Logos Now and Faithlife Connect: The Why

As noted earlier, my weather app ended subscriptions; no warning.  Full-screen adverts.

And the angry bees dutifully began a long string of 1-stars, etc. Customers DO pipe up.

Bob has asked us to keep our angry-bee comments in-house (the forum).  That’s fair.

David, Thank you for you post ... I enjoyed the Grace and Pace of it, after so many frenetic posts of the last couple of days. 

That said, whilst I largely agree with you, and many other posters along the way, I am left wondering if there really is another model with which we can compare Logos?

I cannot think of another situation where I have so much invested in the success of a company. If Netflix et. al change ... I can swap with no loss; if Microsoft change, I can swap with little cost; if Adobe move to a subscription model I can ... (oooops already stopped using their software!!!). If Ford asked me to start paying a rental on the car I already own ... then I sell and move on .... BUT Logos is different. It is, at this point for me, a monopoly ... unless Accordance said that they would honour my licenses if I would start purchasing from them ... I am kinda attached to the fortunes of Logos. My investment there is considerably more than anything Ford, GM etc. have ever gotten out of me combined ... and I cannot just walk away to another service provider.

The continual health of Logos is one of the reasons that I subscribed to LN. Most of the 'new features' and data sets are fluff; the previews are a pain cluttering up my library ... the free books are largely PD padding. It is the need for the existence of Logos into the future that largely motivated me; in the same way as when I paid for the Logos for Mac version 1.0 ... it was not really in expectation for a return but in response that software costs ... and I am happy to pay a reasonable amount for their continued service.

That said ... I think that Logos has acted honourably with the vouchers and the advanced notice ... and like you I really wish they could sort out their identity crises! Thank you Bob, Chris and Phil etc. for being in these forums ... thank you for listening ...

Matt Hudson said:

I think it would be different if a comparable online service (Amazon Prime or Netflix) did this. If an online service cancels their whole service, gives it a new name, then offers the same service back to their users at twice the price, I have a sense many, many customers would have plenty of complaints and suggestions for the company. And rightly so. 

It certainly is FL's decision to make. But, paying customers have every expectation that they will be treated fairly by that company. Bob can do what he wants. But, he should not be surprised if customers feel treated badly, or even like they've been tricked by this move.

Did they cancel their whole service and then offer the same thing? Is it the _same_ product?

Seems like it is a slightly different product. From what I can tell, they are discontinuing Logos Now. Not a name change, but completely discontinuing it. Before FL had Logos Now and Logos Cloud. They've created a third subscription option, FL Connect. 

Perhaps they should have simply raised the price for LN. I guess they decided that would have made people mad. 

From what I can tell, FL is saying the closest product to LN with similar features is FL Connect Essentials at $108/yr. 

I'm not sure FL did a great job of explaining what was happening, but I could be wrong. Looks like FL has 

1) Gotten rid of Logos Now completely. It is gone.

2) Rolled Logos Cloud into FaithLife Connect see: https://logoscloud.com/products/138567/logos-cloud-starter

- While the above link says that Logos Cloud is now part of FaithLife Connect, there isn't any way to purchase Logos Cloud separately. So, I wonder if Logos Cloud is effectively gone as well. Makes sense to have one product rather than two (or three).

3) Introduced (?? Not sure if this was a product before or not) FL Connect with has Logos Cloud + FaithLife TV. 

Sure, there may be features of LN that people liked and depended on. Sure, FL Connect might cost more and have FL TV that isn't wanted. But, in the end, it seems like to me that FL Connect is a new product and they are discontinuing LN. 

It will be interesting to see the outcries cause any changes. Bob seems to want to do right by the customers.  

Danny Parker said:

It makes it much harder though when you have a 5 digit dollar investment in the company. Hard to just walk away and take your business elsewhere.That I think is some of the reaction. We as a long term user base are locked tightly into the service, and we are concerned with the direction and the continually increasing cost. This is especially true when it appears that what matters to me increases substantially in cost, while these increases fund features I have no interest in (and question if those features will ever be self supporting).

Let's not even talk about TV services and their bundling. That is another topic that causes me to lose my Christian testimony.

Danny, I understand. While I haven't invested 5 digits, I am over $5,000 of resources, which, as I understand it, I can continue to use forever. The decision I will make is whether to keep upgrading or not. Do I need the new features? Probably not. While always nice, Logos is a fairly mature product. I do use the web app and will probably have to pony up $200/year to keep it, or purchase the features. It's not that I like it. 

I realize that Bob is running FL the best he believes and has statistics, information, etc. that I do not have. Companies make these sort of decisions and I'm left to make my own. Perhaps Bob and FL have run the numbers and decided that having all of the customers who used LN leave was better than continuing the way things were. 

I'm sure he hopes that customers don't leave. Yet, there are times when a short-term loss leads to a long-term gain. If it means FL continues, grows, and provides better and better resources and tools, well, I can't say I can fault their decision. They may be wrong. They may be very wrong. As always, time will tell.

Wish all of you a peaceful evening, and a worshipful weekend.

Peace, David.

Martin Folley said:

BUT Logos is different. It is, at this point for me, a monopoly

...which is y I get on their case some.  I do not want to be taken for granted; the monopoly can lend itself to that process.  We, the consumers, need 2b vigilant.

David Mullens said:

I believe Bob said one of the challenges with LN was the feature upgrades. I wonder what the reaction would be if they would have simply removed that part of LN and charged the same amount.

I think the reaction from what has been posted is that it would have been fine.  I am another one who forgot that LN included upgrades every 6 months.  It was also with me, not an important issue.

What made LN important to me:

1. I could support the development on the software for a price not too high

2. For that support, I would receive upgrades as the build the program towards L8 so when L8 comes out, there are few surprises for me

3. For that support, I would not have as big of a sticker shock when L8 comes out.  I would be able to upgrade to L8 cheaper because I had paid a bit over time.

Others could have different reasons for liking LN.  There were my reasons.

FLC has too many features for me to use.  I can do without all of them.  And I am fine with waiting for new features when L8 comes or L9 comes.

C Stutzman said:

I will never post a question on these boards, because there is a real good chance that the information will either be not complete, or it will be answered in a negative fashion.

Please do not hesitate to post, say, a how-do-I-do-this question.  U will get polite, helpful responses. Reasking will promote the same helpful reply......I ask some silly questions + do get great responses.

Wait a week.  Go back to the forums.  Look at the how-to questions.      

MJ. Smith said:

Typo: make that 6 weeks.

Thanks MJ for the correction

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your full disclosure and forthrightness. That is much further and honest than most businesses would care to go with their customer base. I'm sure you're in a difficult place and this stings just as much for you as it does for your customers. Change is difficult.

I would have to say that it's quite unfortunate that not enough customers were able to signup for LN. Both for the customer base and FL.

In my opinion FL is going down the road they need to go. I have not used and do not care to use the web based app at this point. However, I can see that in order to remain relevant and affordable to a (potentially) larger user base (revenue stream) FL has to provide a more attractive pricing model to a newer generation of believers and students of the word. That is your future and if you fail to execute the transition the business will not survive. While I may not like it personally I applaud you and FL for not shying away from attempting to make it happen.

I'm in the group who have made a significant investment in resources but have not added significantly to that investment in the past 2 years. I, like others, appreciated the LN subscription as it made sense. A couple of reasons for not purchasing more resources. 1) I don't need a significant number of new resources at this time, and 2) My primary device is an 8 inch Windows tablet and with a large library I cannot realistically add many more resources and have everything still run on the tablet due to space constraints.

I can understand those who are upset and unable to afford keeping up with feature set upgrades in new releases. I'm not in the financially struggling category although many of the Logos users in my circle of friends are in that category so I really understand their frustrations over what appears to be unnecessary features and services.

I think what I hear you saying Bob is that the FL Connect pricing point of ~$20/mo is what would work for customers like myself and FL to be in a win/win situation with feature set upgrades paying for software development costs. I just checked on my price to do a feature set upgrade on my Ultimate Collection and it would be around $2,500. Even if major releases of the software occurred every 3 years, my math shows that $720 is less than $2,500. Even though I don't like paying an extra $11/mo it is still a bargain in comparison to purchasing the feature set upgrade. And, for myself, I can actually afford to pay it.

There are two things that, in my opinion, would benefit everyone going forward. (I'm speaking of the core bible study product, not the extras such as FL TV. I have never used the extras so I don't have an opinion of them)

1) For those who can afford it, and are in a situation similar to mine, let's get behind this change and signup for it. If FL can succeed in getting the software into the hands of a new generation, using whatever (subscription, rental...) model, we all benefit. The more we use and support it the more can be invested in it. For those of us who are already LN users we are paid for already on FL Connect for the next 14 months, I believe, plus Bob sent us all credits to help in purchasing feature upgrades.

2) I would love to see some kind of special pricing for those users who have been around for a while (nice way of saying older like me) and have made a significant investment in resources over the years. That way they can keep up with new features in an affordable way. Some of these believers are those who could benefit the most and provide the most benefit and blessing to those they minister to.

I know the second item would be the most difficult to implement. There would need to be a way of determining who qualifies and not everyone would be happy in the end but the other side is that those who know the software best and could use new features and upgrades the most are stuck on the outside looking in because they can no longer afford it.

If there is a way to do it I will return the credit sent to me so someone more in need could use it to purchase a feature upgrade. Others probably have some better thoughts about how to help FL help all of us make it through this transition so that we all benefit. I do believe it would be very helpful, for those of us who are able, to signup for FL Connect and fully support FL as they work through this with us. The transition is definitely painful for many but in my opinion absolutely necessary for all of us to come out on the right side of things.

Thank you for listening,

William

Hi Paul,

I guess I was confused and used the price for upgrading the Collectors Edition base package to v7. The $2,500 is the dynamic price for that upgrade. My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.

As far as the Extended Feature Set I'm seeing $879 instead and on sale for $679. I don't see the $799. Now we are closer to $740 for 3 years.

Maybe someone from FL can comment on and clarify on pricing for the extended feature set.

Seems closer to a wash depending on how one values the extras and on the actual cadence of new releases. It could still be a bargain without the extras if the release cadence is closer to 2 years.

Although we don't know the actual launch date for Logos 8 it's been less than 2 years since Logos 7 launched. The cadence between Logos 6 and 7 was slightly less than 2 years.

Based on release cadence of closer to 2 years I would still hold my position that FL Connect is a bargain for those who can afford to update their feature sets and want to pay less than purchasing to own. Although you could also argue that since the difference is less maybe it's better to purchase to own. I believe though we would be helping FL more by subscribing since they would have a somewhat more predictable revenue stream vs. not knowing for sure what percentage of installed base will purchase the upgrade with each new release until it comes out.

Thanks again,

William

It's important for everyone to realise that once you have a full feature set, upgrading to the next one will probably cost less than a Logos Now subscription. I had the Logos 6 Feature Set (or whatever it was called then), and buying the Logos 7 Extended Feature Set only cost me $70.21 on a 50% off Black Friday deal.

As Logos upgrades tend to happen every two years, that's a lot cheaper than the $200 I'd have paid for Logos Now over that same time.

I obviously have no idea how much I'll have to pay for the Logos 8 feature set, but I'd be surprised if I have to pay more than $200.

I have a question that I looked to see if someone else has posted yet but I couldn't find anything.  I am a current Logos Now subscriber that was automatically mapped to the Connect Starter subscription.  After looking the Starter subscription over I have no real interest in it, however I might I have an interest in the Connect Essentials subscription.  My question has to do with how Faithlife addresses the overlapping of a Logos Now subscription with an Essentials subscription.  My current Logos Now subscription doesn't expire until May and in the interim if I subscribe to Essentials it feels like I would be paying twice for the same benefits since Logos Now is essentially a subset of Essentials.  Has Faithlife addressed this scenario?

Bob Pritchett said:

Logos Now was an awesome deal, and we tried hard to get everyone to see that. But while you did, not enough did.

Logos Now maxed out somewhere near 1.8% of our annual revenue. That doesn't come close to making a dent in the cost of delivering it, let alone driving new product development and support.

What is your projection for annual revenue for FLC? From the discussion in this thread, I would expect a fraction adoption rate for FLC. Are you prepared to absorb this loss of revenue? Are you planning other shifts of services in the future that you would like to disclose? Since revenue from resources makes up the lion's share of your revenue base are you planning to further inflate prices here, risking an exodus to other software providers? 

I like many forum participants have a large library and I can easily forego further purchases if I don't see value. As has been glibly stated elsewhere at the end of the day the consumer will make decisions based on self-interest, I hope your projections assume these scenarios. 

Edit:It's interesting to me that such a small percentage of consumers can require a need for such a dramatic shift in services.

David Mullens said:

I'm not sure FaithLife Connect is even meant for me. It is meant for new customers, but not for folks who need specific resources.

David, here again, you have identified the core issue. However, I see things a little differently. The price point for new customers I believe is discouraging when you view the alternatives. And as you have aptly observed the tier of customers with large libraries are likewise discouraged at the present price point from becoming adopters. I'm one of those with a large library and I see no value in FLC, my money will migrate to other alternatives moving forward. 

After reading pretty much every post in every thread on this issue, and after further reflection, here are my current thoughts:

1) Connect is not a replacement for LN and never should have been implicitly positioned as such by automatically migrating people to one level or another in Connect. Bob's explanation clarifies that from FL's perspective, LN failed; and they went back to the drawing board for a new subscription model. The automatic migration contradicts Bob's explanation re. LN. If FL had simply given people a credit for the amount they had spent on LN and explained up front that Connect's target market is brand new Logos users, I suspect a lot of this drama and churn would have been avoided.

2) Mostly as a matter of curiosity, but partially as a matter of understanding Bob's comments, I'd love to know what portion of the $240/yr for Essentials is for benefits other than the core Logos application. Clearly they cost something, so after subtracting them out, whatever's left has to be in some way related to the "cost of doing business" to keep the core Logos application moving forward. FL / Bob don't owe me that, for sure, so I'm not expecting that level of detail. Just stating my interest in that detail...

3) Related to whatever that number would be, I have to wonder how FL's competitors can remain viable and profitable at < $100 / year upgrade prices when Bob says FL can't. As I said before, I'd pay ~$100/yr to know that I always had the latest features (including datasets), irrespective at what pace those features happened to be released. What I'd like to avoid is a new major release dropping and having to spend hundreds of dollars in one shot to get the latest features. But I think that's what I'm facing (albeit with a $200 credit the next time it happens).

My (most recent) $.02 ...

Donnie

Donnie Hale said:

3) Related to whatever that number would be, I have to wonder how FL's competitors can remain viable and profitable at < $100 / year upgrade prices when Bob says FL can't. 

FL has over 400 employees. I believe Accordance is around 50 (according to glassdoor), and OliveTree was around 20 when they were acquired by HarperCollins. They don't have to sell as much software to support their respective organizations. It's also possible that they're willing to "stay in their lane" while it looks like FL has more ... ambition.

I suspect what happened is that Logos went through a period of exponential growth when they offered deals that were too good to be true (e.g. the Christmas sale of 2011). That's what got me on board. That growth has probably slowed, but the growth of business expenses rarely slows, so now they probably have to fight for every penny that used to roll in easily.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

 

You're correct. There's currently a one-to-one relationship between the following:

• Logos 7 Basic Library and Logos Cloud Basic in Faithlife Connect Basic
• Logos 7 Starter Library and Logos Cloud Starter in Faithlife Connect Starter
• Logos 7 Bronze Library and Logos Cloud Essentials in Faithlife Connect Essentials
• Logos 7 Silver Library and Logos Cloud Standard in Faithlife Connect Standard
• Logos 7 Gold Library and Logos Cloud Plus in Faithlife Connect Plus
• Logos 7 Platinum Library and Logos Cloud Professional in Faithlife Connect Professional
• Logos 7 Diamond Library and Logos Cloud Premium in Faithlife Connect Premium
• Logos 7 Portfolio Library and Logos Cloud Ultimate in Faithlife Connect Ultimate

That will likely change when Logos 8 comes out. They won't necessarily stay in lockstep. It was the easiest way of improving the quality of Logos Cloud libraries when we did the Cloud relaunch last year.

But presently, for example, a Logos 7 Bronze or higher owner would gain no new Logos base package library resources by getting Faithlife Connect Essentials.

To reiterate my position again. First, no hard feelings. I was upset at first but you guys have responded and addressed my concerns. For that I thank you.

I am retired. I am a layperson and very rarely teach though I have/will participate in group discussions. I own the L7 starter feature set but Now gives me access to the full set. I estimate that like a lot of users I only utilize about 50% of the feature set. Part of that is ignorance about the features on my part and part is I just haven't needed some features. I'll wait until my Now expires on 11/27/18 and see if I lose any features that I commonly use. If I do lose any used features then I'll consider purchasing L8 if enough of the lost features are included in L8. Since I own the Silver base package I'll not get any new  resources from any of the Connect subscriptions.

I currently have 2700+ that includes a lot of books purchased with your Christmas special promotions that you used to do and by purchasing the NEBRL and the Baker offerings etc.

My path for now and the near future is to concentrate on specific resources that interest me and are relative to my area of interest; the spread of the Gospel in the early church. I'll also take advantage of my free book of the month until Now expires. I'll evaluate L8 and future versions as they come along and purchase as funds and need dictate. From here on out I'm in "own it mode".

Since the announcement last week, I have downloaded, installed and taken a serious look at Accordance, Pocket Bible and eSword. My conclusions on them are

• not as feature rich as Logos
• cheaper on lots of resources
• I have too many Logos resources that I would have to replace
• I would have a steep learning curve.

Final thoughts: I'm a happy and loyal (20+ years) Logos customer and that won't change. 

On the positive side I can appreciate the feedback and "justification" for switching from one product line to another...related to profitability.  I can also appreciate ownership expressing their editorial view on how the product will change for the better in the future.  Yet I recall numerous times that FL and its products is a business and is in the market for profit.  What strikes me is how in the lengthy sharing by ownership is how any of this is either my problem or my concern...it's the free market at work.  Another way of saying it is when a business screws up it's their problem...grow to fast...offer meaningless product lines...lose money...forcing endless software gimmicks on customers who may not enjoy them...just the way it rolls in business.  In the end, FL live or die, it just doesn't matter to me since I use other true bible software for my needs.  The only thing I would miss if FL disappears due to business mistakes will be the minor monetary investment ($1800.00 or so over 20 years) in Logos.  It's just business.

Hi Bob,

Here is a thought for FL to consider for those who signup for FL Connect at any subscription level.

Give a dollar for dollar credit for each month they are signed up for FL Connect to be used towards purchases to own such as new resources or feature set upgrades. It would basically be like paying in advance for purchases and building a credit to be used anytime desired. It couldn't be used towards subscriptions or anything considered rental in nature.

This would give incentive for purchasing to own while at the same time helping those not inclined to subscribe to get on board since this would in effect help in keeping up with feature set upgrades for each successive release.  This would offer value to those who currently see no value in FL Connect vs. purchasing feature set upgrades only.

Doing something like this might put subscriptions over the threshold where FL would be sitting on a nice revenue stream while incentivizing purchases at the same time. Anything purchased above and beyond the credits would be a win for FL in my opinion.

Just another thought to help us all.

Thanks again for listening,

William

Chris duMond said:

Beloved said:

The representative informed me that Verbum Now will be transitioned to FLC

Hi Beloved, I'm sorry you were given incorrect information. Verbum Now is not being transitioned into Faithlife Connect, nor do we have any current plans of doing that. I've asked our Customer Service Manager to reach out to you and help you get into Verbum Now, and to inform the rest of the Customer Service team that Verbum Now is an option for customers. Thanks.

I was told by CS that there is no way to do what I want. FYI, I will have to call back when my subscription expires to replace with Verbum Now. 

Just read through this thread. Some of it I skimmed. But that is over 3 hours I am not getting back.

I have been watching other software companies go subscription only and at the enterprise level only. As a pastor I have four basic needs out of my electronics: Bible study, word processing, time/project management, and communication.   

I went through a lot of Bible study software. Seedmaster, BibleWorks, NavPress, Zondervan, Ages, E4 Group, Accordance, Olive Tree, Quick Verse, WordSearch, and Logos. I chased features. I have by far have the largest investment in Logos in comparison to the others.

The time/project management software (will remain unnamed here) that I used for 9 years just went subscription based. I received a polite email. When I logged in to buy a subscription… there was not one. Everything was enterprise level. NO offering for a small business user base. Definitely no personal price offering. Needless to say I was upset. The CEO did not respond to my questions. There was no transition period. It was next month will cost you $$$$ every month to do what you have been doing for the last nine years because you purchased our software. Not to mention that the software auto-updated and immediately became unusable.

Bob, thank you. You have always responded personally to any question I have asked.

I remember in 1996, no one in the church I served used Bible software except me and one other staff member. We were Bible study nerds. We were like so many here, the early adopters, who have large resource libraries built over the years.

Our Bible software is very personal to us.

We freak out when changes take place. Freak out like someone just set our office and all our dead tree editions on fire.

Even 15 years ago, it was primarily just us Bible study nerds. Now I see different kinds of Bible software users. There are the scholars/academics. There are the preachers (not that the first group does not preach). There are church leaders/teachers. There are the devotional users. There are those who use mobile apps instead of print bibles in our pews.

I have watched Logos/FaithLife spanning that market. I have also watched Bob lead the company to reach out to the church visible like no other Christian company. Logos/Verbum Software has crossed denominational barriers to cater to our personal theological bents for the good of the Bride of Christ as a whole.

I remember loading Logos with a box full of floppy disks, then CD, then DVD, then download (that used to take days and days). But for over two decades, Logos has never denied me access to a single resource that I have purchased. They honored every serial number and converted them to the online licenses. They have even updated the older ones to work with the new engines for free. They store my documents and notes with my licenses at no extra to charge to me. I don't even have to remember my password because a human will answer the phone and reset it for me.

I am not sure how all of the new subscriptions will work. I am sure that L8 will be awesome.

I am also sure of this:

Bob Pritchett will admit the company’s failures, market misreads, and do everything that he can to provide products and services that are for the good of the church visible. And Bob Pritchett will keep his word. He has to me for over two decades.

My office is not on fire. My resources are safe. And thank you Faithlife for the $$$’s coupon head start on whatever is next.

And if you have read this long post, according to the Sermon Editor, that is 5 minutes you are not getting back.

Jeffrey S. Robison said:

And if you have read this long post, according to the Sermon Editor, that is 5 minutes you are not getting back.

[Y] Thanks for the post. I count it as a 5 minute positive investment:)

Jeffrey S. Robison said:

Bob Pritchett will admit the company’s failures, market misreads, and do everything that he can to provide products and services that are for the good of the church visible.

Jeffrey, I enjoyed reading your post.  Thanks.

You are welcome.