The SLOWNESS OF LOGOS9, THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST FRUSTRATING SOFTWARE IN THE WORLD

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This post has 39 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 38
David Walsh | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Apr 16 2021 1:52 AM

Having used Logos almost since its inception, and having spent tens of thousands of pounds on Logos Bible software books, I must say I am at the end of my tether with this software and its authors. When writing or making alterations to my notes (which are many and an everyday  occurrence), a basic and simple function I would have thought, there is a ten second delay on any amendment made or key stroke. This must place LBS at the bottom of the pile for any software in the world. And yes I have a high end gaming computer with 2020 specs, i7 64gb ram blah blah blah. 

I am not a computer programmer, but surely there a solution to this persistent and very annoying problem? I appreciate Logos has updated in recent days for computers to utilise their faster processors, but seriously Logos get your act together. 

I also use Accordance, and Wordsearch and both function better than Logos in the notes department. 

After several years of suffering with this issue can Logos make an attempt to do something serious? Love the graphs and language functions, but are as much use as third nipple if I can not use the notes feature as in other software programs.  

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 1:55 AM

Hi David

I just wanted to check if you were using a computer with an Intel 11th generation processor chip?

I'm guessing that is not the issue - as you speak about the problem continuing for several years - but I wanted to confirm.

Posts 1
Martin Waldenvik | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 2:22 AM

I'm also using Accordance more and more because it is so much faster. But it is expensive to keep two separate software up to date. i Am doing all of my searches in Accordance, all deeper exegesis in Logos. But i really would love Logos to be faster and not feel so hogging.
I'm using Logos on three different types of computer, an Apple M1 Mac Mini, and older i7 laptop and a newer i5 NUC, all have nvme disks and minimum of 8GB ram.

Posts 38
David Walsh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 2:38 AM

Hi Graham yes it is an i7 6700 HQ, with 64gb ram. This is persistent problem with notes, and has worsened with the implementation of Logos 9. Slight speed up with the recent amendment, but not with notes :D 

Posts 38
David Walsh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 2:44 AM

Yes, for me the main issue is with notes, experiencing major slow down and feels very clunky. It is really expensive to maintain accordance and LBS9, and seriously considering moving to Accordance, but I have 21,000 books on LBS9, so not an easy call. On the whole I love LBS9 and use for several hours every day for translation and commentary work BUT the notes function is awfully poor.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 11:39 AM

David Walsh:
When writing or making alterations to my notes (which are many and an everyday  occurrence), a basic and simple function I would have thought, there is a ten second delay on any amendment made or key stroke. This must place LBS at the bottom of the pile for any software in the world.

Curious about Program Setting for Use Internet ? If Yes, does changing to No followed by restarting Logos have any responsiveness effect when writing or making alterations to notes ?

Curious about storage device hardware ? Logos is a database application with intensive storage interaction (so Solid State Disk noticeably improves responsiveness, albeit application can be frustratingly slow at times).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 897
Bill Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 12:37 PM

The one specification you haven't told us about your computer is whether you have an SSD or HDD. As Keep Smiling said, an SSD noticeably improves the responsiveness of Logos.

Posts 1248
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 4:55 PM

It is a horribly slow program. Any complaint about it in the forum will be met with insistent suggestions to buy better harder, especially an SSD. While I'm approaching the point where I see I don't have any option but to get a new system (for this and other reasons), there is no reason Logos has to be so slow, even without an SSD. It's by far the slowest program I use. I personally don't care about how long searches take (they're not that bad, actually), but the system shouldn't hang for 10 seconds whenever I click the Layouts menu etc. There's definitely some sloppy programming going on here.

I don't expect any of this to ever change.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 5:15 PM

Sean:
but the system shouldn't hang for 10 seconds whenever I click the Layouts menu etc.

Have you tried to capture the lag and posting the logs? I can think of some ways I could force it to take that long but you are correct that it should not take that long as a matter of course.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 6:00 PM

Sean:

It is a horribly slow program. Any complaint about it in the forum will be met with insistent suggestions to buy better harder, especially an SSD. While I'm approaching the point where I see I don't have any option but to get a new system (for this and other reasons), there is no reason Logos has to be so slow, even without an SSD. It's by far the slowest program I use. I personally don't care about how long searches take (they're not that bad, actually), but the system shouldn't hang for 10 seconds whenever I click the Layouts menu etc. There's definitely some sloppy programming going on here.

I don't expect any of this to ever change.

I have to concur. It has always been like this. It's a philosophy baked deep into the DNA of the company. Code first, optimize later. So every time the program gets more complicated, it slows down again, until they prioritize optimizing (after the fact) parts of it that people have complained about the most, instead of designing performance into it from the ground up. There's only so much optimization you can achieve from tweaking code after the fact if it was designed with O(n2) or O(n log n) algorithms where O(n) could have been done if they'd thought about it more at the architectural design stage.

I was a developer at Microsoft for over a decade in the 80s and 90s, and I have a degree in computer science, including a course on theory of computation where we studied algorithm efficiency. I am not a fan of the "code first, optimize later" theory of development. I agree with this blogger who says it comes from a misunderstanding of Donald Knuth's famous quote: "premature optimization is the root of all evil." Another excellent article on this is The Fallacy of Premature Optimization. I don't think they teach software engineers the way they used to back in my day, and it's a pity.

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Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 6:36 PM

MJ. Smith:

Sean:
but the system shouldn't hang for 10 seconds whenever I click the Layouts menu etc.

Have you tried to capture the lag and posting the logs? I can think of some ways I could force it to take that long but you are correct that it should not take that long as a matter of course.

I really should do that, MJ. At one point I had logging enabled, but it seems to have stopped. I need to get it started again and try this.

It frustrates me, though, as some things are quite fast. If I mouse over a hyperlink to a resource, it shows the snippet very quickly, and like I said, search is acceptably fast given my configuration. It's using basic program functions and opening various windows that takes forever...

Posts 109
Darrell Tan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 7:02 PM

Thank you Rosie for your perspective. I have found Logos slow, and often the advice on the forums is how to tweak one's computer settings or upgrade hardware. While that is practical, it does not address Logos itself. And I find it sad that a mature and leading platform has "always been like this".

There was a point when I was using the mobile app primarily, followed by the web app on desktop, because the desktop program was too slow. Now that I have an SSD, I concur that it is the key upgrade that makes Logos usable. But it is really a pity that Logos falls far behind other software, on HDDs. The lack of speed, and the persistent indexing, make me hesitate to recommend it to someone without sufficient motivation/commitment.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 7:23 PM

Sean:
It frustrates me, though, as some things are quite fast.

As a single example, myself, without any knowledge of how frequent the type of problem is, Bradley sped my Verbum up on it's seemingly random sticking points by having me adjust a couple of visual filters, It took me a couple of weeks to figure out the relationship between what he asked me to do and what I was seeing as symptoms but his solution worked. Would I have ever figured it out on my own? Probably not.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 8:29 PM

MJ. Smith:

Sean:
It frustrates me, though, as some things are quite fast.

As a single example, myself, without any knowledge of how frequent the type of problem is, Bradley sped my Verbum up on it's seemingly random sticking points by having me adjust a couple of visual filters, It took me a couple of weeks to figure out the relationship between what he asked me to do and what I was seeing as symptoms but his solution worked. Would I have ever figured it out on my own? Probably not.

Done! I started a new thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/200310/1162549.aspx#1162549 

As how it usually goes with you call tech support, the problems didn't seem nearly as bad for this session. I'd appreciate anyone taking a look at the logs, though.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 8:50 PM

I'm sorry you're experiencing performance problems with Notes. We've had a handful of users report similar problems. We've done some initial testing but have yet to pinpoint the problem. Many users with more notes and slower computers don't experience the same problems, so we've not yet found the common denominator.

The good news, though, is that we're kicking off a performance team right now, and getting to the bottom of this Notes performance issue is at the top of the list. We plan to tackle other performance initiatives, too, once we've solved this one.

Someone may reach out soon to ask some questions and see if we can pinpoint the problem with your set up.

I'm sorry again for this subpar performance. We're committed to getting to the bottom of it.

Posts 1248
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 16 2021 8:54 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
The good news, though, is that we're kicking off a performance team right now, and getting to the bottom of this Notes performance issue is at the top of the list. We plan to tackle other performance initiatives, too, once we've solved this one.

This is fabulous to hear, Phil! Thanks for all your help down the years and being sensitive to customer needs.

Posts 38
David Walsh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 17 2021 1:40 AM

Hi Graham, it is HDD

Posts 38
David Walsh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 17 2021 1:44 AM

Thanks for the reply and encouragement to keep smiling :D Cool

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 17 2021 2:15 AM

Rosie Perera:
I don't think they teach software engineers the way they used to back in my day, and it's a pity.

From a huge sample of 1, namely my grandson, I believe the current model is "code first-think second-design never" except for the UI. And yes, after a couple of other jobs, he's become a Microsoft employee and thoroughly brainwashed into their philosophy. I was amused that another grandson who is a "manufacturing engineer" constantly programming machines was taught the rigorous design procedures his cousin needs. Yes, there is a third grandson ... they're part of the generation that gave our family a  51 year gap between the birth of girls  or 74 years if you insist they be on the same branch.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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