RECOMMENDATION: FL needs to fix links to discontinued resources

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Oct 17 2015 1:17 PM

See this thread NT331 missing resource: Encountering the Book of Romans by Moo along with my recommendation to fix the problem near the end of page 1. Thank you for keeping links to discontinued resources in the course material, but the purchase this resource should lead to a webpage that clearly explains the situation.

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2015 2:14 PM

This is probably true for those who do not own a resource, but they should also point to the resource for those who purchased the resource before it was discontinued.  This leaves four options:

  1. links to owned resources
  2. links to unowned resources that can be purchased
  3. links to an error message for resources that have never been available via logos (these need to be active links that can be altered once a resource becomes available in the future).
  4. links to an error message for resources that have been discontinued (these need to be active links that can be altered once a resource becomes available again in the future).

Am I missing any options?

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 3:03 AM

Floyd Johnson:
3. links to an error message for resources that have never been available via logos (these need to be active links that can be altered once a resource becomes available in the future).

Don't know if any of these exist, but I have done few Mobile Ed courses.

Floyd Johnson:
4. links to an error message for resources that have been discontinued (these need to be active links that can be altered once a resource becomes available again in the future).

The situation that prompted this thread was links to an original version of Encountering the Book of Romans and a second link to the current version in NT-331. The link for the original version appeared first in the collateral reading list and led to a generic error message, giving the impression that it was a broken link. It needs to be an active link to an explanation for those who do not own the original edition. Just below the problem link is an active link to the current edition with the option to purchase message for those who do not own the resource.

In answer to your question: No I don't think you have not missed anything.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 8:53 AM

Jack Caviness:
Thank you for keeping links to discontinued resources in the course material,

I agree with this, but I also think it might be helpful to have a couple of rules for MobileEd:

  1. Don't create links to products that have already been withdrawn at the time of producing the course, unless they're absolutely vital.
  2. If a first edition is replaced by a second edition after the course has been written, update the material to also include links to the second edition.

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John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 10:55 AM

Mark Barnes:

Jack Caviness:
Thank you for keeping links to discontinued resources in the course material,

  1. If a first edition is replaced by a second edition after the course has been written, update the material to also include links to the second edition.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 12:24 PM

Mark Barnes:
If a first edition is replaced by a second edition after the course has been written, update the material to also include links to the second edition.

I purchased NT-331 on October 2, 2015. My copy of the course includes links to both the first edition and to the revised edition. The problems are that the link to the no-longer available first edition is first listed link. Also clicking this link eventually leads to an error webpage rather than to one explaining the situation. Hopefully, someone from Fl will respond early next week.

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Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 12:40 PM

This course does not contain a first and second edition to Encountering the Book of Romans by Moo.  The only difference between the two books by Moo is this, the original one published by Logos contained the pictures that are in the hardback copy of the book, the other copy in Logos (the one they sell now) has no pictures. 

I cannot find the discussion on this in the forums, but it was discussed soon after this course first came out.  The course only had links to the version without the pictures and they updated the course to include links to the version with the pictures. 

with pictures

LLS:ENCBKROMANS
2015-06-30T16:22:12Z
ENCBKROMANS.logos4

without pictures

LLS:ENCBKROMANSMOO
2015-06-30T16:22:33Z
ENCBKROMANSMOO.logos4

If you look at the course on Mark, it only includes links to the revised edition of the Expositors commentary and none to the older version. 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 12:41 PM

Jack, 

I think that Mark suggests including links to the second edition (which is different to the revised version of the first edition). While Faithlife can't do this for books citing a certain edition, this would surely be possible here where we talk about a course produced inhouse and where there are only "See also"-links to chapters in a book.

Mick

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 1:53 PM

Mark Barnes:
Don't create links to products that have already been withdrawn at the time of producing the course, unless they're absolutely vital.

I consider all the readings absolutely vital ... you don't know which ones are available to me.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 3:20 PM

NB.Mick:

Jack, 

I think that Mark suggests including links to the second edition (which is different to the revised version of the first edition). While Faithlife can't do this for books citing a certain edition, this would surely be possible here where we talk about a course produced inhouse and where there are only "See also"-links to chapters in a book.

now i'm even more confused. Are the links to the encountering romans book in this course BOTH to versions of the first edition, and neither is to the second edition? If that s true, then this needs to be fixed asap, since you cannot buy either version of the first edition.

can someone confirm that none of the links are to the second edition before i buy that resource? I don't want to waste $28.

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Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 4:44 PM
John, In the course, the only links to this book is the first edition, one with pictures and the one without the pictures. See my post above for the Logos book ID's. I have both of the books, that is how I got the book ID's. I don't own the second edition of the book and have no dead links to it. I would say that one day, they will include links to the second edition. Only time will tell when that happens.
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John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 5:01 PM

The issue with this is that this resource is linked to 39 times and that neither of the links is to books available in logos now. That's a total of 78 links to unuseable/unavailable resources. That's a VERY significant amount of the course. the galling thing is that logos does sell the 2nd edition. Links to that resource should be added to this course. 78 links which go to resources that dan't be purchased is unacceptable. This is an expensive course, and having this many resources unavailable needs to be corrected.

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Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 5:14 PM

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/98863/682820.aspx#682820 

Is is the link where they plan on updating to the second edition. 

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John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 5:17 PM

Well, that was 10.5 months ago and nothing has apparently happened. I suppose I could return the course if it looks like this is going to take years instead of the few months I would have expected.

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Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2015 5:24 PM

I believe that if you purchased the second edition. You can use the table of contents to manually navigate to the proper location to read.  That is what I do with mobile Ed courses that only link to the revised edition of the expositors commentary and I have the first edition of it.  

I think sometimes in the digital age we forgot how to find things manually.  This happens to me when I use a dead tree version of a Bible, it takes me time to remember where the books of the Bible are located. 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 19 2015 2:39 AM

John Kaess:
The issue with this is that this resource is linked to 39 times and that neither of the links is to books available in logos now. That's a total of 78 links to unuseable/unavailable resources.

The second set of links in the course are to the version of Encountering that Logos currently sells, now matter what it should be called.

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John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 19 2015 7:38 AM

Jack Caviness:
The second set of links in the course are to the version of Encountering that Logos currently sells, now matter what it should be called.

Jack, are you sure of this? The thread from January 2015 referenced above has a statement by FaithLife that the 2nd edition of this resource is not yet linked. The 2nd edition is the only version currently sold by Logos. Do you have the second edition version, and do the links actually go to it?

John

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Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 19 2015 7:52 AM

John,

there are are no links to the second edition of the book, but you can navigate to the proper location by doing so manually.   The links in the course are to the two versions of the first edition that Logos used to sell, one with pictures and one without pictures.  By the way the second edition does have the pictures.  

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John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 19 2015 10:38 AM

Thanks, Kenneth

You confirmed my suspicions. I'm hoping that these 2 threads will get the attention of FaithLife that they have 78 links in this course which are to resources they no longer sell, while the resource they do sell is not linked to from this course. This should be a pretty easy fix, and I hope they are willing to tackle it soon since they said they would do it more than 10 months ago.

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Miles Custis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 19 2015 11:29 AM

John, I'm adding links to the 2nd edition of Encountering the Book of Romans today. I hadn't made it a priority because I wasn't aware that we had stopped selling the 1st edition. It looks like we stopped selling it in June. We definitely want to make sure the course provides a link to a version of that book that people can purchase since it matches the content of Moo's course very well. I apologize for not getting to it sooner.

We normally won't link to resources that aren't available for purchase when we produce the course. Encountering the Book of Romans is a unique and somewhat confusing case. There are links to two different versions of its 1st edition (including one that was retired when we produced the course) because of the issue Kenneth referred to above (the discussion he mentioned is here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/81469.aspx). We also won't remove links to resources when they stop being available because we don't want to remove value for people who purchased those books in the past.

In general, we do plan to update courses that rely heavily on a book that gets replaced by a new edition. We will be shipping an update of BI201 The Story of the Bible that includes links to the 2nd edition of The Drama of Scripture at the end of this month. We're also planning on updating the reading links in TH101–4 to include the 3rd edition of Millard Erickson's Christian Theology (those courses currently link to the 2nd edition).

Sometimes updates don't replace previous editions. When that happens we'll link to whichever is more relevant. The revised edition of the Expositor's Bible Commentary on Mark that Kenneth mentioned to includes a significant contribution by Mark Strauss, our instructor for our book study of Mark. That's why we provided links to it and not the original edition.

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