FEATURE REQUEST - DATE PICKER for Lectionary on Home Page

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2018 5:58 PM

I'm looking a month ahead in light of the preaching schedule at my parish.  Sometimes up to six weeks depending on the current theme.

With that said, I don't think there is some distinct near-term time frame.  For example, I'm starting to look ahead to Christmas to see if there is something I would want to refer as we walk toward that liturgical season.

Using the software development term "use case" I would plan for a basic/fundamental understanding of the liturgical calendar.  That's really what we are talking about here.  If you want your software design to be durable, the cycle of readings present in the liturgical calendar needs to be inherent in the "card", or however that functionality is presented in the future.  All those future dates and associated readings extend for years/decades.    

Please review Fr. Devin's comments as you work to a solution.

Thanks for the questions. 

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2018 11:48 PM

Daniel Di Bartolo:

For those who would like multiple readings listed on the card... how far in advance do you usually read? What is your primary use case for accessing different dates' readings from the Homepage? 

Thanks for helping us understand what you'd like to have here. 

I think typically one would prepare a week or two in advance, but for special feast days a month or two in advance wouldn't be strange. That being said, in v7, the calendar could handle any date within a few years, I believe. I know when Fr Andrew and I were preparing the Homiletics videos we were looking at dates 6 months to a year away from the current date and it was working properly.

As regards the different dates readings questions, there are actually two separate feature requests that have been mentioned that you might be referring to here. In both cases, the card would only display 1 liturgy and 1 date at a time.

1. List the readings of the selected liturgy - Each liturgy has multiple readings. In v6 and v7, the liturgy "card" displayed the name of the liturgical day, followed by a listing of the readings from that specific liturgy. This allowed the user to click on a specific reading, and the Liturgy Layout would open up, not only to the correct day and liturgy, but also to the reading that the user clicked on.

How did I use this, and why? It was certainly convenient to see at a glance the readings. But it was also useful for a reason that could be fixed in a design where you can't see the readings.... The Liturgy Layout opens up by default to the First Reading of the day, usually from the Old Testament or the letters of Paul. However, usually we preach primarily from the Gospel, and read the First Reading in light of the Gospel. Because of this I like to start by reading the Gospel. So, instead of just clicking to open the Liturgy Layout on the Header, I would click on the Gospel reading, so that it would open up the Liturgy Layout with the Gospel open. If this became the default behavior, for me listing the readings wouldn't be terribly important (but would be nice, just to be able to see them at a glance). 

Note that one thing that complicates this feature request from a UI perspective is that, while most Liturgies have just 3 or 4 readings - possibly pretty easy to accommodate - there are some special liturgies that have more. The most famous case is the Easter Vigil, where there are a total of 17 readings!!! 7 readings from the Old Testament, 7 Psalms, 1 reading from St. Paul, 1 Gospel Acclamation, and 1 Gospel!

2. When more than one liturgy is available on a day, allow users to choose between them - The other request, which I consider more useful (especially if the Liturgy Layout opens to the Gospel), is related to the fact that on many days there are options. Looking through the Catholic Daily Readings resource, the next date in which there are options is on November 13. The default liturgy would be "TUESDAY OF THE THIRTY-SECOND WEEK IN ORDINARY TIME". However, the option is given to celebrate "SAINT FRANCES XAVIER CABRINI, VIRGIN." Ideally on a date like this, there would be some sort of indication that there are options, with a drop-down where the user could select the liturgy they prefer.

This could be something as simple as what Windows does for its audio playback. The arrow on the right indicates there are options:

When I click on it, I can see the options and select the one I want:

Posts 195
Chris K | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2018 11:57 PM

I second Fr. Roza's idea for the Arrow to show/select options for the day.

I know the origninal intent for FL was to have the cards be very simple views, but adding in these features to important cards like the Lectionary Card (and as MJ proposed, the Saints card) would make the UI/Home Dashboard much more powerful and convenient - not only for study/preparation, but also for quick reference!

Posts 11
Matthew Charlesworth SJ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 12:08 AM

Thank you for working on this. I agree that the Lectionary and Saints cards needs some work. At the moment all the Cards in the top section of the dashboard are 1x1, whereas there are cards in the bottom section that are 2x1 or 2x2. I would ask that we could choose what size the cards are - so to include that in the dropdown, or perhaps allow them to be resized with the /// in the bottom right corner (as in this forum's Description rich-text box). The card could also enlarge when there is more content, e.g. at Easter.

But it would be nice if I could, for example have a small or larger 'Verse of the Day' and to move the cards around and choose their size according to my preference.

Personally, I like seeing the readings listed so that I can hover over them quickly just to get a sense in the beginning of the day so I know what to think about and then when I'm sitting down to write I would click on the Liturgy Layout and use it that way.

Another option might be to have a card that has the calendar (the Mon-Sun monthly calendar with the options to select a date) be displayed as a card and when you click on that the other cards that can be linked to that (by default Saints, Lectionary, Devotionals?) update...

Posts 195
Chris K | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 12:20 AM

If I may be so bold as to propose a possible mock-up of a card with the features described for picking alternate feasts/celebrations of the day, as well as an option to show additional readings of the feast.  (please note the readings listed don't line up to the Tuesday of the 32 Week of Ordinary Time).

Instead of the plus sign (pending on how the UI is coded) the card could also "grow" longer to accommodate a larger reading list on special days, so the home page would be more of a tiled/masonry look vs. a uniformed look.  Or it took take the height of 2 cards when needed.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 12:25 AM

Chris, try your mockup on Holy Thursday of the Byzantine lectionary or the Vigil Mass of the Catholic lectionary. Will your design support these maximum cases? For the computer design perspective we have to always consider both the minimum (zero for Holy Saturday) and the maximums. I have not personally tried to work out the font size forced by extreme cases.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 195
Chris K | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 12:28 AM

MJ. Smith:

Chris, try your mockup on Holy Thursday of the Byzantine lectionary or the Vigil Mass of the Catholic lectionary. Will your design support these maximum cases? For the computer design perspective we have to always consider both the minimum (zero for Holy Saturday) and the maximums. I have not personally tried to work out the font size forced by extreme cases.

That I would have to leave up to the FL programmers - my main goal was to give an idea/capture the essence of the features that were mentioned.  I would think the zeros would be easy (blank card).  The maximums might need to use an "..." for text too long - as is the case with many things that the text doesn't fit the required space.  When opened in the layout, it would then show the full title.   I do have the "+" sign (bottom right) to accommodate the additional readings - or, as suggested, possibly increasing the height of the card for those occasions.

How did V7 handle the maximums?  Were they shortened at all?  Right now V8 is using the "..." for the current date in the Roman Catholic Lectionary: "Tuesday of the Thirty-First Week in..." so my guess it would continue that as necessary.  I don't think the card needs to utilize that big of a font as it is currently, a smaller font to fit more content/features in the card would work.

As it stands now, the card is about the same size (albeit horizontal vs. vertical as the space in V7 used for the Lectionary preview, so I think it is possible to "cram" all the requested things into the space in a way that would work.  The liturgical color ribbon could also be shrunk down to allow for more space (I definitely like the color present on the card - but in the current design it takes up a lot of real estate that might be used better for these features - perhaps just a stripe running along one of the sides would be enough (though a line/shading to help distinguish the white) or maybe the Header area of the card can be the liturgical color?

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 12:40 AM

Nice design, Chris.

I would be fine with a "..." if the readings don't fit on some days, as long as it is designed so that on a typical weekday or Sunday they fit.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 12:44 AM

Daniel Di Bartolo:
For those who would like multiple readings listed on the card... how far in advance do you usually read? What is your primary use case for accessing different dates' readings from the Homepage? 

I swear I posted a response that disappeared into thin air. From the question, I am not sure you understand what I was trying to point you to in the examples:

  1. On a given liturgical date you may have a choice of what to celebrate e.g. Thanksgiving or the saint of the day
  2. Once you have chosen what will be celebrated you may have multiple services - vigil, daybreak, during the day - all of which may be used
  3. Once you know what you are celebrating and for what service, you may have a choice of reading sets identified by a lectionary number
  4. Once you have it down to a lectionary number, you may have a choice of long/short readings and alternative readings.
  5. You are now down to the 2-22 readings for the specific service.

All of the above was shown on the home page side bar in Logos 7. I am not convinced that all that functionality can be transformed to a card format even with hover capabilities. Or put another way, it may be possible but with such an abuse of the card concept that it may not be wise.

Therefore, it may be necessary to enhance the behavior of the lectionary layout to compensate for the loss on the home page. This would include:

  1. opening with the focus on the Gospel
  2. easy navigation to cycle through the readings Gospel, first, second, third ... names vary by lectionary
  3. easy navigation to (a) other services for the date (b) other celebration for the day (c) previous/next day (d) previous/next Sunday

In addition, a personal lectionary must be selectable even if all dates are future - recent example, a European lectionary for the 2018-2019 year.

Further, the Saints cannot simply copy the lectionary logic without a reworking of the Sanctoral cycle (calendar of saints universally celebrated) for Catholics and the creation of equivalent resources for Lutherans and Anglicans (information on wikipedia is reasonable accurate for this).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 195
Chris K | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 12:52 AM

Just another possibility to free up real estate on the card (not too thrilled with how the ribbon looks, but this is just a quick idea mock-up).

This would give more space on the card for displaying more readings/options/etc.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 12:56 AM

Chris K:
How did V7 handle the maximums? 

The problem did not occur in L7 because the sidebar had no vertical constraints - the card format is based on:

  • cards of a consistent size
  • cards of minimal functionality with a clean design so that on small screens a quick glance is all you need in order to make your selection
  • cards that can maintain their format and function across as many platforms as practical

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that we need to think not just how to get L7 functionality into L8 but also how to keep L8 internally consistent.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 195
Chris K | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 12:56 AM

MJ. Smith:

Daniel Di Bartolo:
For those who would like multiple readings listed on the card... how far in advance do you usually read? What is your primary use case for accessing different dates' readings from the Homepage? 

I swear I posted a response that disappeared into thin air. From the question, I am not sure you understand what I was trying to point you to in the examples:

  1. On a given liturgical date you may have a choice of what to celebrate e.g. Thanksgiving or the saint of the day
  2. Once you have chosen what will be celebrated you may have multiple services - vigil, daybreak, during the day - all of which may be used
  3. Once you know what you are celebrating and for what service, you may have a choice of reading sets identified by a lectionary number
  4. Once you have it down to a lectionary number, you may have a choice of long/short readings and alternative readings.
  5. You are now down to the 2-22 readings for the specific service.

Thanks for the clarification - my thought (which is what Fr. Roza suggested) was that the down arrow would list the different feasts, and could list as well the different services (vigil/etc.) of those.

The card would then update to show the appropriate readings.

If there are too many to list on the card, we could either utilize the "+" symbol (shown on the lower right in the mock-ups), in which case a pop-up would show all the readings for that feast/service, or (pending on if it is possible with how the UI is coded), the card could "grow" vertically to a lot for the necessary space, creating more of a masonry grid (like the lower part of the dashboard) vs. a uniform grid.

Posts 195
Chris K | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 1:17 AM

Two more thoughts before I head to bed:

1) it was mentioned being able to select between lectionaries - I assume if we have more than one lectionary in our library, we could create more than one lectionary card, that way our home page could show different lectionary cards?  The name of the lectionary on the card could also be a link that would allow you to select/switch between the owned lectionaries (and personal ones). 

2) while I know “cards” aren’t really designed for this, in the cases where there are more readings to list then vertical space allows, a subtle scroll bar could appear on the side of the card to scroll down to see more readings. This would keep the card height consistent without being constrained by the vertical space. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 1:20 AM

I do not have strong opinions on how the card works - only that it handle all lectionaries not just the Western 1 or 3 year one.

My personal preference would be that the card ,which is the quick-glance, emphasize the choice of what is being celebrated over the readings ... and that choice of reading groups (lectionary number) be relegated to the lectionary layout. Stronger, however, is my preference that those with preaching responsibilities have their interests take preference over those with teaching and devotional interests.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 1:27 AM

Chris K:
1) it was mentioned being able to select between lectionaries - I assume if we have more than one lectionary in our library, we could create more than one lectionary card, that way our home page could show different lectionary cards?  The name of the lectionary on the card could also be a link that would allow you to select/switch between the owned lectionaries (and personal ones). 

I also assume one lectionary=one card ... at least until Liturgy of the Hours is better supported. But there are some interesting quirks on this that if an Anglican were to complain about, I would reconsider. But as long as it doesn't bother them, it doesn't bother me ... It also might become an issue with support of the Narrative lectionary.

Chris K:
2) while I know “cards” aren’t really designed for this, in the cases where there are more readings to list then vertical space allows, a subtle scroll bar could appear on the side of the card to scroll down to see more readings. This would keep the card height consistent without being constrained by the vertical space. 

This is where my computer nerd background causes me to say "whoa, slow down" ... what you say makes sense until you start carrying it across a variety of screen sizes and consider touch vs. mouse vs. .... It's well worth throwing out ideas but one needs to spend as much time figuring out why they might not work as one spends on what problems it solves.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 2:58 AM

MJ. Smith:

only future dates on the Home Page e.g. when someone build the Season of Creation lectionary as a shared PB, there is no need to build in prior dates ... and the season only includes 4 Sundays of September ... but one needs to be able to see them in advance for planning purposes.

For someone that does not normally use the Lectionary function being able to go back to at least last Sunday's reading might be useful.  For example that user remembers how a reading last Sunday affected them during church but what was the reading?  Yes, most of us can use the full tool and find it but what about the novice user?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 11:42 AM

David Ames:
For someone that does not normally use the Lectionary function being able to go back to at least last Sunday's reading might be useful.  For example that user remembers how a reading last Sunday affected them during church but what was the reading?  Yes, most of us can use the full tool and find it but what about the novice user?

You may have misunderstood what I meant. Recently a user from Europe build a personal book for the 2018-2019 liturgical year's lectionary for his country. He cannot get it to show on the home page without entering a date of today's date or earlier. Germany, for example, is starting a new modified lectionary for the 2018-2019 year. They should be able to start it on the First Sunday of Advent when it takes effect. Yes, one needs to be able to see prior entries, but one shouldn't have to invent prior entries.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Chris K | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 10 2019 12:52 PM

Faithlife, has there been any more progress/word on this?

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Craig St. Clair (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 11 2019 10:56 AM

Chris K,

Yes!  I've been in dialogue with our dev team and we're aiming to have something to announce soon.

Stay tuned....

--Craig

Craig St. Clair | Verbum Product Manager |

Posts 195
Chris K | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 11 2019 11:26 AM

Awesome! Thx!

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