Official Survey: How do you feel about Logos Pro and the move to subscription?

I hope I'm wrong, but the posts from Logos and the survey seem to point towards ignoring all of the loyal customers that have no desire for a subscription. Where are the questions about desire for purchasing in the survey? Sounds like the decision is made and the request for feedback was a ploy to say it was done, with no intent to respond in kind... I truly hope I am wrong....

Frank Sauer said:

the survey seem to point towards ignoring all of the loyal customers that have no desire for a subscription. Where are the questions about desire for purchasing in the survey?

There are questions in the survey that capture the input of customers who have no interest in a subscription.

The more I think about it, the more I like the move to subscription. I was very reluctant to move to subscribing elsewhere, e.g., streaming music. Now I love being able to access a vast catalog of music. I'd bought vinyl albums, 8-track, cassettes, and CDs. I was always "renting," in a sense.

Books are a bit different, but as long as we aren't losing our original investments, I'm fine with it. Each iteration of Logos, while purchased (i.e., feature sets) is not permanent, any more than a copy of Microsoft Word. It's only going to work for a few years; eventually the technology changes and you have to upgrade. A subscription just makes the entire process easier, and cloud based. This is going to be great.

Everything is temporary. Moths and rust destroy, thieves break in and steal. Logos (the company) is temporary too, but I really want them to be around for as long as I'm in this earthen vessel.

Mark Barnes (Logos) said:

We've really valued your feedback on the two subscription threads. We've read every comment and discussed many of them.

If you have five minutes, we'd appreciate you completing this survey.

Completing the survey will help us better understand your desires and concerns as we move towards subscription.

Thanks for your ongoing help!

I have also filled out the survey.

While I'm not thrilled with the idea of subscriptions and doubt that I'll like the final outcome, I do appreciate your willingness to engage and listen to your customer base.

I have answered the survey. However, it is becoming increasingly apparent that those who do not jump on board the express to subscriptions are going to be left behind (I hope I'm incorrect).

I purchased Logos 10 full-fearure on the day of release, but I am not interested in cloud-based features including AI. I would like to see the mobile (Android) functionality improved in some ways, particularly sermon editing capabilities, but it sounds like the decision has been made to withhold any such upgrades from clients who don't get a subscription.

$9.99/month may not seem like much. But when those with stagnant wages are seeing their financial capacity shrinking due to inflationary pressure, even that amount may be huge. I'm speaking as someone who has not gotten so much as a COLA in ten years.

Please, reconsider making available a non-cloud-based feature option to customers who can't afford, don't need, or simply won't get a subscription.

Frank Sauer said:

My point exactly - it's all about Subscription.... 

Frank, I share your opinions. But Mark was up-front from the start .... subscriptions. Later ... not a democracy. And ... the forum is just one of many input-sources. The ship departs Southampton. It's just a question of how to arrange the deck chairs for passenger comfort.

I keep trying to imagine (1) a future feature I'd want, (2) an intuitive feature they could actually design, and (3) something they'll stick with. Their last good design was MBD and I think that was almost a decade back. They're not good at features.

I responded to the survey but I thought I might also post my thoughts here. 

I have been using Logo for more than 20 year and invested quite a few dollars (technically Rands as that is my currency) in books and upgrades over the years. I have been using the software even before the Libronix days. 

I see this move to subscription only model (which incidentally I just discovered today by accident) as a fundamental betrayal of my loyal support over many many years. I am 46 years old which means I have been using Logos for almost half my life! 

In my opinion all the "reasons" for going subscription could easily be done for those who WANT it. Like it is now. I don't get access to the latest stuff and honestly I'm happy to wait fo the new release. Now I have no choice. 

Sure AI is cool but really. AI might be useful one day but honestly I'd prefer not to pay for it. It hasn't proven very useful to me and I have tried to use it in my every day software engineering work. The idea of AI is great but the implementation so far is not the best. 

You say I'll still have access to my books and all the features I have already purchased. What you forgot to add is "for now"

I am a software developer. I know that software changes. I have been writing software professionally for longer than I have been actively using Logos  and none of the software I used in the past works anymore. Pretty much all the software I have written under contract is gone now. So I have my features now but if I don't subscribe, how long till my version of Logos is no more than a simple book reader with search capabilities (like the original Libronix for Mac was). 

I already can't use all the features of Logos because I often work offline (on a plane or in church) and now with subscription I will eventually lose even more. 

It also makes me wonder whether I should continue to buy books for Logos and not go somewhere else. Who knows how long my software will continue to work properly in the future. 

And can Logos/Faithlife guarantee that a feature I own now won't be decomissioned in future in favour of something else that requires a subscription to use. Obviously not! That would be ludicrous. The nature of software makes that impossible. 

So Logos has put a clock on how long I can still use their software!

And I live in South Africa. $20 a month is a significant investment. But who cares about those overseas people with weaker currencies!

I am not happy with this move and honestly it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. 

"You will own nothing and you will be happy"

Welll.... I was a software developer also (for Engineering/database type).  And like you, all of the software my team developed will not work now. (Dec 11-44, IBM-486 machines are no more).  Technology improves/changes. That is the nature of the beast. I remember writing programs that ran on an IBM 486 desktop computer Dos machines. Surely they don't work on todays technology. 

Having said that, software has to change with technology or die. Such is the case with Logos. While I, like you, may not like the choices that new software brings... I, as you, have basically two choices... either buy into the new way of technology or quit. It sounds harsh, don't mean it to, but that is the reality. 

Where is it headed? I think it's here to stay. Microsoft has subscription with Office 365 and from what I understand, are gaining subscribers. Go figure! People must like getting changes early.  In some ways, I like getting changes quickly. And from what I'm thinking in all this.... if the subscription rates are cheaper than buying updates every couple of years, then what's the harm? 

Edit: [And if you think software developer such as Logos can work all year and just get paid once a year (yearly updates).... think about it... would you work that way when people demand you work cheaply? I would not. I, and my family, has depended on steady, monthly income since before I had a family. Subscription should help Logos bottom line because they can then forecast their revenue much more accurately and know better how to apply their employees to develop the software. Hopefully, we will se a more "stable" employee environment and stop some of this "coming and going" like a yo-yo bobbing on a string.[

All this is my two cents.... which is not worth any more than that. [8-|]

I appreciate your thoughts and I wish you well. 

Ok... let's get real.  I understand the reluctance to go to a "monthly subscription"... as I am not overly fond of the idea myself, mainly because I've never done it. But can someone tell me which will be cheaper.... the annual update price ... or... the monthly subscription price for the same time period?

I mean.... right now Logos Pro is costing me $120 per year. Would the annual or 2 year update price be cheaper than that?  To me, this is where the rubber meets the road... right? 

Thanks.

Hi Graham

Mark's statement there doesn't tell the whole truth. If I just wanted a book reader with some basic search access, ESword or even Google would be sufficient. The power of Logos now adays is the feature set and the data sets that underly those features. Does Mark and Logos expect me to believe that they will keep updating those datasets with the latest material for free when I don't pay for a subscription. I doubt it. It won't happen all at once but slowly but surely all the datasets will get outdated and eventually become useless. Which means even if I upgrade to the free Logos app every time its made available my library will get less powerful over time. And what happens when Factbook (for example) gets replaced by some new and improved version? Will Logos still support my version of Factbook? Or will I lose access to that feature? Probably the latter. Thus by slow attrition my investment will get less useful until I have a book reader with search functions. 

That is not the promise Faithlife has made for years and years prior. Plus why should I trust this commitment when the evidence suggests that they will not honour their prior commitments. Logos is more than just books now. 

But hey. I am just one small voice. The juggernaut is moving on, and I cannot stop it. So perhaps it would be better to remain silent. 

You are entitled to your opinion of course and perhaps you are right. Nothing will change. But I seriously doubt it. This is the beginning of the end for my Logos journey. A couple of weeks ago I opened my original Scholars Library box and nostalgically leafed through the many many discs that I bought over the years, upgrades I received (only paid shipping) and relived the excitement of getting new books and features. I guess that's gone now. But in my opinion Faithlife hasn't thought it through properly or they simply don't care. Both options leave me sad and depressed for my Bible study future. But I think I will leave it there. 

Thanks for the response. Thank you for taking the time

Mark,

My opinion regarding extra books is that I have no use for temporary books. I want total control over the books I select and I want said books to be licensed permanently to me or better yet be free to me as well as being books of my choice. The quantity of those books should be of the purveyors discretion.

An affordable subscription price is paramount and should include a menu of features that is equivalent to the subscription service or paid feature set that the customer has established over the years. New customers you should feel less constrained and more free to offer what seems reasonable to you.

I'm not a beta user so I have no experience with these features.

I finally settled on choosing 1, not enough. But my opinion was addressed earlier in this post.

I avoid doing surveys, so it should be evident the importance I place on my investment in Logos. I appreciate you seeking out our advice and putting it up for consideration. Do everything you can do to get this decision right the first time as I hate disappointing surprises. But in the end if you find that you have made an error don't shoot yourself in the foot, reevaluate your decision and make the needed change.

I supplied my email and I'm willing to discuss my answers. Some of the questions were structured in such a way that my true sentiments were obscured.

I couldn't read all the topics and comments, but I have a question:
If I don't pay a subscription plan, I will still access all the features that I have today (I generally buy a full feature and some silver packages when a new logos is relased)?
Or with the time pass I will lose some funcionalities, and Logos will be only a kindle-like software for the non-paid subscription users?

I will chime in here. I do not preach or teach and do not need features to assist me in doing so. Nor do i need AI functionality as fun as that was at one time.  I am just a simple layman with a rather large and expensive library I have built up over a long period of time. 

As it has been stated here, software does age as tech moves forward. Once they go Pro (subscription) I have seen anywhere that clearly states they will keep the desktop non-Pro going or up to date. I may have missed it, but it wouldn't make much sense to divide their efforts.

I am not angry about this, and like everything else things are moving to subs. But I have canceled my prepub I had.

Hi Stephen 

I speak under correction here and the Logos peeps and more knowlegable users can chime in here. The way I understood Logos was that it is made up of three (or four if you add cloud features) distinct parts. The base app. This includes the book reader, search features, basic passage guide, exegetical guide etc. That's part 1. Part 2 is the books themselves. You buy those, you keep those and you can search and read them using the base app. Then there are the features. Things like Biblical Places and Biblical Things and Factbook and Systematic Theologies and so on. Those feautres are dependent on data sets. Data sets are not books but are complex linking devices that enable the features. For example I bought the book Biblical Doctrine which is a systematic theology from Masters Seminary. Initially it was not part of the Systematic Theologies feature because it had not been added to that data set. Later it was added and now I can see it in that report. The info that catalogues the Systematics as reformed or evangelical or Catholic etc is part of the data set. Without the data set you can't use the features. 

When a new version of Logos came out since the introduction of data sets you had three options. Don't upgrade at all. After a while Logos would release the new base app and you could download it for free. You get all the basic functionality. However, you don't get any data sets and thus you can't use the new features. If your budget was tight you could do a data set upgrade. Either a base dataset upgrade which gave you the basics or a full feature set upgrade which gave you all the new data sets and thus features but no new books. Or the third option is you pick a base package which would come with either the base data set or the full data set and a selection of new books. 

So how does that translate into a subscription only service? Logos promises you will still be able to upgrade to the new base app for free. But that has always been the case. But that includes no new features or data sets. But since there is no purchase option anymore, just subscription, the option to just buy the feature data sets is gone. And buying base packages with feature sets is gone too. So you get the free engine or you subscribe. Nothing else. 

You can't get upgrades to the feature sets because those cost money to produce and Logos would go out of business if they gave them away for free. I don't expect them to be free. They require much work and expertise. But since the data sets have to be updated all the time with new books as Logos publishes new books if you don't pay you don't get the updates anymore. Which is fair. But the longer you use the software and the more books you buy the more out of date your data sets will get until they are almost useless. Plus what happens if a feature you have is replace by a better one that is under the new subscription model. You could lose that feature entirely, because why should Logos continue to support the old feature for free. They shouldn't. So that feature goes away. 

Perhaps my hypotheticals will never materialise. But based on the info I have now I don't see how it can go any other way. You subscribe or you slowly lose your features until all you have is a basic search engine and book reader, with perhaps a basic passage guide and exegetical guide. You will lose all the online features immediately because they will be behind the paywall anyway. Would the current cloud features become free? I doubt it! 

But perhaps I have it all wrong and there is nothing to worry about. But somehow I doubt that very much.

I am glad you are not angry about this. On the other hand, I am. But I am also very sad. Hollywood has gone out of their way to destroy my childhood stories with their woke movies and the future for good movies looks very bleak. In the same way my long love of Logos is being destroyed and the future of in depth Bible study for me looks equally bleak. I either pay the subscription or move to another bible software company and slowly over 20 years replace all the books I bought on Logos. The mantra of the left is "You will own nothing and you will be happy". Seems others are folloing suit. That makes me very sad and depressed. Your mileage may vary....

Graham Criddle said:

Robert le Clus said:

You could lose that feature entirely, because why should Logos continue to support the old feature for free. They shouldn't. So that feature goes away. 

Possibly - but if a lot of people were using it, there might be a good reason for Logos to continue to support it.

But this "possibly" and previous history of this issue is why Logos needs to remove the misleading wording from this page:

https://www.logos.com/ways-to-upgrade

Features are marketed as yours forever.... Yet the past has shown that to be untrue and a lot of the speculation of the future hints towards it not being true. Features have been deprecated without the ability to continue use, one has basically been renamed and sold as new.... This is the main area of issue that some, including myself have in trusting or believing the statements that the goal is not to force users into a subscription....

Whether a minority uses a feature or a lot of people - if it was sold, it should indeed be supported per the marketing. Not repackaged or updated and then taken away/deprecated to only be accessed via subscription.... (nor as a feature set purchase, but that has slid by in the past)

Graham Criddle said:

Robert le Clus said:

I either pay the subscription or move to another bible software company and slowly over 20 years replace all the books I bought on Logos.

I just don't see this - even though I recognise that you and others are really concerned about this - and I have no inside knowledge about this.

But I just don't see that as a sensible business model for Logos to adopt as they don't want to lose a significant number of valued customers. I don't know what solution they will come up with but I expect to continue to get value from my Logos environment for many years whether or not I choose to subscribe to a new set of features.

----Nevermind..... I'm getting to the point where the time to share feedback is not worth it.....

Thank you, Dave.  [:)]   If no luck within the next few days, I'll see if support has any ideas.