OT: Bibleworks ceases operation as of June 15, 2018
I guess this means there is just one direct competitor to Logos in the market for academic bible software:
[quote]
BibleWorks has been serving the church for 26 years by providing a suite of professional tools aimed at enabling students of the Word to “rightly divide the word of truth”. But it has become increasingly apparent over the last few years that the need for our services has diminished to the point where we believe the Lord would have us use our gifts in other ways. Accordingly as of June 15, 2018 BibleWorks will cease operation as a provider of Bible software tools. We make this announcement with sadness, but also with gratitude to God and thankfulness to a multitude of faithful users who have stayed with us for a large part of their adult lives. We know that you will have many questions going forward and we will do our best to answer some of them here.
source: www.bibleworks.com
Comments
-
Sad news
0 -
I wonder if there's a possibiliy for Faithlife to acquire the multitude of licences Bibleworks has for non-English bibles and related stuff, such as hi-res images of manuscripts etc.
Have joy in the Lord!
0 -
just bought version 10..
0 -
NB.Mick said:
I wonder if there's a possibiliy for Faithlife to acquire the multitude of licences Bibleworks has for non-English bibles and related stuff, such as hi-res images of manuscripts etc.
There's already more discussion about it here than on the BW forum itself. That tells me something about their current economic status...
I remember using BW 2 or 3 like an eternity ago.
I would assume that there's a lot more to acquire than licenses. They have modules that Logos doesn't have, they have a customer base of unknown size, which, when acquired by FL would certainly also boost all those PP and CP titles that have been dead in the water for ages.
I hope that Bob is investigating options. It would really be a shame to see all that go to waste.
0 -
Sad. I have two monitors on my desk and normally Logos is open on one and Bibleworks is open on the other. I use them both daily.
0 -
Nord Zootman said:
Logos is open on one and Bibleworks is open on the other. I use them both daily.
I guess you must have a very good reason to do that. Would be interesting to know details!
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
0 -
I do something similar. The primary reason? Speed. Bibleworks destroys when it comes to speed and doesn't require specialized hardware (looking at you SSD) to run efficiently. Secondary reason? It's just me and the text without a ton of extra stuff. Yes, I know I can set Logos up the same way but it feels different in Bibleworks from my perspective. I guess it boils down to different design philosophies. However, I think Bibleworks UI is ugly.
0 -
I also use both. Bibleworks was my first Bible software purchase (v.4) and I stuck with it through the years. Yes, the user interface is ugly, but it gets to the information you need right away. I will keep on using them as long as I can.
0 -
Veli Voipio said:
I guess you must have a very good reason to do that. Would be interesting to know details!
Speed and familiarity. I have used Logos since version 2 (maybe even earlier) but started using Bibleworks a number of years ago. At that time it could do grammatical searches in the origional languages that Logos did not do or at least did not do well. It's focus has always been the analysis of the text rather than building a library. I agree with others that it's ui is utilitarian looking at best, but it just works very very well at what it does. At the same time I have continued to build a library in Logos that I rely on as well.
0 -
I also use both Logos and Bible Works daily. I had Bible Works prior to Logos and like its speed and simplicity.
0 -
The closing down of Bibleworks is something I never want to read about for Logos and Faithlife. Though we occasionally complain and bicker about pricing, we want Logos always to remain viable, both for its employees and us as consumers.
0 -
IMHO FaithLife should consider acquiring and supporting BibleWorks.
0 -
I do the same Nord, like you I've been a long term user of both, but Hermeneutika came first on my ancient hard drive and familiarity just sped me along despite getting to know and use Logos efficiently. I have many thousands of chapter and verse notes in that program and I'm now contemplating the best way to secure them against the day that my BW just stops working. However distant that day may be.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Ted Weis said:
The closing down of Bibleworks is something I never want to read about for Logos and Faithlife. Though we occasionally complain and bicker about pricing, we want Logos always to remain viable, both for its employees and us as consumers.
It's interesting that part of BibleWorks stated Company Vision reads as follows:
We exist to serve the church, not to make a profit, and all of our business decisions are made with that in mind. Our goal is to provide a complete package containing the tools most essential for the task of interpreting the Scriptures in the original Greek and Hebrew, and to do it at a price that poor pastors and students can afford. To accomplish this task we routinely make marketing and sales decisions that many would consider to be bad business but which serve our primary goals.
While I admire their stated, highly altruistic goal(s), not making a profit and bad marketing and sales decisions are ultimately going to be death in the pot (barring some miraculous intervention). By operating this way they insured that BW would only be available for a generation or two and not beyond. I am sorry to see them go.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
0 -
IMHO, there is more optimism being expressed about this topic on the BibleWorks forum along with more details from their developer(s).
0 -
I began using BW with 9, more as a way to refocus my attention on core details. I still have no idea about 95% of the controls, but I really like the simplicity of setting my mind and eyes on Scripture..
I hope someone will step up to the plate and help them find a way to become sustainable and active again..
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
0 -
Ted Weis said:
The closing down of Bibleworks is something I never want to read about for Logos and Faithlife.
I'm with you! I posted some thoughts on this:
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:Ted Weis said:
The closing down of Bibleworks is something I never want to read about for Logos and Faithlife.
I'm with you! I posted some thoughts on this:
Remember: The only constant in life; is change.
Author, Dan Phillips' post is interesting. Read it here: https://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?6955-The-discontinuation-of-BW-is-devastating-news
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
0 -
Since BW will no longer be a Logos competitor, I think this is ok-ish?
If you don't have BW (I don't), picking up a copy can be a good idea (depending on your interests):
- They plan to maintain system compatibility updates for a good while; basically just no major updates. Forum active and knowlegebase available.
- Runs on either Windows or Mac
- Almost 1/2 price. Can download (huge) or a thumb-drive
They have quite a bit I currently can't get from Logos, so I'll likely get v10, plus several aramaic pieces. Sort of how I have Accordance & Carta.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
Denise said:
If you don't have BW (I don't), picking up a copy can be a good idea (depending on your interests):
Learning a new user interface can be challenge. But i am tempted.
Lemma searches are good in Logos, but they are limited to pre-tagged meanings, for example Hebrew "Adam".
Sometimes I would like to find all words "Adam" אדמ regardless of the pre-tagged sense or vowel marks. I guess BW can do it.
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
0 -
Veli Voipio said:
Sometimes I would like to find all words "Adam" אדמ regardless of the pre-tagged sense or vowel marks.
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
Keep Smiling
Incredible! Thanks a lot KS4J! I did not know that, sorry [:$], should have checked the help...
I have to use two searches, for מ and ם , but it works!
[match nomarks] *אדם*
[match nomarks] *אדמ*
The searches with the asterisks take long time, but I don't care.
Saved my day and perhaps some money. Bob might also be happy!
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
0 -
I've never used BW. But considering how commonly used it is among seminarians and pastors, and the fact that it is closing down and now on sale for half price for 2 more weeks, is it worth purchasing it now? Note: I'm not familiar with the OL's.
Thanks,
Peter
0 -
Denise said:
Since BW will no longer be a Logos competitor, I think this is ok-ish?
If you don't have BW (I don't), picking up a copy can be a good idea (depending on your interests):
- They plan to maintain system compatibility updates for a good while; basically just no major updates. Forum active and knowlegebase available.
- Runs on either Windows or Mac
- Almost 1/2 price. Can download (huge) or a thumb-drive
They have quite a bit I currently can't get from Logos, so I'll likely get v10, plus several aramaic pieces. Sort of how I have Accordance & Carta.
I have been considering purchasing it as well; I did the same as you Denise, purchased some things in Accordance (primarily Carta resources and photo collections). Years ago I tried Bibleworks but was writing papers for seminary and they did not have access to journals and commentary resources I was looking for so went with Logos).
I am sorry to see time go out of business.
0 -
PL said:
I've never used BW. But considering how commonly used it is among seminarians and pastors, and the fact that it is closing down and now on sale for half price for 2 more weeks, is it worth purchasing it now? Note: I'm not familiar with the OL's.
Thanks,
Peter
Just my 2 cents. BW at this point is OL. Absent that, it kind of reminds me of searching for an L2 Jerome Commentary, years later.
No offense to Logos, but they’re a theo closed shop, so supplement here and there. My main interest in this case is language transitions that speak to assumed meaning.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
PL said:
I've never used BW. But considering how commonly used it is among seminarians and pastors, and the fact that it is closing down and now on sale for half price for 2 more weeks, is it worth purchasing it now? Note: I'm not familiar with the OL's.
Thanks,
Peter
Original language studies is the major strength of Bibleworks, so even though I love it, it is probably not worth the investment for someone who doesn't work with the OLs.
0 -
It’s sad. I’ve been a user since 1998, and have closed-beta tested their last several versions. Bibleworks still does some things llogos can’t, and does some of the same things better. Godspeed, Bibleworks.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
0 -
Ben said:
Bibleworks still does some things llogos can’t, and does some of the same things better. Godspeed, Bibleworks.
I haven't used Logos for original language work. Perhaps Logos also does some things better, so I'm just assuming roughly similar functionality, given whatever trade-offs. Has anyone calculated what it would cost for BibleWorks users to get the same thing in Logos? -- including all the original language texts that are morphologically searchable: OT, NT, pseudepigrapha, apocrypha, various TRs, byzantine text, Philo, Josephus, church fathers, and targums. The dozen German translations. Etc.
I'm still using BW 9 and would have to spend $200 to move to BW 10 to secure compatibility with future operating systems (for the foreseeable future).
Thanks!
Dave
0 -
While you’re waiting for a formal answer, dream on. Accordance might come close, but even then.
The problem is they packaged so much into $389 ($199 currently) that they could ‘sell cheap’.
In Logos, you can almost do OL for free (Starter) but then most want the bells (specific OL texts, LXX, Josephus) and then the whistles (pseud, targums, fathers, etc). Bibles! So then you start rationalizing package content.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
BibleWorks does indeed focus on original language study and resources, but they have a ton of other resources like full tagged Greek/English versions of Josephus and Philo, Wallace's Greek Grammar beyond the Basics, etc... They also have the CNTTS resource with notated images of the original texts (mss: 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 012, 032, 1141. Then look at all the English and non-English versions all included as part of the base package. This would all quickly add up to more than $200 in Logos. (Please note, I'm not defending BW over against Logos. BW is closing up, so no need to defend it. I'm a long time user of BW, but I also have Logos 7 Gold and a ton of additional resources I've purchased over the years.)
0 -
It looks like Logos will be releasing two packages for former BibleWorks customers who are looking to move to Logos:
No word on pricing yet.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
I would really like to see a special pricing on the CNTTS for BW owners. Seems to be the biggest missing piece from both the Logos and Acc. crossover packages.
0 -
Mark Barnes said:
It looks like Logos will be releasing two packages for former BibleWorks customers who are looking to move to Logos:
Sounds like I won't be eligible for these since the product pages say they are "exclusively" for BibleWorks owners, but I wish Logos would make more packages like these. They both seem like "meat and potatoes" packages without much fluff. Core resources that focus on the text. More of this (for everyone), please!!
0 -
Mark Barnes said:
It looks like Logos will be releasing two packages for former BibleWorks customers who are looking to move to Logos:
No word on pricing yet.
I looked at the list. Maybe I'll be forced to crossgrade!! Or FL puts in an ownership as of date for sneaky ladies like me. I have most everything, plus CNTTS. Of course, I spent a hair more than $199. You really have to be amazed at what the 2 developers did, plus their support. I'd say there must have been some divine participation.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
Matthew said:
Sounds like I won't be eligible for these since the product pages say they are "exclusively" for BibleWorks owners, but I wish Logos would make more packages like these. They both seem like "meat and potatoes" packages without much fluff. Core resources that focus on the text. More of this (for everyone), please!!
Totally agree - they do look like incredible bundles, and I'd love to see more of this.
0 -
All you have to do is buy Bibleworks before June 15th, register it and then purchase the packages. Then you will have the benefit of both Bibleworks 10 and the new Logos package!James McAdams said:Matthew said:Sounds like I won't be eligible for these since the product pages say they are "exclusively" for BibleWorks owners, but I wish Logos would make more packages like these. They both seem like "meat and potatoes" packages without much fluff. Core resources that focus on the text. More of this (for everyone), please!!
Totally agree - they do look like incredible bundles, and I'd love to see more of this.
0 -
Michael,
I think one of the reasons for the discounts is that the publishers will recognize that the user has already purchased a license to the resources and are offering a crossover price. If you do not own the resources in another software, you do not qualify for crossover pricing.
0 -
John,
That's why I suggest buying Bibleworks to be eligible for the cross grade. Purchasing Bibleworks gives you the licenses for the resources. That would make you eligible for the cross grade, wouldn't it?
0 -
Michael Sullivan said:
All you have to do is buy Bibleworks before June 15th, register it and then purchase the packages. Then you will have the benefit of both Bibleworks 10 and the new Logos package!
I wish I could, but I can’t afford to double up and I only get to use my laptop for very short periods of time a couple of hours a month max), so BibleWorks is kind of a write-off for me.
0 -
0
-
So I'm wondering, all packages that Logos offers work off of dynamic pricing, so that you pay a reduced amount for books you already have licensed in the past, so I'm sure that a non-BibleWorks user could just purchase one of these cross grade / upgrade packages and still get a reduced rate, correct? These packages might be a better collection of OL resources to purchase than to maybe going with a base package?
Based on that, if a BibleWorks owner has a license, then will this change the price to lower the cost even more, or how will that work? The above prices are pretty spendy in my opinion, unless something special happens to reduce the price if you have a BW license? Obviously FL is still working on this and nothing appears to be officially released yet, so I'm mostly just thinking out loud.
0 -
Michael Sullivan said:
John,
That's why I suggest buying Bibleworks to be eligible for the cross grade. Purchasing Bibleworks gives you the licenses for the resources. That would make you eligible for the cross grade, wouldn't it?
Makes sense.
0 -
Seems like I own most of it, but no option to buy for me.
DAL
0 -
Jan Krohn said:
Unless you fake the user agent.
Whoa! How'd you do that? And are these product pages only findable via Google? They certainly aren't available via Logos' search bar.
Jason B said:Based on that, if a BibleWorks owner has a license, then will this change the price to lower the cost even more, or how will that work? The above prices are pretty spendy in my opinion, unless something special happens to reduce the price if you have a BW license? Obviously FL is still working on this and nothing appears to be officially released yet, so I'm mostly just thinking out loud.
I too am concerned about the above prices, but I suspect these prices, which are already significantly reduced from a regular rate, might be final (give or take for dynamic pricing). Over at Accordance, the BW8/9 package is $149 and BW10 is $189, and I suspect Logos would price, more or less, a strictly equivalent crossover package similar to Accordance's BW10 crossover. Since the Logos crossover package includes additional resources than what BW users already have, this may account for the hike in the price tag. I would prefer to see Logos offer an even lower tier that only includes the equivalent of what we have in BW, something like what Accordance is offering.
BTW, Accordance is manually processing orders for its BW crossover packages in order to verify BW users. A separate order form (pdf) must be submitted, which includes the statement: "By entering into this agreement I acknowledge that Accordance Bible Software in conjunction with the copyright holders of the products listed above has given me a discounted price as an upgrade to a prior purchase from another company. Because of the copyrighted nature of this material, this discount/upgrade comes with certain restrictions."
I wonder if Logos will do the same or automate the process.
0 -
Anthony Lipscomb said:
BTW, Accordance is manually processing orders for its BW crossover packages in order to verify BW users.
Oh, great. I got BW, but to get it in Accordance (which I also have), I'd have to double-down. And then to get it in Logos, I'd have to double-double down (ignoring it'd be almost free of course). Actually, I have a special ear out for the mailman who cometh (soon I hope).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
Anthony Lipscomb said:Jan Krohn said:
Unless you fake the user agent.
Whoa! How'd you do that? And are these product pages only findable via Google? They certainly aren't available via Logos' search bar.
I used the links given here in the forum.
To fake the user agent and see prices, the exact steps depend on your browser.
On EDGE, press F12, go to the tab "Emulation", and from the available user agents choose "Windows 10 Mobile".
0 -
I wish Logos could work out a deal with publishers to offer Crossover Discounts. That way, if I own a resource in WS or Accordance I could get it at a very significant discount just to duplicate the resource in Logos.
Accordance offers Crossover Discounts on a lot of commentaries, OL dictionaries and other books; even NICOT/NT for less than $500 if you own the set in another Software!
This is a great offer, it should be considered not just when a company closes, but when we have other resources that we would like to crossover/upgrade to Logos.
DAL
0 -
Jan Krohn said:
I used the links given here in the forum.
To fake the user agent and see prices, the exact steps depend on your browser.
On EDGE, press F12, go to the tab "Emulation", and from the available user agents choose "Windows 10 Mobile".
Thanks for the tip. When I faked the user agent, the prices were listed at the regular rate (minus the 1% dynamic adjustment for the few resources I already own). Jan, you must own a bit already that is offered in the crossover packages. This makes me think that the regular prices are just the baseline for a significantly discounted price for BW users.
0 -
Why isn't there a price listed for either the BW Upgrade or Crossgrade?
Is this only if you have BW10, or are they including earlier versions? I have BW8.
0
said:
