Logos Max?
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Why did person 101 post about Logos Max? Because they wanted to make sure the software knew it was truly maxed out on popularity!
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
FWIW, there are no NEW features in Logos Max that are not also in Logos Pro. Right now, the difference between the two packages is the number of books included (500 vs 400), and a bunch of advanced original language features previously included in the Logos 10 full feature set.
So, Mark, according to this, aside from any AI features, Premium, Max or Pro subscriptions wouldn't really get me anything other than a monthly/annual bill and fewer than 100 books that I am not really interested in owning? Since I own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, I'm not sure I can justify any type of subscription.
As an example, I pay a subscription to MS Office 365. The bill pops up every year, but if there are any software changes, I get the "free" upgrades year-round, because I have the subscription. The difference here is that MS Office is merely a vehicle, and does not include any books and resources for the user.
If Logos is interested in moving to Subscription-only software upgrades, they also need to realize that users must also BUY any resources they use (so we can keep them). I am far more interested in paying a reasonable annual subscription if that subscription simply included all features and capabilities. Including "tiered" features goes counter to such a concept. My MS Office subscription include MS Excel. I couldn't imagine having Excel and being prohibited from using Pivot Tables because I need a higher "tier" of subscription. I seldom use Pivot Tables--but they are part of the software!
This latest upgrade is making it more difficult for me to encourage students to use it simply because this will lock students into more expenses that seminary students don't need. But, I MUST use it, because I've invested many thousands of dollars over the years in resources. I'm familiar with how Logos works and frankly, I like how it works. But, every two years, I get ready to crack the wallet in a big way, simply because your "feature sets" are so expensive.
Charge me $69 a year, every year, for the rest of my life, and give me access to all the features of Logos and software upgrades as they come along. Know also, that as resources continue to come out, I will be buying more of them--because that's what scholars do!
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Gregory Wolff said:
So, Mark, according to this, aside from any AI features, Premium, Max or Pro subscriptions wouldn't really get me anything other than a monthly/annual bill and fewer than 100 books that I am not really interested in owning? Since I own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, I'm not sure I can justify any type of subscription.
I believe Mark was talking about current functionality and not referring to new features that will be delivered under the new subscription model
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Gregory Wolff said:
Charge me $69 a year, every year, for the rest of my life, and give me access to all the features of Logos and software upgrades as they come along. Know also, that as resources continue to come out, I will be buying more of them--because that's what scholars do!
You may be able to calculate an average of how much you have been spending on only Logos feature on an annual basis. I am willing to bet that the number will be higher than $69 a year, since you own the full feature set. If you snagged some amazing deals, however, I suppose it's possibly it would average less. I do agree that they should offer a resource-free option to those who don't need it, but IMHO, even ignoring the resources, I feel like the subscription price for L10 owners is quite reasonable. Asking $69 for automatic updates of every feature in my view is less reasonable.
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Do you all think the data sets and the tags in logo max will be the same as the full features set or (gold L10)
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Berechiah said:
Do you all think the data sets and the tags in logo max will be the same as the full features set or (gold L10)
Yes - although over time Logos Max delivers additional functionailty over and above what is in L10 full feature set
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Thanks I appreciate the response. I do love it I hope to use it more
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Aaron Hamilton said:
You may be able to calculate an average of how much you have been spending on only Logos feature on an annual basis. I am willing to bet that the number will be higher than $69 a year, since you own the full feature set. If you snagged some amazing deals, however, I suppose it's possibly it would average less. I do agree that they should offer a resource-free option to those who don't need it, but IMHO, even ignoring the resources, I feel like the subscription price for L10 owners is quite reasonable. Asking $69 for automatic updates of every feature in my view is less reasonable.
Aaron, yes, I get it. The $69 is just a number I threw out there. My point in all this is that the software is the software. Offering a subscription for a “lower tier” software with limited features is, IMO, a bit silly. It’s like shareware programs that offer you a software package that does everything but print. This tiered plan tells me Logos doesn’t expect ANY lower tier user to EVER use original language tools? That’s just not reasonable to me. But if the average person, who very seldom wants to use the OL tools wants to occasionally look into Greek or Hebrew word study, they have to buy a higher tier?!?!? Again, this is why the tiered system falls apart. The software is the software. Logos is Logos BECAUSE of how it works with the OL (and everything else). But the idea of me paying $360/year, and asking students to do the same, and THEN asking them to shell out even more for an original language suite of resources seems to be a bit too much to bear. Yes, the students need to buy the books eventually anyway, but this is far from the point, if anyone, including Logos, wants to actually listen.
I am not opposed to Logos as a subscription platform. But it needs to be highly affordable, considering that the user can ONLY use Logos resources with Logos software. Amazon doesn’t charge a cent for its Kindle software, even though you can only read Kindle books on that platform. Yes, Logos is far more robust than Kindle software. But this is not the point. I started using Logos with version 1.0. Their stance, when they first started out was: “Our software engine is always free! You just pay for the books!” Then they started to charge for the software, and it seemed like each upgrade became more and more unaffordable. Again, I’m not opposed to buying Logos software or paying a subscription. The key is that it must be affordable. Do we want as many Bible students to have access to this software, or just those with deep pockets? The answer to that question will govern the final subscription price.
I’m not trying to be difficult here. I just want the forum to hear an alternative point of view. You are free to disagree if you want.
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The difference between the free software (the base Logos software is, in fact, free!), is the features. Not everyone will use all of the features, nor do they necessarily need them. This gives some who want a more basic functionality but still have some of the higher-level features a way to do that. And from a financial perspective, given the past prices for the feature sets, $69, $99, and even $129 per year is a good deal. As a Faithlife Connect Essentials (No Library - formerly Logos Now) subscriber who has been paying $99.99/year for years, I have saved money given the two-year release cycle and the fact that full feature sets would cost, at a minimum, more than $300, with new features and feature sets coming out every two years. For eligible people, breaking down the cost over a year means you're looking at an incredibly good price point, in my opinion. It's like how my family saves and saves every year to buy a half- or whole-beef in various cuts because, despite being a substantial up-front expense, it's much cheaper than paying store prices in the long run.
When it comes to affordability, when compared to the price points of the feature sets of old, I really think that there is an argument to be made that the costs generally break even, in a way, at least for those eligible for the discounts. However, in all reality, the affordability of Logos is something that has been long discussed and debated, as Logos is not necessarily inexpensive by any means.
Now, I don't know anyone who has paid full price for feature sets, but looking at the sale page right now, https://www.logos.com/feature-upgrades, it has the Starter, Bronze, Silver, and Full feature sets full prices set at $259.99, $549.99, $699.99, and $799.99, respectively. Now, I don't know if those price points have changed much over the years from version to version because of the fact that I have been subscribing to Logos for so long, I haven't looked, but when compared to the prices without the discounts for the Premium, Pro, and Max subscriptions at $149.99, $249.99, and $349.99 a year (https://www.logos.com/early-access/subscriptions), they would still save money in the long run. Now, once again, we can debate affordability and everything, but remember, Faithlife is primarily a business and Logos Bible Software is a product and they don't make billions upon billions of dollars in revenue a year.
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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Gregory Wolff said:
I’m not trying to be difficult here. I just want the forum to hear an alternative point of view. You are free to disagree if you want.
Thank you for sharing your view. I agree with your thought process. You also mentioned in this post the undiscounted price. I agree that the undiscounted price is just too high for most people. My belief is that they feel they must charge so much because of the Legacy Fallback License, which grants users ownership of many features after two years. I feel they should separate the LFL from the main subscription so that they can offer it at a much cheaper price. They could present the LFL for those who want it as an optional add-on.
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Gregory Wolff said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
FWIW, there are no NEW features in Logos Max that are not also in Logos Pro. Right now, the difference between the two packages is the number of books included (500 vs 400), and a bunch of advanced original language features previously included in the Logos 10 full feature set.
So, Mark, according to this, aside from any AI features, Premium, Max or Pro subscriptions wouldn't really get me anything other than a monthly/annual bill and fewer than 100 books that I am not really interested in owning? Since I own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, I'm not sure I can justify any type of subscription.
This is the boat I'm in. I started my 30 day free trial. I've been using Logos for nearly 25 years. I've spent more money than I'd like to admit to, and I have a very large library.
I have always just purchased the newest version/features of Logos each time they came out. Usually because there'd be a sale when it first came out, and the deal would give me BOTH more books and more features.
Now it doesn't seem like I'm getting anything. I don't care for the AI summary - I'd much rather read/skim the text on my own so I can highlight/take notes. I'm not really sure what I think about the AI search.
Other than those two, the only other "feature" I get is the instant dark/light mode, which should have just been considered a bug fix, not a "feature".
For me, there's no difference between the $70 and the $130 plan other than the # of books I get to rent, all books which I'm probably not going to even use.
I already canceled my trial. I was underwhelmed and disappointed. I didn't feel there was really anything to "try". I did a couple AI summarizations. I did a couple AI searches. Just for kicks, I even switched it from dark to light mode without having to restart.
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Donnie said:
Other than those two, the only other "feature" I get is the instant dark/light mode,
For others reading this thread, a minor correction. We do not yet know what will be included in the initial rollout (as opposed to the current early access) but we do know that it also includes a dynamic resource toolbar, revisions to Factbook sections that enhance their usefulness, a revised Help Center, an Insights panel, possibly a Sermon Assistant (I don't remember if it is all AI), BWS enhancements for Latin lemmas . . .
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Honestly, to me the discounted price is acceptable, but if I was a new user I could not afford $249 or $349 a year, and the premium package just wouldn't do what I need it to do, so I would likely look elsewhere for Bible software. Maybe they should always offer the Logos 10 Full Feature Set at the discounted price and that would give the new user the option to invest in it to save money in the long run.
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It's not everyone's cup of tea, but I have found the ability to use natural language queries in Smart Search and the synopsis that is in beta on the web app to be a very helpful launch pad to develop precise searches from. Why? Sometimes, I am not sure how to build my search on a topic. So if I start with a general or fuzzy idea on smart search and digest the synopsis, it produces some great results as a launch pad and speeds up how I structure my precise searches. Those who have wanted more Google like searches should be pleased because I think this technology is just taking off in Biblical Studies. The beauty is, we still have the power of precise searches and can really drill down too.
With this said, if I was going to speculate (and yes this is dangerous), I don't think we know or see everything that Logos intends for v. 11. If you take the refinements of the new dynamic resource toolbar and FactBook, you can start to wonder where the rest of the UI will be headed, new connections to the data, maybe even some new visualisations, new library packages and even expansion packs. Even when it comes to subscriptions, I wonder if some of the Faithlife Connect benefits will be enhanced and transferred across.
I am going to guess that there will be a focus on making the software more user friendly - which will be a delicate line to walk as they tinker with features that power users or academics use (and are willing to pay for the privilege for in resources). A couple of examples of impacts from their beta work on the web app is in-line searches, which I argue are very useful for ease of workflows in textual studies. I am not sure that pushing the emphasis towards the Search Panel is a good move. I also raised questions if losing a number of the types of links supported, including dropping L4 links in favour of 'universal links' is really a step forward, as these are very useful for Logos fitting within larger research ecosystems and contextual computing methodologies. Reading up on Universal Links, it can be a good move, but what will Logos’ implementation be? Logos is the odd one out on my computer at least in terms of how the rest of the Apple ecosystem incorporates this. Time will tell and I digress... and I have enough data points to be dangerous!
Regardless, I wonder if Logos is going to have to come out with a 'big bang' with v. 11 to transition us to this new business model, otherwise there could be a big yawn or worse, a revolt of epic proportions. Speaking to Logos’ history as a Windows computing first entity, does anyone remember Windows ME? Let's hope v. 11 is never compared to it!
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Is there any update to what the expected features of logos max will be?
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G. C. said:
Is there any update to what the expected features of logos max will be?
This for now, I don't know if any projected features have been named.
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MJ. Smith said:Donnie said:
Other than those two, the only other "feature" I get is the instant dark/light mode,
For others reading this thread, a minor correction. We do not yet know what will be included in the initial rollout (as opposed to the current early access) but we do know that it also includes a dynamic resource toolbar, revisions to Factbook sections that enhance their usefulness, a revised Help Center, an Insights panel, possibly a Sermon Assistant (I don't remember if it is all AI), BWS enhancements for Latin lemmas . . .
Is there a place where these are listed?
It seems to me that maybe they should have waited until they had some features ready to go before opening it up. Otherwise, it just seems like you're not getting much.
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There is a chart listed on the following post:
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/224437/1308918.aspx#1308918
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Donnie said:
It seems to me that maybe they should have waited until they had some features ready to go before opening it up. Otherwise, it just seems like you're not getting much.
The beta testers were/are so used to being able to continue to use features when they come out of beta that they would have needed to go into private betas or upset beta testers. Since the betas were open, the early opt-in was necessary.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Donnie said:
Is there a place where these are listed?
If you look at the Release Notes from Logos 32 on you will see the changes targeted for Early Access/Logos Pro and able to be tested by subscribers or users that applied for a temporary license covering the period of testing.
Donnie said:It seems to me that maybe they should have waited until they had some features ready to go before opening it up. Otherwise, it just seems like you're not getting much.
The Early Access was brought in for new/improved features that would otherwise only be available for the new subscription in the Fall. These would have been part of Private Beta Testing for Logos 11 if the major release regime that applied from Logos 4 to Logos 10 was to continue.
The main reason (IMHO) for Early Access was to ease the transition to subscription by providing a discounted price to Logos 10 owners and Connect subscribers. For example, after gaining the discount, is $100/yr (Pro) or $130/yr (for Max) what you would expect to pay for new Features under the old regime?
The dilemma for FL is what non-AI features like the dynamic resource toolbar should be withheld from non-subscribers.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I for one am ready to sign up as soon as Max is out. I was not in the private beta so happy to wait for this next generation
Dave
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Dave Gifford said:
I was not in the private beta
There has been no indication that there is a private beta for this cycle. There is no indication that there is a major new feature release in the immediate future. What I would expect is a major release of resources, perhaps even resources that drive features. Given some of my issues with features not working because of resources not being downloaded, there may even be a move from datasets to resources, decreasing the use of SQLLite.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dave Gifford said:
I was not in the private beta so happy to wait for this next generation
Terminology, A "Private beta" is a sustained period of testing for a major software release available only to selected users (as for Logos 10, Logos 9 in the past). The practice now is for users to apply for a temporary license for new features during the current beta testing cycle (typically over 6 weeks).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Are there any plans in Max to introduce MultI-user licensing for Churches and Bible Study groups?
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Paul J. Narang said:
Are there any plans in Max to introduce MultI-user licensing for Churches and Bible Study groups?
It's something we're actively considering.
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I've started the free trial for Max. At the price I'm getting, I'm willing to wait and watch over the next year, but I do hope some features to differentiate it from Pro & L10 roll out soon.
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At this point i don’t see much reason to choose Max over Pro (I have L10 full resource set and a large library). If someone subscribed to Pro for one year and, at some time during the year, some compelling features were added to Max, would he be able to upgrade during that year?
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Mark,
I purchased both Logos 9 and Logos 10 Ultimate packages, as well Verbum 9 and 10 Ultimate packages, AND the top tier of all the various denominations and other add-ons ("In for a penny.,...").
Two questions:
1. You mentioned in another post there were will be different subscriptions for Logos and Verbum? Will they be identical in functions, or will someone like me need to purchase both subscriptions?
2. Will you still be offering resources packages (like Ultimate) in the future?
Thanks,
Bob Venem
Fargo, ND
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Questions about new features in Max are fair but if someone doesn't own the EEC, I think that probably justifies the difference in price between Pro and Max for the average evangelical pastor, at least with the L10 discount.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Bob Venem said:
1. You mentioned in another post there were will be different subscriptions for Logos and Verbum? Will they be identical in functions, or will someone like me need to purchase both subscriptions?
The books included in the Logos and Verbum subscriptions will differ significantly, but the features will be broadly similar. While there are a few features that are exclusive to Verbum, and a few that are exclusive to Logos, all of those exclusive features are already contained in the Logos 10 and Verbum 10 feature sets. So, if you have those, and you don't mind about the books, there's no need to subscribe to both Logos and Verbum.
Bob Venem said:Will you still be offering resources packages (like Ultimate) in the future?
Yes, but not until next year when the denomination packages come out.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
While there are a few features that are exclusive to Verbum, and a few that are exclusive to Logos, all of those exclusive features are already contained in the Logos 10 and Verbum 10 feature sets.
You are still sidestepping the question of those who have purchased both Logos and Verbum features sets because they NEED both feature sets. Dynamic pricing made that easy in the past.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I have logos max ATM
Will I be able to change to the baptist package when it becomes available? If it's available without losing my 2 years subscription fallback licence.
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Btw I love what you all are doing. What a wonderful program.
Lifetime user Lord Willing
Good job guys 👏
Keep up the good work
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What is ecc?
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What is eec
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What is eec
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Berechiah said:
Will I be able to change to the baptist package when it becomes available?
Baptist package refers to resources not features.
Berechiah said:If it's available without losing my 2 years subscription fallback licence.
The fallback license refers to features not resources. They are independent of each other.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks that's true.
But switching from max normal to max baptist say... When it comes. Can that be done
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Berechiah said:
Thanks that's true.
But switching from max normal to max baptist say... When it comes. Can that be done
Like MJ said, Max has to do with features, not resources or books (except for the temporary licensed books they give with it--those won't change either). When the new libraries come out, you can buy whichever you want, or none at all. If you buy a baptist package, you'll just get those books in addition to what you already have with Max.
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Berechiah said:
Thanks that's true.
But switching from max normal to max baptist say... When it comes. Can that be done
Baptist is a library not a subscription (it only includes books). You add it to your subscription to give you greater breadth and depth. Libraries you buy once and own forever, so it's not possible to swap one library for another (unless you're in the refund period).
After subscribing to Max, you could purchase a library now and an additional Baptist library when that's available. Or wait now and purchase Baptist when it's released.
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I understand thank you
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So so understand...
If I don't go for logos 10 full features set
And go for logos max...
I get to keep logos max features (not the ai side)
So I will essentially own logos 10 full features after 2 years if I decide to keep my subscription for a min or 2 years
Is that right
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So so understand...
If I don't go for logos 10 full features set
And go for logos max...
I get to keep logos max features (not the ai side)
So I will essentially own logos 10 full features after 2 years if I decide to keep my subscription for a min or 2 years
Is that right
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So so understand...
If I don't go for logos 10 full features set
And go for logos max...
I get to keep logos max features (not the ai side)
So I will essentially own logos 10 full features after 2 years if I decide to keep my subscription for a min or 2 years
Is that right
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Berechiah said:
If I don't go for logos 10 full features set
And go for logos max...
I get to keep logos max features (not the ai side)
So I will essentially own logos 10 full features after 2 years if I decide to keep my subscription for a min or 2 years
Is that right
Almost. You will lose some cloud features of Logos 10 too, like auto translate (and print library?). You will also pay more for Max in perpetuity. It is hard for me to imagine any existing user who isn't better off buying their feature set before this sale ends.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Do u really think print library will not be available?
I replied to you on YouTube...
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If you have the Logos 10 Full Feature set, that is included. Logos has said they would not remove any features you already purchased. Print Library is one of them. I certainly hope they keep their word on that. If they do, that also means anyone with Logos 10 Full Feature set should also have access to whatever AI and cloud features it contains. Once it is no longer available for purchase, certain AI and cloud based features will be part of subscription only and will never become permanent again. These are definitely good questions to ask and get clarification on.
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What books are these?
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Chad Katter said:Logos has previously indicated that Logos Max will likely be the highest of three subscription tiers available in the fall, along with Logos Pro and Logos Premium.
That's correct. As part of our gradual expansion of early access, Logos Max and Logos Premium are now available to select customers.
FWIW, there are no NEW features in Logos Max that are not also in Logos Pro. Right now, the difference between the two packages is the number of books included (500 vs 400), and a bunch of advanced original language features previously included in the Logos 10 full feature set.
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Batman said:
What books are these?
Go here...https://www.logos.com/early-access/subscriptions
Scroll to fine "+ Included Books" click on the + sign and compare the 3 licenses included resources.
You can exclude any already owned resources from the list as well as expand/collapse each sub-section.
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Excellent, Thank you!
Roy said:Batman said:What books are these?
Go here...https://www.logos.com/early-access/subscriptions
Scroll to fine "+ Included Books" click on the + sign and compare the 3 licenses included resources.
You can exclude any already owned resources from the list as well as expand/collapse each sub-section.
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