Bad to require credit card for free books/downloads.

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MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

It is disappointing that Logos requires entry of credit card
information in order to download free books
(http://wiki.logos.com/Free_Logos_Books).
This is not necessary as it is possible to download the Libronix DLS
basic software without using a credit card.
Also looking at an example of another company, Thomas Nelson provides
eBible with several free Libronix resources for download and they don’t require
a credit card.

As a consumer it is frustrating when a company wants my
credit card information when they are not going to charge anything to it. Logos does not need my credit card
information unless I purchase something that I need to pay for. It is bad business practice to take credit
card information when it is not needed.
As a consumer it is important to protect credit card information; and
one part of this is not giving out credit card information when it is not
needed. Logos does not need a credit
card in order to provide free downloads.

This practice is unethical and should be illegal. I will be reporting a complaint to the Better Business Bureau. Please reconsider and provide the “Free
Books” without requiring credit card details. Michael B.

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Comments

Mitch Davis

Michael,

If someone had a complaint against you (a person or, as in this case, a company) would you prefer they speak to you before going elsewhere to "complain"? I'd like to think you'd speak to someone at Logos to - at the very least - hear their explanation. It seems like an ethical courtesy on your part. If you're not satisfied with their answer then you'd at least have made an effort before going to the BBB.

Mitch

MJ. Smith

Michael, welcome to the Logos forums where you may ask and answer questions regarding the use of Logos software. The participants are fellow users with a handful of exceptions for tracking software bugs etc. If you have complaints about the business practices of Logos, it is more effective to send them to the company rather than posting on the user forums.

Michael B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227413#Comment_227413

Mitch,

I was just at the BBB site and decided against filing a complaint. Was about to edit my original post but since you already responded decided to leave it so people knew what you were talking about. Ok, so I repent of the BBB thing, at least for now. Also I am in email contact with Logos about this but also wanted to put it on the forum because figured others have the same complaint and maybe more voices will help Logos reconsider.

Michael B.

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227419#Comment_227419

Michael,

Your reaction is VERY MUCH appreciated and serves as a wonderful example to all.

Have a blessed night,
Mitch

Matthew C Jones

It is bad business practice to take credit
card information when it is not needed

I do not work for Logos so my post is just my own musings.

I am aware of several reasons Logos may need a credit card to complete a free transaction. It could be related to the transaction software. It could be related to licensing issues of the free book. (Many contracts start off with "for value received" because in theory, an exchange must take place to create a contract.) It could be related to future marketing strategies. Like I said, I have no idea why, but it is not unethical or illegal. It is a common practice. (Even Amazon does it for free transactions.)

You may be able to call Customer Service and request the free downloads be placed in your account without using a credit card. I know a PayPal card or bank debit card will also do. Cheers.

Michael B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227427#Comment_227427

Thank you Matthew for suggesting I ask Customer Service to put the downloads in my account. Unfortunately they responded in order to get the free books offered by Logos I have to enter a credit card. I have no intention of giving Logos my credit card number for something that is free. This damages trust between Logos and me, the customer, making me reluctant to do any business with them in the future. I am happy to continue using the resources that I already have in Libronix and will continue to use another program for my main bible study.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228634#Comment_228634

Unfortunately they responded in order to get the free books offered by Logos I have to enter a credit card. I have no intention of giving Logos my credit card number for something that is free.

I'm sorry they could not accommodate your needs. I have one more idea that might work, but I am not sure:

Would it be possible to buy one of those "pre-paid VISA cash cards?" I don't know how little you can load on it but your exposure to unauthorized charges would be limited to whatever amount you put on it.

It is just an idea.

It would be really nice if Logos would set up some kind of savings account where we could deposit funds by check to cover upcoming Pre-Pubs and other product purchases. It has been suggested before.

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228634#Comment_228634

This damages trust between Logos and me, the customer, making me reluctant to do any business with them in the future.

I must confess that this puzzles me. You won't give them CC info, which implies you do not have an account already and have not made purchases so you are not a customer. The Libronix resources you already have were free, received from Thomas Nelson. The resources you were trying to get from Logos were free resources. At what point might you become a paying customer? And if you were to purchase resources, that would require entering CC info. If you would be willing to trust Logos with your info then, why not now?

From where I stand there is nothing questionable or unethical about Logos asking for CC info. It's a simple way to verify that the person registering is, in fact, a person, and it helps to confirm the identity of the person opening the account. To say you don't like it is fine. To accuse Logos of wrongdoing is a bit over the top. To say this threatens future business is a bit meaningless when there's no indication of business to begin with.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228652#Comment_228652

I must confess that this puzzles me.

Chris, I have learned through extensive discussion in other threads about privacy issues that I don't need to understand why others wish to do things their particular way. You made a few good points for Michael but I am sure Michael has his own reasons. I don't need to know them and will be happy to remain confused and in the dark on the matter. [H]

I was only trying to meet his needs in any way I can.

MJD

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228652#Comment_228652

Sorry, but I don't see why you are angry? I don't agree with you, and if you don't want to give them your credit card info, fine they won't give you the downloads....

Mike

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228658#Comment_228658

I don't see why you are angry?

I don't think he is angry now, just frustrated. There must be an underlying structural aspect of the download delivery software that requires a credit card to work. It would probably take human intervention from the highest levels to override the current procedure. I think my proposed VISA cash card method would be the best solution.

Michael B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228812#Comment_228812

Matthew, thank you for responding to others in such a nice
way. Interesting idea, pre-paid visa
card. Might have to look into that; but
I have kind of given up on the whole free download from Logos.

Chris, I am a customer in that I have purchased the IVP
Reference Library which runs on Libronix.
I purchased this in a bookstore, not online. The main reason I was trying to download the
free resources was to get the Lexham bible so I would have a modern version
alongside the AV that came with the CD I purchased. Since it was free I thought I might as well
download it; and the other free things – why not, they are free. Maybe frustration followed because I (incorrectly)
assumed that if these books were free I would be able to freely download them. If Logos was nice to me it is not inconceivable
that I would purchase something from them in the future and would probably
trust them with my credit card information.
Giving a credit card when paying for something is reasonable. However, giving credit card information when
not paying for something is a bad idea.

Obviously not everyone agrees that requiring credit card
information for a free download is bad. And
I understand the possibility Logos may be under some contractual agreement with
publishers or that they find credit cards a good way to verify identity. However, I believe if Logos wanted to they
could offer free resources without requiring a credit card. That they don’t, indicates to me they are
more business focused than customer focused.
That turns this customer off and I am happy to take my paying business
elsewhere. I hope this doesn’t seem like
a toddler tantrum.

I remain disappointed with Logos.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/229808#Comment_229808

Michael,

One last thought, you could set up an account with Logos tonight, enter a credit card and download the free books. After you have downloaded the books, you could then delete your credit card info and nobody would have that information.

I have talked to the accounting department in the past about the credit card info stored on their computers. They told me they don't have access to your complete card information because of security reasons, all they can see are what you can see if you pull up your account information, the last 4 digits of the card.

Otto S. Carroll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/229901#Comment_229901

A quick solution for this dilemma is for Logos to charge him $1 for the free resource, followed by an electronic $1 rebate!!! [^o)]

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/229808#Comment_229808

I hope this doesn’t seem like a toddler tantrum.

Nah, it's just not the way I see it - that's all. I understand you see it differently and only hope that you don't attribute evil motives to logos when none are present. (Not saying that you have! Just posting that for posterity when someone else who feels as you do comes along and reads this thread.)

HJ. van der Wal

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228641#Comment_228641

Is there any chance that Logos will allow us to use alternative methods of payment, such as PayPal or iDEAL?

Although I personally don't mind Logos requiring credit card information, it is an obstacle when I want to encourage other people to use Logos. In the Netherlands only about 55% of all consumers have a credit card, and I reckon that among students this percentage will be much lower. Most Dutch consumers don't use their credit card very often and would probably be just as hesitant as Michael to enter their cc information.

Has anyone actually tried the method Matthew suggested, i.e. the pre-paid VISA cash cards? I like the suggestion. Thanks, Matthew!

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/230016#Comment_230016

Is there any chance that Logos will allow us to use alternative methods of payment, such as PayPal or iDEAL?

I hope so! But not yet, not really. A while Back, Paypal offered a feature whereby you could create a credit card# for single use transactions or repeated transactions - I did that for as long as it lasted. Finally Paypal dropped that for whatevver reasons. My solution has been to secure the paypal debit card and use that as my primary Logos card.

You might look into that.

Smithereens

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/230019#Comment_230019

Michael,

Gonna jump in here quickly to thank you (and everyone else who's posted) for the feedback!

Just want to let you know that the cc requirement is really a back-end, software issue, not something we intentionally impose on our customers. It's something we're looking at but, at the moment, have been unable to fix. Please know the info is safe, never used without permission, etc.

Again, thanks for the feedback! It's always great to hear our customers' perspectives...something we genuinely need in order to keep improving our software and user experience, so people can get back to the ever-important Bible studying.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/229901#Comment_229901

I have talked to the accounting department in the past about the credit card info stored on their computers. They told me they don't have access to your complete card information because of security reasons, all they can see are what you can see if you pull up your account information, the last 4 digits of the card.

That is all true and correct. Anytime I deal with the human side of sales I have to provide the missing info.

For a few years I have used a PayPal card and other bank debit cards for online transactions. I just keep the account balances at a dollar or two and only move funds into it immediately before I use the card. I have been a victim of check forgeries on two occasions but never identity theft or unauthorized card charges.

Logos offers enough free downloads each year to justify getting a VISA cash card or dedicated debit card. I have downloaded a John Piper book, a John MacArthur book, several other free books and lots of very cheap ones. I would not want to miss out on them just because I had no credit card.

Just posting that for posterity

With 4600+ posts, you have a lot of posterity Thomas. [6]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/230016#Comment_230016

duplicated

Jacob Hantla

Welcome to the forum. I would hope that you wait for some discussion or response from Logos (feel free to send the CEO an email at bob@logos.com) prior to reporting them to the BBB, especially as they don't charge you for the free book. This is no different than Apple's practice with iTunes as far as I know

Michael B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/229974#Comment_229974

I understand you see it differently and only hope that you don't attribute evil motives to logos when none are present.

A safe assumption is that Logos does not have evil
intentions, and I believe they are using up-to-date standards for protecting customer
credit card information. It is actually
quite unreliable to speculate on motives.
With that disclaimer in mind, it feels like in this instance of
requiring credit cards for free offers they are more concerned with the
business than the customer. Large organizations
tend to look at things in terms of systems rather than individuals – in some
ways this is necessary.

Anyway, it seems to me that providing free book downloads
without requiring credit card information would be a good business
decision. Making customers happy should
pay off in the long run. Even if it hurt
their bottom line I still think Logos should not require payment information
for something they are giving away for free.

At a gut level, it still feels wrong for a business to take
credit card information when they aren’t charging anything. At risk of exaggeration, it seems
unethical. Think of a local store
offering a free sample of something but requiring you giving them credit card
information first; this would seem a little strange wouldn’t it?

I appreciate the creative workarounds that have been
offered. Good out of the box
thinking. I probably won’t spend the
time and effort to try any of them; I shouldn’t have to. To me it comes down to principle. If Logos says I have to give credit card
information for free downloads; well my response is no thank you.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/231806#Comment_231806

At a gut level, it still feels wrong for a business to take
credit card information when they aren’t charging anything. At risk of exaggeration, it seems
unethical. Think of a local store
offering a free sample of something but requiring you giving them credit card
information first; this would seem a little strange wouldn’t it?

Michael, I really don't think there are any wrong motives or bad business decisions involved here. It seems instead like an unintended design flaw in the ordering system. I think Logos employee Stephen Smith's response best addresses your concerns (he was the one with the blue Logos logo under his picture):

Just want to let you know that the cc
requirement is really a back-end, software issue, not something we
intentionally impose on our customers. It's something we're looking at
but, at the moment, have been unable to fix

See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/30699/230029.aspx#230029 for context.

It seems their ordering/download system was designed without thinking about the implications of the fact that they offer some free resources, and it's a complicated thing to fix it so that it would go through a different path when a user orders something free than when they order something they have to pay for. For now it just does all the same stuff in both cases. It sounds like they do wish they could fix that but haven't been able to at the moment.

True, you've pointed out a way in which this issue might cause some users to
walk away completely. Evidently they aren't worried enough about what that could cost them in lost business (seems rather minuscule to me, in the grand scheme of things) to expend the development costs to fix this issue. You say you don't want to take the time to try any of the workarounds. You've at least taken the time and effort to keep coming back
to check this thread on the forum, so something tells me you're
intrigued enough by Logos to hope they will fix this issue someday. And maybe they will. (Too bad they didn't notice the problem before they did their major website overhaul last year, as that would have been the time to fix it.)

Maybe if you poke around on the website some more, one of the resources that aren't free will tempt you and you'll end up giving your credit card info anyway, and then the fact that the free resources currently require credit card info too will be a moot point. [:)]

Michael B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/231814#Comment_231814

Logos is still requiring credit card information for free books. Makes me sad.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/324548#Comment_324548

Logos is still requiring credit card information for free books. Makes me sad.

Hi there Michael,

(Matthew, here.)

There have been so many free books from Logos and Vyrso lately that I would strongly recommend you get one of those VISA "cash cards"

Logos just started a "Free-Book-of-the-Month" page over here: http://www.logos.com/free-book-of-the-month

The January selection is a doosey! see my post here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/43485/323591.aspx#323591

I just hate for you to miss out. I don't think the CC requirement is going to change.

Another note: I trust Logos more than I trust my utility companies, PayPal or restaurants. I use my bank card there so why not here?

Good to hear from you.

Danny Baskin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/324560#Comment_324560

I'm just happy to get all that free stuff![:P]

Michael B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/324659#Comment_324659

My resistance finally broke down and I used a "virtual" credit
card number and limited the maximum amount to $1. A virtual credit card
number is a temporary number that is tied to my regular card but has its own
number and expiration date. Then I went ahead and downloaded some of the
free resources.

I still believe it is bad to require credit card information for something
that is free. Thanks to everybody for participating in this discussion.

Chris Montes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/230084#Comment_230084

I have an iTunes account but do not have a credit card associated with it and am able to download free apps all the time. When I do want to buy something I just buy and iTunes card and validate it.

Bruce Brewer

Logos makes excuses like, "it's okay Bruce we're not going to charge you." or "Logos says, "other sites do it to for their free stuff."

This is pure poppycock. Here is a company (Logos) who makes their living selling computer stuff and claims to be Christian to boot. But they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

Why do they refuse? Slothfulness comes to mind. If they are to continue to maintain they position as a top software company, then they must be on the forefront and not request information on a "free" purchase which is not necessary. I will gladly give my credit card info for a cash purchase, but I will never "buy" a "free" book that requires a credit card.

Logos has no excuse, other than be like the world in all the bad ways, for making this requirement mandatory.

Okay, now Logos will respond with more excuses why they won't modify their program. Excuses, excuses, excuses.....

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566038#Comment_566038

Hi Bruce - and welcome to the forums

The last I heard Logos are planning to change this - see http://community.logos.com/forums/p/68775/479627.aspx#479627 for a response from one of their people in April last year.

In that post he speculated it would be done before the end of 2013 - which didn't happen - but the intent was there.

Graham

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566038#Comment_566038

I do not understand what the problem is here.

Logos gives away free stuff to encourage new customers to jump on board and in the future becoming paying customers, also to reward past customers. As such it makes perfect sense to ask Pele taking advantage of free stuff to become registered to the extent that they are able to make purchases in the future, I.e. to register a card.

If people do not want to register a card then do not do so but there is nothing deceptive about requiring you to do so, if you do not want to then do not take the book.

The need to register a card appears to be accidental and historic but I see no reason why they should change it.

People should really avoid playing the Christian card on this one, if anything it shows greed on their part if they get worked up about it.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/445873#Comment_445873

I have an iTunes account but do not have a credit card associated with it and am able to download free apps all the time. When I do want to buy something I just buy and iTunes card and validate it.

My daughter was required to enter a credit card to get an Apple ID for her iPhone. She has a pre-paid iPhone so technically the credit card will never be charged yet Apple requires it. (No different than Logos.)

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566054#Comment_566054

Regardless of whether the Logos idea is good or bad (Logos' answers indeed being pure poppycock whatever that is), whenever I download an app that wants a signin (not even a CC), it's good bye. Takes all of 2 seconds. Don't waste my time.

So my theory is that Logos is reluctant to get too many more customers. Just minutes later, they jump on the forum and start theological arguments (without a 5-star review too).

An app that offers 'free' but wants my credit card?? Sure thing.

Not in this day and time. Welcome to Target.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566056#Comment_566056

Welcome to Target.

Logos has 2 of my credit card numbers. In 5 years time I have never had an unauthorized charge. On the other hand, I have had two other ccard numbers stolen in the last 5 months. (Target and a Chinese restaurant)

I trust Logos with my card #. It is everybody else I don't trust.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566038#Comment_566038

they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

To the best of my knowledge Logos has never "refused" to do this. They've said they have higher priorities, but they'll get to it in time.

Logos was, until very recently, a very small company and needed all their few developers to work on Logos itself, so, as I understand it, they bought all their administrative, financial, forum, etc software from elsewhere. Hence it was what it was, and just 'adding a modification' may not be as easy as you think.

For one thing they may not have the legal right to modify bought software.

For another, multiple systems tie into each other, and modifying one may require first modifying others. I have a faint memory of a post somewhere where Logos states that if they simply remove the credit card requirement, they won't know how many copies of that book they 'sold', and, naturally, the publisher requires them to be able to account for that. So they can't remove the requirement until they have another system in place that counts exactly how many copies they distribute of each book. And coding that probably requires first fixing something else. And so on.

Thirdly, this isn't exactly the only thing we and/or they have wanted changed with their administrative and financial software, and it doesn't make sense to waste time and money on superficial modifications if your real intention is to rebuild the whole framework from the bottom up, as it is my impression that it is. We have already seen major results from this rebuild: the website now grays out items that we own, it gives us dynamic pricing, and it keeps track of our credits and lets us apply them even on prepubs. Those improvements are far more important than the one you ask for.

Fourthly, coding costs money, and that money is payed by me and others who buy our resources. Why would I want to pay for you not to have to enter your card number?

Personally, I am constantly surprised over the insistence on this change, and constantly shocked over the rudeness with which it is presented. I want Logos to spend their time and money on fixing what I have already payed for, not on placating people who don't want to pay. If someone offers you a free book, take it and be grateful, or leave it and move on. Insulting and making false accusations against someone who tries to be kind to you isn't very nice.

I'm sorry, but I'm just getting very tired of posts like this, that can't even be civil. To the point that I'm beginning to feel like urging Logos never to change this...

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566038#Comment_566038

Logos makes excuses like, "it's okay Bruce we're not going to charge you." or "Logos says, "other sites do it to for their free stuff."

This is pure poppycock. Here is a company (Logos) who makes their living selling computer stuff and claims to be Christian to boot. But they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

Why do they refuse? Slothfulness comes to mind. If they are to continue to maintain they position as a top software company, then they must be on the forefront and not request information on a "free" purchase which is not necessary. I will gladly give my credit card info for a cash purchase, but I will never "buy" a "free" book that requires a credit card.

Logos has no excuse, other than be like the world in all the bad ways, for making this requirement mandatory.

Okay, now Logos will respond with more excuses why they won't modify their program. Excuses, excuses, excuses.....

At the risk of breaking forum rules here, I'm going to point something out. I don't do this to be mean - yet it may come across as such. My first thought when people start making accusations is that they can recognize this in others, because it is a path they themselves are walking. You accuse Logos of a few things right off the bat: Slothfulness, worldliness and some amount of presumed greed. Finally you insinuate some level of deceipt. Many of us have talked to/met/know the owners of this company, and saying such things will win you no friends here for one, and for two anyone who knows them knows different. Does marketing get out of hand sometimes? Sure. Do they make it right when it happens? Absolutely. They gave away 40k USD of software a while back over a mistake they had made (back in august I think).

So in short: 1. Check your heart. 2. you won't be convincing many if any with attacks like that, and 3. "let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;" ( james 1:19B). I intend all this to come from a prov 27:6 perspective as I am presuming you are a brother in Christ.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

In response to the required CC for free resources issue. When I 1st began using Logos, I was also a bit reluctant to enter this information for a company and site that was little known to me, I searched around and did not find any bad reports on the company, I asked some people if they knew anything about Logos, and I thought this through for several days. What I eventually did (still reluctant to enter CC information) was to go out and get one of those Visa gift cards that was a real credit card with limited money on it (a debit card). I used that for several months before using my regular card, and have never experienced a problem where I was charged for a free resource or charged an incorrect amount for anything else.

With all of this said (and tested), I can truly say that Logos is a very reputable company. My statement is not speculation, but fact, as I have personally tested this myself several years ago.

Also, I will add that this practice is not exclusive to Logos. There are other sites/companies that require the same, and the choice is either to accept the practice or move on. Some I do accept, and some I don't accept.

If what Logos offers is valuable to you, and you are not sure whether to trust them or not, just put them through your own test.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566077#Comment_566077

When we drive in Phoenix, we typically move along at 70mph or so in heavy traffic. We've never had any problem before in Phoenix. Looks ok. Had a problem in Dallas and watched a massive pileup in the rear-view mirror.

When we first moved here, we tested out driving really fast in Phoenix. Didn't crash. So I think we're ok.

Although I think most of the arguments here are specious (you'd really have to know the innards at Logos, the card processor, etc), I WILL say, Logos lets you MANAGE your CC.

I really cringe on both local businesses and internet sites that hold on to your information, and there's no way you can 'get it back'.

Periocally I've put in a dummy cc on my account when I thought the card might have problems (not Logos).

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566109#Comment_566109

Although I think most of the arguments here are specious

OK. Point well taken.

I do take extra measures to limit my exposure on my credit cards. There is only a certain amount that can be charged without my direct intervention for higher charges.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566066#Comment_566066

Peace to all! fgh, Thank You Indeed for an extremely accurate and well-written post which is most-appreciated by me Indeed!

*smile*

they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

To the best of my knowledge Logos has never "refused" to do this. They've said they have higher priorities, but they'll get to it in time.

Logos was, until very recently, a very small company and needed all their few developers to work on Logos itself, so, as I understand it, they bought all their administrative, financial, forum, etc software from elsewhere. Hence it was what it was, and just 'adding a modification' may not be as easy as you think.

For one thing they may not have the legal right to modify bought software.

For another, multiple systems tie into each other, and modifying one may require first modifying others. I have a faint memory of a post somewhere where Logos states that if they simply remove the credit card requirement, they won't know how many copies of that book they 'sold', and, naturally, the publisher requires them to be able to account for that. So they can't remove the requirement until they have another system in place that counts exactly how many copies they distribute of each book. And coding that probably requires first fixing something else. And so on.

Thirdly, this isn't exactly the only thing we and/or they have wanted changed with their administrative and financial software, and it doesn't make sense to waste time and money on superficial modifications if your real intention is to rebuild the whole framework from the bottom up, as it is my impression that it is. We have already seen major results from this rebuild: the website now grays out items that we own, it gives us dynamic pricing, and it keeps track of our credits and lets us apply them even on prepubs. Those improvements are far more important than the one you ask for.

Fourthly, coding costs money, and that money is payed by me and others who buy our resources. Why would I want to pay for you not to have to enter your card number?

Personally, I am constantly surprised over the insistence on this change, and constantly shocked over the rudeness with which it is presented. I want Logos to spend their time and money on fixing what I have already payed for, not on placating people who don't want to pay. If someone offers you a free book, take it and be grateful, or leave it and move on. Insulting and making false accusations against someone who tries to be kind to you isn't very nice.

I'm sorry, but I'm just getting very tired of posts like this, that can't even be civil. To the point that I'm beginning to feel like urging Logos never to change this...

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566110#Comment_566110

OK, ST. I'll play (be) dumb. How are you doing that. It's a good idea. We bought a handmade futon in a small villiage near Mt Fuji and used our US cc. Minutes later (literally) our phone rang in Sedona. But that was the card company's software.

I know the cc's have exposure limits but I'd prefer to avoid the issue, given the efficient markets in Nigeria.

Luuk Dondorp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/230016#Comment_230016

Is there any chance that Logos will allow us to use alternative methods of payment, such as PayPal or iDEAL?

iDEAL is dutch. Logos can allow dutch customers to use iDEAL as a payment method. But I assume there are not enough dutch Logos customers to justify the costs to do that.

And for what it is worth: personal info is known on the internet in so many ways due to the social media and so on. You can't hide..the only way is to trash all your computers and use the old pen and paper methods again. And even than there are so many databases....

I trust Logos fully for using my credit card in a good stewardship-like manner.

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566038#Comment_566038

Logos makes excuses like, "it's okay Bruce we're not going to charge you." or "Logos says, "other sites do it to for their free stuff."

This is pure poppycock. Here is a company (Logos) who makes their living selling computer stuff and claims to be Christian to boot. But they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

Why do they refuse? Slothfulness comes to mind. If they are to continue to maintain they position as a top software company, then they must be on the forefront and not request information on a "free" purchase which is not necessary. I will gladly give my credit card info for a cash purchase, but I will never "buy" a "free" book that requires a credit card.

Logos has no excuse, other than be like the world in all the bad ways, for making this requirement mandatory.

Okay, now Logos will respond with more excuses why they won't modify their program. Excuses, excuses, excuses.....

Bruce, I'm sorry you're frustrated. But this is simply not a reflection of our feelings on the matter. Our commerce system was built to require a credit card. Ever since we've starting do more free transactions, we've wanted to remove the credit card requirement to make it easier for new folks. The only reason we haven't yet is that it's a non-trivial amount of work to do, and we've had to prioritize other things higher. As much as we want to do this, we've prioritized things that serve our paying customers and help us meet our business goals. It's not that we don't care to fix this; it's that time and resources are limited, and we have to be wise stewards and work on the right things first.

All that said, we're currently working on an overhaul of our shopping cart and checkout process, and dropping the credit card requirement is one of the changes that we hope to roll out—hopefully in the next month or two.

I'm sorry it's taken so long for us to get to this. It certainly wasn't for lack of desire. I know it's been a pain point for a number of people, which we hope to solve very soon. Thanks for your patience.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566159#Comment_566159

https://www.logos.com/support/lbs/vocabularylists#download

one of the changes that we hope to roll out—hopefully in the next month or two.

<sarcasm="on"> Well that forecast is going to come back to bite you. </sarcasm> :-)

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566134#Comment_566134

OK, ST. I'll play (be) dumb. How are you doing that. It's a good idea.

I have set up an extra bank account with a VISA debit card. I was given the option to reject all charges that would result in an overdraft. Whenever I am about to make a purchase I transfer money into that account. I handle all my Logos Pre-Pubs with just such an account.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/567115#Comment_567115

Smart.

I was reading an article today about prepaid cards becoming 'the thing' often for the same reason. I think I might do something similar that you describe.

Thanks!

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566110#Comment_566110

Quick solution. Enter the card, purcahse free book, then delete the card.

That is what I did for the first pre-publications/purchases that I got. Decided that the company was trust worthy, and have not been let down.

For most maybe all other companies, if I have to enter a card a card for something that is free, I simply decline.

I trust Logos.

Jeff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566159#Comment_566159

I'm sorry, Phil, I agree that is a load of poppycock. I know you are probably just a customer service rep that has to answer questions and you have nothing to do with the site development and such, but your comment, "The only reason we haven't yet is that it's a non-trivial amount of work to do," is just not correct. As a web designer/developer I have built many e-commerce sites and it is not difficult to add a bypass for the credit card. I have done it many times. It is a marketing ploy. Having your credit card saved on the website makes it easier for people to purchase books that they might not have purchased other wise. It's about the $$ and their bottom line.

I used to like Logos Bible. Then I was required to pay to upgrade to 4 and lost several of my books and features. Now with this credit card nonsense I might go elsewhere. Wordsearch Bible doesn't make you put in a credit card for free stuff. This all just makes me sad. I understand that a company has to make money to survive, but don't make us risk out credit cards to do it. I refuse to put my card out there any more than I have to. It's just not smart. If I were purchasing a product then fine, it is my decision to put my card number out there, but I am not putting it out there for free stuff.

I wasn't going to post anything but that live I quoted earlier just frustrated me. Just not true. Sorry for my out burst.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/566066#Comment_566066

they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

To the best of my knowledge Logos has never "refused" to do this. They've said they have higher priorities, but they'll get to it in time.

Logos was, until very recently, a very small company and needed all their few developers to work on Logos itself, so, as I understand it, they bought all their administrative, financial, forum, etc software from elsewhere. Hence it was what it was, and just 'adding a modification' may not be as easy as you think.

For one thing they may not have the legal right to modify bought software.

For another, multiple systems tie into each other, and modifying one may require first modifying others. I have a faint memory of a post somewhere where Logos states that if they simply remove the credit card requirement, they won't know how many copies of that book they 'sold', and, naturally, the publisher requires them to be able to account for that. So they can't remove the requirement until they have another system in place that counts exactly how many copies they distribute of each book. And coding that probably requires first fixing something else. And so on.

Thirdly, this isn't exactly the only thing we and/or they have wanted changed with their administrative and financial software, and it doesn't make sense to waste time and money on superficial modifications if your real intention is to rebuild the whole framework from the bottom up, as it is my impression that it is. We have already seen major results from this rebuild: the website now grays out items that we own, it gives us dynamic pricing, and it keeps track of our credits and lets us apply them even on prepubs. Those improvements are far more important than the one you ask for.

Fourthly, coding costs money, and that money is payed by me and others who buy our resources. Why would I want to pay for you not to have to enter your card number?

Personally, I am constantly surprised over the insistence on this change, and constantly shocked over the rudeness with which it is presented. I want Logos to spend their time and money on fixing what I have already payed for, not on placating people who don't want to pay. If someone offers you a free book, take it and be grateful, or leave it and move on. Insulting and making false accusations against someone who tries to be kind to you isn't very nice.

I'm sorry, but I'm just getting very tired of posts like this, that can't even be civil. To the point that I'm beginning to feel like urging Logos never to change this...

yes yes yes. This is my sentiment exactly. Seems like hardly a week goes by where this question doesn't come up - and frequently by an individual with 1 or 2 posts. Their approach is bellicose (often as not) and their words loaded with venom.

Its not that I can't relate to wanting my card information safe... I do. I've had bad experiences with Bank of America, with Sprint, Cingular wireless, and a few others... Regions bank took Sprint to task, and recovered the 600$ they withdrew from my account (billed me thrice). Visa sorted Cingular, and I closed my account at Bank of America (it took a surprising six months before everything was really truly closed). So I can understand ones reluctance to give out ones credit card number.

That said, they have had my information for 3 years now, and I've not yet had any glitches. Which is more than I can say for iTunes.

C.S. Lewis once said (Speaking of atheists) that "there is enough light for those who desire to see, and enough darkness for those of a contrary disposition. I think that applies anytime trust is required. Those who will will, and those who wont name call, and post angry rants on forums. Is the free book really worth the emotional investment it took you to write out that post? Really?

Jeff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577911#Comment_577911

OK, now I feel guilty for my venting. I do like Logos Bible. IT has many great things going for it. Great search tools and I really like the android version. I don't mean to make it sound like I am accusing Logos of lying, I'm not. I just know website development and marketing. I've been on that side of it.

In the near future I will be going into missions. I will really be glad when I can open up my computer, tablet or phone and have all of those resources available to me without having lug around a library of books. For this I am very thankful to Logos Bible. I remember doing sermon prep before I go Logos. Hours spent just looking though books for one thing that I can now do in a matter seconds with Logos. It really is a great tool.

Again sorry about the venting.