background, I was aware that there would be only so much "low-hanging fruit" projects for Logos to both push out visible improvements and make the infrastructure changes necessary to keep the product on the forefront of the industry. Therefore, I was anticipating a number of visible data and small projects to be rolled out. Examples:

    • The Narrative Lectionary used by a group of ELCA churches
    • The Creation Lectionary used by a variety of churches in a variety of countries
    • Updating the Compare Pericopes to include more recently added Bibles
    • Updating the Saints data to include at a minimum Anglican and Lutheran data
    • Addition of the data-types for the Protestant Confessions and Catechisms to allow the viewing of multiple translations in parallel
    • More noticeable/lightlighted progress on the Factbook
    • Additional entries in Interactives such as Before/After, Bible People Visual Timeslines, Bible Outline Browser, Narrative Character Maps ...
    • Add an attribute for text of sermons based on Catechism or Confession (in my library primarily Heidelburg, Augsberg, Armenian, and Westminster)
    • Add a predefined label with the standard attributes used by the music feature for users to add the attributed to the hymn texts in their library (preferably as community labels)
    • Add the ability for users to add milestone tags to any documents in Text Creation Partnership bundles (preferably as community milestones) to make them more usable (I'm thinking especially of the Psalters). Note we can label the sermons to make them more directly useful.

    Yes, the ones that come to my mind are ones that reflect my interests, but I am certain that a number of your users could provide lists of small projects that would enhance the usefulness of Logos for them. As the 6 week development cycle seemed to greatly improve your quality control and as there are many small projects still fitting into the 6 week cycle model, I'm not thrilled that Logos Connect does not retain the new feature aspect of Logos Now.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    Here's my "street cred" for Logos: Since 2004, spent $23K on resources and upgrades.

    Here's my take on things: I hate all software subscription models, and prefer owning the software. Aside from not seeing the value in Logos Now, and being highly confused about the benefits, I never subscribed. I have no intention of subscribing to anything new in the future, and since my purchases have ebbed off lately, probably never will.

    With that said, Bob, why don't you just sell the software? Its worked for thousands of companies for a very long time. I happily purchase new versions of software if there are compelling reasons to do so. If not, I usually buy every other upgrade.

    Is it a change in your 25 year old business model? Yeah, but hey, it beats all these little and annoying disruptive reversals every few years when things don't pan out.

    Will people be annoyed? Sure, but so what? One reason why I never jumped onto Logos Now is I had no need for the latest up-to-date feature set.

    And I think most people don't ::need:: it either. They want it, sure, but don't need it, and can wait a year or two between releases. We've got a freakin' digital library of quality resources at our finger-tips! That's amazing enough! And after 25 years of innovating, while I'm sure there's still a lot of cool things you can do with the manipulation of book data, isn't it getting to the point where you've already achieved a lot of the "low-hanging fruit" and are having to work harder and harder to develop new and innovative features, most of which are interesting to a smaller and smaller group of people?

    What I'm saying is, people can wait 1-2 years for a new feature set, AND pay for it too.

    Just my thought on things. I don't know the financial of something like this, of course, just putting to text the sort of system I like and would be happy to purchase if it were to go that way in the future.

  • danwdoo
    danwdoo Member Posts: 584 ✭✭✭

    I have a question about connect and resources. If I subscribe to essentials, I then gain access to 144 digital books (sadly most of which I already own). I will then have access to these books for as long as I am a subscriber.

    However, what happens when Logos 9 comes out? Are these connect tiers like the base packages where the books are periodically switched out for new ones with new versions of Logos? That could create a bad situation if I become accustomed to an expensive resource I have been renting during current life cycle (2 years potentially or whenever 9 comes). Then I might be faced with both price increases as well as having to purchase a resource I came to rely on but will lose access to even though I am still a subscriber. This is one reason I wish that essentials more closely matched what the term 'essentials' typically brings to mind, which is just the program, features, datasets, and maybe the free book offers.

  • m wilson
    m wilson Member Posts: 30 ✭✭

    But until we can get the whole Church purchasing Bible software (we're working on it!) we need to find a sweet spot of the lowest price that covers the costs.

    Let's suppose your dream came true and the entire church used FL software: then what? Where will you get the new customers and new revenue streams that you WILL NEED since, your business model requires that you can never stop growing? When is enough ever enough?

    Moral of the story: FL must continually grows its customer base or die.

    Unfortunately, that is the software business and tells me that subscription only for Logos features is not far away, no matter what they say.

    I have no problem with that except for one thing:

    Those who have invested a lot in the platform that got it where it is today should be first on your mind, not last. FL should think long and hard about keeping them as strong advocates for Logos, not bitter subscribers.

    BTW, this is why I also own and very much appreciate software from one of your competitors. It costs little more than one year of FLC Essentials and, with things like original language/lemma/ queries etc, provides far greater power and functionality than Logos. They know their lane and stick to it. Thus, it is the one piece of BIble software I feel most confident will be around for a long time and maintain ecxcellent functionality.  

  • Thinking
    Thinking Member Posts: 368 ✭✭

    I don't think you have a model that is going to work no matter how desperately you need it to, but of course, we'll just have to wait and see.

    Your observation is spot on.

  • Andrew116
    Andrew116 Member Posts: 155 ✭✭

    Bob thank you for taking the time to explain. 

    All that you have said might be well and good, but is there a lesson for you in this about the order of things?

    a company that is trusted does not have the panic seen here. 

    this Excellent explanation should have come a week, a year, before making the change. 

  • Thinking
    Thinking Member Posts: 368 ✭✭

    m wilson said:

    Where will you get the new customers and new revenue streams that you WILL NEED since, your business model requires that you can never stop growing? When is enough ever enough?

    Moral of the story: FL must continually grows its customer base or die.

    Unfortunately, that is the software business and tells me that subscription only for Logos features is not far away, no matter what they say.

    Bingo. Since there is no customer "demand" for such a service, inevitably it has to be forced. The present action of folding LN into Faithlife Connect is the next step. Notice that Bob is no longer saying that a subscription only model won't happen, he is now saying he doesn't "plan" for it to happen.

    I wish Bob well, but, I do not see how a Bible software subscription model can be very successful. The reality is that our base is limited, our finances are limited, and there are  many Bible software options available, including free.  Logos' wishing will not change that reality.

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out. But this move introduces uncertainty about Logos' long-term intentions and sustainability. If this uncertainty becomes general, sales will noticeably decrease. We will see what happens.

  • Mark Barnes
    Mark Barnes Member Posts: 15,432 ✭✭✭

    With that said, Bob, why don't you just sell the software? Its worked for thousands of companies for a very long time. I happily purchase new versions of software if there are compelling reasons to do so. If not, I usually buy every other upgrade.

    They can’t do that b cause they spent 15 years saying (or at least strongly implying) that the software was free, you just pay for the books. Many people who’ve invested hundreds or thousands of dollars would be horrified if they had to pay for software upgrades to keep using Logos when the ‘old‘ version becomes incompatible with their new computer, or because they want to buy one book which only works with the latest version. 

    This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

  • abondservant
    abondservant Member Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭

    Forcing people like myself who have paid 10k, and have 10k still being paid off are on the short end of the stick when it comes to subscriptions.

    I don't have access to your individual email credit offer at the moment (I'm on the road), but I know that we're paying particular attention to users with significant investments in the purchased resources. If you've spent $10k with us, that's a significant investment we appreciate, and the difference in price between the two subscriptions is small in comparison. This should already have been addressed, or will be soon.

    I'm not going to get one - and thats probably as it should be. I was unable to afford now when the renewal came up and let it drop. I'm not fishing for a credit. It still feels like you are moving away from the model I've invested heavily in (checked my spreadhseet that tracks my purchases its actually about 13k). With so much spent, and 7k yet to go on a student and pastors salary big changes that are unfavorable to my model - hearing that its a model you want to get away from (that I have supported with a significant investment, and significant commitment to continued investment eg payment plan) and are taking steps that direction is an alarming turn of events.

    Especially when you say things like no body was really buying cloud, so lets "double down" on it.

    We wouldn't do it that way if we were starting from scratch today, but that's where we are based on history and user expectations.

    It worked too well, and the tail began to wag the dog. Logos Cloud didn't mature quickly enough (because it needed a stronger web app, which wasn't yet there) and Logos Now's 'new features every six weeks started to feel like its primary benefit.

    New customers, who should have only needed to choose between "Buy" or "Subscribe" were regularly being sent into a very confusing, and frustrating, pitch to both buy AND subscribe. Pure subscription wasn't attractive enough (without larger libraries and a pure-web solution), but just buying and owning felt 'left out' because Logos Now offered 'new stuff without the wait.'

    Worse, as the tail wagged the dog, Logos Now subscribers (who turned out to vastly outnumber Logos Cloud subscribers) began seeing the product's entire value as the regular release of new features. (Which was not the original intention.)

    I could be wrong, but for me it wasn't the 6 week cycle that I saw as the value when I had subscribed to it, it was being a part of the cutting edge. If that takes 5 or 6 months or more, I was willing to pay (when i could afford it) to be a part of that. Plus the discounts, and free books, and so forth. When I was subscribing I didn't even realize there was a 6 week cycle.

    Maybe I'm alone in not caring about the 6 week element. I doubt it.

    I also don't care about a web app. I doubt I'll have a need for faithlife tv. Its a neat idea. But I don't even own a tv. Much less a roku. I probably have an apple tv (1st gen maybe?) in a box somewhere. The courses are a nice touch, and if I could subscribe to two courses a year (without the books, and with the old now benefits I'd be interested) but honestly I'm not going to be able to spend the 20$ monthly (what I have going out is a struggle as is). Not until the church grows and then eventually pays me more money, or seminary becomes free (or finished) - 9 classes left, and at my current rate, I'll graduate in 9 more years.

    L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    They can’t do that b cause they spent 15 years saying (or at least strongly implying) that the software was free, you just pay for the books. Many people who’ve invested hundreds or thousands of dollars would be horrified if they had to pay for software upgrades to keep using Logos when the ‘old‘ version becomes incompatible with their new computer, or because they want to buy one book which only works with the latest version. 

    Yeah, there would be a period of adjustment, but so what? Business models don't stay the same forever. If this can help fund development in a more reliable way than these other schemes do, why not do it? Plus, it would actually be less confusing because most people are used to paying for the latest software release. That's been the norm for decades for the entire industry.

    Maintaining current hardware and software is the cost of doing business in the digital age. We all know this. Logos has dealt with funding the software portion by growing their marketshare for books, but obviously that's not paying the bills anymore.

    If we could just pay for the software updates and buy books like we've always been doing, and do away with this stupid subscription stuff, I think everyone would be a lot happier.

    The whole thing would certainly be a lot simpler.

  • Ruurd Offringa
    Ruurd Offringa Member Posts: 24 ✭✭

    I've been thinking about what other model would work for both FL and the customers, and I understand the need and desire to go towards a subscription model. I think you can successfully do this with just tweaking and reprioritising what you already have.

    Logos is in a bit of a unique situation where you have both advanced software and resources. It's sort of like Amazon Kindle and Microsoft Office combined, where you buy resources but also get very powerful tools to work with your resources.

    You mention that your subscription model, Logos Now, failed because of lack of uptake. I think that main reason this happened was because it wasn't implemented as the default purchase method for new customers and version upgrades. If you change your website so that the default purchase method was a subscription service, you could steer new customers to this, and promote it to new customers.

    May I suggest going with a subscription model for your software, plus outright purchase for books?

    I would suggest the following model: (I've just put some prices in to flesh out the idea - I don't know if they are realistic for FL's profitability)

    Users first choose the software & feature package. Include the option of outright purchase for those who want it, but make that the secondary purchase option, not the first.  Also allow for dynamic pricing so that a percentage of the subscription fee would go towards the full purchase price - this would allow people to lock in features at some future point - e.g at retirement. This step would be a slight modification of your Feature Set purchase option.

    1. Basic Logos Engine - Free (would just give basic function and access to all purchased resources)
    2. Logos Starter - $50/year (would provide some basic features suitable for casual Bible study)
    3. Logos Advanced - $100/year (would provide more features, plus one free book a month)
    4. Logos Pro - $150/year (would provide all features, plus two free books a month)

    Users choose a base library package to purchase outright. Possibly give one year free subscription to one of the above levels, based on the size of the purchased library. Splitting the library package from the software features may allow you to be able to decrease the cost of the base packages - making Logos more attractive.

    Choose add-on subscriptions. This would include things like:

    1. Faithlife TV - $50/year
    2. Proclaim -$50/year
    3. Mobile Ed 1 - one course per year - $50/year
    4. Mobile Ed 2 - three courses per year - $120/year

    Another thing that I noticed was a couple of mentions about people buying less.  This is to be expected as your larger customers run out of stuff they need/want to buy.  This is also why (as others have said)  you need a strong focus on getting new customers - particularly those with no library, who will likely be future big buyers. I'm thinking particularly of seminary students. I'm not familiar with what you do in order to promote Logos to seminary students, so forgive me if I'm suggesting thing you already do.  My thoughts were:

    1. Offer one year free subscription to the Logos Pro software & feature package described above. This introduces them to the product and its features with no financial risk.
    2. Offer textbook packages - at least common generic ones - ideally customized to each seminary (I know this would likely be a lot of work and may not be feasible). Students have to buy the textbooks anyway, and this would be a great way to get them to start committing to Logos as their main platform for Bible study.
    3. Keep up with book editions (I understand that you can't afford to freely upgrade book editions, but please allow for multiple editions of books in your store). I've had to buy one or two textbooks from Amazon because Logos didn't have the latest edition.

    I think my first suggestion could help transition Logos to subscription service, while not upsetting current users by including dynamic pricing and still allowing outright purchase, while the second suggestion would help FL to gain future big-spending customers before they have committed to competitor products, supporting the long term viability of Logos.

    Hopefully my suggestions are useful to FL. I really want to see FL continue to do well in the future.

  • JT (alabama24)
    JT (alabama24) MVP Posts: 36,523

    They can’t do that b cause they spent 15 years saying (or at least strongly implying) that the software was free, you just pay for the books. Many people who’ve invested hundreds or thousands of dollars would be horrified if they had to pay for software upgrades to keep using Logos when the ‘old‘ version becomes incompatible with their new computer, or because they want to buy one book which only works with the latest version. 

    Yeah, there would be a period of adjustment, but so what? Business models don't stay the same forever. If this can help fund development in a more reliable way than these other schemes do, why not do it? Plus, it would actually be less confusing because most people are used to paying for the latest software release. That's been the norm for decades for the entire industry.

    Maintaining current hardware and software is the cost of doing business in the digital age. We all know this. Logos has dealt with funding the software portion by growing their marketshare for books, but obviously that's not paying the bills anymore.

    If we could just pay for the software updates and buy books like we've always been doing, and do away with this stupid subscription stuff, I think everyone would be a lot happier.

    The whole thing would certainly be a lot simpler.

    so give me an example. L8 would cost...???

    macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
    Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!

  • Allen Browne
    Allen Browne Member Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭

    Hi Bob

    Thanks for sharing.

    I don’t feel hard done by: I never did sign up for Logos Now, and I don’t plan to sign up for Faithlife Connect.

    I don’t want a subscription model. I don’t want temporary books that disappear after I’ve done the work of reading them and marking them up. I don’t want TV or video. I just want to keep researching the 8000 books I’ve bought over 10 years, and others I'm still buying.

    Perhaps I’m the odd one out. Or perhaps there there is strong resistance to being dragged into a subscription model. Perhaps that's why “only a small portion of the customer base subscribed” to Logos Now.

    Thanks for listening.

  • Cromwell
    Cromwell Member Posts: 55 ✭✭

    Bob,

    Your willingness to interact here is always greatly appreciated.

    The order for a new product seems to be (1) Public sales pitch, (2) Personal email, (3) Business rationale on the forums.  LN had a public sales pitch focused on features but your business rationale here on the forums focussed on the need for a subscription model.  Upset seems to have been caused with the new offerings as (1) came before (2) and (3).

    With LN, I read your rationale to exegete the sales pitch, expected LN’s initial excitement to decline, and opted to give you my money through upgrades like L7 not subscription.  I’m ready to part with cash to keep the software updated so I can keep using my resources and the great features.  I prefer to buy because it is clearer what I am getting.

    But, I am concerned by the bundling of Faithlife TV and mobile ed etc.  Despite being a big Logos fan, and daily user, I advised a friend not to buy Logos 7 before Christmas but to wait to compare Logos 8 with the competition.  This was because the base packages had too much breadth (like mobile ed) and lacked as many quality commentary series (like NAC) in the more affordable packages as previously – for day-to-day sermon-prep Logos 5/6 seemed to have better bundles.

    I’m happy to continue to upgrade, even to subscribe if absolutely necessary – especially if L8 improves speed (the main Logos weakness).  But, should a more costly bundle with TV etc be necessary, I would be forced to consider whether a switch to a more focussed (and faster) Bible  Software product was prudent in the long run.  I hope this won’t be the case.

  • Don Awalt
    Don Awalt Member Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭

    Unfortunately, the math wasn't paying the bills. Logos Now needed a significant percentage of the user base to adopt it in order to cover ongoing development costs. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the customer base subscribed, and in most cases, that subscription resulted in a lower annual spend from those users.

    Bob, I think you have missed the point of what your customers are telling you:

    1. The value of Logos Now was early access to features (you know that, well documented here)

    2. Which means the "extras" that were added in, were perceived to be of lower interest - FL has invested tons in a lot of ancillary products, services, offerings that are not profitable on their own, and never have been. Will they ever?

    3. As Logos Now morphs into Connect, more ancillary products, services, offerings have been bundled in - and by necessity the price is doubled. Yet still people just want full access to all features of Logos - why would this succeed if the same thing on a lower scale failed in Logos Now?

    So what happens next - if history repeats itself, that people won't be forced to pay by subscription for a lot of stuff they don't really want (that message is ALL OVER the threads on here), doesn't this just force everyone back to a purchase model? Aren't all the original business problems then still unaddressed satisfactorily?

    The crux of the issue is that FL has developed a lot of extra stuff that is not profitable. People will not be forced to pay for them on subscription. What indicates that Logos Connect will be SIGNIFICANTLY more successful that the 1.8% of revenue of Logos Now, as that is what FL needs? It seems that the prudent business measure being ignored is to kill the extras that are not profitable if people don't want them.

  • Don Awalt
    Don Awalt Member Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭

    Cable companies want $50/month for 200 channels; they offer lots of configurations and plans yet it seems the total always comes out to $50... why can't I just buy the channels I want for 25 cents each? I just want four, and $1/month is much better than $50...

    Bad analogy...cord cutting is decimating the traditional cable/satellite subscription model because they refused exactly this, or to say it differently they refused to listen to what their customers wanted, and tried to force a lot of extra bloat on them at higher prices. There are quite a few "micro" packages of much smaller focused content that people are buying at much faster growth rates that the loss of customers cable companies are experiencing. THIS is the analogy to adding more unwanted bloat to a Logos subscription at double the cost.

  • Thinking
    Thinking Member Posts: 368 ✭✭

    Don Awalt said:

    Bob, I think you have missed the point of what your customers are telling you

    Your post is golden. I hope Bob listens to you. Logos is simply not listening to what the market has been saying.

    Don Awalt said:

    why would this succeed if the same thing on a lower scale failed in Logos Now?

    Exactly. This is simply repeating what has worked, hoping it will work this time. Is Logos depicting someone's definition of insanity?

  • Don Awalt
    Don Awalt Member Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭

    But if what you're asking for is "more for less", there are going to be some limits in every business, no matter how customer-friendly. We keep trying -- and over the long arc of our business, I think the evidence is there that we have delivered that -- but it has to make sense for survival. 

    Instead of looking at the business as "How can we be profitable with the products, services etc. that we want customers to buy", after all this time why not think about "How can we be profitable selling what customers want"? People here want features - ways to do more with what they already have - they need help in using the product better, it is very sophisticated and most would say they use a small percentage of the features yet there is this hope that one day they will use more. They want quality - performance - usability features that get long ignored. And yes they still want books - quality books that are cornerstones of their faith if they can be published in a reasonable timeframe.

    It seems there is a lot of potential there that people would pay for, and jettison those ventures that nobody wants...

  • Don Awalt
    Don Awalt Member Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭

    Which is why Spotify doesn't give me credit for all the CDs I bought years ago... and Netflix doesn't credit me the movie tickets I bought when the films were new releases... and my Microsoft Office 365 subscription isn't cheaper because I've bought 5 copies of the whole Office suite with or for various computers over the years... 

    Bad analogy - No one would subscribe to Spotify if they only had 10% more songs than I had my CD library - and crummy songs too. This is why your large library holders see significant value loss in a subscription plan that does not consider their own library.

    Office 365 subscription cost is at or even a little lower than waiting to buy the next CD. This is comparable to the value people saw in Logos Now. You notice over the years Microsoft has pared away unwanted/unprofitable features in Office that no one wanted, and that just increased the cost. I wonder why FL doesn't consider this in its subscription model (which by the way most do not have an issue with as this post shows, the issue is the value for the cost).

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Thinking said:

    We also need to support the pure transactional model for people who want to 'buy it, own it, and not have to pay again.' That's what we've always offered, and what we plan to continue to offer.

    That is a very worrisome statement. It is far less assuring than statements you have made in the past.

    I'm sorry -- I didn't mean it to be any different than past statements on the subject. We have no plans to discontinue the transactional model.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    I hate all software subscription models, and prefer owning the software.

    Greg, I think what you're proposing is (half of) what we're doing: we're going back to just selling the software, which should meet your needs and those of many others. And then, for people starting from scratch or who prefer subscription, we're creating a subscription offering.

    Or am I misunderstanding?

    EDIT: I was misunderstanding... I now see you meant charging for the updates to the software... but I think that would break more expectations from even more users than discontinuing offering Logos Now, though you're right it might be an alternate solution.