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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 3:19 PM

MarkStevens:
I am really worried!

I have to say this is annoying for us here, but more so for those of you outside the USA. Imagine how you'll feel if the DVDs you get won't work because of production issues. Another 4 week wait for a replacement set? Downloading all of them (if that's an option)? I pray that isn't necessary. I do hope they work when you get them.

This was a big project and a first for Logos, and there have been problems that should/could have been avoided.I know we are all being as patient as we can be.

I hope the final outcome will make all of us happy.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 3780
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 3:53 PM

It seems like the same kind of attitude that moved the production of L4 along before it was completed.  I know that LOGOS will take care of it - but I really don't like the pattern they are setting for themselves.

Sort of feels like deja vu.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 222
Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 6:22 PM

As a Mac user, I have said for a long time that it feels we are treated like the neglected step-children with Logos Bible Software.  However, now seeing how they have handled the Greek & Hebrew DVDs with such poor professionalism and just plain unacceptable care and pride for the product itself... I'm seriously starting to be concerned that there is little care for the customer at all.  

It seems the idea is good, but honestly... a poorly edited product with even the most basic errors in alphabet & sound??  Its sad that Logos admits to noticing such major mistakes prior to shipping the product and chose to ship it anyways.  Even sadder than that is the fact that Logos did not disclose these errors to the customer with the product packaging (or lack of).  Instead they waited for some customers to find the problem, post about it, and then explain that a download is coming soon to fix this.  If you knew you made these errors... why not be proactive?  Why wait to be caught and called with your mistakes??

As for the download option - The fix for a poorly edited product with even the most basic editing errors is not to provide long downloads of huge video files as a reaction to those who were smart enough to find your mistakes... but to fix the problems and mail new DVDs that are more appropriate for a paying customer.  At $160 and now $500 for 2 DVDs of videos... I find it very hard to believe that it wasn't in the budget to bring a sound level up once in a while before making a master copy.  Sorry but I just find this unacceptable.  I would hope that you, as a company, would agree with me.

River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

 

Posts 139
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 7:44 PM

Pastor Bob Turner:
why not be proactive?

Bob:

We've actually taken a number of steps to try and provide proactive support for the videos, including:

  • establishing distinct forums for the videos (so users don't get lost among all the other forum issues)
  • establishing support pages for the videos at http://logos.com/learn (much more content will be forthcoming soon:)
  • creating spaces on the support wiki (for general issues, Greek, and Hebrew)

We never like publishing materials with errors or glitches. But we're constantly balancing competing business priorities and resources, along with users asking "when is it going to ship?" To make matters more challenging, this is a new kind of product for us: we haven't done video production before. But rest assured that we're working hard to address the problems that arise. 

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 8:48 PM

Sean Boisen:
We never like publishing materials with errors or glitches. But we're constantly balancing competing business priorities and resources, along with users asking "when is it going to ship?"

 

I have a bit of an issue with this business philosophy...

Your ok with shipping products with errors and glitches IF customers add enough pressure? 

When/Why does a lower grade product with errors and glitches take a higher priority over shipping a reviewed polished product?

I 'love' ya Logos... but you can do better than that...

Posts 620
Jonathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 8:59 PM

Sean Boisen:

Pastor Bob Turner:
why not be proactive?

Bob:

We've actually taken a number of steps to try and provide proactive support for the videos, including:

  • establishing distinct forums for the videos (so users don't get lost among all the other forum issues)
  • establishing support pages for the videos at http://logos.com/learn (much more content will be forthcoming soon:)
  • creating spaces on the support wiki (for general issues, Greek, and Hebrew)

We never like publishing materials with errors or glitches. But we're constantly balancing competing business priorities and resources, along with users asking "when is it going to ship?" To make matters more challenging, this is a new kind of product for us: we haven't done video production before. But rest assured that we're working hard to address the problems that arise. 

 

That is not exactly what anyone means by being proactive.

 

Syntax Searching Group | Michigan Logos Users | L5 FAQ | OSX 10.10 | 2.4 GHz i5 | 8 GB Ram

Posts 1720
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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 9:30 PM

J. Morris:
Your ok with shipping products with errors and glitches IF customers add enough pressure? 

No we aren't okay with that.

We do (intentionally) ship products without all the planned features written, and of course every software product has bugs, and they get prioritized and triaged, but never all fixed. It's okay to ship a v1.0 knowing v1.1 will be even better. But content is a bit different than software, and outright errors are different than "things we could do better with more time." We collectively made a mistake here, for which I apologize. This was our first time with this type of product, and while we have a lot of experience shipping software (and processes for doing so), we're new to shipping video products.

We'll address this, and fix the process as part of that.

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 11:45 PM

Bob Pritchett:

J. Morris:
Your ok with shipping products with errors and glitches IF customers add enough pressure? 

No we aren't okay with that.

We do (intentionally) ship products without all the planned features written, and of course every software product has bugs, and they get prioritized and triaged, but never all fixed. It's okay to ship a v1.0 knowing v1.1 will be even better. But content is a bit different than software, and outright errors are different than "things we could do better with more time." We collectively made a mistake here, for which I apologize. This was our first time with this type of product, and while we have a lot of experience shipping software (and processes for doing so), we're new to shipping video products.

We'll address this, and fix the process as part of that.

 Thanks for responding Bob but what does this mean for International Customers? 

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 3:23 AM

Bob, can I just say that some of my own personal frustration is with the marketing. It raised my own expectation so high when I hear of so many problems i worry that I will be sorely disappointed. Thats all! Smile

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 4:03 AM

MarkStevens:
Bob, can I just say that some of my own personal frustration is with the marketing. It raised my own expectation so high when I hear of so many problems i worry that I will be sorely disappointed. Thats all! Smile

 

Mark,

you won't be "sorely disappointed" brother.

Yes...there are problems....and yes some of them are "fundamental" types...but the DVD's aren't garbage or unusable or anything like that..in fact...except for the sound issues and what's been mentioned....I've found them to be very very good.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3
Paul Martin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 6:04 AM

Logos Community,

It is obvious from the posts to this forum that many of us are disappointed regarding the content and quality of the DVD's that we received. Many people have made good suggestions and pointed out real issues. Granted the DVD's could be better, fundamental errors should be fixed. Logos has agreed to fix the errors and post the content where it can be accessed by most users. I am confident they will do right by the people who spent $160 on this product. However, fixing errors takes time and planning. They must plan how to best make the changes, distribute the information, and insure the appropriate people are notified and have access to the updates.

As Logos noted this is a new type of product for them. I spent several years working for and supporting a large software company (not Logos). The complexities of diagnosing problems with different types of computer hardware, and operating systems are daunting. I've been there. I think the average user hasn not been exposed to the complexity of the software development process and will find difficulty truly appreciating the amount time that is required to develop and repair products for extremely diverse computers and operating systems. Even the best software companies in the world find unexpected bugs after release.

The people who write this software are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They should be treated as such. They will be held accountable for their actions in this life and the next. Please point out the errors and work with them not against them.

2 Tim 2:24 "...the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 6:07 AM

Paul Martin:

The people who write this software are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They should be treated as such. They will be held accountable for their actions in this life and the next. Please point out the errors and work with them not against them.

2 Tim 2:24 "...the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."

Amen.

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 298
Kaye Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 6:47 AM

Yes Yes...

"But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."  2 Timothy 4:5 (NASB)

Posts 54
Paul Bradley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 8:48 AM

 

Paul Martin:

The people who write this software are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They should be treated as such. They will be held accountable for their actions in this life and the next. Please point out the errors and work with them not against them.

2 Tim 2:24 "...the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."

 

 

A big Amen here.

Millisle & Ballycopeland Presbyterian Church, Northern Ireland.

Posts 4768
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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 10:44 AM

Robert Pavich:

MarkStevens:
Bob, can I just say that some of my own personal frustration is with the marketing. It raised my own expectation so high when I hear of so many problems i worry that I will be sorely disappointed. Thats all! Smile

 

Mark,

you won't be "sorely disappointed" brother.

Yes...there are problems....and yes some of them are "fundamental" types...but the DVD's aren't garbage or unusable or anything like that..in fact...except for the sound issues and what's been mentioned....I've found them to be very very good.

I can second what Robert says. I am thrilled to have the information and instruction in these DVD's despite the minor issues that have been discussed.

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 1:26 PM

Fred Chapman:

Robert Pavich:

MarkStevens:
Bob, can I just say that some of my own personal frustration is with the marketing. It raised my own expectation so high when I hear of so many problems i worry that I will be sorely disappointed. Thats all! Smile

 

Mark,

you won't be "sorely disappointed" brother.

Yes...there are problems....and yes some of them are "fundamental" types...but the DVD's aren't garbage or unusable or anything like that..in fact...except for the sound issues and what's been mentioned....I've found them to be very very good.

 

I can second what Robert says. I am thrilled to have the information and instruction in these DVD's despite the minor issues that have been discussed.

Thanks guys, I am sure they will be great (and I have no doubts about the content. Just a little disappointed about the audio quality...audio quality really irks me if it is poor! Anyway, everyday i check my post box hoping that it has arrived! Smile

Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 7:22 PM

The problem I have with all of this is, the difference in what is advertised and what is delivered.  I really hope that Logos fixes these errors and provides updated DVDS free of charge (I paid for error free DVDS).  

I understand that it may be difficult to do something different than they have done in the past and all, but to be fair to the customer, it is not really our fault.  They said they were going to do this video series and that we should buy it, in fact I don't know if i have ever seen something more advertised than this video series within the Bible study genre.  

I am not upset with Logos over this but I do hope that they make this right.  

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 7:37 PM

John Graves:

The problem I have with all of this is, the difference in what is advertised and what is delivered.  I really hope that Logos fixes these errors and provides updated DVDS free of charge (I paid for error free DVDS).  

I understand that it may be difficult to do something different than they have done in the past and all, but to be fair to the customer, it is not really our fault.  They said they were going to do this video series and that we should buy it, in fact I don't know if i have ever seen something more advertised than this video series within the Bible study genre.  

I am not upset with Logos over this but I do hope that they make this right.  

Very well said and reflects what I was trying to say.

Posts 60
Tim Deahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 7:10 AM

Bob, 

As a longtime user and promoter of Logos software, I have to agree--regrettably--with the criticisms of this product, specifically its promotion and accompanying (lack of) instructions. Unless I missed some important information (and I reviewed the information repeatedly), some things which should have been made clear in the product publicity/promotion were not. Foremost among them is the reality made clear only after forum discussion that the videos are to some degree in an "unfinished," preliminary state. The product was sold/promoted as a "finished" product. It appears now that users will need to spend a lot of time reading through the forum and/or wiki to answer key questions about the product and how to use it. I concur with those who become increasingly frustrated with "unfinished," "half-finished" products. Working with beta versions, candidate releases, etc., is frustrating but I'm happy to do it in order to stay at least close to the forefront, but it drives my students up the wall and quickly elicits regret at having been encouraged (or required) to make costly investments in a product that needs continual upgrades to function as promised. They are not encouraged when I have to tell them that yet another fix/patch will be released at some undetermined point in the future.

In addition, the "instructions" (shipped with DVDs) are quite limiting for instructors like myself. The product overview is encouraging: 

  • Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software is perfect for teaching preparation in your courses that focus on Greek and Hebrew tools for English readers. Use the videos to prepare your lessons. Learn new teaching methods, and glean ideas for your own teaching and lecturing on the original languages. Professors teaching traditional first year Greek and Hebrew courses can use the videos for showing students how to use their language training for exegesis.
  • Integrate technology into the classroom. Supplement your teaching and lectures with high definition video. Help your students use Logos Bible Software for studying the Bible with the original languages.

On the other hand, the "instructions" state, "You may present them in a group setting, providing your students own a copy"! I guess that means I cannot use them in any setting unless its restricted to owners of the dvds! 

I also notice (after receiving the instructions) that I can only download the videos to one single hard disk. For someone like myself who works on home and office computer, this is unduly restrictive (and runs counter to the rather lack positions typically associated with Logos usage.

Sorry--very sorry--to be so critical. I strongly support Logos and your leadership. IF I could have stated this opinion confidentially, I would have, but obviously, the opinions are not mine alone. Typically, the promotional information clarifies issues up front. Not this time! 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 7:23 AM

Tim Deahl:
some things which should have been made clear in the product publicity/promotion were not. Foremost among them is the reality made clear only after forum discussion that the videos are to some degree in an "unfinished," preliminary state.

I guess I'm not tracking you on this...how did we come to the conclusion that these videos are "unfinished" and prelim?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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