Errors

Hey Guys,

I thought it would be good to let you know that in your Video on the Greek alphabet you have a mistake. You left out the vowel upsilon and you used the upsilon's letters for psi's. Thought you should know. I like the videos so far.

This brings up a question. What will be your policy on updates for this video series?

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Comments

William

You left out the vowel upsilon and you used the upsilon's letters for psi's.

To go on and answer the question that is written after this sentence, I am sure there is not much they could do to update the video. It is recorded onto the discs. It does not seem that they could post a video for "download."

I am still looking forward to mine coming. Luckily, I am already familiar with the alphabet because of my math and science background.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140172#Comment_140172

Oh man....that's unfortunate....

V1.1 coming soon....

Jonathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140217#Comment_140217

I really hope they fix this issue and several others. There are some glaring mistakes which a good editor should have caught. They really owe it to the customer to fix these mistakes.

There are places where: the audio stumbles, the video is 5-10 seconds out of sync with the audio (an unacceptable mistake), someone says "cut" at the end of scene, the instructor discusses something that he says should be one the screen but is not, the audio cuts out or pauses where obvious editing was not done correctly, and complete words or phrases are repeated because someone improperly edited the video. And worst of all, I found all of these mistakes before I reached the lessons on Greek verbs.

I question whether anyone actually watched these videos prior to production. In my opinion, some of the problems are horrendous. I have had Greek (six plus years) and believe that the content is well taught, but if the editor doesn't splice in the right section than all the teaching is wasted. How can someone trust these videos if even the alphabet is botched.

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140360#Comment_140360

In my opinion, some of the problems are horrendous.

Boy this is a real shame. To bad the old adage always rears its head, To err is human. I wonder if Logos did get into a bit of a hurry to ship these videos because we pestered them so much? I wonder how much they could do even now to correct these problems? At what point is it just not cost effective to correct some mistakes. Again, I can just remember my ex-wife working for a company that produced safety videos. (I was widowed.) There was stuff like that when she would have to go back into the film suite to edit again. I just wish I really remembered if it was really possible to correct the video or not...I just dont recall if it was a really big deal to fix a minor thing or if it ended up being a major thing to correct a minor thing.

Jonathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140368#Comment_140368

Hopefully people don't get the wrong idea from my post... The content is great, but the editing needs work.

I've been watching the Hebrew video and so far it seems much better.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140368#Comment_140368

Again, I can just remember my ex-wife working for a company that produced safety videos. (I was widowed.)

Don't you mean your "late wife"? One's "ex-wife" usually means something else (I know you've explained "I was widowed" but that wouldn't be necessary if you called her your "late wife" which is pretty universally understood as a wife one has lost to death; most people wouldn't think you were referring to her habitual tardiness [:)]). And, BTW, so sorry for your loss, even though it may have been long ago...

Also, I couldn't agree more that it's a shame the editing wasn't as good as the teaching on these videos. I'm still waiting for mine... I'm sure it's possible to correct these problems, but if they've already pressed a lot of DVDs, they'd probably want to wait until they sell them all before making another release of it. [:(] And unlike with downloadable products, I doubt we'd all get a free upgrade when/if the errors get fixed. They should have had a beta test of these with a few of us nitpicky editor types looking over them... (Just so we could have gotten ours first! [:)])

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140382#Comment_140382

Don't you mean your "late wife"?

Thanks Rosie....I think I knew that term...late....I will try to remember that. This is the second time in short order....

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140375#Comment_140375

Hopefully people don't get the wrong idea from my post... The content is great

Jonathan,

Thank you for the post. I am really looking forward to mine. I hope it will be Monday or Tuesday.

I am pushing myself to go back to graduate school in the Fall and trying to get a heads up on a couple of the classes. The textbook seems to be pretty good so far. I have been able to work from it without a great deal of blood, sweat, and tears. I know one thing. I am having a much better time studying this chemistry instead of mathematics. This is sort of strange for me because my first love is math.

Anyway, I am really hoping these language DVD's allow me to get into the original word to some "depth." I am hopeful that I will be able to balance this with my studies in chemistry.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140395#Comment_140395

Anyway, I am really hoping these language DVD's allow me to get into the original word to some "depth." I am hopeful that I will be able to balance this with my studies in chemistry.

I will keep you in prayer over the next few months/years. I chose the other route. Though I liked Math, my undergraduate major was chemistry. My graduate work has been in seminary (MDiv), computer science (MCSEd), and counseling (MEd). I would no longer be able to keep up the pace of graduate school - though I am hoping the DVDs will help me refresh some of the Greek and Hebrew I learned in seminary.

Enjoy your education.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140375#Comment_140375

The content is great, but the editing needs work.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but doesn't Logos have a return policy if the customer isn't satisfied with the software?

Edit:

I just spoke with Logos and if someone is not satisfied, the product can be returned and they will even send you a pre-paid envelope.

Jonathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140464#Comment_140464

The content is great, but the editing needs work.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but doesn't Logos have a return policy if the customer isn't satisfied with the software?

Edit:

I just spoke with Logos and if someone is not satisfied, the product can be returned and they will even send you a pre-paid envelope.

I am aware of their return policy, but, frankly, I'd like to keep the dvds as the teaching content is quite good.

I've emailed Logos and I am hoping to hear back from Logos regarding if they plan to fix these issues. I really don't want to send them back if they are going to fix these issues. It could also be that I'm being overly critical. However, I would be surprised if others were not somewhat annoyed with the constant pauses and changes in volume. I would love to see this product improved, rather that seeing it sent back.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140515#Comment_140515

Mine arrived today - I am hoping that they will re-do/re-edit the video containing

factual errors
production errors

in that order.

Fred

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140515#Comment_140515

Two thoughts:

1. Those that find errors should report them all here. This will not only help Logos if it is interested in fixing them, but it will also help those of us that are total original language tyros (who might otherwise not spot the errors).

2. Inasmuch as there may not be any way to download corrected updates, I am hoping that Logos will, after correcting as many errors as possible, make V.1.1 DVD's available for no more than the cost of postage.

Actually, a third thought: I do expect that Logos will want to get these DVD's as polished as possible. I think improving these DVD's, which emphasize helping many of us do more with the original languages, which is after all a Logos strong point, will likely get a lot of attention at Logos - I think the DVD's are likely a high-profile Logos product.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140527#Comment_140527

I agree, let's post the errors here to help Logos...

As someone mentioned the delta is missing in the alphabet portion of the Greek video.

Praiser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140583#Comment_140583

Has anyone noticed that the lesson on the Greek alphabet is one letter short of a full load: the letter delta is missing!

quoted from http://community.logos.com/forums/t/18205.aspx?PageIndex=2

Johnny Cisneros

Hi Hunter,

I just spoke with the editor and today we're going to resolve those issues in the Alphabet Video. I'll let you know when it is available for download.

Thanks!

Johnny

Bob Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140602#Comment_140602

I have noticed lots of major editing errors. I pre-ordered this for $160 or so. Now its going for $500.

No offense, but for either of these prices... you would think they would have aimed higher for production and professionalism.

Also - I was a little surprised they didn't even put it in a nice box or anything. Just 2 discs in a little white envelope, no logo, etc. Its a small thing, but a little tacky for the price that is paid for the product.

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140527#Comment_140527

Those that find errors should report them all here. This will not only help Logos if it is interested in fixing them, but it will also help those of us that are total original language tyros (who might otherwise not spot the errors).

Yes, please do! Preferably:

after checking the Technical FAQs and relevant sections of the wiki (down toward the bottom of the page)
in a new thread with an informative subject line:
- good: "Greek 02: the alphabet is missing the letter delta"
- not so good: "Something's wrong here!", "Can somebody look at this?", etc.
pointing out which chapter contains the error: we're working on supplemental material that will be organized by chapter, so that will help us know where to put more information

These videos are an important new product for us, so we do want to make them as good as we can.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140714#Comment_140714

Sean,

I have not received my DVD's yet, hopefully today. But reading about all these very basic errors and poor quality editing is just very disturbing and disheartening.

Can you please let us know what level of editorial review this product has gone through before being shipped? Can you post the credentials of the team involved in producing, reviewing, and editing the content?

Thanks,

Peter

Fred

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140744#Comment_140744

I have not received my DVD's yet, hopefully today. But reading about all these very basic errors and poor quality editing is just very disturbing and disheartening.

I have not received mine yet either (maybe today...). However, I myself would use the term "disappointing", rather than "disturbing" or "disheartening". (Of course, I am not saying, Peter, that ~you~ cannot use those words, but just that ~I~ feel somewhat differently.) I think that Logos will address these issues and will come up with some sort of a solution. I suspect that glaring errors may result in a few revised videos being made available by download, and that eventually there will be entire V.1.1 DVD's mailed out - I really do not expect Logos to "leave us hanging". (I suspect that there are some meetings going on at Logos about these issues already...) Part of my faith in all of the above is based upon past experience with Logos, and part of it is based upon my belief that these DVD's are likely a very high profile item in the Logos marketing strategy.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140750#Comment_140750

Just thinking ...

It should be possible to release some kind of "delta" or patch files and a program to process them, if the number of fixes needed are few. It would write the updated video file back to your PC/Mac. Such a tool could be built into Logos4, and could be a good option going foward, to make minor fixes.

Of course, if a disk is really messed up, then a refund or replacement seems in order.

I can't think why it would be too hard to run a "delta" of changes against a video/audio stream, if there was the will to release such a tool.

Thomas Ball

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140360#Comment_140360

Jonathan:

The problem with the "stumbles" or "hitches" are due to the size of file streaming from the disc. It is reliant much on one's read speed. That having been said there are two ways we can mitigate this.

1. Copy the files to your computer.

2. Use VLC. I've noticed that VLC (a free audio/video player) plays the files much better, and reacts better when the scrubber is used. I have tried it on Windows and the Mac and across the board had a better experience than in Quicktime. You can get it here http://www.videolan.org/vlc/.

Jonathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140887#Comment_140887

Jonathan:

The problem with the "stumbles" or "hitches" are due to the size of file streaming from the disc. It is reliant much on one's read speed. That having been said there are two ways we can mitigate this.

1. Copy the files to your computer.

2. Use VLC. I've noticed that VLC (a free audio/video player) plays the files much better, and reacts better when the scrubber is used. I have tried it on Windows and the Mac and across the board had a better experience than in Quicktime. You can get it here http://www.videolan.org/vlc/.

I am pretty convinced that this is not a streaming or software issue. I will try this on my other pc, but I really don't think it will make a difference. I've copied and even once recopied the files to hard drive and nothing changes.

In the dative video at 23:44 I always get mismatched audio and video. I have tried playing the files in the program you suggested and I am not seeing any change.

The other pausing I have encountered is mostly where there was obvious editing. What I mean by a "cut out" or "pause" is when you can noticeable tell
that certain words or phrases were not part of the original audio. There
is an abnormal insertion of phrases and words which was obviously added
later. I cannot find an example at the moment, but you can hear the background noise fade out and back in, then two-three words are inserted, and then the background noise fades out and in again. I remember these issues happening most often in the nominative and dative videos. However, I have noticed it happening in just about every video I've watched so far (I've watched to the Greek Pronoun Video).

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140902#Comment_140902

Since it is the "first" time Logos has produced training dvd's of this sort, there can be glitches; that I understand. But I would also expect the finished product (or replacements) to live up to the description of the dvd's as advertised:

Videos come on 2 DVD-ROMs. The DVDs are designed for your computer and will not play in a normal DVD player. The videos are formatted in h.264 (HD) and optimized for Quicktime 7 and Windows Media Player 12.
A web-like user interface is included.
Leave the content on the DVD, or copy it to your hard drive.

Hopefully, this will get sorted out so that customers are satisfied.

Jonathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140902#Comment_140902

I cannot find an example at the moment, but you can hear the background noise fade out and back in, then two-three words are inserted, and then the background noise fades out and in again.

I just found an example of what I am talking about... It not as obvious as some of the others I have noticed, but if watch the video on headphones it is hard to miss.

In the Conjunctions video there are two of these problems between 7:00-7:30.

1.) At 7:04 he says "which is what the conjunction 'and' here is really supporting," then a change in audio quality and the addition of "in the ESV," then there is a complete cut in the audio followed by the next sentence.

2.) At 7:20 "and then because of his lengthy description of love," then an audio break and the addition of a quickly "abutting" statement, "may have felt the need to still encourage them to desire spiritual gifts." With this error it seems that the addition was not given adequate pause. It sounds like someone moved the audio a half -second forward.

Again, these examples are not as obvious as some of the others. You will probably only notice these if you are listening on a high quality audio system or through a pair of headphones. And the error's above are what I would call "only mildly annoying" when compared to the more obvious ones. But this is the best example I can come up with at the moment.

The frustrating part for me with the audio is why insert two-three words in the middle of a sentence? If that phrase is so important and you cannot get the audio correct, why not have the whole scene (or at least paragraph) redone? I'm no editor, but if the editing sounds shoddy, why edit? Seems to defeat the purpose.

Chuck P.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140947#Comment_140947

"Hopefully, this will get sorted out so that customers are satisfied."

In my opinion, since blank DVD's are not expensive and Logos did not include an option to copy the DVD's to the customer's hard drive and everyone created their own filenames and hard disk locations, the only solution would be to develop new corrected masters and remake all customers DVD's and resend them, at Logos' expense.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140902#Comment_140902

In the dative video at 23:44 I always get mismatched audio and video. I have tried playing the files in the program you suggested and I am not seeing any change.

I can confirm a mismatch between audio and video here as well. There also seems to be a change in quality of audio, but that's a very minor issue (IMHO).

I get the mismatch with Windows Media Player and with the QuickTime player.

Note that I have the video files copied to my hard drive.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140972#Comment_140972

I received my set yesterday and started watching the Hebrew videos. I have copied them to my hard drive and noticed no problems with what I have watched so far. It seems most of the issues cited in this thread relate to the Greek videos. Johnnie Cisneros has already posted a statement that one of the videos is being fixed and will be available for download. Based on my prior experience with Logos I am confident that they will work through any issues that exist and do everything possible to satisfy their customers. As has already been stated a couple of times, this resource (and I suspect future resources of similar kind) will be a significant part of future marketing campaign.

I encourage everyone to identify and post any errors or problems you find so that Logos is aware of them and can resolve them. I also enocurage everyone to maintain a positive outlook regarding Logos and this product. Based on what I've watched so far, the benefits of this series is tremendous and outweighs any issues that may exist.[:)]

Paul Martin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140602#Comment_140602

Please let me know when the updates become available and where to access them!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141098#Comment_141098

Please let me know when the updates become available and where to access them!

The best way to be sure you are notified is to subscribe to this and the other forum threads where errors have been mentioned (particularly this one where Johnny promises to let us know when an update is available for download: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/18205/140603.aspx#140603) by scrolling to the top of the thread and clicking on "Email me when someone replies."

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140972#Comment_140972

"Hopefully, this will get sorted out so that customers are satisfied."

In my opinion, since blank DVD's are not expensive and Logos did not include an option to copy the DVD's to the customer's hard drive and everyone created their own filenames and hard disk locations, the only solution would be to develop new corrected masters and remake all customers DVD's and resend them, at Logos' expense.

I agree. This is what I paid for-2 dvd's that do not have errors. Yes, and I believe the responsiblity clearly lies with Logos not with the customer to fix this.

Kaye Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141194#Comment_141194

You know, I've been a short term customer with Logos, having come in as a user right before Logos 4 was released but I've noticed two things about the company:

1) They tend to rush products to the user group before they are production quality, maybe partly because of pressure from us.

2) They listen to their user group and fully stand behind what they sell, making every effort to deliver, farther down the road from initial release, a wonderful product. The chance to give our input toward the final version has made Logos 4 excellent in ways it would never have been if we were not part of this process.

I'm not saying everyone should do business this way but I think to be a Logos customer and enjoy the final product we must accept that this is their current model. I can tell already that my ability to use Logos 4 and to study deeper, as a layperson, will be drastically better with this product. I'll be even more excited when issues are fixed and I can use it to the fullest extent.

Peace and a wonderful day!

Kaye :-)

Bob Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140602#Comment_140602

we're going to resolve those issues in the Alphabet Video. I'll let you know when it is available for download.

With all the audio, technical and even Greek errors for "Learning to use Greek"... I purchased these videos to come on a DVD, not download. So speaking for myself, I would prefer finalized DVDs with the issues resolved. That makes the most sense, as that is what everyone has paid for.

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141270#Comment_141270

I purchased these videos to come on a DVD, not download

This was the only way to get them.

Mike Heiser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140172#Comment_140172

actually, there are new alphabet videos to download. I'll post something here when I get the final URL for that. They were actually made before the product shipped (Johnny and I caught the errors - something to do with rendering).

Mike Heiser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140360#Comment_140360

The hesitation issue may be answered here:

http://www.logos.com/learn/faq

Also, for the "audio sync" problem, you can follow these directions:

Customer can go into the folder "Learn_to_Use_Greek (or
Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) and copy the folder "Videos" to their local hard
drive (about 6GB for Hebrew, 8 GB for Greek).

Then they can open the videos from that folder directly
with QuickTime 7.6.6 (best experience), VLC, or Windows Media Player 12
(Windows 7 only)

In case the page has not been updated yet, here is updated text of technical issue problems/answers that I have:

Technical F.A.Q.s for Learn
to Use Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software

1. What are the best
practices for watching these videos on a PC?

- Make sure your
browser is up to date. Internet Explorer 8 (Safari for Mac)is the best
choice when playing the videos off of the discs. Or just navigate to the
"Videos" folder Learn_to_Use_Greek (or Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) ->
Videos and copy it to your Hard Drive. Then open the individual videos with
QuickTime 7.6.6 (recommended), Windows Media Player 12, or VLC

- Download the latest
version of QuickTime (7.6.6 or later) it is important that you are fully up to
date as earlier versions may not display the chapter menu, or controls in 64bit
Windows systems.

- Click on the videos
in the column "Quicktime w/Chapters" these videos play at 960x540 and
should work well on most systems.

2. When I click on
videos in the column "Default Player" the video is larger, but I
don't see any controls for the video?

- Try pressing the F11
key to view the page in Full screen.

- If your monitor is
too small for the video at this resolution (1280x720), try the column
"QuickTime w/Chapters"

3. I am using Windows
Vista or Windows XP, and I can't download Windows Media Player 12. And Windows
Media Player 11 won't work for these videos.

- Currently Windows
Media Player 12 is only available for Windows 7.

4. Can I use VLC or
REAL Player to view these videos if I do not want to download Quicktime?

- Yes.

5. Can I copy the contents of the disc to my hard drive or thumb drive for personal use?

- Yes, just copy the
"Videos" folder Learn_to_Use_Greek (or Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) ->
Videos and copy it to your Hard Drive. Then open the individual videos with
QuickTime 7.6.6 (recommended), Windows Media Player 12, or VLC

6. When playing the disc I am seeing
some "jerkiness" in the videos.

- Just copy the "Videos" folder
Learn_to_Use_Greek (or Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) -> Videos and copy it to your
Hard Drive. Then open the individual videos with QuickTime 7.6.6 (recommended),
Windows Media Player 12, or VLC

7. Will these videos play on a
normal DVD player? Why not?

- No. This video series has nearly
19 hours of HD content. Regular DVDs only offer a fraction of the resolution
used for these videos. Additionally, the series would have to span nearly 10
discs. The result would have been lower quality for a higher price.

8. When playing off the disc, I
notice that when I drag the little slider (playhead) to a point later in the
movie that it stutters and takes time to "catch up," why is that?

- The disc drive is not as fast as
if the files were copied to your internal hard drive. Consequently it cannot
keep up when one "scrubs" back and forth.

The best bet is to just copy the "Videos" folder
Learn_to_Use_Greek (or Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) -> Videos and copy it to your
Hard Drive. Then open the individual videos with QuickTime 7.6.6 (recommended),
Windows Media Player 12, or VLC

9. Can I copy the contents of the
disc to a thumb drive for my personal use?

- Yes.

10. Can I play these videos for a
class?

- These videos are licensed for your
personal use, they can be used in a class if the students own their own copies
as well.

Mark Stevens

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141354#Comment_141354

Mike I have yet to receive my copy (I'm in Australia) but I must admit I am becoming very worried about the quality of these DVDs. The marketing told me that they were HD and as such I expect that the quality will be top shelf! Now I hear that there are audio issues, issues with teh DVDs themselves, they come without packaging and the editing of the videos is below par. Please assure me that this is nit the case? Please assure me that I haven't outlayed a sizable amount of money for something that doesn't live up to the marketing? I am really worried!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141354#Comment_141354

The hesitation issue may be answered here:

http://www.logos.com/learn/faq

In case the page has not been updated yet, here is updated text of technical issue problems/answers that I have:

Technical F.A.Q.s for Learn to Use Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software

....

10. Can I play these videos for a class?

- These videos are licensed for your personal use, they can be used in a class if the students own their own copies as well.

Mike, the FAQ as you posted them are different from the ones on the website. (It appears yours is the more up-to-date and hasn't been updated on the website yet.) Among other differences, the page on the website does not include the question "Can I play these videos for a class" nor is there any indication on the website that you can't unless students own their own copies. In fact, on the info page about the videos (http://www.logos.com/learn), there appears to be explicit unqualified encouragement to professors to use them in their classes (my bold/red):

Professors

Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software is perfect for teaching preparation in your courses that focus on Greek and Hebrew tools for English readers. Use the videos to prepare your lessons. Learn new teaching methods, and glean ideas for your own teaching and lecturing on the original languages. Professors teaching traditional first year Greek and Hebrew courses can use the videos for showing students how to use their language training for exegesis.
Integrate technology into the classroom. Supplement your teaching and lectures with high definition video. Help your students use Logos Bible Software for studying the Bible with the original languages.

Has something changed internally with the decision about how these are to be licensed? I haven't received mine yet so I don't know if there is any license agreement included with them that one must agree to before breaking the seal.

It seems to me it would be quite shortsighted of Logos not to allow people to play videos demonstrating Logos in action to other people who don't own Logos yet. What an incredible missed marketing opportunity that would be!

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141421#Comment_141421

I haven't received mine yet so I don't know if there is any license agreement included with them that one must agree to before breaking the seal.

Seal? Mine came in a CD shipping envelope, where the flap folded over into the grooves. No seal, no tape, no nothing. Just two Dvds in sleeves and some marketing material for other Logos products.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141403#Comment_141403

I am really worried!

I have to say this is annoying for us here, but more so for those of you outside the USA. Imagine how you'll feel if the DVDs you get won't work because of production issues. Another 4 week wait for a replacement set? Downloading all of them (if that's an option)? I pray that isn't necessary. I do hope they work when you get them.

This was a big project and a first for Logos, and there have been problems that should/could have been avoided.I know we are all being as patient as we can be.

I hope the final outcome will make all of us happy.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141453#Comment_141453

It seems like the same kind of attitude that moved the production of L4 along before it was completed. I know that LOGOS will take care of it - but I really don't like the pattern they are setting for themselves.

Sort of feels like deja vu.

Bob Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141474#Comment_141474

As a Mac user, I have said for a long time that it feels we are treated like the neglected step-children with Logos Bible Software. However, now seeing how they have handled the Greek & Hebrew DVDs with such poor professionalism and just plain unacceptable care and pride for the product itself... I'm seriously starting to be concerned that there is little care for the customer at all.

It seems the idea is good, but honestly... a poorly edited product with even the most basic errors in alphabet & sound?? Its sad that Logos admits to noticing such major mistakes prior to shipping the product and chose to ship it anyways. Even sadder than that is the fact that Logos did not disclose these errors to the customer with the product packaging (or lack of). Instead they waited for some customers to find the problem, post about it, and then explain that a download is coming soon to fix this. If you knew you made these errors... why not be proactive? Why wait to be caught and called with your mistakes??

As for the download option - The fix for a poorly edited product with even the most basic editing errors is not to provide long downloads of huge video files as a reaction to those who were smart enough to find your mistakes... but to fix the problems and mail new DVDs that are more appropriate for a paying customer. At $160 and now $500 for 2 DVDs of videos... I find it very hard to believe that it wasn't in the budget to bring a sound level up once in a while before making a master copy. Sorry but I just find this unacceptable. I would hope that you, as a company, would agree with me.

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141509#Comment_141509

why not be proactive?

Bob:

We've actually taken a number of steps to try and provide proactive support for the videos, including:

establishing distinct forums for the videos (so users don't get lost among all the other forum issues)
establishing support pages for the videos at http://logos.com/learn (much more content will be forthcoming soon:)
creating spaces on the support wiki (for general issues, Greek, and Hebrew)

We never like publishing materials with errors or glitches. But we're constantly balancing competing business priorities and resources, along with users asking "when is it going to ship?" To make matters more challenging, this is a new kind of product for us: we haven't done video production before. But rest assured that we're working hard to address the problems that arise.

J. Morris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141530#Comment_141530

We never like publishing materials with errors or glitches. But we're constantly balancing competing business priorities and resources, along with users asking "when is it going to ship?"

I have a bit of an issue with this business philosophy...

Your ok with shipping products with errors and glitches IF customers add enough pressure?

When/Why does a lower grade product with errors and glitches take a higher priority over shipping a reviewed polished product?

I 'love' ya Logos... but you can do better than that...

Jonathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141530#Comment_141530

why not be proactive?

Bob:

We've actually taken a number of steps to try and provide proactive support for the videos, including:

establishing distinct forums for the videos (so users don't get lost among all the other forum issues)

establishing support pages for the videos at http://logos.com/learn (much more content will be forthcoming soon:)

creating spaces on the support wiki (for general issues, Greek, and Hebrew)

We never like publishing materials with errors or glitches. But we're constantly balancing competing business priorities and resources, along with users asking "when is it going to ship?" To make matters more challenging, this is a new kind of product for us: we haven't done video production before. But rest assured that we're working hard to address the problems that arise.

That is not exactly what anyone means by being proactive.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141565#Comment_141565

Your ok with shipping products with errors and glitches IF customers add enough pressure?

No we aren't okay with that.

We do (intentionally) ship products without all the planned features written, and of course every software product has bugs, and they get prioritized and triaged, but never all fixed. It's okay to ship a v1.0 knowing v1.1 will be even better. But content is a bit different than software, and outright errors are different than "things we could do better with more time." We collectively made a mistake here, for which I apologize. This was our first time with this type of product, and while we have a lot of experience shipping software (and processes for doing so), we're new to shipping video products.

We'll address this, and fix the process as part of that.

Mark Stevens

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141592#Comment_141592

Your ok with shipping products with errors and glitches IF customers add enough pressure?

No we aren't okay with that.

We do (intentionally) ship products without all the planned features written, and of course every software product has bugs, and they get prioritized and triaged, but never all fixed. It's okay to ship a v1.0 knowing v1.1 will be even better. But content is a bit different than software, and outright errors are different than "things we could do better with more time." We collectively made a mistake here, for which I apologize. This was our first time with this type of product, and while we have a lot of experience shipping software (and processes for doing so), we're new to shipping video products.

We'll address this, and fix the process as part of that.

Thanks for responding Bob but what does this mean for International Customers?

Mark Stevens

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141606#Comment_141606

Bob, can I just say that some of my own personal frustration is with the marketing. It raised my own expectation so high when I hear of so many problems i worry that I will be sorely disappointed. Thats all! [:)]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141620#Comment_141620

Bob, can I just say that some of my own personal frustration is with the marketing. It raised my own expectation so high when I hear of so many problems i worry that I will be sorely disappointed. Thats all!

Mark,

you won't be "sorely disappointed" brother.

Yes...there are problems....and yes some of them are "fundamental" types...but the DVD's aren't garbage or unusable or anything like that..in fact...except for the sound issues and what's been mentioned....I've found them to be very very good.

Paul Martin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141592#Comment_141592

Logos Community,

It is obvious from the posts to this forum that many of us are disappointed regarding the content and quality of the DVD's that we received. Many people have made good suggestions and pointed out real issues. Granted the DVD's could be better, fundamental errors should be fixed. Logos has agreed to fix the errors and post the content where it can be accessed by most users. I am confident they will do right by the people who spent $160 on this product. However, fixing errors takes time and planning. They must plan how to best make the changes, distribute the information, and insure the appropriate people are notified and have access to the updates.

As Logos noted this is a new type of product for them. I spent several years working for and supporting a large software company (not Logos). The complexities of diagnosing problems with different types of computer hardware, and operating systems are daunting. I've been there. I think the average user hasn not been exposed to the complexity of the software development process and will find difficulty truly appreciating the amount time that is required to develop and repair products for extremely diverse computers and operating systems. Even the best software companies in the world find unexpected bugs after release.

The people who write this software are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They should be treated as such. They will be held accountable for their actions in this life and the next. Please point out the errors and work with them not against them.

2 Tim 2:24 "...the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."