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Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:10 AM

Does anyone else feel frustration and disappointment with Logos for Mac?  I am not criticizing Logos' intentions, but intentions do not equal product satisfaction.  

Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise) and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5).  Old unlocks are lost in Logos 4 and some books work in Logos 4 but not Logos 3.  Do you have any answers to these issues other than "Check the Forums" or spend $$$ for Parallels and Windows???

Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product and your decision to to be tight lipped about updates or work progress or just exactly how long is "soon"... You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

Sincerely,  Allen

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:16 AM

Perhaps you could post more details about the specific difficulties you're having?

Many people are able to run the app just fine on a day-to-day basis. If you're encountering bugs, the only way that we can fix them is if you help us track them down.

As for your complaint about old unlocks, nothing should be lost in Logos 4—customer service should be able to sort that out if you call them.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:25 AM

Allen:
Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product and your decision to to be tight lipped about updates or work progress or just exactly how long is "soon"... You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

I'm not sure what's behind this comment. I've had no real complaints about the process, though there are some things I wish would get more attention than others. On the whole, I've been pleased with the progress. The experience with Libronix 1 for Mac was certainly frustrating and I do think Logos made several mistakes with that, but the experience with Logos 4 for Mac has been good.

A stable product does not yet exist, but recent progress should certainly show Logos is moving in the right direction, and every update brings improvements. I can do pretty much all my work in the Mac version (use the Mac version exclusively at home, fire up my virtual machine at the office simply because I have it installed and it gives me access to the PC Beta version) and there aren't many circumstances that cause me to crash. For me, the biggest issue right now is speed. Scrolling is still too slow, and some other parts of the program are not as responsive as I'd like, but these issues will get cleared up as the beta progresses.

What particular issues are you having, and where are you encountering crashes? Post more information about your problems. It may help reveal bugs in the software and will help everyone that uses Logos 4 Mac.

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:47 AM

My Logos books go all the way back to the days of floppies.  And it was customer service who told me that due to license agreements that some things are not available with the newer Logos product...  

Also, I don't know the "many people" who run Logos without bugs, but I do know "many people" do encounter bugs.  Other post in the forums bear this out.  I have read them...

As to my overall question... Does Logos have an answer to that???  

It is insincere to ignore the fact that Logos 3 was abandoned and never finished and Logos 4 is buggy and not finished after a year...   You may ignore this fact, but I do not.

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:53 AM

Also, I was told in the past by customer service that some books work in L4 but not L3 did I misunderstand... or is this correct?

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:54 AM

Allen:
It is insincere to ignore the fact that Logos 3 was abandoned and never finished and Logos 4 is buggy and not finished after a year...   You may ignore this fact, but I do not.

So help make it not buggy. Complaining and demanding information will not make development proceed one day faster. Receiving a timetable from Logos will not make it go faster (and timetables in software development are generally of little value anyway). Providing information about the bugs you encounter *will* help it go faster.

So, which will it be?

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:55 AM

Allen:

Also, I was told in the past by customer service that some books work in L4 but not L3 did I misunderstand... or is this correct?

Some resources in L4 do not work in L3, such as the new Biblical People, Places & Things. As far as the books themselves, as far as I am aware, all books should still open in L3, though it may be more difficult to get them in L3.

Posts 222
LogosEmployee
Mike Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:20 PM


Allen:

Also, I was told in the past by customer service that some books work in L4 but not L3 did I misunderstand... or is this correct?

Which books were they?

Posts 3190
LogosEmployee
Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:32 PM

Allen:

Echoing David's request. Could you specify what exactly it is you are having problems with? What are you attempting to do but are unable to accomplish? 

 

Posts 698
LogosEmployee
Cameron Watters (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:34 PM

Allen:
Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise) and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5).

Any crash we know about, we will fix. Most users who experience crashers post their logs to the forum and we track down the issue and fix it. At least 3 Mac developers and a Mac support tech are in these forums following up with users. You've stated in the past that you typically find forums useless. Our forums aren't typical. If you report a crashing bug, it is almost certain that you will receive a response directly from a developer, often the developer who will fix that bug.

Allen:
Old unlocks are lost in Logos 4 and some books work in Logos 4 but not Logos 3.

Any book that works in Logos 4 on Windows should work in Logos 4 on the Mac. If it doesn't, it's a bug, and we'll fix it. If there are intellectual property licensing issues for a particular resource that prevent it from working in Logos 4, that's a publisher relations issue not a technical one. I suspect that the number of resources affected by such issues is incredibly small. Customer support is going to be your best bet for that issue.

Allen:
Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product and your decision to to be tight lipped about updates or work progress or just exactly how long is "soon"... You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

I'm not sure how much more communicative we could be. Developers post in the forums daily. We post weekly or bi-weekly updates to the software with relevant release notes. We've been incredibly clear about which features will and will not be included in our release (e.g. Handouts will *not* be included in the initial Mac release). Perhaps the only thing we haven't stated publicly is the date we will actually ship the initial release. That isn't a matter of secrecy so much as it is a function of the non-deterministic nature of software development. Having worked in the software industry for 10 years, I have never seen nor experienced a greater level of transparency about a product's development process than I have experienced as a part of the Logos 4 Mac team.

While the current text of http://www.logos.com/mac/disclaimer has been recently updated to reflect the current state of development, the earlier versions included a very direct apology and acknowledgement of mistakes made with Libronix 1.x (the Mac product that precedes Logos 4 Mac). It also contained multiple paragraphs explaining the reasoning behind the decision to abandon Libronix 1.x development and our plans for Logos 4 Mac.

Director of Engineering for Enterprise and Operations

Posts 5474
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:52 PM

Allen:
Does anyone else feel frustration and disappointment with Logos for Mac?

I must admit that when Libronix 1 was abandoned and a new product announced I was a bit cheesed off. However that passed very quickly as the advantages of L4 became apparent very early on in the Alpha stage.

Allen:
Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise) and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5).

Strangely I must have missed Logos 3 for Mac, and I thought that I was paying attention. However on the whole I have been fortunate with the latest Beta's most problems seem to have a work round and the list of problems gets significantly shorter each iteration. I have been doing all my sermon prep with L4Mac for many months now and while I do have the occasional crash it certainly isn't a 'continuous' experience.

Allen:
Old unlocks are lost in Logos 4 and some books work in Logos 4 but not Logos 3.

As I said I have no experience of Logos 3 but I am sure I recall a promise on the web site that assures customers that they will never have to pay for the same resource twice - but I may be wrong about that. i guess that for some of the older purchases it might not be possible to incorporate some of the newest indexing features - but the original book and the original features should still be there for you.

Allen:
Do you have any answers to these issues other than "Check the Forums" or spend $$ for Parallels and Windows???

If, at this stage of the game the second part of your quote is an answer that you have actually received then it is the wrong answer. As far as I am aware everyone who has gone through the simple trouble shooting steps recommended by our developers has been able to get up and running with a workable system. Of course not everyone wants to mess with Alpha and Beta Software - that is a decision for each individual.

Allen:
Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product
...

Many of us have a workable product, stability could and is being improved but L4Mac is no lame duck even in its current state.

Allen:
You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

I think that early on we got an apology for the mistakes made with Libronix 1 and the promise that considerable resources would he deployed on the Mac Product. The forum receives great support from the Development Staff (often over and above the call of duty) and I am pretty satisfied with the updates on product development.

Overall very little of what you complain about is applicable to my experience. However I hope that L4 comes up to the standard you expect fairly quickly. In the meantime you might help some of the other users by following up with specific problems and the associated information to help rectify them.

tootle pip

Mike

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 844
Dewayne Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:57 PM

Allen:
Does anyone else feel frustration and disappointment with Logos for Mac?  I am not criticizing Logos' intentions, but intentions do not equal product satisfaction.

Not even a little bit. I am actually quite excited. They left intentions behind a long time ago.

Allen:
Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise)

Hardly a broken promise. L4Mac is rapidly approaching equality with L4Win as we speak. I would be very disappointed if all I had right now was a product in Mac equal to Libronix.

Allen:
and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5).

Actually it is quite impressive to be where we are right now. Of course there are still bugs. That is why they call it Beta.

Allen:
Old unlocks are lost in Logos 4

There are a number of books no longer available for purchase due to license agreements. But they are still available to those who already have the license. You just can't purchase new licenses.

Allen:
some books work in Logos 4 but not Logos 3.

Yes, and Blue Ray won't play in my DVD player either, but that hardly makes me angry at Sony. The new resources are made for the new technology. They wouldn't work in Logos for Mac either. 

Allen:
Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product

Actually it is quite stable. And bugs are being squashed daily with updates weekly and sometimes more often than that.They have an impressive logging mechanism in place that has proven quite effective.

Allen:
your decision to to be tight lipped about updates or work progress or just exactly how long is "soon"

I think your frustration and others in the past confirms the correct decision to not make empty promises. But rather that "soon", more accurate would be "as soon as is unreasonably possible". These guys have been awesome in answering questions and directly dealing with every problem quickly, both on the clock and off. And I am not sure they are ever actually off the clock. They respond morning, noon, and night and even on the weekends. I really don't know how they do it.

Allen:
You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

This was hashed over many times in the past, and they have more that covered the apology and explanation. I am sure others here will help find those posts and set your mind at ease. We are on the verge of a great product that far exceeds the promise that was made in regards to L3. I hope you will join us in Beta testing and reporting bugs to push this over the hill.

“... every day in which I do not penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the firm ground of the Word of God.”

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:59 PM

Guys... 

I think we are missing the forrest for the trees.  Let's try this....  I have listed my questions numerically.

(1) Was Logos 3 ever completed?  Did Logos stop development of Logos 3 for Mac?

If I remember correctly... If in fact Logos did halt development of L3... I seem to remember the reason was to put all energy into L4 development...???

(2) With no completed L3... Do we after a year of "soon",  have a stable workable L4?  

You may need to read some of the other forums (not my post) about Beta 5 crashes before you answer this one.

 

 

Posts 1861
LogosEmployee
Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 1:06 PM

Dewayne Davis:
And I am not sure they are ever actually off the clock. They respond morning, noon, and night and even on the weekends. I really don't know how they do it.

Subscribe to the forums and have your email delivered to your mobile phone... (*And care a lot about what you do*)

Mobile Development Team Lead

Posts 844
Dewayne Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 1:07 PM

Tom Philpot:
(*And care a lot about what you do*)

You guys make this obvious!   Yes

“... every day in which I do not penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the firm ground of the Word of God.”

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 1:10 PM

Allen:
I think we are missing the forrest for the trees.  Let's try this....  I have listed my questions numerically.

Allen, you know the answers to these questions. Why bother asking them? (though when was "soon" promised for a finished product?) They have nothing to do with where Logos is now. Logos has been open about everything. They have apologized for their failings with the original Mac product. The current Mac product is well under way. Bugs exist, but they have not stopped people from using the current Mac product - except, evidently, you. Now, will you help us and tell us what problems you personally have experienced with the current beta?

Posts 222
LogosEmployee
Mike Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 1:13 PM

Allen:

(2) With no completed L3... Do we after a year of "soon",  have a stable workable L4?  

You may need to read some of the other forums (not my post) about Beta 5 crashes before you answer this one.

Allan, November to August isn't a year.

 

Posts 12
Pierre-David Pfister | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 1:36 PM

Hi Allen,

If you want to run L4 for Windows on your Mac and not spend the $$$ for parallels or vmware, you could try-out the free virtualbox (http://www.virtualbox.org/). Although I haven't been using L4 with virtualbox a lot, I've tried, and it does run. You still need a Windows license though...

-Pierre

 

Posts 10836
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 1:38 PM

Allen:
You may need to read some of the other forums (not my post) about Beta 5 crashes before you answer this one.

What crashes have you personally experienced? Where are your logs? Are you really interested in a finished Mac product, or do you just want to vent? You have repeatedly been asked for specifics, and all we hear are generalities, some of which has no basis in fact.

Posts 116
B. J. Clarke | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 1:44 PM

Allen,

I don't think we are missing the forest for the trees. I think you are missing the answers to your questions for the emotions and frustrations you are feeling right now.

I can understand how frustrating it must be for you. I'm sure you feel like others in the forum don't understand your level of frustration. Therefore, any comment that appears to defend Logos right now just makes you even more frustrated because you feel that your frustrations are being invalidated and ignored.

No one has ever said that Logos is perfect. In fact, they have admitted as much in their apologies. They have been very transparent about what to expect with Alpha and Beta software. Therefore, it is not surprising to read that some are reporting bugs and crashes in the forums. This is to be expected in Alpha and Beta software development.

It is easy to read all of the posts in the forums about bugs and crashes and assume that this is happening to everyone. However, the majority of people are not going to take time out of their busy schedules to send a post announcing that all is well. Occasionally, you will read posts of gratitude, but most folks are not going to post unless they are having a problem.

It would be improper reasoning to go to a jam-packed doctor's office and to assume that the whole world is sick just because the majority of the people in the waiting room are sick. Likewise, the majority of people in the Mac forum room are dealing with a bug, but that doesn't mean the whole L4 Mac family is infected.

Furthermore, if you are physically sick with a bug and you refuse to go to the doctor, it is useless to complain about not getting better. The doctor has to be able to get a close look at you to be able to diagnose your problem and fix it. Likewise, if you've got an L4M bug and you refuse to post your logs for the "doctors" to diagnose and fix your problem, it really does no good to complain about not getting better.

Sometimes, when I am really frustrated, I have to just walk away from what is making me frustrated. I often find that once I've had time to let my emotions cool down, I see things in a different light. Why not take a break from the forum for a bit, and later post some of your specific bugs? You may be surprised at what the "doctors" in the Mac family can do for you.

 

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