Linux version of Logos Bible Software
Comments
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Mr. Smiling,
There is need for clarity... I like the part of your ideas that are on-topic...
Much of what you said related to the OS choice in the first place, not whether to "ALLOW" the development of an app for people who have already made the choice for Linux.
Generally, the "Linux" question is a "let" question. "Logos for Linux" means: "Non-Faithlife people build it ON THEIR OWN INITIATIVE or it doesn't happen."
(That is Linux culture. I didn't know that until I started using Linux in 2013.)
This thread was not about whether WE should use Linux in the first place, but whether Faithlife wants to LET US to use Logos on our Linux systems.
The purpose of discussing stats and market share, here, is to observe changes and trends, informing solvency and marketability, not about which OS is "better" for us customers to choose in the first place. Those stats say Linux is growing, which means it's not sinking and has a future. So, "has a future" isn't a bad decision.
I see stats as saying this:
Stats --> Linux growing --> future --> Logos can do Linux and have a growing future
...That is why I discuss them.
...About previous attempt(s) of Logos for Linux...
Perhaps the community development for the Logos 4 engine port to Linux failed because Logos/Faithlife/Libronix/whoeverownsitthisweek tried to do too much. JUST MAKE A GITHUB WITH THE SDK AND FORGET ABOUT IT.
...I haven't seen you respond to "LETTING" or "ALLOWING" the community. You don't have to do everything yourself. That's kind of the idea. If the community never does anything, that's our problem.
...Are the Logos 4 engine binaries published to a GitHub profile? You haven't provided any GitHub URLs. if not, that is probably another reason why it got little community support. Linux users like to develop on GitHub for many reasons you can find with Google, which I won't waste space sharing here. Even Linus Torvalds uses GitHub for developing. No github.com/?????/logos = no Logos on Linux.
And, I am still interested in those stats on the percentage of users using Logos. Of 95%-ish desktop users using Windows in these OS stats, how many of those people use Logos at all? What all OSs do they use? How many Logos customers are developers? How many Logos customers have Debian installed alongside Windows?
And, I didn't think we were talking about video game development. Though, now that you mention those stats, it does seem that the Logos road map aims at high graphics rather than content connecting compatibility. So, maybe game dev stats are relevant. Logos wants something that uses GPU. Linxu users want something else...
Ultimately, "Logos for Linux" means 1. that we can login and access our libraries ALL THROUGH the command line if we want and 2. a GitHub repo of an open source version of the engine that protects proprietary content. We don't want "pretty", we want "command line for Linux". (...not command line or open source on Mac, not on Windows, this thread is about Linux.)
About website support...
You actually brought up Logos integrating with web. I just mentioned that we Linux people are in the know and support a lot you rely on. We are smart people with the power to refer and recommend software. We WANT to recommend Logos more. Using another website engine (from a company that still hasn't ported to Linux) isn't our question. Get a Logos GitHub for Linux that WE can get working, let the community do it, then we might be interested in your Faithlife web products.
About Faithlife web service, as I understand from the stats, most web servers run Linux. If Faithlife wants in on the web-dev world, a Logos for Linux client is all they would need and they would have their foot in the door. That's another reason to get on Linux: web dominance.
As for why a Linux developer might like Logos on his LAMP websites...
...The main functionality would be how/why we like Linux: Backend connectivity.
...Not fancy graphics. Not pretty Flash that doesn't always work.
Like with other software, we install the Logos client on the server, then the backend can talk to our own web interface via the LINUX command line (or XML or a LAMP database if it is on another OS)... Then we can do "stuff"... whatever we imagine for the week.
As for EULA, you know that Logos has some library contents that are public domain. The unspoken agreement in the Linux world is that we would use the public domain part publicly. (I certainly hope that Logos would not prevent us from sharing public domain content in their libraries on their free engine. if they do then I recommend changing that in the next EULA update, which closes that question.)
...As for EULA-applicable proprietary content on websites (again, of course), we awesome Linux developers who make so many websites for so many people would LOVE to have a Logos client working on Linux, which would automatically mean that the client running on the server could use the command interface to talk to a web user's Logos client to share proprietary content through our own web inventions. Then, we can get more of our customers using Logos on ANY OS.
Eg: I do a Bible study, post it on my WordPress blog that has a plugin talking to the Logos for Linux client running on the same LAMP web server, a web visitor can see SOME allowed content (as EULA might allow for printing, etc.) Then, the visitor can see a little, OR, he can sync and share notes with his local Logos client. I tell my website customers that I can do this, they get more of their people using Logos.
...MAYBE, probably not though, that creates an unspoken problem. JUST MAYBE Logos dev doesn't want my Bible study notes going through anything but THEIR server. Maybe Faithlife wants ALL MY BIBLE STUDY NOTES on their cloud server. I don't think Faithlife would want such privacy invasion, but that is the underlying Linux question.
Faithlife can have awesome cloud services. But, the reason people use Linux in the first place, partially, is about content control. What if I don't want my Bible study notes in your cloud? What if Faithlife gets purchased by CNN or a Chinese company looking to spy on Christians... or hires a mole... or... Many books have already been written on basic security questions. So, I won't rehash those discussions here. Reagan called it "trust but verify".
I like Faithlife's cloud idea, though it is definitely a premium service, arguably luxury. But, I don't need it for everything all the time always. Some things I just want on my local client. And, I'm glad to buy more and more and more proprietary books for Logos... IF I CAN USE IT WHERE I WORK, which I and many more than I have already decided is Linux... which is a decision that this thread is not about.
Stepping back to look at where your answers have gone, I am starting to wonder if the Logos on Linux question is about fundamental worldviews. Linux users like to use open, non-centralized sharing. Sure, we have proprietary stuff in secure areas where we all make money. And, NO ONE CONTROLS ALL OF ANYTHING, which allows cooperation and progress. It's not even about privacy so much as it is about giving each other permission to share the work load and therefore share the credit and the control.
...It seems that Logos/Faithlife/Libronix/whateverwecallitthisweek likes to do a lot of the planning themselves. That isn't an OS compatibility discussion, but a worldview compatibility discussion. I certainly hope Logos can get SOME of their awesome proprietary and open libraries into the growing Linux world.
As for the product dev roadmap question, "Is Logos for Linux part of strategy?" Libronix promised long ago that "the engine would always be free". That really means that it needs to be "allowed" on Linux—not "guaranteed", just "allowed" if other people want to do the port. That means, really, that Faithlife should just upload most/all of the Logos 4 binaries to a GitHub, then forget about it and go on to other projects.
The Linux question is not about code or more things on the Logos developer to-do list. It's about "ALLOWING". Please mention this in your next reply, Mr. Smiling.
Logos for Linux is what this thread is about. That question is more about allowing SOME of the Logos products (the free stuff) to live on GitHub as Open Source. "Openness" is what the REAL "Linux" question comes down to, for anyone who "really understands" Linux.
...Again, because you seem to have missed this, Linux is about "allowing" other people to do the leg work where suggestions and problems they find are concerned. It's not about flashy-web-shinyness and cool, high-GPU load experiences. We want the binaries and permission to fork them.
So... Maybe this thread really should be about letting basic back-end stuff be open to Linux developers on GitHub, dump the Logos 4 engine and a proprietary library SDK on to GitHub for us to fork and pull, no extra work for Faithlife/Libronix/whatever....
...Then, the Windows and OSX and web-cloud distros are more about fancy user experience.
See... All those people going to your fancy cloud website and buying Logos 7 beautifulness... Many of them attend a small local church with a website on a LAMP server developed by a Linux geek like us. He won't change his mind about Linux and he's not asking, but he would love to get Logos there too. He just needs Logos 4 on GitHub with an Apache or GNU license.
I am interested in your knowledge and ideas, Mr. Smiling. But, please keep "WHETHER to use Linux on desktop or web" related info on a different thread. This is a thread about whether LOGOS (not we Logos customers and/or web developers) should become part of Linux in the open source/freemium/proprietary/growing platform with the people who already made that choice.
Now, I, personally, would like a clear and official answer from Faithlife staff, approved by the correct responsible management: Would Logos/Libronix/Faithlife allow 1. an SDK for remote command-line login to proprietary content on Logos servers and 2. for the free Logos 4 engine itself to become completely open source and "ALLOWED" for other developers to make it work on Linux if those third party developers do all the legwork?
Mr. Smiling: That is not you, at least I hope Faithlife staff won't call themselves "Keep Smiling" on the forum and work weekends. Though, I would also like to know if you think yes/no Faithlife should offer 1 and/or 2 (above) to we who use an OS that you don't seem to prefer.
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...And, Mr. Smiling,
I have been really thinking about all you have to say. After my morning Bible study, I am thinking...
Maybe YOU are the answer!
You know SO MUCH about all this.
Can you answer my questions and point me in a direction? Can you tell me how to use a command line (even windows) to log on to the Logos server and retrieve my library through the command line?
If I can learn some basic command line stuff, I might be able to get at least a command-line version of Logos working and that should make the "Go Linux" people happy since, frankly, that's what we really want in the first place.
Maybe YOU are the person to help me to help all the rest of us!
Keep smiling!
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Jesse Steele said:
Get a Logos GitHub for Linux that WE can get working, let the community do it, then we might be interested in your Faithlife web products.
Faithlife has 34 GitHub repositories => https://github.com/Faithlife that includes RefTagger, which is already being used by many web sites for pop-up of Bible verse text. Forum RefTagger has threads dating back to Oct 2009 (near the time of conversion from newsgroup to forum discussions).
Jesse Steele said:I see stats as saying this:
Stats --> Linux growing --> future --> Logos can do Linux and have a growing future
Faithlife corporation concurs with online future being profitable so they began actively developing Logos Web App in 2015 that can be used on open source distributions along with Windows, OS X (mac OS), iOS, and Android, which can include tablet devices and ChromeBooks.
Logos UserVoice suggestion now has 382 votes (# 9) => https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/3635847-make-logos-4-and-5-avalible-to-individuals-on-ubun
Jesse Steele said:...As for EULA-applicable proprietary content on websites (again, of course), we awesome Linux developers who make so many websites for so many people would LOVE to have a Logos client working on Linux, which would automatically mean that the client running on the server could use the command interface to talk to a web user's Logos client to share proprietary content through our own web inventions. Then, we can get more of our customers using Logos on ANY OS.
Recommend reading => Fire Someone Today by Bob Prichett, Faithlife CEO
Sharing proprietary content from one Logos library to many web site users has potential contract ramifications with various publishers, which could include royalty payments. Hence, anticipate Faithlife corporation having desires for their own web sites to be used for EULA compliance.
Faithlife has Software Developer job available for an awesome developer => https://faithlife.com/jobs/SoftwareDeveloper
Jesse Steele said:...MAYBE, probably not though, that creates an unspoken problem. JUST MAYBE Logos dev doesn't want my Bible study notes going through anything but THEIR server. Maybe Faithlife wants ALL MY BIBLE STUDY NOTES on their cloud server. I don't think Faithlife would want such privacy invasion, but that is the underlying Linux question.
Faithlife already enables your Notes to be freely shared with other Faithlife users => https://documents.logos.com plus sync between your devices running an app (mobile) or application (desktop/laptop). Also can use the Faithlife documents web site to view your Notes.
Thankful that Visual Filters can be shared => Examples of visual filters (highlighted text is a challenge for command line, perhaps JSON)
Jesse Steele said:And, I am still interested in those stats on the percentage of users using Logos. Of 95%-ish desktop users using Windows in these OS stats, how many of those people use Logos at all? What all OSs do they use? How many Logos customers are developers? How many Logos customers have Debian installed alongside Windows?
Support page => https://www.logos.com/support shows "five platform or devices" with four groups of operating systems:
- Windows
- OS X (mac OS)
- iOS
- Android
The fifth device, Kindle Fire, uses a custom Android variant.
Apologies since this volunteer with many posts (MVP) does not know the operating share usage of Faithlife users.
Jesse Steele said:Mr. Smiling: That is not you, at least I hope Faithlife staff won't call themselves "Keep Smiling" on the forum and work weekends. Though, I would also like to know if you think yes/no Faithlife should offer 1 and/or 2 (above) to we who use an OS that you don't seem to prefer.
Depends on task to be done for my operating system preference; like to use what works well plus readily switch OS to get task done.
Personal user opinions:
- No for remote command line login SDK; recommend using one of the Faithlife web servers to access your library content
- No for open sourcing of Faithlife engine for custom user interface creation
Another suggestion thread => Linux - Ubuntu may be interesting to read.
Jesse Steele said:Maybe YOU are the answer!
Am praying and seeking God's calling; not yet know where God wants me working to join Him for His glory.
Keep Smiling
is my reminder of Philippians 4:4 where Paul was Rejoicing in the Lord always (while in very unpleasant circumstances).Thankful for many friendly forum discussions; have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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If Logos doesn't make this happen, I am willing to help with development of a new Bible study program for Linux.
I can't code, but I can help with graphics somewhat, or wherever I can fit in.
The programs available right now for Linux are noble efforts...but very clunky and ugly. There really needs to be more options.
It's time to set churches and ministries free from abusive, proprietary software. I have no problems paying for good software and tech service, but many churches are getting slapped with unjust DRM lawsuits. The less churches have to rely on Mac, Microsoft, and Adobe, etc. the better. Logos could be the good guy here and help out the Open Source community. It would be good for churches in the long run (in my opinion), and Logos could still make money.
This is just the right thing to do, and Linux really ought to be the future for churches and ministries.
I'll come back and rant in another couple years.
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Joe, I'm jessesteele.com. Hit me up ASAP.
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Mr. Phil 4:4, :-)
Thank you for answering my questions 1 and 2.
I feel we have a lot clarified now. Though, I still don't see what % of Americans are running Logos.
I see from the vote you linked to that Faithlife's president is supposedly a former Microsoft guy, which explains a lot... Including that previous software was probably built on MS stuff, making him a fit to begin with.
PLEASE ANSWER ME THIS: I do NOT want any EULA violations. I don't imply it. If you think that, we misunderstand.
...I was suggesting "whatever" would stay withing EULA.
Please respond that you got that part. I care that you know. :-)
Of awesome programmers, I don't think Linux is the Faithlife president former Microsoft guy's pick.
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Jesse Steele said:
I feel we have a lot clarified now. Though, I still don't see what % of Americans are running Logos.
Friendly discussion helped me appreciate Faithlife's direction. Do recommend Logos Now membership that includes Logos Web App access, which is already noticeably better for Logos library interaction in an open source browser than Biblia.
+1 Curious about Faithlife application and app usage. Thankful for free software, albeit wallet cries [:'(] for many resource purchases. More resources does enable search to find useful articles on a variety of topics.
Jesse Steele said:...I was suggesting "whatever" would stay withing EULA.
Without an account, Faithlife offers 51 Bibles for free reading at https://biblia.com that also has an api.biblia.com web site.
For resources licensed to one Logos library to be used by one human being, an intermediate web site would need to either embed a Faithlife web site (e.g. frame) or pass along user credentials (with potential for security disaster). Simplier option is linking to appropriate Faithlife web site(s).
Public domain observation: text is free, but incredible tagging added by Faithlife for insightful Bible study is not.
Jesse Steele said:Of awesome programmers, I don't think Linux is the Faithlife president former Microsoft guy's pick
Prior to Microsoft acquiring Xamarin (with developers that maintain Mono), Faithlife was using Ceph from Red Hat in their Data Center => Data Center Storage Failure, 11/21 and => Data Center Storage Failure, 11/21 (Continued) includes more Linux insights: e.g. XFS kernel bug triggered by load. plus Inktank support discount in 2014
Jim Straatman said:I just want to take a moment and express how blessed I am to be working with such a talented team. Inktank has many enterprise customers, and according to them, we (and by we I mean Richard) are one of the most sophisticated outfits they’ve encountered. So much so, they are discounting our support contract by 15%, representing the value we’ll provide back into their product. Moreover, the Faithlife Operations team is one of the first in the world to deploy Joyent SmartDataCenter 7 under new open source licensing terms, all under duress and in a matter of hours.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Steven Yu said:
Once again, I am pushing foward for a Linux version of Logos, a lot of user are using Linux, and we have been struggling to break away from Windows, but Logos has always been the single software that require us to either dual boot or run a virtual machine with Linux OS.
Anyone share the same view?
I never ceased to be blown away by the number of views the Linux topic generates, even though I would not think there are that many Linux users, LOL. I mean, 279,000 ??? WOW! Crazy!
Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College0 -
Myke Harbuck said:
even though I would not think there are that many Linux users, LOL. I mean, 279,000 ??? WOW! Crazy!
There must be more users than one has been told. The Linux system is excellent, fast, and getting much more popular. It can be a clear replacement for Windows. It is much better. There are only two reasons why I have not completely switched. One is the concern I have for protecting my children (parental filters) and the other is my investment in Logos Bible Software.
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Myke Harbuck said:
even though I would not think there are that many Linux users, LOL. I mean, 279,000 ??? WOW! Crazy!
Concur crazy plus this thread in the Suggestions forum has the most replies, which is more than the next two suggestion threads combined:
Thankful for Faithlife development of Android mobile apps.
Mark said:There must be more users than one has been told. The Linux system is excellent, fast, and getting much more popular. It can be a clear replacement for Windows. It is much better. There are only two reasons why I have not completely switched. One is the concern I have for protecting my children (parental filters) and the other is my investment in Logos Bible Software.
Internet search for linux parental control finds many results, including Ubuntu community => https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ParentalControls
Apple makes significant contributions to many open source projects => https://www.apple.com/opensource/ OS X (mac OS) System preferences has Parental Controls plus Logos Bible Software.
Thankful for Distrowatch => http://distrowatch.com/ that includes current Top Ten distributions => http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major while tracking hundreds. Top Ten list of major distributions has had several changes since this thread began in 2009.
Anticipate open source distributions and Android fragmentation => http://opensignal.com/reports/2015/08/android-fragmentation/ having similar development and support issues for a Logos Bible Software application. Albeit Android has one open source SDK's per version. Yet a number of open source projects have graphical applications running on a variety of open source distributions.
Visual depiction of Android fragmentation in 2014 shows huge variety of hardware and OS variant combinations being used:
image linked from Gizmodo article => http://gizmodo.com/what-android-fragmentation-looks-like-its-growing-1624662310
Firefox installation on Linux => https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/install-firefox-linux?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=Installing+Firefox+on+Linux includes:
Firefox said:Many Linux distributions include Firefox by default, and most have a package management system that lets you easily install Firefox.
Building and distributing package varieties would be similar to Android distribution. Caveat: open source distributions do not have the equivalent of Google Play and Amazon Store so would have to publish to more repositories OR choose a subset of open source distributions for development and support (e.g. Oracle database certification on a smallish number of enterprise server distributions).
James said:Has anyone tried using Logos in ReactOS? I know React is not quite stable yet but it might be an option going forward.
Downloading React has a "Did you know?"
ReactOS said:If just 1 in 10 people downloading ReactOS would donate less than the cost of a beer each month, we'd be able to hire 10 full time developers.
ReactOS has never had the funds to hire a full time dev, but imagine how much quicker we could reach beta if we did. Please, be that 1 in 10 and help us boost development.
In contrast to ReactOS, wikipedia article about Ubuntu => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28operating_system%29 mentions initial funding of $ 10 million.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Realizing that this thread is in its 8th year now, I have little hope in seeing anything from Logos on this. While I was a paying customer before, I've given up on ever seeing something for the Linux users.
For those of you that are willing to help write a Logos for Linux as has been suggested here, I would point you over to http://xiphos.org/ and suggest you put your efforts in there. And put all the lobbying that is going on here into getting the publishers to release works for The Sword Project. That seems the main hurdle right now that is keeping people locked into other platforms. Publishers need to understand that Linux is for serious users that are willing to pay for their works and not just for those that want everything for free. That, along with the understanding that there are protections that can be put on their works. The lobbying needs to be refocused to pressure the publishers to allow their works to be released in this manner.
My 2¢
sjm
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Working on Wine to get Logos Bible Software to run in Wine in Linux would probably be the shortest path. If someone got LBS to work on Wine and set it up in PlayOnLinux, it would automatically do the setup. But, to get it to work would probably take some Wine development.
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Perry Webb said:
Working on Wine to get Logos Bible Software to run in Wine in Linux would probably be the shortest path.
Wine currently is not viable because the open source community does not have an alternative for Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF) so Logos 4, 5, 6, 7 would not be usable due to lack of WPF graphical layer.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Anyone use Virtualbox lately? It runs things at normal or faster than normal speeds for me. Of course, I use the official Nvidia drivers and such.
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DansGuardian is a great idea, but it's a pain in the butt to get going because of a really old package or sources are needed. I can't remember, but for some of us, when it comes down to having things our way or being faithful to God and my wife, I would rather stay faithful.
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Here's my son's response. He is an avid Linux user who is working on a Ph.D. in computer engineering.
Here is a list of what is provided by that library some of which would need to be implemented in wine for Logos to work: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms753307(v=vs.110).aspx
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Perry Webb said:
Here's my son's response. He is an avid Linux user who is working on a Ph.D. in computer engineering.
Here is a list of what is provided by that library some of which would need to be implemented in wine for Logos to work: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms753307(v=vs.110).aspx
Mono is an open source port of .NET whose parent company, Xamarin, has been acquired by Microsoft.
Mono's WPF information => http://www.mono-project.com/docs/gui/wpf/
points out that porting WPF from Windows to open source is impractical.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Given the topic of this thread (whether to have Logos for Linux, not whether to have users using Linux)... I deduct this as your recommendation of Logos 3 for Wine.
And, frankly, I agree with you and Perry Web: Given all the evidence seen here, getting Logos 3 (or Libronix or whateveritscalled) in Wine's Play on Linux library would probably be the most efficient way to keep Logos solvent.
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Logos UserVoice suggestion with 388 votes => https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/3635847-make-logos-4-and-5-avalible-to-individuals-on-ubun was declined by Faithlife on 6 Sep
Faithlife Development said:
We will not be developing a desktop/offline application for Linux.
https://app.logos.com continues to improve and will be our solution for any platform that supports a web browser.
Hence, offline use on an open source distribution currently needs a Virtual Machine running a legal copy of Windows (for virtual use) or OS X (running on Apple hardware) to run desktop application. When Apple refreshes Mac hardware, anticipating prices for older refurbished models to drop a bit.
Jesse Steele said:Given all the evidence seen here, getting Logos 3 (or Libronix or whateveritscalled) in Wine's Play on Linux library ...
Wine HQ has Libronix 3 rating => https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=8802 that was last updated in Aug 2013 (garbage).
Codeweavers forum => https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/forum/logos-bible-software-x?msg=36063 has similar Libronix 3 discussion in 2009
Libronix 3 resource compatibility => https://www.logos.com/support/mac/L3/resource_compatibility notes any resource created after 31 Mar 2012 cannot be used in Libronix 3 due to resource file format change.
One idea is improving Darling HQ => https://www.darlinghq.org/source-code/ to enable graphical OS X (mac OS) 64 bit application to run on other open source distributions with a GPL kernel. Technically may be easier to fork Darling for a BSD kernel that has similar system call values as Darwin in OS X (mac OS), which would allow community focus on creating a Cocoa clone using Qt, which could be integrated into Darling after BSD System Call reverse engineering is done. Caveat:open source community does not have many OS X (mac OS) applications that are not already available so motivation is lacking to cleanly clone Apple's graphical user interface.
Darling HQ mentions Rudix: unix packages for OS X (mac OS) => http://rudix.org/
Found a 2007 discussion about cloning Apple's Cocoa and Carbon => https://apple.slashdot.org/story/07/07/30/0230204/Run-Mac-OS-X-Apps-On-Linux and also found Mac-on-Linux with latest news in 2007 => http://mac-on-linux.sourceforge.net/news.php
For OS X (mac OS), Platypus looks useful for Python and PERL scripts => https://github.com/sveinbjornt/Platypus
Apple's EULA for Mac OS X is similar to Faithlife => https://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/MacOSX.htm
Mac OS X EULA said:This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time.
By the way, nasty rootkit targets Linux on ARM and x86 => http://www.infoworld.com/article/3116908/malware/stealthy-tricky-to-remove-rootkit-targets-linux-systems-on-arm-and-x86.html
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Keep Smiling,
Is there any reason why you mention a new Linux exploit and not new exploits for Mac and Windows? The Trend Micro release makes it clear that for this exploit to work an attacker already needs local access to the machine (i.e. the exploit cannot be triggered remotely, but only if the attacker has already broken into the machine and obtained user access). It doesn't matter what OS you run - if an attacker has already compromised your machine and gained local access, you're pretty much sunk.
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aaylnx said:
Is there any reason why you mention a new Linux exploit and not new exploits for Mac and Windows?
Mentioned new nasty Linux exploit in a thread about Logos on Linux, which has many readers (thread views). New nasty exploits for Mac and Windows were not published concurrently.
Noticed security article while researching open source options; could have included Apple emergency update on 2 Sep 2016 => http://www.infoworld.com/article/3116064/macs/apple-quashes-3-zero-days-with-emergency-mac-update.html about 3 zero day exploits being quashed so recommend updating OS X (mac OS).
Likewise could have mentioned 30 Aug 2016 article about ransomware attack on Linux web servers => http://www.infoworld.com/article/3113816/security/new-ransomware-threat-deletes-files-from-linux-web-servers.html
Flip side is Windows 10 being harder to hack (15 Aug 2016) => http://www.infoworld.com/article/3107132/security/respect-windows-10-security-impresses-hackers.html Albeit Microsoft includes Key Logger in Windows 10 along with altering default dialog behavior for Windows 10 "Free" Update in July 2016 (clicking 'X' to close dialog box was treated as OK to upgrade).
Trend Micro blog => http://blog.trendmicro.com/trendlabs-security-intelligence/pokemon-themed-umbreon-linux-rootkit-hits-x86-arm-systems/ linked from InfoWorld Security article verified three hardware variants: x86, x86-64, and ARM can be exploited. Umbreon user mode (ring 3) execution can hide itself from strace detection on Linux (nasty and sophisticated). Irony is Umbreon author(s) could be helpful for improving Darling.HQ.
InfoWorld article also links to 1 Sep 2016 article => https://blog.sucuri.net/2016/09/iot-home-router-botnet-leveraged-in-large-ddos-attack.html about a distributed attack using Internet connected cameras and network routers running Linux.
As operating systems gain popularity, so do nasty exploits. Apple and Microsoft include anti-malware in their operating systems along with frequent updates. Open source distributions also have security updates for maintained versions. Keeping system(s) up to date is prudent.
aaylnx said:The Trend Micro release makes it clear that for this exploit to work an attacker already needs local access to the machine (i.e. the exploit cannot be triggered remotely, but only if the attacker has already broken into the machine and obtained user access).
Risk is using a client web browser on Linux since the Umbreon root kit could be incorporated into a malicious web site or ad download for local execution and exploit (same delivery technique is a risk on Mac and Windows too).. Another risk is an email client that allows something to be executed (similar to Outlook preview on Windows that has been exploited).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Risk is using a client web browser on Linux since the Umbreon root kit could be incorporated into a malicious web site or ad download for local execution and exploit (same delivery technique is a risk on Mac and Windows too).. Another risk is an email client that allows something to be executed (similar to Outlook preview on Windows that has been exploited).
True, but this is also a risk for every OS that is not kept up to date and where basic security practices are not followed. Nothing unique about Linux here.
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Thread => Running Logos Android on a Chromebook
Chromium => http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os
Running Chromium on KVM => https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/how-tos-and-troubleshooting/running-chromeos-image-under-virtual-machines
Caveat: Android mobile app has less capabilities than desktop application.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I'm not trying to be nit picky here, but why would running Chromium OS under KVM be an advantage to anyone? Chromium is not Android. Chromium is the open source development version of Google's Chrome OS. By itself, Chromium OS can only access Logos through a browser which can be done natively on any OS. If one wants an Android desktop, then their best bet is Remix OS. However, I wouldn't go that way either, because Google has announced that soon people will be able to run Android apps natively on their Chromebooks. This means that soon Logos users will be able to run the Android client for Logos natively under ChromeOS.
I have installed Crouton on my Chromebook, which allows me to run Linux apps w/in ChromeOS. Interestingly, I have run Bibleworks directly on a Chromebook, because Bibleworks works flawlessly under WINE. When I want to access Logos on my Chromebook, I open up Crouton, run Remmina (a multi-protocol remote desktop client for Linux) and connect to my main Windows box using Windows Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP). It actually works quite well. Once Android apps start running on Chrome OS natively, you won't need Crouton, because there are Remote Desktop clients available for Android.
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I have the Android app running on ChromeOS - it works pretty well. The layer in the middle consumes a fair bit of resource, but it works. The app itself has several limitations, but at least I can access my notes.
The web app has a lot of promise, and would put to bet the Linux question for me when it's full function. However, it's an ongoing expense. Since it's cross-platform, it solves a lot of problems and is a smarter investment for Faithlife. It already has a few features that the Android app does not (but it's own set of limitations).
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FYI, recent WINEs (at least on mac) seem to have gotten much better (at least for the apps I run on it). It might be worth giving Logo on WINE another try. I currently run on a mac, but it is a very old one, and when it goes, I will be switching to Linux, if I can. I really don't want to support either Microsoft or Apple for their anti-Christian positions.
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Michael Lindner said:
FYI, recent WINEs (at least on mac) seem to have gotten much better (at least for the apps I run on it). It might be worth giving Logo on WINE another try.
WINE and commercial CrossOver (by Code Weavers) still are not viable for Logos 4 and newer. Open source community does not have Windows graphical alternative for Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF). Hence, WINE lacks software support to show Logos user interface. Mono's WPF information in 2017 => http://www.mono-project.com/docs/gui/wpf/
Thankful for Faithlife developing web sites https://app.logos.com and https://app.verbum.com that can be used on a variety of open source distributions. Browser needs WebGL. Now membership OR Cloud subscription is needed to use Web App(s).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Logos Linux Please!
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Solution (sort of)... This assumes you have some I.T. knowledge, but you're running Linux, so you're probably good to go.
I tried to find a home-based solution to this, and basically came up with the same dead-ends...However, I found an option through cloud hosting, which seems to be even better, allowing more flexibility.
First of all, let me preface this by saying that Logos has their own related solution in development through their new web-based application, at app.logos.com... I would rather pay for Logos Cloud to do this, versus paying a secular cloud host... but the costs for the cloud host appears to be quite minimal, after paying Logos for the LBS library licensing.
I have now completely installed the Logos Bible Software application, "downloaded" the library material I am paying for, and have begun to learn to use Logos 7...and as long as I have a stable connection at whatever location I am using, I can read til my eyes go blank (or the boss calls) using my Linux box, or another Mac or Windows PC. All of that took me less than an hour, thanks to Amazon, Microsoft, and of course Logos.
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Phil,
Could you explain further the solution you're using? I'm also a Linux user and what I've ended up doing is running Logos in a Windows virtual machine under Linux (KVM). Is that the same thing you're doing? Are you running a virtual machine version of Windows an a cloud host and then remotely accessing it?
Thanks,
Adam
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I'd like to hear more too, but it sounds to me like he's running Logos on a Windows instance in the Amazon cloud. You can get a free account and use a T2 sized instance for free for a year's trial. After that costs are usage based, and pretty minimal. The down side is, of course, having to have cloud access to use it.
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Michael, I suspect you are right. If that's the case, then my current solution would probably be easier for me which is simply to run the Windows vm locally with KVM and then access it remotely (if needed) via RDP tunneled through ssh. That seems to work quite well for me. I would love for there to be a native version of Logos one day, but for now this is not too bad.
I have to use the same setup to run Dragon Naturally Speaking. Like in the case of Logos there are simply no comparable Linux equivalents for speech to text. The closest I've found is the dictation available in Google Docs, but it's just not as good as Dragon. Looks like some people have had a limited level of success getting Dragon to run under WINE so I may need to try that out further.
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I suspect there will never be a Linux version - I think the way the FaithLife people are moving is, like everyone else, towards cloud-based SaaS (Scripture as a Service :-). As a scout leader I have to run "Troopmaster" under WINE (on a mac) and I can tell you the last few versions of it have gotten waaaay better at supporting stuff. Good luck with Dragon - that is a very good product and I wish they too had Linux support.
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Funny. Very.
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Michael, I'm certain that you are completely correct that there will never be a Linux version. It would be nice if we were able to run Logos under wine, but having looked into that quite a bit myself, I'm not holding my breath. The cloud option is really the only truly cross-platform option for Logos in the future. Unfortunately, app.logos.com has a very long way to go to have feature parity with the desktop version. For now I'll simply keep running Logos in a VM. This may seem silly, but given the portability of VM's, and the speed with which they're running on modern hardware, really makes things quite easy. I can even run Logos on a chrome book in this fashion (using Remote Desktop) and it works quite well.
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Bradley Grainger said:
We will not be developing a desktop/offline application for Linux.
https://app.logos.com continues to improve and will be our solution for any platform that supports a web browser.0 -
I'm glad to hear of Logos' continued focus on app.logos.com. I'm still not able to use it as my daily driver because of lack of feature parity with the desktop app, but I'm hoping for this one day. For now it's Logos in a VM still for me :-)
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I have successfully gotten Logos 7 installed in Ubuntu 18.04. However, whenever a resource is added (either manually or through the Logos Update Manager) it will crash with some "Memory Access Violations". I assume the technology used for decrypting the copyrighted materials is not yet functional in WINE. Please see my writeup and if you have any ability to contribute a fix it would be appreciated by Linux Logos 7 users around the world! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gms_Bc2Q_OOH3G5lmP6twXnqiSWxrFFT7lCN3nRyymw/edit
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I salute you! This is a giant leap forward...
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Sorry for taking a while to get back to this, but in the meantime I have tried all sorts of things that haven't worked for accessing Resources through wine. Again, if I have *no* resources, then Logos7 seems to run acceptably well following this guide: Logos 7 in Ubuntu 18.04 using Wine
But, if I *manually* place a *.logos4 resources in the Resources folder, this type of error will show up:
008c:err:eventlog:ReportEventW L"Application: Logos.exe\nFramework Version: v4.0.30319\nDescription: The application requested process termination through System.Environment.FailFast(string message).\nMessage: Error opening resource at 'C:\\users\\<user>\\Logos7\\Logos\\Data\\nvkglrmx.bgj\\ResourceManager\\Resources\\95THESES.log"...
By placing a *.lbsrvi file in the Resources folder I get this sort of error:
Application: Logos.exe\nFramework Version: v4.0.30319\nDescription: The process was terminated due to an unhandled exception.\nException Info: System.AccessViolationException\n at Libronix.DigitalLibrary.Resources.Logos.NativeMethods.EncryptedVolume_Open(Libronix.DigitalLibrary.Resources.Logos.Safe"...
It seems quite apparent that whatever Logos uses to open the encrypted resources is not working in wine.
Does *anyone* have more understanding of how Logos 7 resources are encrypted? Let me be absolutely clear that I am *not* interested in cracking the encryption. Instead I am only trying to install in wine the necessary tool needed to decrypt that is working in Windows but may need manually installed or tweaked in wine.
Any help greatly appreciated!
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I wonder if this tool can help? https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/listdlls
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Also a huge number of improvements were made to Wine's encryption features over the last several dev releases. I suggest trying 3.18... I'd like to give it a go myself but I don't have a suitable computer at the moment... need to get a new SSD;)
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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@John I have tried with Wine 3.19, unfortunately with the same results. I have been scouring Steam Proton Issue Reports in hopes that the developments they have done with Wine would carryover to things like Logos. But unfortunately I haven't uncovered anything that would help as of yet.
If anyone from FaithLife would be willing to contact me I would be more than to have their assistance. (I have seen Bradly Grainger's name on this discussion but am not certain if he is still watching this thread)
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Rik, I thought getting Logos to run under WINE was impossible because of the lack of support for WPF (Windows Presentation Framework) in WINE. But if you have Logos running, you seem to have gotten over that barrier. This is a pretty big milestone my friend. I've tried many times to get Logos working under WINE, but never with success. Brother, I salute you. Also, I've only glanced at your Google Doc, but this is a very nice resource for those trying to get Logos running under WINE. I am currently in Haiti doing some missions work. Lord willing, when I return to the US, I'll have some time to look at this. Not sure I can be of any help, but glad to be if that is possible.
You mention Proton above. Yes, I wonder if advancements with WINE through Proton might enable this to work. Basically, if all of the underlying technology that is used to run Logos under Windows can work through WINE then it would seem Logos should work right? Again, I thought the main barrier was WPF, but perhaps not so much any longer. I would be THRILLED to have Logos working under WINE. Please continue to update this thread if there is further information. I am subscribed.
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Very interesting indeed. I'm betting this might really help. Might be the key to the encryption problem. So I'm guessing you'd have to copy the DLLs from windows and load them in WINE? This should be tried out.
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@aaylnx and others, the only thing I have been successful in so far is being stubborn enough to keep trying and lucky enough to see some success.
I don't know what to say about the WPF barrier, but I think dotnet472 (via winetricks) is taking care of the majority of the hard work.
There will be "glitchy" things to cleanup after we get basic functionality working.
Thankfully, Bradley Grainger has replied saying he is certainly interested in any further debugging logging, etc. I think for WINE this is the resource to follow to get output using winedbg: https://wiki.winehq.org/Wine_Developer%27s_Guide
My time is quite limited but I will try as able to get more information to him and the development team. I have also passed the information to other colleagues in other countries that may be able to do some testing (I am with SIL in Ethiopia). There are several hundred MT Bible Translators (with very limited internet) using Linux that could really use Logos resources. So we will keep working on their behalf to see if we can support them in this need. Certainly prayer is needed in these efforts so let's see if we can work together and reach a solution!
I'll keep detailing any progress or failed attempts at the Google Doc, which is free to be contributed to by anyone with the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gms_Bc2Q_OOH3G5lmP6twXnqiSWxrFFT7lCN3nRyymw
Regards,
Rik
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For quite a few years now I've been told that one of the primary impediments to having Logos run on Linux is that there is no WPF (Windows Presentation Framework) on Linux. I believe that may be changing soon. About a week ago it was announced that Microsoft is open sourcing WPF, Windows Forms and Windows UI XAML Library. In fact, Microsoft has already placed WPF, Windows Forms and Windows UI XAML on GitHub.
On the same day as the above mentioned announcement was made .Net Core 3.0 Preview 1 was announced. Linux binaries are now available to download from Microsoft.
Within the same time frame it was also announced that MS will now be basing their browser, Edge, on Chromium and will make it and will start making it available on other platforms (MacOS to start with at least).
All of this makes it seem that MS has decided to not really worry about keeping their technology running only on Windows as it has done in the past. Microsoft is quickly becoming less bound to Windows on the Desktop. Their revenue growth is now heavily based on their cloud offerings like Azure. I'm hoping this may mean that running Logos under WINE will get easier. I don't know that Logos will have the desire to do this, but it looks like major obstacles are being moved out of the way should they ever desire to produce a native version of Logos for Linux. I would be just as happy if they just helped get Logos running under WINE (a much easier goal to achieve). Making their Bible software able to run under WINE is exactly what Bibleworks did some time ago to enable their software to run on MacOS. Yes, yes, I know BW has now closed down, but that's certainly not related to this issue. I know that Faithlife already has a Mac version of Logos, but perhaps they might now have a little interest in helping it to run under Linux. I'm simply asking more than anything else. Faithlife, are you reading any of this and might you now start to think about this? I know it still may take a while for WPF to be running under Linux, but it certainly looks like something of a possibility now. Should you decide to work on this, the Crossover folks will help to port Windows software to run on other platforms that their WINE based Crossover technology runs on.
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So in the interest of trying something different, and because I really enjoy Elementary OS, I went ahead and installed it on my laptop at home a dell xps15 from what 2017 I then installed windows 10 in a vm and installed logos there. I have had no issues so far it is indexing the library right now. I will let you know what if any lag happens... So far I am seeing no real issues, but it is the only thing I am running in the windows machine.
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Aaron Newell said:
installed windows 10 in a vm and installed logos there.
I don't think people in this thread is interested in VM. (Not that they might not did it, but it is trivial to do and nothing to discuss.) They are discussing about running Linux natively, including using WINE (which is a compatibility layer rather than hypervisor.
I don't know if any of you guys will be interested in this—have you guys tried using Anbox? Anbox uses container technology to run Android side by side natively (because they both uses the Linux kernel.) So this will allows you to run Logos for Android natively on Linux, better than nothing.
Note that Anbox is still alpha status. And it has hardcoded screen size so the scaling might not looks good on your device. I tried it and it is actually quite usable despite that.
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Kolen Cheung said:better than nothing.
So, that's what this has come to in the "Product Management" model here.
I'm starting to have the same feelings I had in the months after I had warned the pastor about a 40% exodus from the congregation and was ignored, or more recently the American pastors in Asia of two and three decades, who still hadn't learned a word of the local language, specifically advising that it wouldn't fair well for them among the local citizens.
Then this...
aaylnx said:I'm hoping this may mean that running Logos under WINE will get easier. I don't know that Logos will have the desire to do this, but it looks like major obstacles are being moved out of the way should they ever desire to produce a native version of Logos for Linux. I would be just as happy if they just helped get Logos running under WINE (a much easier goal to achieve).
With Microsoft listening to the people more than the Logos PM road-mappers, it is becoming more and more clear that we have a "Layer 8" issue.
I'm all for WINE! Bravo, ten thousand times "YES, YES, YES!" I'm thinking to support you from Layers 9 and 10 (press and prayer, respectively.)
(Yes, this is on-topic because road-mapping from 'Layer 8' is part of software dev.)
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said:
