Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

Later this year, we’ll launch the next version of Logos as a subscription. The subscription will have several tiers and eventually replace Preaching Suite, Faithlife Connect, and other Logos feature sets.

We’re living in a period of significant technological change, and only a subscription model enables us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built. Many of you don’t want to wait up to two years for improvements that could significantly benefit your Bible study. Subscription also allows us to include AI features which we can’t offer with permanent licenses due to the significant ongoing costs and rapidly changing technology.

Subscriptions aren’t required to maintain access to your existing content. They’re for those who want access to new and improved features. With Logos, your content investment is always safe, and you’ll always be able to access it for free. The subscription benefits listed above for features don’t apply to books in the same way, so we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling perpetual licenses to books.

Can I get these subscriptions today?

One of the tiers of the forthcoming subscription will be called Logos Pro, and it will be aimed specifically at pastors. The full launch of these subscriptions won’t happen until later in the year, but if you own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set or subscribe to Faithlife Connect (excluding Starter and Mobile), you can get early access to Logos Pro today at a very special price.

Logos Pro includes most of the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, a library of more than 400 books to help you experience the power of Logos, and all the new features and improvements we’re developing for Logos 11. If you subscribe today, you’ll get five new features (Smart Search, Search Results Summaries, Summarization Sidebar, Sermon Assistant, and Instant Dark/Light Mode), and approximately once a quarter, we’ll add new and improved features to the subscription—not just this year, but every year.

How much will early access to Logos Pro cost?

Customers who own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set or subscribe to Faithlife Connect (excluding Starter and Mobile) can purchase the subscription for just $9.99/month. When Logos Pro launches in the fall with the other tiers of subscription, you’ll have the option to maintain your subscription to Logos Pro or switch to one of the other subscription tiers at a continued large discount.

How do I get it?

If you qualify, you can get early access to Logos Pro today at www.logos.com/early-access.

What is in Logos Pro?

We, and our beta testers, are excited by the features we’re adding to Logos Pro and later to the other subscription tiers. At the time of writing, Logos Pro includes most of the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, a library of more than 400 books to help you experience the power of Logos, and five new features described below. More features will be added regularly throughout the year and beyond.

Smart Search is a brand-new search engine built right into Logos. Just like the search engines you’re familiar with online, Smart Search doesn’t just search for the words in your query—it uses AI to search for articles that discuss the meaning of those words and then shows the most relevant place in that article in the search snippets. It makes searching your Logos library as easy as you’ve always hoped it would be.

Search Results Summaries allows you, with one click, to turn any brief search snippet into an AI-generated summary of the entire article, allowing you to better understand what each article covers, saving you time and helping you find the best content to dig into.

Summarization Sidebar enables you to use AI to summarize any article or chapter in almost any of your Logos books. The new Summarize tool can help you digest a lengthy article more quickly, simplify a complex article, or determine whether the full article is worth your time reading in full.

Sermon Assistant is an AI-powered tool that helps preachers overcome creative block and makes it easier to create materials to help the congregation better engage with the message. Currently:

The Illustrations Generator suggests several short sermon illustrations you can use to explain doctrinal or other concepts.
The Discussion Questions Generator takes a completed sermon and creates a series of discussion questions based on the sermon that could be used in a church bulletin or for small group, family, or personal study.

More than 400 commentaries, dictionaries, systematic theologies, journals, and other books to help you experience the distinctive power of Logos, including:

17 volumes of the Lexham Research Commentary series
10 volumes of the Spurgeon Commentary series
30 volumes of the Bible Study Magazine
More than 350 additional volumes

Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.

And much more still to come!

That’s a lot of AI! Are all the new features going to be AI-powered?

We’re excited by the possibilities that AI—responsibly leveraged—brings to Logos, and we want to make the most of this technology. But we also want to equip you with the best tools for Bible study, using the most suitable technology for the task. So while there are plenty of AI-powered improvements in Logos Pro, and several more coming, we’ll also bring non-AI feature improvements, too.

Does AI really have a place in Bible study?

Christians have always been at the forefront of technology when it comes to accessing and understanding the Bible, whether adopting the codex in the second century or the printing press in the fifteenth. However, AI has limitations, fallibilities, and biases because it mirrors and sometimes amplifies those same weaknesses found in all human authors. That’s why Logos always lets you know when the content you’re reading is generated by AI. In addition, Logos’s AI tools are backed by your Logos library and designed to ensure AI is used responsibly and in a way appropriate for Bible study.

I don’t own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set. When can I subscribe to Logos Pro?

If you don’t own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, you’ll be able to subscribe later in the year at a higher price. Or, you could purchase the Full Feature Upgrade now and immediately become eligible to subscribe at the discounted price.

Is early access to Logos Pro a beta program?

No. Each feature is beta-tested before it becomes part of Logos Pro. The purpose of early access is not for testing—it’s so that you can enjoy these new and improved features without waiting for the major release in the fall.

Can I cancel at any time?

Yes. Just visit https://www.logos.com/account/subscriptions.

Where does this leave subscriptions like Faithlife Connect and Preaching Suite?

The subscription that will launch later in the year will replace Faithlife Connect and Preaching Suite. The tier we're launching today, Logos Pro, includes exclusive new features, but there are a few tools and datasets in Connect and Preaching Suite that aren’t in Logos Pro but will be in another tier of the subscription. Most of the books in Logos Pro are different from those included in the existing subscriptions.

If you subscribe to those products, we’ll contact you later in the year to explain how you can painlessly switch to the new subscription. Until then, we recommend keeping your existing subscription to ensure you don’t lose any perks, features, or books. In the meantime, you could add Logos Pro to your existing subscription if you’re eligible.

Will I be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future? What about all the books I’ve already bought?

No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment. Your books are your books. Subscriptions are for those who want access to the latest improvements, which aim to help you uncover deeper insights in less time.

Does this mean Logos will be subscription-only? Will I be able to buy Logos in the future?

Logos subscriptions aren’t new. More than ten thousand people have been subscribing to Logos for nearly a decade. But we’re now embracing subscription for our software because doing so has five distinct advantages.

New users can have much lower upfront costs and try Logos with much less commitment.
It allows us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built, rather than holding them back for a major release every two years. That’s especially important at a time of rapid technological change.
It allows us to include features like AI, which we can’t offer permanent licenses to because of the significant ongoing costs.
It’s a sustainable way of ensuring we can keep delivering improvements for decades to come.
Releasing early and often significantly shortens the feedback loop, enabling us to continually tweak our improvements to ensure they’re really solving the most important things for all our customers.

With books, it’s different. The content of books isn’t continually improved—once they’re published, they’re done. And while we bear small ongoing costs to allow you to download and interact with your books, those costs are orders of magnitude lower than that of AI and similar services. Therefore, you will still be able to buy permanent access to Logos libraries and any other books from our catalog. In the future, we may add rental options for those who want it, but we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling perpetual licenses to books.

We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.

We’re excited about the benefits of a Logos subscription. We’re already building new features and improvements that will be released in the coming months, and we can’t wait to share them with early access customers soon and the rest of our users in the fall.

If you’re eligible and want to subscribe, visit www.logos.com/early-access.

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Comments

Shaun Corrigan

I have been using Logos for years and have the full feature set. Logos is a daily part of my life and it is a joy to use, both for personal study and devotions as well as for teaching and preaching.

I have always been relieved that Logos is not a subscription only based tool and I have let go of other software and services that have gone down this route. Having heavily invested in the software, I am greatly alarmed by the possibility of Logos becoming exclusively subscription for all new features.

Please keep a one-off purchase option for new features, even if this excludes AI services. I save up for the features and products I need and would not sign up for a monthly subscription. Monthly subscriptions are effectively like a rental and it means a lot to me to know I have definitely purchased something and will not lose it if I don’t continue to pay. Monthly costs continue to rise and the choice of one-off payments to ‘own’ the feature, book or product is important to me.

Thank you for asking for feedback. Please leave your customers the option of one-time purchases for feature sets as well as for books.

Jim Dean

I’ve heard Daniel Norwood (and some others?) suggest that some kind of “credit” system, or “lease to buy” system, so that people could stop renting / subscribing at a given point, and then buy the features as a perpetual ownership addition to the Logos 10 platform we have now -- they’ve suggested this might be a reasonable alternative or bridge.

However, from what I’ve understood from all that’s been communicated by Logos staff, in this thread and in emails, is that the decision they are still mulling over is whether to offer any further perpetual licenses to ANY non-AI features, at ALL, EVER. I don’t think they are at a loss as to know HOW to sell them - that’s easy. They’ve been doing it for three decades. The features will already be IN the code that is ON the local PC. I’m not sure people realize that. The subscription simply sends an unlock to tell the engine on the PC that the user is allowed to implement that feature for that day or month.

Their decision is SOLELY related to their income projections. Will they make more money by trapping users into permanent subscriptions, or lose more money by turning off customers who’ve been faithfully paying for years or decades. The new and future customers that don’t have tens of thousands of dollars invested aren’t trapped - they can more easily choose to walk away, use other tools, whatever … without that prior investment being a factor.

My point here is simple. Logos doesn’t need help knowing HOW to offer both subscriptions AND the option for periodic perpetual license feature upgrade-purchases. They just need to figure out which will make them more money.

If their concern was to do the best for their customers, they would offer both and not force hundreds of thousands or millions of customers to make a difficult, unhappy choice, possibly feeling betrayed in the process. THAT would be the path of integrity.

Rick Ausdahl

In this thread, I see $9.99 all over the place for the "discounted" monthly Logos Pro subscription price, but haven't found what the regular price will be.

Is that somewhere in this thread?

scooter

In this thread, I see $9.99 all over the place for the "discounted" monthly Logos Pro subscription price, but haven't found what the regular price will be.

Is that somewhere in this thread?

No, Rick. This is the Early Bird price, + only it is mentioned.

Rick Ausdahl

Thank you, scooter.

Tim Hensler

I have been using Logos Bible Software for 20 years. I subscribed to Logos Now when it rolled out. I also subscribed to Faithlife Connect when it rolled out. And, I subscribed to Logos Pro when it rolled out (after beta testing the AI functions for a few weeks). Each major rollout was not without some bumps and bugs, but Faithlife resolved those issues, landed on their feet, and as a subscriber, I ended up better off than before the rollout. That tells me Faithlife has the tenacity and resources to make Logos Bible Software better and users better off. I am grateful for their interest in and support of their clients and am looking forward to learning more about the multi-tiered plan they are working on. Mark and/or Phil has said there are currently about 10,000 Logos subscribers on a variety of subscription plans. Seems to me that's a lot of people interested in the concept of subscription plans.

Only a limited amount of information has been shared about Logos Pro because Faithlife has chosen to share their initial thoughts and plans so that we users can share our interests and preferences. Based on their posts, it seems clear they are listening to us and are adjusting their plans to accommodate as many of our needs as they can - after all, that's in their best interest too. If your not sure if this is right for you, please be gracious to Faithlife and kindly share your interests and preferences, then watch what Faithlife actually rolls out before deciding what you will do. Attacking Faithlife and complaining about a plan that has not yet been defined is not helpful.

Bede

Given that this thread has now been running for a couple of weeks and there's been a bit of repetition on some of the questions asked, it it worthwhile for Faithlife to put up a questionnaire asking people what they think or want. This would also make it easier to collate people's opinions. As an initial suggestion, four possible answers to each question: Strongly agree; Mildly agree; Mildly disagree; Strongly disagree. The questions could be along the lines of: I would like a subscription model; I would like to be able to make one-off purchases of feature sets; I would like to be able to subscribe and then buy feature sets at a discount; I am enthusiastic about AI enhancement in Logos; etc.

[Editied to put a space between 'at' and 'a' in the last line.]

Tim Hensler

put up a questionnaire asking people what they think or want. This would also make it easier to collate people's opinions. As an initial suggestion, four possible answers to each question: Strongly agree; Mildly agree; Mildly disagree; Strongly disagree. The questions could be along the lines of: I would like a subscription model; I would like to be able to make one-off purchases of feature sets; I would like to be able to subscribe and then buy feature sets at a discount

[Y] Great idea.

Mark Barnes (Logos)

Given that this thread has now been running for a couple of weeks and there's been a bit of repetition on some of the questions asked, it it worthwhile for Faithlife to put up a questionnaire asking people what they think or want.

We're looking at doing exactly that. Stay tuned.

The Flanary's

"Customers who own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set or subscribe to Faithlife Connect (excluding Starter and Mobile) can purchase the subscription for just $9.99/month. When Logos Pro launches in the fall with the other tiers of subscription, you’ll have the option to maintain your subscription to Logos Pro or switch to one of the other subscription tiers at a continued large discount."

This seems okay, but, I'm really not a fan of subscription based products because after being a faithful sub for years, you lose everything on the minute you unsubscribe. It has always felt a little dishonest to me, is their a plan to include a free to keep resource on a monthly basis? Something more than the current "free" books of the month. Perhaps one volume of a set of our choosing, or a credit amount that can be saved?

I want to reiterate something someone said earlier, I really hate to see Logos going the way of every other secular service in the. Recurring fees that never deliver ownership. aka: rental service

Rick Ausdahl

How much will early access to Logos Pro cost?

Customers who own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set or subscribe to Faithlife Connect (excluding Starter and Mobile) can purchase the subscription for just $9.99/month. When Logos Pro launches in the fall with the other tiers of subscription, you’ll have the option to maintain your subscription to Logos Pro or switch to one of the other subscription tiers at a continued large discount.

Mark, I currently have Logos 10 Silver (full feature set except for the print library and translation features). By what date do I have to upgrade to the full feature set in order to qualify for the discounted Logos Pro subscription rate?

mark preston

For those who like subscriptions this sounds great, early access to new features et al. However I would be very sorry to see the end of the two yearly option to buy the full feature sets as they stand at that time.

Bulking up my library is not what I am looking for anymore but would like to keep my Logos features regularly updated (even if it is every two years), can we be assured that you will not be looking to end this option, even if you are leaning heavily to subscription based feature sets.

For myself at least, a subscription only service would end any future payments.

mark preston

For those who like subscriptions this sounds great, early access to new features et al. However I would be very sorry to see the end of the two yearly option to by the full feature sets as they stand at that time.

For myself at least, a subscription only service would end any future payments.

Dave Hooton

Bulking up my library is not what I am looking for anymore but would like to keep my Logos features regularly updated (even if it is every two years), can we be assured that you will not be looking to end this option

A two-year update is no longer favored but FL could provide an annual update.

Jim Dean

Bulking up my library is not what I am looking for anymore but would like to keep my Logos features regularly updated (even if it is every two years), can we be assured that you will not be looking to end this option

A two-year update is no longer favored but FL could provide an annual update.

Hi, Dave ...

I don't think "2 years" was the point of Mark's comment ... rather, it was the apparently widely shared desire to purchase perpetual license feature upgrades on a regular basis.

I'm unsure of what FL-communications you are basing your comment about "favored" - apparently you've gotten information that a two year cycle for permanent purchase upgrades has been rejected, but that annual upgrades of that type are still in the running. If that's the case, please clarify where you got that information from. It surprised me.

Frank Sauer

I’ve heard Daniel Norwood (and some others?) suggest that some kind of “credit” system, or “lease to buy” system, so that people could stop renting / subscribing at a given point, and then buy the features as a perpetual ownership addition to the Logos 10 platform we have now -- they’ve suggested this might be a reasonable alternative or bridge.

However, from what I’ve understood from all that’s been communicated by Logos staff, in this thread and in emails, is that the decision they are still mulling over is whether to offer any further perpetual licenses to ANY non-AI features, at ALL, EVER. I don’t think they are at a loss as to know HOW to sell them - that’s easy. They’ve been doing it for three decades. The features will already be IN the code that is ON the local PC. I’m not sure people realize that. The subscription simply sends an unlock to tell the engine on the PC that the user is allowed to implement that feature for that day or month.

Their decision is SOLELY related to their income projections. Will they make more money by trapping users into permanent subscriptions, or lose more money by turning off customers who’ve been faithfully paying for years or decades. The new and future customers that don’t have tens of thousands of dollars invested aren’t trapped - they can more easily choose to walk away, use other tools, whatever … without that prior investment being a factor.

My point here is simple. Logos doesn’t need help knowing HOW to offer both subscriptions AND the option for periodic perpetual license feature upgrade-purchases. They just need to figure out which will make them more money.

If their concern was to do the best for their customers, they would offer both and not force hundreds of thousands or millions of customers to make a difficult, unhappy choice, possibly feeling betrayed in the process. THAT would be the path of integrity.

It really is that simple! It's in the code and just needs a license - any refusal to offer the option does indeed lack integrity - why do I believe that? I hear sustainability mentioned frequently - if sustainability was truly as important as it is presented - the purchase option being offered as well only adds to sustainability! How? The feedback in the forums is clearly showing that subscription only is not overwhelmingly appreciated by users andmany have stated they will no longer purchase anything if that is the only option. So that hinders sustainability and turns away many users and many long time users.... It is this exact reason, the feature existing in the code but not being offered for purchase - that gives some the view that Logos is indeed trying to force all users into a subscription, contrary to their statements otherwise....

Yasmin Stephen

Bulking up my library is not what I am looking for anymore but would like to keep my Logos features regularly updated (even if it is every two years), can we be assured that you will not be looking to end this option

A two-year update is no longer favored but FL could provide an annual update.

Hi, Dave ...

I don't think "2 years" was the point of Mark's comment ... rather, it was the apparently widely shared desire to purchase perpetual license feature upgrades on a regular basis.

I'm unsure of what FL-communications you are basing your comment about "favored" - apparently you've gotten information that a two year cycle for permanent purchase upgrades has been rejected, but that annual upgrades of that type are still in the running. If that's the case, please clarify where you got that information from. It surprised me.

This is not what Dave is saying, and I hope we don't get a whole new wave of unfounded speculation on this. Logos has officially said that they are still working on the way forward.

It is not insider knowledge that the two-year cycle is not favored. From the first official post in this thread ...

We’re living in a period of significant technological change, and only a subscription model enables us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built. Many of you don’t want to wait up to two years for improvements that could significantly benefit your Bible study. Subscription also allows us to include AI features which we can’t offer with permanent licenses due to the significant ongoing costs and rapidly changing technology.

Logos subscriptions aren’t new. More than ten thousand people have been subscribing to Logos for nearly a decade. But we’re now embracing subscription for our software because doing so has five distinct advantages.

New users can have much lower upfront costs and try Logos with much less commitment.

It allows us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built, rather than holding them back for a major release every two years. That’s especially important at a time of rapid technological change.

It allows us to include features like AI, which we can’t offer permanent licenses to because of the significant ongoing costs.

It’s a sustainable way of ensuring we can keep delivering improvements for decades to come.

Releasing early and often significantly shortens the feedback loop, enabling us to continually tweak our improvements to ensure they’re really solving the most important things for all our customers.

There are customers who don't want to wait two years for new features, and Logos wants to release new features as they are produced. From these statements, one can conclude, reasonably enough, that Logos no longer favors the two-year cycle. It is not insider knowledge.

Peter_G

I have signed up for the trial of Logos Pro, and am still in the trial period. My question is this: if I continue, and commence paying $9.99US for a period of time, say for two years, what will happen if I discontinue my subscription? Will my installation revert to where it was when I began to subscribe? Will the end-result then be different from my saving up the $9.99US per month, and upgrading (like I have done in the past)?

Tes

I have signed up for the trial of Logos Pro, and am still in the trial period. My question is this: if I continue, and commence paying $9.99US for a period of time, say for two years, what will happen if I discontinue my subscription? Will my installation revert to where it was when I began to subscribe? Will the end-result then be different from my saving up the $9.99US per month, and upgrading (like I have done in the past)?

If you stop the subscription, everything will stop with the subscription.

DMB

Will the end-result then be different from my saving up the $9.99US per month, and upgrading (like I have done in the past)?

Adding to Tes, FL may not be selling you features this year (new, or new to you). Saving would be 'over'. That announcement (sell features, or not) is later this year. And this years' decision doesn't preclude next year's decision. Kind of like weather predicting.

The benefit to FL (sell features vs subscribe) is interesting. Historically, full-features for me, go for maybe $250 or so. Or includable in a package I might want.

- If they continue selling features, I'd continue buying, either FF's or packages (indeed, waiting for a sale currently) . I'd be waiting for any new features.

- If they force subscribe, I wouldn't. I don't Prime, and just canceled a religious-related subscription. I'm a cancel'er. But, I'd likely forgo the big package purchases also. They'd lose the FF amount. But the big package purchase as well.

It's an interesting problem for them.

Sean

The benefit to FL (sell features vs subscribe) is interesting. Historically, full-features for me, go for maybe $250 or so. Or includable in a package I might want.

- If they continue selling features, I'd continue buying, either FF's or packages (indeed, waiting for a sale currently) . I'd be waiting for any new features.

- If they force subscribe, I wouldn't. I don't Prime, and just canceled a religious-related subscription. I'm a cancel'er. But, I'd likely forgo the big package purchases also. They'd lose the FF amount. But the big package purchase as well.

It's an interesting problem for them.

Thinking about it, I'm essentially in the same place. I like upgrading every two years and look forward to the new base packages/libraries that are offered. As I already have most of what I want and practically everything that I need, it's becoming more difficult each round to choose a suitable package. I usually like to go with something that goes well with a full feature package. However, if that is no longer offered, it's quite likely that I'll buy nothing, or only a very small library, the next time a new version (do we still call it that?) is rolled out. I'm not likely to subscribe, certainly not until it offers something of significantly more value that is not AI. I could see myself perhaps subscribing for a few months if it helped with a particular project then letting it lapse after that. I'm certainly not to subscribe in perpetuity with nothing to show for it at the end if my subscription does ever run out (likely from FL pricing it out of my range).

Wolfgang Schneider

... what will happen if I discontinue my subscription? Will my installation revert to where it was when I began to subscribe? Will the end-result then be different from my saving up the $9.99US per month, and upgrading (like I have done in the past)?

After the two years you would revert / fall back to where you were before the subscription period.

The end result will be different in that there may perhaps not be an option to purchase an upgrade feature set as was in the past ... the current marketing strategy for new features seems to be via subscription only and no feature sets for purchase. There have been comments by Faithlife/Logos staff that some consideration is given to suggestions for reconsidering and amending the subscription model with a different "fall back" solution

Also, the $9.99 is only a special offer for now for users who own the L10 full feature set, the more final pricing after the subscription model with several tiers has not been mentioned.

Tes

the $9.99 is only a special offer for now for users who own the L10 full feature set,

Also to Logos connect subscribers.

John Duffy

Also to Logos connect subscribers.

Not so. At least not to all Logos Connect subscribers, if it is available to some. I have an active annual subscription to "Faithlife Connect Essentials - No library (formerly Logos Now)", but have received no information by email about Logos Pro. I only found out about it while browsing the forum a couple of weeks ago, as I occasionally do.

GaoLu

Will the end-result then be different from my saving up the $9.99US per month, and upgrading (like I have done in the past)?

Adding to Tes, FL may not be selling you features this year (new, or new to you). Saving would be 'over'. That announcement (sell features, or not) is later this year. And this years' decision doesn't preclude next year's decision. Kind of like weather predicting.

The benefit to FL (sell features vs subscribe) is interesting. Historically, full-features for me, go for maybe $250 or so. Or includable in a package I might want.

- If they continue selling features, I'd continue buying, either FF's or packages (indeed, waiting for a sale currently) . I'd be waiting for any new features.

- If they force subscribe, I wouldn't. I don't Prime, and just canceled a religious-related subscription. I'm a cancel'er. But, I'd likely forgo the big package purchases also. They'd lose the FF amount. But the big package purchase as well.

It's an interesting problem for them.

Same here. I've always bought way up. With a Subscription, I won't. Many past big buyers may fit there. I suspect that will be a major economic consideration for Logos. Pluses and minuses--I suppose marketing figures that out using calculus and maybe common sense.

Frank Sauer

Just wondering, I know I've seen others besides myself comment that they will cut their purchases if we are stuck with subscription only - am I the only one looking at some of the March Madness deals and getting more frustrated with Faithlife just not making a solid and final decision?

There are a couple deals that really intrigue me, but I cannot put them in the cart for purchase because I have no guarantee that I will not be forced into a subscription at some point in the future...

If there was a definitive statement that we would continue to have the same fairly priced access to purchased Feature Sets, I'd feel a little better about considering a purchase of resources....

The longer it takes for a definitive answer, the more it feels that this is an attempt to eventually force us into a subscription - it cannot be this difficult for FL to see what we as users can... Features already coded into the engine and activated by a license have no reason to not be offered for purchase (unless it is an AI related feature that has an ongoing fee attached to its usage), Not offering the purchase option is leaving money on the table and pushing users away....

It would be interesting to know how much money, which leads to sustainability is going down the drain for FL due to this decision/lack of decision.... A few hundred in deals that I have considered in this sale are swirling down the drain, not to mention the upgrades that I always purchase....

What a time to drop this subscription only nonsense - in the middle of a big resource sales promotion complete with a plethora of the unknown SMH

Frank Sauer

If there was a definitive statement that we would continue to have the same fairly priced access to purchased Feature Sets, I'd feel a little better about considering a purchase of resources....

What a time to drop this subscription only nonsense - in the middle of a big resource sales promotion complete with a plethora of the unknown SMH

Bill Coley

I’ve heard Daniel Norwood (and some others?) suggest that some kind of “credit” system, or “lease to buy” system, so that people could stop renting / subscribing at a given point, and then buy the features as a perpetual ownership addition to the Logos 10 platform we have now -- they’ve suggested this might be a reasonable alternative or bridge.

The company that develops the RAW image editing software I use last year instituted a subscription/perpetual license hybrid model that has generated less heat than would have one rooted in subscriptions only. FWIW, here's an outline:

SUBSCRIPTIONS are available at monthly or annual rates, the annual rate offering a 38% saving over the monthly rate x 12.
PERPETUAL LICENSES, at full price, are always available, but are eligible only for bug fixes (what informally are called "point releases"). For example, a customer who buys release 14.3 receives without charge all releases numbered 14.3.x, but must pay the full perpetual license fee again to receive the features and functionality of version 14.4, 14.5, etc.
The interesting addition to the model is what the company describes as the "off ramp" it builds into its subscription plan. Each consecutive full subscription year creates for its holder an additional 20% discount off the price of a perpetual license. That is, after one year of a subscription, a customer may purchase a perpetual license for whatever release is then-current at 20% off the full price; after two consecutive subscription years, said discount rises to 40%. Each successive year then adds 20% to the discount so that after five consecutive years as a subscriber, a customer receives a perpetual license for the then-current release at no charge (with the same "point release" limitations as reported above).

I dislike subscriptions intensely, but I find value in this hybrid model. As a result, I have a perpetual license to the last version the company released under its previous model, and I now subscribe 1) because I bought new perpetual licenses every year previously, so the annual expense was already in my budget; and 2) I like the "off ramp" to a free perpetual license after five years.

Could something resembling this model work for Logos?

Bob Price

This is a great idea, and it seems like it could work. I'm assuming that if you exercised your 100% discount, you'd then start back at 0% off with a new subscription. This approach would allow people to get back in when they feel like there are compelling features drawing them back, and they can get off the train if they need to decrease their spending, without losing the new features. I think the key to this approach will be separating feature sets from libraries.

Like others have said, I'm not a fan of subscriptions, but there are some compelling advantages. For example, a brand-new user can get in for a low monthly price, and avoid the potentially high start-up cost, depending on what books they want. This could open up Logos to a whole new generation of users who might not have taken the chance otherwise.

Another exciting possibility is that of church-based subscriptions, whereby a church could provide subscriptions to its members. This could potentially be another great source of new users, and additionally, churches could train their members on Logos and not have to worry about what level each person may or may not have.

There's a whole new realm of things this could open up!

Bill Coley

I'm assuming that if you exercised your 100% discount, you'd then start back at 0% off with a new subscription.

Your assumption is correct, Bob. Thanks for drawing the inference I should have made clear in my previous post. Customers re-launch their journeys toward a free perpetual license after five consecutive subscription years (a missed subscription year returns a customer to the starting line), OR if they they purchase such a license after any of subscription years 1-4.

Perhaps the biggest caveat in this model, at least with the image editing software developer, is the provision that it reserves the right to change the terms of the model at any time. Five years is forever in the software world, so I have no certainty that I'll actually make it to the 100% discount. But, it's a good company that I think will do what it can to make things right for its customers. Logos certainly strikes me as such a company as well.

Christopher Randall

I've read through like 10 pages of this forum. And I think I see that Logos is heading towards a subscription future for financial reasons. I like Bill Coley's example of the company that develops the RAW image editing software for a subscription model and if I had my preference, it would be this route. Yet, I also remember reading on one of the first few pages of this forum that this would put more work on Logos and make it more complicated in coding. But my take is, if Logos is going to go the Subscription route after having a purchasable license route, then they need to do the work. Stop trying to go the cheap route. Make your product the best.

I am someone who likes to own what I am paying. Subscription is not owning, but theoretically renting. Once I stop paying, a.k.a. renting, I wouldn't get the features anymore. The problem with subscriptions is that every company seems to be going in that direction. If I want to do art, most programs now require a subscription; If I want to have a note-writing/storage application, most of the good ones now are subscriptions (unless you were blessed by being an early customer); if I want to have a fitness tracker these days, that usually requires a subscription. In fact, I own a farm as a ministry, there are now subscriptions for programs that help manage that stuff. My point is, if I pay subscriptions for everything electronic I use whether that be on my tablet, laptop, etc..I am looking at a lot of money. Sure, I can get all the "new features," but I'm not rich. I am a pastor at a small church. I am in ministry not for the money, but for the people.

I have been using Logos to study God's Word, to create sermons, to create teaching opportunities, to help people know Jesus and live for him better. I want to keep that without worrying about my finances. If Logos goes only subscription for the new features, I foresee it will be a sting to its usefulness in the future. I only got the subscription to Logos Pro because I understand that AI is being outsourced and I understand the money involved in using that at the moment (though I'm sure this price will go up like everything else). I also want to see it use technology to its fullest for the advancement of the Kingdom. But besides that, if Logos can create features that are in-house...they should be able to be purchasable. As your customer, that is what I have gotten in the past and that is what I want now. I do not want to be paying for 1000 subscriptions to live in a technology age, I just want the program. If I want it to do something new, let me buy the updates.

Dave Hooton

PERPETUAL LICENSES, at full price, are always available, but are eligible only for bug fixes (what informally are called "point releases"). For example, a customer who buys release 14.3 receives without charge all releases numbered 14.3.x, but must pay the full perpetual license fee again to receive the features and functionality of version 14.4, 14.5, etc.

FL would need a different model for the features it offers as the app versioning is not applicable to its features e.g. an initial offering of features followed by new offerings after Beta testing. Thereafter, they would be eligible for bug fixes as long as they continue subscribing.

The interesting addition to the model is what the company describes as the "off ramp" it builds into its subscription plan. Each consecutive full subscription year creates for its holder an additional 20% discount off the price of a perpetual license...

Something like that would be interesting for subscribers, particularly if they choose to stop subscribing at some point.

Those preferring only a perpetual license could have different incentives (e.g. their current investment in Logos), but the cost still has to account for the free support they would continue to receive i.e. bug fixes and app updates with its inbuilt features for books, searching, etc. They could have a temporary license to check out new features during Beta testing.

But don't forget the nagging problem of AI, which will determine what features can effectively have a Perpetual license without a subscription i.e. you can have Sermon/Homily Builder and Search without the current AI functionality, but not have Summarize and Bible Insights (v.33 beta).

Erik

If I've read the entire thread correctly, anyone that currently subscribes to Connect Essentials and does not separately own the Full Feature Set will eventually need to purchase a higher tier of Logos Pro to obtain the same datasets/features they currently enjoy under Connect Essentials. Is that correct?

Alan Hart

WOW, I did not get any notice of this issue. I am a very engaged user of Logos 10 with more than 17,000 resources. I only found this thread because someone posted in MP SEMINARS.

I have not changed my email address or anything else on my account.

I have a lot of catch up but maybe not in time to make an informed decision.

This is very disturbing. I don't want to lose my access to $25,000 worth of investment.

MJ. Smith

. I don't want to lose my access to $25,000 worth of investment.

The proposed subscription makes absolutely no difference in you access to your resources.

scooter

WOW, I did not get any notice of this issue. I am a very engaged user of Logos 10 with more than 17,000 resources. I only found this thread because someone posted in MP SEMINARS.

I have not changed my email address or anything else on my account.

I have a lot of catch up but maybe not in time to make an informed decision.

This is very disturbing. I don't want to lose my access to $25,000 worth of investment.

Alan: see the post above yours. Click survey. See Question 2. There are 2 posts by Mark Barnes you can read to find out what's up.

You can exit the survey without filling it out by using your browser's 'X.'

Ram Teodosio

I guess it is not the resources but the ability to tap into the resources with the newer features. I feel like not having those new features, unless I subscribe, feels similar to losing "access." I hope that eventually, the full new features, will become of future version of Logos (L11, etc.), for those that subscription payment may not work for them.

Dave Hooton

I hope that eventually, the full new features, will become of future version of Logos (L11, etc.), for those that subscription payment may not work for them.

That hope, a Perpetual license, is under consideration, but don't think in terms of Logos 11, etc as new features will be made available to subscribers fairly frequently. Logos 10 may be the last of that genre of "packaged" releases, including base packages for books, as the two year release cycle will no longer apply.

Stephen

Rather unfortunate for me. I am not a teacher, preacher, student but regular church attender and Deacon that likes to dive deep in things and have the tools to do so. I understand I will "always" be able to access the large library I bought but it seems like I will not see any more features once this releases. I did not mind paying for upgrade occasionally but a monthly bill for someone like me in order to get new software features (don't care about the AI stuff) does not make sense.

Subscriptions are and have been all the rage. Steady monthly income, keeping customers on the hook may make business sense. Eventually, consumers will rebel...

I have a pre-order that I am now strongly considering cancelling only because I know, from experience, that eventually access to old things will become a problem.

Stephen

Subscriptions are and have been all the rage. Steady monthly income, keeping customers on the hook may make business sense. Eventually, consumers will rebel...

I have a pre-pub order that I am cancelling only because I know, from experience, that eventually access to old things will become a problem.

Rev. Amelia A Price

As with many of the posters here, I have been a Logos user since LIbronix days and have been along for the ride through Logos Now, and all of the introductions and new features created since then. As a reality check - the computer upon which my first version of LIbronix was installed has long since been recycled. I still have the 6 1/2" floppy drives it came on. But I no longer have a machine that can read them or a device to plug into a current machine to utilize what is on them. Technology is ever changing. Business models change and evolve. While I am not fully on board with this change, like so many have already stated, subscriptions are the way software is now being developed and rolled out.

I think I need to wait and see what the fall brings. Some things I would like to see: I would like to see AI separated out as a tier to purchase. Given the info rolled out so far, I am not sure that is possible. I do not like the idea of temporary books. Let me purchase what I need and want, when I need and want them. And if temporary books are a thing, make it easy to purchase them or increase the price a bit and allow us to choose what books we want. Please, be clear about tiers and pricing. In a professional setting, annual subs are much easier to deal with. And clear definitions are vital.

Specific question regarding "credits": I see a post where credits are defined as "thousands per month" as a general and vague descriptor. This is new. I understand that. But, depending on how many there are and how long it takes to use them, can unused "credits" flow to the next billing period? Even a percentage of them?

I do have to say that I was a subscriber to Logos Now. I chose not to continue it. I am generally not fond of software subscriptions, but I am aware that the market is moving that way. Logos has to get on the boat or be left behind. I do not want that. I want the company to succeed, be able to hire and pay well, good, talented people and be able to prosper. Part of what I see in these forums is reaction to yet more change. After and during a period of intense and in many cases unwanted change. Logos has to be feeling some of that too.

I suggest we all take a breath. Lets see what happens next.

Thanks for reaching this far.

Frank Hodges

One thing that I would like to provide some constructive feedback on: as of right now (presumably until fall), there is no option for a new user to subscribe to anything. Faithlife Connect is not an option, and unless they purchase the full feature set, early access is not an option.

I would implore you to reconsider offering something for the new user to subscribe to during the interim. ~6 months is a long time for someone to hold off trialing a software, and this may cause some prospective customers to dive into an alternative software. From what I've seen, once someone invests any money into one software, acquisition of this particular customer proves to be a lot harder than acquiring a customer who has yet to invest any money into a particular product.

Maybe for the time being you can offer Connect Essentials as "Logos Connect" and price it to the tier that you are considering the new subscription pricing. I would assume that the reason you're not already doing this is because $9.99 isn't going to be the subscription pricing for new users, so offering Essentials at $14.99 for the time being may get them used to paying the $15/month and make the transition to the new subscription painless and effortless. From a marketing standpoint, most new users wouldn't mind sacrificing a few perks they've only enjoyed for ~6 months for the new AI perks that will be available at launch.

Please consider this, or any alternative for the new users that may be searching for Bible Study software from now until Fall.

Brian

Having spent thousands of dollars on logos over the years, and not being interested in or able to afford a subscription model, can you please provide concrete assurance that:

1. Logos will continue to be available on a purchase rather than subscription model and that development will continue (even if this means new features will be delivered on a slower basis going forward)?

2. That Logos will continue to be updated to ensure it continues to work with newer versions of the Windows / Mac operating systems?

Dave Hooton

Maybe for the time being you can offer Connect Essentials as "Logos Connect" and price it to the tier that you are considering the new subscription pricing. I would assume that the reason you're not already doing this is because $9.99 isn't going to be the subscription pricing for new users, so offering Essentials at $14.99 for the time being may get them used to paying the $15/month and make the transition to the new subscription painless and effortless. From a marketing standpoint, most new users wouldn't mind sacrificing a few perks they've only enjoyed for ~6 months for the new AI perks that will be available at launch.

At present, the path for new users would be https://www.logos.com/free-edition and/or taking advantage of the discount on base packages, not creating a temporary "Connect" tier when future pricing is not finalised. I think Marketing would not mind at all, but new users may have a different take on such a speculative scheme.

Peter_G

Having spent thousands of dollars on logos over the years, and not being interested in or able to afford a subscription model, can you please provide concrete assurance that:

1. Logos will continue to be available on a purchase rather than subscription model and that development will continue (even if this means new features will be delivered on a slower basis going forward)?

2. That Logos will continue to be updated to ensure it continues to work with newer versions of the Windows / Mac operating systems?

Exactly my situation and questions, as I'm sure it is with thousands of other faithful users.

Dave Hooton

can you please provide concrete assurance

Sorry Brian, but concrete is not available[:D]

1. Logos will continue to be available on a purchase rather than subscription model and that development will continue (even if this means new features will be delivered on a slower basis going forward)?

Purchase or perpetual license is under consideration. But it will not be the two year upgrade with which you are familiar, so don't expect a Logos 11 delivery.

The proposed subscription is the "lifeline" for the delivery of new features. Subscribers will be able to access them as they are developed.

2. That Logos will continue to be updated to ensure it continues to work with newer versions of the Windows / Mac operating systems?

Yes for subscribers and current users. But it is not clear what will happen for new users who come off subscription not owning any features but having invested in books. This is more complicated than I can present here, but

it seems that purchase options should be available for features
Free support and updates have been the tradition provided users keep up to date with their operating systems.

Frank Hodges

At present, the path for new users would be https://www.logos.com/free-edition and/or taking advantage of the discount on base packages, not creating a temporary "Connect" tier when future pricing is not finalised. I think Marketing would not mind at all, but new users may have a different take on such a speculative scheme.

I didn't necessarily mean for them to create a new tier for Connect during the interim, rather I meant for them to continue with at least one Connect tier (I would assume Essentials would make the most sense) until the rollout in Fall as to not leave any prospects on the table. Granted, there's not another Bible study software that offers a subscription which is comparable to Logos, so it is a niche market to begin with. But if it were me, I would want to acquire all prospects I can during the interim.

Armin

At present, the path for new users would be https://www.logos.com/free-edition and/or taking advantage of the discount on base packages, not creating a temporary "Connect" tier when future pricing is not finalised. I think Marketing would not mind at all, but new users may have a different take on such a speculative scheme.
I didn't necessarily mean for them to create a new tier for Connect during the interim, rather I meant for them to continue with at least one Connect tier (I would assume Essentials would make the most sense) until the rollout in Fall as to not leave any prospects on the table. Granted, there's not another Bible study software that offers a subscription which is comparable to Logos, so it is a niche market to begin with. But if it were me, I would want to acquire all prospects I can during the interim.

My Logos Now subscription is up for renewal in May but it looks like the new subscription model will only be available later in the Fall. It is unclear to me what to do in May, if I should renew my Logos Now subscription or switch to Logos Pro.

Brian

Sorry Brian, but concrete is not available

Ok, I can live without the concrete.

The minimum for me, having spent so much money on Logos over many years is:

1. I don't need new features, but must retain ongoing access to existing features (in addition, I should really be able to buy new features)

2. I should be able to buy new books and for them to be fully compatible / integrated into my existing library and feature set.

3. It should be updated / upgradeable (at reasonable cost) to ensure full compatibility with newer versions of operating systems (or to add features).

4. The software should be updated for bug-fixes.

My fear is that in 3 ~ 5 years, loyal users who've spent thousands on Verbum / Logos, will be told their version of the product is now unsupported and will not be updated for OS changes or bug fixes, nor will they be able to buy additional books because "the underlying database structure / book format has changed".

I am a prison chaplain, earning a fraction of what I used to, and approaching retirement age. I am genuinely worried that my significant investment in Logos will turn out to be the equivalent of an electronic door-stop.

In the past I have splashed out to buy full versions of Photoshop, Music Notation Software etc - just to dabble with them and I had the spare cash at the time. I could never justify, and never did pay for subscriptions to them when their pricing models changed. I just stopped using them. There must be a body of users like me out there who value an ownership model. Verbum / Logos is different: I use it extensively, but again, a one off purchase when I had the cash, or occasional upgrade without ongoing subscription, I can handle. A subscription I can't.

I'm hoping Logos has an ethos consistent with its faith-based product and in good conscience will not let our investment go to waste.

Mike Binks

Greetings Brian

1. I don't need new features, but must retain ongoing access to existing features

I haven't read anything that leads me to believe that Logos is changing its promise that you will always have access to everything you have paid for.

2. I should be able to buy new books and for them to be fully compatible / integrated into my existing library and feature set.

I cannot envisage a scenario that would involve Logos removing the option to buy resources. I would think that it will take many years before the technology develops to a state that new resources become incompatible with existing features - when that happens, based on your experience over the years of dealing with Logos how do you think the company will react to a much smaller very elderly group who need updates?

3. It should be updated / upgradeable (at reasonable cost) to ensure full compatibility with newer versions of operating systems (or to add features).

4. The software should be updated for bug-fixes.

As the programme has been upgraded for free for the whole life of the company what makes you think this is going to change?

Michael Mura

Question. When I do an AI "Smart Search" many of the results from resources show a closed padlock icon indicating that I do not have access to those resources. Is there a way that I can filter out any resources that I do not have access to? Or, prioritize resources that I do have access to? It is not helpful when I have to scroll past so many resources that I have no access to.

Graham Criddle

Hi Michael - and welcome to the forums

Is there a way that I can filter out any resources that I do not have access to?

A Smart All Search will search all books in the Logos catalog

But a Smart Books Search will just search books that you own

And in a Books Search you can switch between Precise / Smart searching using the dropdown

Hope this helps, Graham

Mike Heavin

I see some great potential in this offering. I do have some questions I hoped you might be able to clarify:

I have the annual Faithlife Connect subscription, which is valid until 2025. Is the Logos Pro early access considered a supplemental subscription or a replacement one?
With the different set of books offered, will I lose access to the books I have been "renting" these past years?
How will the subscription price be affected by any books or resources I have purchased outright while using Faithlife Connect?
If I enroll in the early access trial, will I lose access to features included in the Faithlife Connect subscription for which I have already paid?
Do you have a complete list of the features I would lose by using Logos Pro to help me determine whether it makes financial sense to use Logos Pro before my current subscription ends?

Thank you.

Graham Criddle

Hi Mike - and welcome to the forums.

In the post that started this thread Mark states:

Where does this leave subscriptions like Faithlife Connect and Preaching Suite?

I have the annual Faithlife Connect subscription, which is valid until 2025. Is the Logos Pro early access considered a supplemental subscription or a replacement one?

As per Mark's statement, it should be seen as supplemental at the moment.

With the different set of books offered, will I lose access to the books I have been "renting" these past years?

You won't lose anything if you connect with your Connect subscription. If you cancel it then you would lose access to the books it made available

How will the subscription price be affected by any books or resources I have purchased outright while using Faithlife Connect?

The subscription price for Early Access Logos Pro does not vary based on books / features we have bought / subscribed to earlier.

If I enroll in the early access trial, will I lose access to features included in the Faithlife Connect subscription for which I have already paid?

If you have bought features you won't lose them. If you have access to features through your Connect subscription and cancel that, you would lose access to those features

Do you have a complete list of the features I would lose by using Logos Pro to help me determine whether it makes financial sense to use Logos Pro before my current subscription ends?

I haven't seen such a list - the general advise seems to be to wait until there is more clarity on the impact on current subscriptions later in the year. If you do want to check out Logos Pro, I would advise doing it as an add-on subscription if you feel it added value to you.

Hope this helps, Graham

Frank Sauer

For those of us that will not be subscribing - I was just informed by Customer Service that as of now we will be waiting until Fall to find out if we will be offered the option to own Logos versions going forward.....

So, they lost my purchases I was looking at from March Madness, the April Sale had a few and now, I will not bother looking at anything resource wise going forward.

For a company so concerned about revenue, they seem to care less about the number of us that have made it clear that we will not be purchasing anything, have cancelled pre pubs, etc - until we have the guarantee that we will continue to have the traditional option of purchase going forward.....

Time to check out the conversion sale on the other website that has been generated specifically in response to the number of users upset with the subscription option.... It was good while it lasted - but the days of care for long term customers is gone IMHO.... I remember getting contacted by Bob, Dan or Phil if something even smelled of frustration in a forum post - now..... Well - no more presentations encouraging potential customers of the benefit of Logos over other options - I'll never promote a subscription only option.

Aaron Hamilton

To be fair, I understand why it may be taking some time to finalize decisions. My disappointment won't set in unless and until there is no mention of feature purchase options in the Fall. I believe that would cause quite a stir (or earthquake?) amongst the user base. Management needs to understand that this is not only about the subscription model. It is also about AI. A significant portion of their user base is extremely suspicious about AI and does not want to be forced into a model that will require a subscription including AI in order to gain the newest features. To not include feature purchase options would be a huge slap in the face to many long-time customers.

DMB

For those of us that will not be subscribing - I was just informed by Customer Service that as of now we will be waiting until Fall to find out if we will be offered the option to own Logos versions going forward.....

That sounds ominous, though if we take Mark at his word (for the foreseeable future ... this year), I fully expect forced subscriptions for features not presently owned.

I'd thought to go ahead with purchasing the features I don't have. But then, I don't really need them. And I also canceled my planned Ortho-Platinum purchase too .. basically button up Logos for the duration.

I don't agree, a company sits on a planned major customer dislocation for 6 months. The calculation preceded the announced threat. More likely, arguments inside FL.

Boaz Prince

I am a relatively new user and don't understand a lot of this. I have been saving money to buy a library package (like the Reformed Portfolio) that I can own. Will this option be still available after Logos moves to the subscription model?

MJ. Smith

Welcome to the forums.

Will this option be still available after Logos moves to the subscription model?

Yes, most of the discussion revolves around features rather than libraries.

Chris Lane

we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you

Please continue the option to purchase the software. In short, subscriptions are a nonstarter for many.

Feel free to quit reading at this point, I'm not sure that what follows offers anything more than the thesis above; if nothing else, it is an offer at a transparent, knee-jerk reaction that, I suspect, isn't unique or idiosyncratic. I have seen my commitment to Logos over the past 20+ years as an investment, and despite reading and understanding the reasons given, I would see a subscription-only model as a clear signal of putting profits over the relationship that Logos has built with its user base. The fact of the matter is that there are alternative options (even a spectrum of models) to simply going full subscription model. A decision to not implement one of these alternatives will be a conscious decision and will communicate to users accordingly.

Logos subscriptions aren’t new. More than ten thousand people have been subscribing to Logos for nearly a decade.

I would submit that this 10,000+ may indicate more than what it seems to at first blush. In 2014, Logos indicated that they were approaching 2 million users. Maybe this was an estimate, and even granting that it may not be entirely accurate, it's at least somewhat of an indicator of a user base. True, subscriptions are not new, and this figure of 10,000+ continual subscribers–a mere fraction of the user base–does seem to presently offer signals of users' interest in subscription models.
As to these five distinct advantages:
New users can have much lower upfront costs and try Logos with much less commitment.While the subscription model is not the only and, arguably, not even the best way to achieve this goal, it seems to be a thin reason, indeed, for subjecting the entire user base to a subscription. It might be reasonably argued that a subscription prioritizes new users over longevity, invariably deprioritizing the once-new user after they are in the door. Again, this intentional decision will communicate priorities and motivations, regardless of how it is pitched and marketed.
It allows us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built, rather than holding them back for a major release every two years.This could also be seen as keeping users in a state of constant, glorified alpha testing. Some may want this right away, and some may prefer to wait another year or so until the product is more polished. A purchase path would allow each segment of the user base to operate within the program in the way they prefer. All of these points, but especially this one and number five, make it sound like Agenda's so-called "cash cow" model would possibly make more sense of things on the feature side of the program.
It allows us to include features like AI, which we can’t offer permanent licenses to because of the significant ongoing costs.Why not allow the user to assume the cost for each's own AI usage–though, not via a subscription–as is the current common practice? In the vein of allowing users to use their own API if they find these features valuable. Why group the entire user base together into a subscription model for one of the features that will have varying degrees of usage from user to user?
It’s a sustainable way of ensuring we can keep delivering improvements for decades to come.This model within the current subscription economy, with its subscription fatigue, etc, has not yet borne itself out over decades. Sure, this is a business that needs to generate profit and operate sustainably. Even granting this fact, a move to a complete subscription model will alienate a portion of their users & this act alone communicates different priorities than the Logos that I've known, one that wants to equip and empower all believers.
Releasing early and often significantly shortens the feedback loop, enabling us to continually tweak our improvements to ensure they’re really solving the most important things for all our customers.See concerns with #2.
The five "distinct advantages" that have been identified as implications of the subscription model seem to not always be distinct advantages–at least not from every vantage point. They certainly don't seem justify a wholesale jump to a subscription only model.

Boaz Prince

Thank you!

Chris Lane

I think it’s worth taking a step back to recognize a few things:

Considering the metrics of this thread vs others on the forum. In a month, this thread has amassed nearly 1,000 comments, with over 200K views, and has started spin-off threads while the average thread has a couple dozen comments and over 1 or 2 hundred typically constitutes a large thread. It’s obvious that there are strong feelings about this topic and that Logos has received a great deal of feedback on this issue. They will not be ignorant of user base sentiments in whatever decision that they will make. But it should be recognized that the atypical nature of the response to this post/thread do offer indications of the user sentiment that Logos is looking for.
This thread has obviously struck a chord and this is because many of us have felt an atypical commitment and affinity to Logos in a way that we don’t to other products or companies that we deal with. In short, we love Logos and feel a connection with the libraries that each of us have curated. Thank you for this fantastic tool.
These questions have been put on the forum and user feedback has been elicited. I am very thankful for this opportunity and it is truly commendable if the sentiments expressed here actually make it to the ears of the decision makers. If this is the case, thank you for the continued conversation with the user base.

So, thank you for Logos, the thread, and to Mark, Phil, & co. for facilitating.

Lynden O. Williams

These questions have been put on the forum and user feedback has been elicited. I am very thankful for this opportunity and it is truly commendable if the sentiments expressed here actually make it to the ears of the decision makers. If this is the case, thank you for the continued conversation with the user base.

I have not read most of the comments on the thread. You are on point that Logos is taking notice of the feedback.

Mike Childs

This thread has obviously struck a chord and this is because many of us have felt an atypical commitment and affinity to Logos in a way that we don’t to other products or companies that we deal with. In short, we love Logos and feel a connection with the libraries that each of us have curated. Thank you for this fantastic tool.

These questions have been put on the forum and user feedback has been elicited. I am very thankful for this opportunity and it is truly commendable if the sentiments expressed here actually make it to the ears of the decision makers. If this is the case, thank you for the continued conversation with the user base.

Well said, Chris. Some will want to take the plunge and subscribe. But I am one that would never ever consider doing that. I am happy with the Logos software I have bought. I am not especially interested in "new features" or AI. Anything that makes the information in Library more accessible would interest me, but not at the expense of a monthly fee.

Many people have larger Logos libraries, but I am approaching 10,000 resources. I will (hopefully) be able to continue to purchase books for my Logos library. But I will not rent a single book ever.

Chris is correct to point out that many of us "love Logos and feel a connection with the libraries that each of us have curated." There is a deep loyalty that we feel to Logos. We understand that Logos Bible Software must do what it takes to keep the company financially healthy. But I think there is going to be more resistance to monthly rental fees than is expected. Regardless, I wish Logos well. There is risk involved in such a move.

Tes

But I will not rent a single book ever.

I've seen the 430 books, but I've only found one that I don't own, and that's not relevant to me. I am against renting books. I want to own the books I purchase as well as the features. That doesn't mean I don't subscribe. I may subscribe to the same amount as I have subscribed to Logos connect as long as it is useful to me. But I am not interested in renting or borrowing resources.

mark preston

Sad to say but it looks as though I'll be saving some money this year for a change, I always looked forward to the new version releases but a subscription doesn't appeal.

"We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates."

Purchasing for me is the only way forward.

Brian

Absolutely right Mark.

The owners of Logos are interested in a subscription model for one reason only; the same reason other commercial software providers use it: to generate more profit. A side-effect of this may be faster rollout of updates / new features, but this is incidental.

One factor Logos are not attaching enough weight to is that unlike users of many commercial products, Logos users don't typically earn any income as a result of using their software: we use it to grow our faith and love of God and to share that with others in our parishes and communities. There's no money in it for us, so the regular expenditure to maintain a subscription cannot be justified. The company is applying a profit maximising approach to a customer base that that operates on a totally different paradigm.

Purchasing is the only way forward for me too. And if that means Logos 10 is deprecated and ultimately fails to work as it currently does due to OS changes, I will be justified in feeling ripped off.

Christopher Esget

Absolutely right Mark.

The owners of Logos are interested in a subscription model for one reason only; the same reason other commercial software providers use it: to generate more profit. A side-effect of this may be faster rollout of updates / new features, but this is incidental.

One factor Logos are not attaching enough weight to is that unlike users of many commercial products, Logos users don't typically earn any income as a result of using their software: we use it to grow our faith and love of God and to share that with others in our parishes and communities. There's no money in it for us, so the regular expenditure to maintain a subscription cannot be justified. The company is applying a profit maximising approach to a customer base that that operates on a totally different paradigm.

Purchasing is the only way forward for me too. And if that means Logos 10 is deprecated and ultimately fails to work as it currently does due to OS changes, I will be justified in feeling ripped off.

Can we be certain that this is simply about generating more profit? I suspect it could be about a more stable revenue flow.

I like the idea of renting a library. There are many reference books I can’t afford to own. I would certainly pay to access a great physical library, I see this as similar. With streaming music services, one pays to rent their catalog. I would absolutely pay to rent the Logos “catalog.” Let’s give them a chance before writing them off.

Chris Lane

One factor Logos are not attaching enough weight to is that unlike users of many commercial products, Logos users don't typically earn any income as a result of using their software: we use it to grow our faith and love of God and to share that with others in our parishes and communities. There's no money in it for us, so the regular expenditure to maintain a subscription cannot be justified. The company is applying a profit maximising approach to a customer base that that operates on a totally different paradigm.

The other segment of the user base is one that does use it for their jobs as pastors, teachers, missionaries, etc. Those in vocational ministry are precisely the crowd who are typically underpaid (except for a select few within the teacher category) and who a subscription will be very hard on.

DMM

One factor Logos are not attaching enough weight to is that unlike users of many commercial products, Logos users don't typically earn any income as a result of using their software: we use it to grow our faith and love of God and to share that with others in our parishes and communities. There's no money in it for us, so the regular expenditure to maintain a subscription cannot be justified. The company is applying a profit maximising approach to a customer base that that operates on a totally different paradigm.
The other segment of the user base is one that does use it for their jobs as pastors, teachers, missionaries, etc. Those in vocational ministry are precisely the crowd who are typically underpaid (except for a select few within the teacher category) and who a subscription will be very hard on.

Additionally, I would also wonder how it might effect Logos being gifted to others. From a personal example, I setup a Logos account for a young man from church, adding all the free books to it as they come. He uses it on his phone. I had always planned on buying him a package upon him graduating from high school. But I would never consider buying him a subscription.

I would also assume that others who would otherwise purchase Logos as a gift for someone would also be hesitant to instead pay for a subscription. It would be kind of like buying them a really nice commentary set, knowing that they probably won't realize the usefulness and value of it at first, but one day they will, and it's a good investment in them. But if you knew they only had temporary access to it for 1 year, and you're not sure they would get a whole lot out of it right now, you might rethink that.

Brian

Can we be certain that this is simply about generating more profit? I suspect it could be about a more stable revenue flow.

I like the idea of renting a library. There are many reference books I can’t afford to own. I would certainly pay to access a great physical library, I see this as similar. With streaming music services, one pays to rent their catalog. I would absolutely pay to rent the Logos “catalog.” Let’s give them a chance before writing them off.

The stable revenue flow is a very useful side-effect, but in my experience in chartered accounting practice and as a Finance Director, no company moves to a subscription basis without expecting to enhance its profit.

I may be prepared to pay to access a great physical library I don't own - I just don't want to have to pay to be assured of ongoing access to the great digital library that I already own because the rules have been changed on me.

diederick pütter

Definitely not interested in subscription packages. This is where my journey with logos will end.

Sam Shelton

Definitely not interested in subscription packages. This is where my journey with logos will end.

You certainly have that right of course. I for one, will continue to use Logos for as long as I can, whether through subscription or not. If subscription allows me to have the ability to study deeper and quicker, aiding me in using my time wisely as I prepare for all my ministry, I will indeed find a way to pay for the subscription. If down the road, my ministry slows to the point that I am doing more personal study only, I may not need the subscription. One thing that I am not going to do is throw these thousands of dollars’ worth of books into the recycle bin. For me at least, doing so would make me a poor steward of the tools that God has given me.

Bruce Bryan

I agree with you, Sam

Kevin Houghtaling

Yours is one of the more reasoned responses to this never-ending thread. I keep coming back just to see if anything more is officially posted. Logos support should just cap this thread and open another when there is something more to announce.

Kevin Houghtaling

Sam Shelton

Thanks, Bruce and Kevin.

I also agree with you Kevin that it would be a good idea to go ahead and cap this thread as it has 48 pages with 956 posts. It does appear to be repetitious with most every idea having been shared at one time or another.

I would also say thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts in this thread about something that we all find very important to us — the future of Logos.

Anderson Abreu

I've been reading this thread since day one and have posted since the third page. I've noticed that many people are rushing to assume something that hasn't been said at any point:

(1) we will lose access to libraries already purchased;

(2) not being able to buy more books;

(3) no longer being able to buy packages as before;

(4) losing software support or updates.

None of this was put forward as Faithlife's intention. In fact, practically all of these points have been denied in advance since Mark's first post. What the new subscriptions will replace are the existing subscriptions as stated in Mark's first post: "The subscription will have several tiers and eventually replace Preaching Suite, Faithlife Connect, and other Logos feature sets."

I think what's really happening is that many are disappointed that the AI features won't be available in a perpetual package for everyone. I was too. On the other hand, I understand that it's something that involves costs paid to third parties, which makes a perpetual sale impossible. And AI tools are still evolving on a monthly or weekly basis, which would be impossible to keep up with without a monthly cost subsidy.

I can understand that. And if I understand that the tools are really good and useful in ministry and I can spare the coffee and snacks away from home to subscribe, I will. And that won't discourage me from buying packages periodically when they are released.

What could happen to me is that I opt for cheaper packages to offset the cost of the subscription and it would be great if Faithlife offered an extra discount for subscribers. There are several companies that offer special discounts for subscribers (Amazon is a familiar example).

For example, if enhancements or early features that we have access to via subscription become an integral part of a package, it would be fair if subscribers could receive the feature at no extra cost when purchasing a package. For example, let's suppose that the function to activate and deactivate dark/light mode without having to restart the program, which for the time being is only available by subscription, comes to be sold as part of a lifetime license in a package. If subscribers have financed this feature in advance through the subscription, I think it would be fair to receive this feature permanently (or get a good discount) when the package is released annually or biannually. Of course, you'd have to see how long the person has been a subscriber for, etc.

So here's a tip for Faithlife!

Aaron Hamilton

I think what's really happening is that many are disappointed that the AI features won't be available in a perpetual package for everyone

A primary concern expressed by many users is that non-AI feature upgrades will no longer be available to those who are unwilling to subscribe. This is an extremely valid concern and has not been definitively decided or announced by the company one way or the other. For many users, their future with Logos hangs in the balance, because at least for the time being they are unwilling to subscribe but still want to have the assurance of purchasing non-AI features in the future if they so choose.

Anderson Abreu

A primary concern expressed by many users is that non-AI feature upgrades will no longer be available to those who are unwilling to subscribe.

I understand that this is also a legitimate concern. The Mark exposes this issue at this point in the first post:

We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.

But these points emphasize that the focus, beyond AI tools, is on giving early access to improvements and tools and getting feedback before releasing packages for sale:

[...]

It allows us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built, rather than holding them back for a major release every two years. That’s especially important at a time of rapid technological change.

It allows us to include features like AI, which we can’t offer permanent licenses to because of the significant ongoing costs.

It’s a sustainable way of ensuring we can keep delivering improvements for decades to come.

Releasing early and often significantly shortens the feedback loop, enabling us to continually tweak our improvements to ensure they’re really solving the most important things for all our customers.

So, based on the first post I don't see it being on the radar to stop selling new features in packages as long as they are not features that involve constant costs such as improvements, support and third-party services.

Aaron Hamilton

based on the first post I don't see it being on the radar to stop selling new features in packages as long as they are not features that involve constant costs such as improvements, support and third-party services.

I understand how you might arrive at that conclusion. Frankly, that is what's so baffling about all of this. It seems like the obvious conclusion that they would continue to offer purchase options for users, especially after so many have pushed for it. This makes the fact that they have refused to confirm future feature purchase options very frustrating for some. While I sincerely hope that you are correct about the continuation of feature purchase options, I can confirm based on multiple statements that the possibility of no longer selling new features is definitely being considered.

Henry Becker

Thanks for the update on the future of Logos. Since I like to work offline and the AI features are not that important to me, I would prefer the non-AI features to be released as new versions every two years as before. So I would like to have two versions of Logos: The first version is the normal Logos permanent license you can buy. And the other is the subscription version. It's perfectly understandable that KI features can't be released in permanent licenses, but every other feature can. Also with permanent licenses you can skip one or more versions before buying the next one if you have a smaller budget. That's why I like the permanent versions.

I've been reading this thread since day one and have posted since the third page. I've noticed that many people are rushing to assume something that hasn't been said at any point:

(1) we will lose access to libraries already purchased;

(2) not being able to buy more books;

(3) no longer being able to buy packages as before;

(4) losing software support or updates.

Numbers 1-3 have been denied. Number 4 on your list was confirmed as a consideration on page 4 of the thread:

[quote]

The original post intended to say, "In the next version of Logos, we're going to be leaning heavily into subscription for these five reasons, but we don't yet know whether we're going to lean into subscription exclusively."

In other words, they are very likely nixing the existence of one-time-purchase software licenses. No income stream on the product necessarily means no on-going support. Further, it's only a matter of time before Logos 10 is no longer supported by new versions of Windows/IOS, and then those who don't subscribe will be left with no options.

I for one am happy for features like AI to be available by subscription only. If it proves useful I might even subscribe.

Anderson Abreu

I can't agree with your statement or assumption:

In other words, they are very likely nixing the existence of one-time-purchase software licenses. No income stream on the product necessarily means no on-going support. Further, it's only a matter of time before Logos 10 is no longer supported by new versions of Windows/IOS, and then those who don't subscribe will be left with no options.

First, because this was in fact denied in the first post and in a reply from Mark on page 4 of this thread. See:

So yes, we will continue to update our software, for free, to run on future operating systems, so that you can continue to enjoy the books you have bought.

Another reason is that Faithlife has in recent years made the software engine available for free to access the books and tools you have purchased. When new features are released, they are only made available in Logos to those who purchase an upgrade. I remember this happening with the sermon builder (from the first version), canvas, calendar, automatic translator, factbook etc. Faithlife can keep the basic software common to all users updated to run on recent systems, as promised, and target new improvements or functionalities to subscribers or purchasers of future packages. It has already done this over the years.

Frank Sauer

I can't agree with your statement or assumption:

In other words, they are very likely nixing the existence of one-time-purchase software licenses. No income stream on the product necessarily means no on-going support. Further, it's only a matter of time before Logos 10 is no longer supported by new versions of Windows/IOS, and then those who don't subscribe will be left with no options.

First, because this was in fact denied in the first post and in a reply from Mark on page 4 of this thread. See:

So yes, we will continue to update our software, for free, to run on future operating systems, so that you can continue to enjoy the books you have bought.

Another reason is that Faithlife has in recent years made the software engine available for free to access the books and tools you have purchased. When new features are released, they are only made available in Logos to those who purchase an upgrade. I remember this happening with the sermon builder (from the first version), canvas, calendar, automatic translator, factbook etc. Faithlife can keep the basic software common to all users updated to run on recent systems, as promised, and target new improvements or functionalities to subscribers or purchasers of future packages. It has already done this over the years.

Many of us can't agree with your view on this and Faithlife has been vague, silent or contradictory to the issue.... Sometimes carefully worded as in that quote from Mark - notice it says that you will continue to enjoy the books you have bought.... What about the Full Feature Sets that we spent a good dollar amount on under the marketing that they are ours to keep FOREVER?

I have requested that the marketing be more transparent and honestly truthful, rather than misleading as advertised here: https://www.logos.com/ways-to-upgrade

History proves out that we no longer have access to features that were paid for, but deprecated and in some cases repackaged under a new name and sold as part of an upgrade....

Based on Mark's response to my question - it also affirms that we will not always have access to our features....

If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???

If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.

I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.

So you will own and have access to the feature "forever" - OR until they upgrade it or change the name and possibly resell it to you like Sermon File and the Sermon importer which seems to be its renamed version!

They advertise that you own the Feature forever but then do not honor that advertising - very unethical! "Four years of great value" is not the promise they make nor that they advertise....

So it's bad enough they are continuing with the false advertising, but now the possibility remains that we WILL indeed be forced to subscribe IF they do not offer the perpetual license.... How do I come to that conclusion? If the features we own are improved and the only access we have is via subscription - that is forcing a user to subscribe to continue using the features they purchased but were improved.... Unless there will be dual engines continually supported, one that is maintained to allow users continual access to their purchased features without need to upgrade and the "Pro" subscription model for those that do subscribe - I don't see that happening, as it has not happened in the past and sounds like it would hinder sustainability not help it.

Mark's statement about the four years of great value show Faithlife's attitude about their promise of "Forever" - in their eyes four years equals forever... At least until they clarify otherwise, but again history is not on their side....

Some of us were willing to look past the misleading advertising and pay for "improved" and renamed features to help support the company. However, taking advantage of customers in that way and then potentially forcing them into subscriptions for continued access is unethical and needs to not be glossed over.

The silence on this major issue and carefully worded polls and posts has done NOTHING to address the concern of the many! Many of whom are long term invested customers - this AGAIN - should not be such a difficult action item.... Offering both perpetual and subscription is the broadest customer base, yet long term customers as myself are told I have to wait until the Fall to find out if I will continue to have the option to purchase...

So, to all those that continue to post "pro" Faithlife posts about assumptions being made.... Please realize that due to the vague wording, contradictory responses and being told we will know in the Fall - any view on this situation is assumption. That is not any of the forum users fault, it is solely on Faithlife for not being ready with clarity, decisiveness and direction for its customer base. Gathering feedback and acting on it should not be this complicated - six months or so, depending on what is meant by "this fall" is far to long to brush off a strong customer base.

I hope that they make the decision to provide both options and that the perpetual option is not so overpriced with a goal fo forcing subscriptions that they show the care for the many users that have made clear subscription is not an option for them. I hope they actually do listen and respond fairly to this long term customer base, but as I have said numerous times, they are losing substantial revenue in prepub cancellations and sales from those of us not purchasing further until we know our future with the product....

Jesse Barnhart

This reminds me so much of Lifeway who had several nice software packages in the past (Wordsearch for example) and then divested themselves of it. Just not sure I like the direction this is headed although I can see a money savings IF this new Pro package contains ALL of my current library. That could be cheaper than upgrading to the next version every couple of years. I just have concerns I hope can be answered.

Several questions:

If I subscribe and get updated datasets and then stop paying a subscription fee, do I lose those updates?
If I subscribe, is my current package replaced by the Propackage.
If I unscubscribe in a year or two, do I have to reinstall my current package (Logos Gold)?
Will my current package, Logos Gold, that still be available for download with its entire library should I get a new PC and need to reinstall all my software?

Jesse

Frank Sauer

This reminds me so much of Lifeway who had several nice software packages in the past (Wordsearch for example) and then divested themselves of it. Just not sure I like the direction this is headed although I can see a money savings IF this new Pro package contains ALL of my current library. That could be cheaper than upgrading to the next version every couple of years. I just have concerns I hope can be answered.

Several questions:

If I subscribe and get updated datasets and then stop paying a subscription fee, do I lose those updates?

If I subscribe, is my current package replaced by the Propackage.

If I unscubscribe in a year or two, do I have to reinstall my current package (Logos Gold)?

Will my current package, Logos Gold, that still be available for download with its entire library should I get a new PC and need to reinstall all my software?

Jesse

Response to Number 1 - this as currently understood would be YES you would no longer have access to "Pro" Features if you stop subscribing. There have been multiple comments and suggestions that Faithlife offer some form of purchase option for those that have subscribed and choose to cancel, as well as those of us continuing the push for traditional perpetual license purchase options - but no concrete direction has been released as of yet.

Response to Number 2 - As of now, we keep our libraries/packages and whatever is added via the "Pro" subscription would be a temporary addition to your features and books that would cease when you stop subscribing.

Response to Number 3 - You shouldn't have to reinstall, unless someone from Faithlife says otherwise. You would just lose access to the "Pro" features and books when the licenses sync

Response to Number 4 - As of today, it has always worked this way, you should have continued access

Ryan

If I subscribe and get updated datasets and then stop paying a subscription fee, do I lose those updates?

If I subscribe, is my current package replaced by the Propackage.

If I unscubscribe in a year or two, do I have to reinstall my current package (Logos Gold)?

Will my current package, Logos Gold, that still be available for download with its entire library should I get a new PC and need to reinstall all my software?

I was wondering myself what happens to features available only via subscription if one cancels the subscription at a later time. It seems like the hybrid subscription model previously mentioned could handle this situation. Thanks everyone for your patience, both Logos users and staff.

Philippians 4:4-5a

Jesse Barnhart

Thanks, Frank.

Rev. Ian M. Thomas

To be honest I am a bit dismayed by all this. I am already a subscriber to Faithlife Connect. Now another subscription. And on top of that all but 15 of the 430 books I already have in my library - how is that right if I am to pay for another sub?

Anyhow, having been with Logos since before 1999 and $30k+ of expenditure later, I might now be thinking of going elsewhere and sell-up (if even possible after this stunt). You do not inspire confidence that sometime down the road you will not also give subscriptions to other books as you are doing with the 430 books already available and devalue what I have spent these last 25 years with you doing.

Clearly jumping on the AI and subscription model has been too tempting to resist. I think avarice has taken over and Logos has lost its way.

I've enjoyed the later Logos versions and ideas with the sermon manager and sermon template. They were good ideas. I imported all 2000+ sermons and now... Logos has become much more complicated then in the days when I simply used the exegetical and passage guides.

Not all progress is good. No longer will there be depth to sermons or academia because of reading for ourselves. Now it is all summarised into pithy statements which will be used in university papers.

Technology has helped a great deal with having all our books in one place and searching. Logos has streamlined what took probably 40x times as long in the past. So, I am not against that. But undermining with AI, the 'panacea' that lacks any of the Spirit's moving in our hearts. Souless is the result.

Frankly, I need convincing it is worth staying. I do not like where you're heading.

Jim Dean

Frankly, I need convincing it is worth staying. I do not like where you're heading.

Unfortunately, there is little that long-time, big-investment, large-library users can do at this point. It’s impractical to sell all those resources, and impractical to change the long-time habits and dependence on them that has naturally been engendered.
It’s up to whatever the new ownership chooses. It’s not up to us.

However, whoever the owner is, it’s incorporated in the USA. If it turns out that they handle things in “bad faith” (legal not spiritual), and if millions of existing resource-owners (ie the perpetual license type) get trapped into using a non-subscription engine that gradually has its existing features eroded by subscription-only replacements, then there is clear cause for a class-action lawsuit.

Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.

We’ve read and parsed the “assurances” of the current leadership. We’ve discussed how features have disappeared or been replaced in the past. We’ve made it clear that this announcement has shaken our trust in the organization. So, we’ll just have to see how it shakes out this fall when they lay their cards on the table.

Hopefully, those of us who have spent tens of thousands of dollars will not at that point need to call attorneys. Let’s wait and see. And pray that faithfulness and trustworthiness will win out, over greed.

scooter

Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.

Thank you, Jim, for this pithy statement of the issue.

And thanks Frank Sauer for your tenacity in keeping this thread going.

Sam Shelton

Unfortunately, there is little that long-time, big-investment, large-library users can do at this point.

Jim,

You, like all of us, certainly have the right to your opinion. I feel though that it is important to reiterate that not everyone shares your opinion.

While there are a number of people that have been using Logos longer than I have and have spent more money, I consider myself a long-time, big-investment, large-library user. I did not invest in Logos due to any promises of low price or free access. I invested in Logos because I find it to be the most usable and robust Bible study software available then or now.

Its continued existence as a tool that I can use in my Bible study is far more important to me than any slight, whether real or imagined, that might have occurred through the years. The use of this tool for my own spiritual growth, as well as the spiritual growth of those that I teach, is far more important than any monetary amount that I might be able to receive.

Frank Sauer

Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.

Thank you, Jim, for this pithy statement of the issue.

And thanks Frank Sauer for your tenacity in keeping this thread going.

It's a fight I believe is worth it.... I value the investment many of us have made in Logos and being in this "universe" for 25 plus years there is an attachment. Hopefully the announcement that Customer Service told me is coming soon will show that all of us vocalizing our opinions mattered. If I didn't care about the product so much, I would have just threw the library up on ebay and went elsewhere.

Anderson Abreu

Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.

We hope, in good faith, that this is not the case for Faithlife with Logos. I am one who has already invested in a large library and would be devastated if this happened.

Bruce Cullom Sr.

Mark. I'm hoping Logos will have (at least introductory) tutorials on all of these new Pro features, as well as the upcoming Logos 11.

For years I subscribed to the Morris Proctor library for training. But they had a recent substantial price increase that put it out of my reach. Formerly, they had an option that allowed you to "rent" the library on a month-by-month basis, but now they've done away with that too.

After the death of Morris, the changes at MP Seminars have made the training service no longer accessible to me -- financially (and probably many others, too).

Anthony Mankodi

Hi Mark,

I saw some responses to my previous post on this subject as well as responses to questions put forth by others.

But somehow I"m still unclear about some aspects and request a response ...

Sorry to be a bother, but some other questions please on a slightly different subject:

Questions about the AI version of LOGOS called 'LOGOSPRO’…

Some of the replies at the ‘forum’ were good.

They clearly explained that LOGOSPRO features of search would be lost, etc.

Later posts however caused me a bit of confusion on other related questions that I had regarding LOGOSPRO.

So would you please clarify …

(1) Having subscribed to LGOSPRO, should I unsubscribe from LOGOSPRO at a later date, [this might be necessary for various reasons such as lack of money for example, or it might occur 'virtually' as when I am at locations that lack internet access for example], will I, at those times automatically default to LOGOS 10 for the duration? YES or NO? I presume that the response is affirmative, but if LOGOS does not default to LOGOSPRO, then I have some serious concerns and will need to examine possibilities of 'work-arounds' (creating hard prints of notes for example).

(2) Accessing my personal notes and my personal books:

(a) Condition 1: My existing personal notes and my personal book are created using LOGOS 10. I presume that they will remain accessible in LOGSPRO. TRUE or FALSE?

I think this logically is true. But this leads to my area of concern below ...

(b) Condition 2: Personal notes and books created when using LOGOSPRO will NOT be accessible should the subscription lapse. TRUE or FALSE?.

To clarify ...

i. This situation may occur when internet facility is unavailable … hence the subscription has for that purpose 'virtually lapsed' even though the subscription is still actually subscribed to. Due to the non availablity of an internet connection, notes and books created under LOGOSPRO will however be inaccessible under the assumed default to LOGOS10. TRUE or FALSE?

ii. Alternatively, the subscription has been either cancelled, or has not been renewed in actuality. Even in such conditions personal notes and books created using LOGOSPRO will be inaccessible under the assumed default to . TRUE or FALSE?

iii. If the LOGOSPRO subscription lapses for any reason (virtual or real), the painful 'work-around' is to keep creating back-up notes and books, as 'word' documents, in *.docx format, which may be uploaded into LOGOS10 off line at will. TRUE or FALSE?

Blessings,

In Christ Jesus,

Tony.

Don Parmely

Hello! How does this subscription work with Church Toolkit and the features for pastors that are inclluded?

Peter_G

Mark. I'm hoping Logos will have (at least introductory) tutorials on all of these new Pro features, as well as the upcoming Logos 11.

For years I subscribed to the Morris Proctor library for training. But they had a recent substantial price increase that put it out of my reach. Formerly, they had an option that allowed you to "rent" the library on a month-by-month basis, but now they've done away with that too.

After the death of Morris, the changes at MP Seminars have made the training service no longer accessible to me -- financially (and probably many others, too).

Hi Bruce. I'm advised by MPSeminars that the monthly subscription is still available. See https://mpseminars.com/shop/

They also have a "grandfathering" policy for old subscribers.

Andrew Sloan

For what it's worth, I would really like there to continue to be the option to purchase feature sets, and libraries. The last thing I need in my life is another subscription, and I value Logos/Verbum a lot in my workflow. I would hate to have to phase it out due to needing a subscription for the software to work properly across multiple devices as it does now.

It seems like every company is bullying their customers into subscriptions these days with the promise of "new and improved" content/feature on a regular basis. I think there should always be a way to opt out of this, especially for those who have invested heavily into Logos in the past.

If the main "feature" that the subscription model is enabling is the use of AI, I'll humbly pass on the opportunity. I don't need AI to think/summarize/interpret/write for me. Please leave options to purchase feature/date sets and libraries. I am happy to "miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates." Thank you.

Scott E. Heitshusen

...there are a few tools and datasets in Connect and Preaching Suite that aren’t in Logos Pro but will be in another tier of the subscription. Most of the books in Logos Pro are different from those included in the existing subscriptions.

Is there a place where we can compare in detail what these differences are/will be?

Dave Hooton

Is there a place where we can compare in detail what these differences are/will be?

Not that I am aware. You might look at the difference between Silver Features and Full Features,

As a guide, here is a zipped csv file of 106 books that are new to me and not in Connect, which means that I own 300+ of the books in Pro.

7450.LibraryEarly.zip

If you can open in Excel, it will be better presented.

Paul Green

Hello Everyone,

I decided I would comment on this thread so that I could share with Faithlife my deep concerns and sadness about a subscription service. Personally I do not use subscription services. I do not need a re-occurring monthly bill especially with state of the economy. I was laid off in October from an IT position as a Project Manager. You never know what the future holds, so having to decide what to spend your limited resources on especially when you do not have a job should not be something you have to think of when it relates to your devotional time and preparing Home Group / Sunday School lessons.

As many others have said on this thread I have no issue with Faithlife creating a subscription service as one option while letting others continue to purchase upgrades/features as well. But I think they should really focus on their customers. I will generalize a bit, but Christians are not normally as wealthy as some other groups especially in other countries. I do not think it is a wise choice to make an absolute switch to subscriptions when a decent size group of their customers may not have the funds to keep a subscription going.

I'm not sure if Faithlife is public or private company and I have no issues with a company needing to make a profit to stay in business. But I do think companies that focus on a Christian Worldview and make a tool that helps the great commission should be held to a high standard on stewardship and meeting the needs of their customers. For example in Mark's post he says this subscription change is needed to keep the business running. Well for how long has Faithlife been running toward the negative? What other things have they done to avoid a subscription service or was this just the decision they leapt to? Why do they think we need AI tools. I absolutely see no need in AI tools or the extra cost it is bringing to Faithlife. I use AI in IT and Project Management related activities, so I understand it a bit, but do not see the value especially by creating costs for Faithlife and the customer. Just because the industry is excited about AI, doesn't mean it is needed in Logos.

I have a growing number of questions about the future of my Logos application and library. A lot of things say we retain our books, but what is the mechanism for reading them. If they are just made available in an ebook reader style of application I will feel absolutely ripped off. When I selected resources to purchase in Logos it was because of the tools and linking it provided to those resources. If I had known this functionality would be moved to a subscription model to retain its use I would never have started down the Logos path. I could have easily kept buying paper books or used Amazon Kindle. Often the Kindle version is cheaper than the Logos version.

Some questions I have that truly trouble me:

If we do not subscribe will book updates for typos issues and tagging still be pushed to us?
Will we still be able to use our resources across devices and desktops without a subscription? I use it broadly across my devices, so would be extremely disappointed to lose this functionality.
What will happen to our existing Logos version we are using? For example, I have Logos 10 with full features, will it remain fully functional as it stands or get deprecated? Will it get bug fixes still? If so for how long? Will an update remove or limit functionality without a subscription? Will we be notified to this change so we can decide not to install that update?
If our version of Logos whether 8, 9 ,or 10 remains fully functional will all books added to Logos still be supported? Will changes from AI impact the resources and cause them to no longer function with our current version without a subscription?

I know I have and will have more questions as Faithlife decides the path forward, but for now I will end by reiterating I will not participate in a subscription service and will be completely demoralized by Faithlife if they limit my existing functionality over a subscription model.

It is an interesting discussion since we want to use this software to reach others for Christ and make a difference in our walk each day. We wish to be a group of believers that shares some unity, but I sure hope Faithlife makes a choice that puts Christ first on how their tools can be used across the globe for His glory.

Mike Binks

If our version of Logos whether 8, 9 ,or 10 remains fully functional will all books added to Logos still be supported? Will changes from AI impact the resources and cause them to no longer function with our current version without a subscription?

Some questions I have that truly trouble me:

If we do not subscribe will book updates for typos issues and tagging still be pushed to us?

There is no reason to suppose otherwise however armageddon is always a possibility.

Will we still be able to use our resources across devices and desktops without a subscription? I use it broadly across my devices, so would be extremely disappointed to lose this functionality.

There is not reason to suppose otherwise however all bets are off should you arbitrarily change your devices

What will happen to our existing Logos version we are using?

Nothing

I have Logos 10 with full features, will it remain fully functional as it stands or get deprecated?

The two options are not mutually exclusive. There is every reason to suppose that (I assume you mean Logos version 33) will remain fully functional and also, as versions emerge it will become deprecated.

Will it get bug fixes still? If so for how long?

To all intents and purposes Logos version 33 will get bug fixes by becoming Logos 34 or at least that has been the habit so far.

Will an update remove or limit functionality without a subscription?

There is no reason to assume it will.

If our version of Logos whether 8, 9 ,or 10 remains fully functional will all books added to Logos still be supported? Will changes from AI impact the resources and cause them to no longer function with our current version without a subscription?

There is no reason to think that your version of Logos whether 32, 33 or whatever will not allow books to be added although additional tagging may not be accessible if one does not upgrade the engine.

Frank Sauer

Will an update remove or limit functionality without a subscription?

There is no reason to assume it will.

There is no reason to assume it won't, history is scattered with lost functionality in the Logos system and you are ignoring this direct statement to the contrary of yours from Mark....

If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???

If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.

I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.

The fact is - Logos has a checkered history in honoring that you never lose access to a Feature you own. They have deprecated some, renamed and then sold as new and now with Mark's statement - it's clear they have no desire to actually honor the "forever" sales pitch. Worse yet, those improvements may only be available as a rental/subscription.

So until Faithlife states clearly that they WILL finally honor the FOREVER sales pitch, we are stuck waiting on their decision of whether they care about customer feedback and will at least continue to offer purchases of Features. Once they actually figure out what this difficult business decison outcome will be, maybe we can actually start getting answers to these question that have honesty and clarity.

DMB

Frank, I'll play stupid, and ask, where does this 'forever' come from (source quote). I only ask, since businesses use that word, knowing full well, it can't be delivered. And Christians normally associate 'forever', with non-earthly pleasures.

Mark, I notice, sticks with 'foreseeable future', which means maybe 2-3 years or so.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

I personally wouldn't have used the word "forever" in that marketing copy, but there are two main ways I see of interpreting it:

You receive a permanent license to the feature. It's not a rental or a subscription. If you buy Logos 8 Gold today but Logos 9 Bronze in two years, you don't lose the feature because you "downgraded"; instead, your license rolls into the next major version of the software (and dynamic pricing means you never pay for it twice). Maybe some features do eventually get deprecated, but we have sold you a permanent license to a downloadable copy of the software and you can keep running it on an air-gapped VM for the rest of your life.
You have made a one-time purchase of the "platonic ideal" of a particular feature, and Logos will upgrade and enhance that feature to be compatible with all future computing devices and operating systems yet without changing the core nature of the feature in ways that could be considered deprecating or obsoleting. Logos will also throw in various improvements to the feature for free without requiring any additional payment for those improvements. This will continue forever, including past the Resurrection and the Final Judgment.

I think you're expecting (2) and are upset that the company's position is (1); is that an accurate summary? (And if (2) doesn't encapsulate your position, then perhaps you could state exactly what you do think should be included in "forever" ownership of a feature?)

Almost everything you've bought in the past can be run forever if you freeze the software at the version you bought it at (and make an offline backup of your licenses). (There are some features that do require an online dataset to run and I agree we shouldn't be promising literal "forever" access to those because that's not within our power to provide.)

They have deprecated some, renamed and then sold as new

If you're claiming that Logos Sermon Builder is nothing more than a renamed LDLS Sermon File Addin, then I submit that you're arguing in extremely bad faith. Literally the only thing in common between the two products is the word "Sermon" in the title (and, I suppose, the target market).

Dave Hooton

3. What will happen to our existing Logos version we are using? For example, I have Logos 10 with full features, will it remain fully functional as it stands or get deprecated? Will it get bug fixes still? If so for how long? Will an update remove or limit functionality without a subscription? Will we be notified to this change so we can decide not to install that update?

4. If our version of Logos whether 8, 9 ,or 10 remains fully functional will all books added to Logos still be supported? Will changes from AI impact the resources and cause them to no longer function with our current version without a subscription?

Paul,

You should understand that versioning of the Logos engine is now strict numeric following the Library Upgrade called Logos 10. The current version is 33.0 and the policy is to push free updates to users with supported OS (the next version of the engine will be 34.0). If you remain on Logos 9 or older versions of the engine then you will miss updates that enhance your Features and fix bugs, including those that affect books. Also, the older version may not support some new books. AI does not change the way that your books are built. AI features like Insights and Summarize help you understand chapters or articles in your books and the AI "Smart" search is just another way to search for information.

If you have Logos 10 Features, some could be renamed/deprecated/withdrawn in the future as has happened in the past with Faithlife Assistant (withdrawn), Timeline (now Advanced Timeline), Graphs (now Charts). Community Notes is scheduled to be withdrawn. Some features will be enhanced as was Search with L10. I doubt that L10 features will be made fully AI, but AI functionality could be added (as with Search and Sermon Builder).

As it currently stands, you don't need subscription to maintain L10 features enhanced by AI, but new Features will require subscription unless they can be offered for purchase (but it is doubtful that AI Features would be available). FL have to decide exactly how they will support users who do not want to subscribe.

Shelby

This is severely disappointing.

I'm thankful that Logos won't be nuking the features and books we've purchased, but moving to an exclusively subscription based model is the easiest way to lose my support. It's shifting Logos into that "you don't actually own anything and we can take it away anytime we feel like it" model that so many other companies are already in. While us older customers will, thankfully, get to keep our things, the next generation of Logos users will be giving a great reason to look back at paper libraries, or even your competitors. When starting out, I certainly didn't want to pour a lot of money into something that will up and vanish at the drop of a hat. Real paper books you pay for once and become and investment into your lifetime of Christian service. Logos, now, will only last as long as you continually fork over money again and again.

I've been ticked off again and again when Amazon Prime Video hikes prices, loses shows, and can't decide what seasons and episodes they want to include. Not to mention the ads. I cannot rely on them having what I want in the future and even if they have something today, it'll probably be gone tomorrow.

I totally understand the insane expense with AI features. Which is why I think Logos should avoid it entirely. In fact, I helped provide feedback on a developing platform that seeks to use AI to aid preachers and teachers within a Christian context, and after weeks of helping, my conclusion was that their platform was ultimately unneeded because Logos already provides all the needed tools, with more accuracy and more information, without the numerous AI problems and expenses.

If Logos does go with AI integration, it would be best for that to be a totally separate feature subscription. I have no problems with that, knowing the backend expenses and complexity and need for constant updating and refining.

My solution would be to continue onwards with the forever access model currently employed, but adding a monthly fee IF a user opts into using the AI features.

Replacing the entire preaching suite features and only going with a subscription model for all the excellent sermon builder and manager tools is incredibly frustrating. They have been great so far, and it'll be annoying to tell others that they have to pay monthly, or worse, never use them at all. The only reason I've got them today is because I could get them in a package.

I'm also afraid that ya'll will hold out on the sermon builder tools for android until you flip to the subscription model, leaving us high and dry while Apple users will continue to get forever access. While Android access to the sermon tools should have been there from the beginning, locking it behind a subscription paywall, while iPhone/iPad users continue to enjoy it perpetually would only add insult to injury.

Overall, I don't see the need for AI at all, but using it as a shield to justify moving completely into subscription models is not the way to earn my goodwill, or my continued business.

john Lagaza

I just signed up for Logos pro and did a search on the new search screen. It turned up hundreds of articles ALL LOCKED! Thats not what I want to see. I want results I can access and none I can't access unless I ask for them. Please correct this issue Thank you

John

Aaron Hamilton

John,

I don't have Logos Pro, but from what I understand, this happens because you have done a search on ALL books. This includes thousands and thousands of books that you do not own. I think you need to restrict the search to MY books to solve this problem. From what I have heard, this is an issue that should be corrected in Logos. Users should have to take the extra step to search materials that they do not own, not the other way around.

Sam Shelton

I just signed up for Logos pro and did a search on the new search screen. It turned up hundreds of articles ALL LOCKED! Thats not what I want to see. I want results I can access and none I can't access unless I ask for them. Please correct this issue Thank you

John

You can find out more about the different search modes here:

New Detailed Search Help (logos.com)

john Lagaza

Thank you brother for those thoughts. I share the same thoughts and concerns. I did sign up for subscription to get the free month to see how it is. So far I still have great concerns the same ones you shared. Thank you for your thoughts.

John

Graham Criddle

From what I have heard, this is an issue that should be corrected in Logos.

I haven't heard this - I think it is operating as intended.

Users should have to take the extra step to search materials that they do not own, not the other way around.

I don't understand this. We, as users, choose the type of search we execute - so an All search will search the catalog while a Books Search will search books we own.

Aaron Hamilton

I don't understand this. We, as users, choose the type of search we execute - so an All search will search the catalog while a Books Search will search books we own.

I mentioned taking "the extra step." What I mean by this is, what is the default? And what requires an additional click? In my opinion, the default should be to search only through a user's library. And If you want to see beyond your library, you can click to include all resources from the Logos catalog. Many users have expressed confusion over why their default search shows a majority of books that they do not own. I understand this confusion. This is why my opinion is that this is an issue that should be corrected. Because, the current setup results in confusion for many users. Most users want to know what's in their library, not what's in the Logos catalog.

Bruce Cullom Sr.

I just signed up for Logos pro and did a search on the new search screen. It turned up hundreds of articles ALL LOCKED!

The reason the books and articles are locked, is because "All" is being searched and that particular search contain volumes you/we don't own and are being pulled from the entire Logos catalog.

I agree that Logos should have made "Books" the default so as to avoid the confusion (and I would definitely prefer that "Books" be called "My Library" because that's more straight forward. And perhaps "All" would be better labeled: Logos Catalog.

I have no problem with the "All" feature searching the entire Logos catalog and turning up many locked books as it does provide a summary from the locked books/articles and I have founded several I intend to purchase for which I was previously unaware.

As with all changes, there are growing pains that need to be ironed out.

Peter_G

What I definitely do NOT want to see with Logos is something that happened very recently with my genealogy (family history) program.

Last year, in May, I renewed my subscription to that program, but only after obtaining 'iron-clad' assurances from the online agent that my "Complete" subscription would include everything offered by the company. At the time, this included the ability to search newspaper records that are online.

Then, not long ago, I logged in and tried to search for newspaper references to my grandfather. Yep, the program gave me some hits, but when I clicked on "Details" I was taken to a different website which offered access to newspaper searches, and involved the payment of another subscription. The different site was owned by the same company, So "Complete" was no longer applicable, because it was a different website. Or so I was told by a support person, who told me that the change had been implemented in March 2024.

I remonstrated that the company's action was at least not in good faith, and at worst blatant fraud. I insisted that access to newspaper searches would be restored. To my surprise, not long after (a day or so) I received a message from the support person, informing me that he had raised this with "Sales," and that they had added the new website access to my subscription. I have encouraged them to extend the same "courtesy" to other users.

Logos: please do NOT deprecate features, etc. and then reintroduce them, in part of in full, as part of a subscription. Please assure us users that this will NEVER be done by Logos Bible Software, and also communicate that to your majority shareholder, Cove Hill Partners venture capital.

Rev. Eric Burrows-Stone

So, I decided to take Logos up on their offer for a month long free trial of Logos Pro. Here are my thoughts:

First, I should note that I decided to not let the subscription renew after the trial was up after trying Logos Pro out. Why? The amount and quality of books included with the subscription where not worth paying a subscription for when compared to the nearly 8,000 books I do own and utilize in my studies and sermon prep. I don't see the need to pay part of a subscription for books I just don't think are worth it.

Secondly, the AI tools were not nearly as helpful as they are made out to be.

AI Summaries - this is entirely unnecessary. If I want a quick overview of a book I just click on "Information" and can see the general scope of a book. And as for summarizing chapters, gosh, if I am busy I can easily just speed read a chapter to get the general sense of the argument. I don't need an AI summary. So that doesn't sell me.
AI Sermon Assist - again, I found this mostly unhelpful. I am not going to use Illustrations an AI comes up with. I need to use illustrations that connect with my congregation and their lives - what fits their context. The AI just isn't able to do that. Same with the AI generated Questions. The only tool that I found even somewhat useful here was the AI generated Applications, as a way to bounce ideas off of the AI. However, I was underwhelmed by the results the AI suggested for Applications. Just to try it, I ran some Scripture passages through OpenAI to see what application questions that program would generate, and found OpenAI's application questions to be far more robust than those generated by Logos Pro's AI.
Logos Pro's AI assisted Smart Search was a bit better. However, I know how to search through my books/resources, so I really just don't think it would prove that useful to me. Which again, means that I just cannot justify paying a subscription for something that I find only moderately useful.

In short, as of now, I do not find myself sold on subscribing. Logos 10's features do everything I need them to do and my current books/resources are more than sufficient. And if I ever would find myself stuck on points for my sermon, I could use OpenAI FOR FREE and get equally good results (or better ones).

So, if anyone from Logos is still paying attention to this thread. I will reiterate what so many of us have already been asking for. Please keep purchasing available (and make the AI features an optional add-on people can subscribe to).

In Christ,

Rev. Eric Burrows-Stone

Anthony D’Andrea

I understand that cloud based AI features have a cost for the Logos team, but that being said I would love to see the option to have an LLM integration that runs locally on our devices to avoid the subscription route. This may be demanding, but some peoples computers may be able to handle it.

Alternatively, giving us the option to strictly subscribe to the AI features and purchase non AI feature sets would be a good alternative. I like the idea of paying once and owning it rather than keeping a subscription. This is one of my favorite things about Logos.

Whyndell Grizzard

I believe if this will affect our now own Logos program on our computers we will receive advance notice. I do not intend on getting your subscription service, so I understand my resources and features will be what they are when you abandon us, and will be satisfied with what i have.

#1- I would also like to know are we going to need to cut ties with Logos so our system will not be interfered with, in other words having our system start completely shut off from internet?

#2- will future resources be offered for purchase without a subscription?

#3- Hopefully there will be at least a 6 month notice when you implement this so as to allow time to make sure our personal systems are protected to prevent the reduction of our logos programs as they exist now.

Frank Sauer

The more I try to step back a little on this whole fiasco, the more Faithlife continues to show that this is not the company it once was...... After a good discussion with Bradley (whom I have years of experience with, always professional and helpful)....

I decide to do my weekly check-in with Sales/Customer Service via Chat and Fern just ends the chat without any response to my question.... Yeah, good service.... The "New" Faithlife....

Worried about sustainability but show no urgency in lost sales from those of us who will not purchase without our questions answered.... Requests for contact.... Why bother with a long time customer that has done many presentations of Logos leading to many sales of the product..... Who cares.... We want new subscription users....

Update: Jumped back into Chat and connected with Justin... He was at least respectful enough to not just disconnect a customer.

This seems to be the best response there is:

"As of now I'd say stay tuned and we will communicate as things move forward."

I am now wondering whether a subscription only model is the least to be concerned about and that the risk of losing the investment will be higher with this new attitude of brushing off customers is the real threat to not being a sustainable business....

Aaron Hamilton

I assume there's nothing to announce at this point in time. Like it or not, I think people just have to sit tight for the time being. If that means sitting tight with a closed wallet, so be it. At this point I would assume they have gathered enough feedback to gain a general consensus of what the community is hoping for. The big question is, what will they do with that feedback? We'll know soon enough...

Aaron Hamilton

Frank Sauer

I understand that cloud based AI features have a cost for the Logos team, but that being said I would love to see the option to have an LLM integration that runs locally on our devices to avoid the subscription route. This may be demanding, but some peoples computers may be able to handle it.

Alternatively, giving us the option to strictly subscribe to the AI features and purchase non AI feature sets would be a good alternative. I like the idea of paying once and owning it rather than keeping a subscription. This is one of my favorite things about Logos.

I'm not sure, but Faithlife Assistant may have been close to your suggestion - which had it been improved may have been really useful without a per use cost, as with the current AI.Maybe Bradley can chime in to whether it fit your suggestion. Again not sure it was LLM, but is was added to the list of deprecated Features last year.

Dave Hooton

I'm not sure, but Faithlife Assistant may have been close to your suggestion -

Faithlife Assistant had its own command set and was quite dumb even though it was an advance over the Command box. It was not intuitive.

Jim Dean

So, I decided to take Logos up on their offer for a month long free trial of Logos Pro. Here are my thoughts:

AI Sermon Assist - again, I found this mostly unhelpful. I am not going to use Illustrations an AI comes up with. I need to use illustrations that connect with my congregation and their lives - what fits their context. The AI just isn't able to do that. Same with the AI generated Questions. The only tool that I found even somewhat useful here was the AI generated Applications, as a way to bounce ideas off of the AI. However, I was underwhelmed by the results the AI suggested for Applications. Just to try it, I ran some Scripture passages through OpenAI to see what application questions that program would generate, and found OpenAI's application questions to be far more robust than those generated by Logos Pro's AI.

Rev Eric ...

I agree with your overall comments and assessment. I'm not sure if there is a place to offer this as a SUGGESTION, but maybe the Logos folks will see it here. I too was underwhelmed by the current Pro AI tools ... I do see potential value in them if several things are **significantly** improved.

1. The Search tool is not "smart" enough re interpreting grammar ... I posted earlier about a search test I had done that went something like this: "What does the Bible say Noah's age was at the time of the flood, according to Young Earth Creationists". I have a lot of books in my library about creationism that would have offered fodder for the answer. However, the Search seemed to be unaware that the words "according to" effectively should be a "filter" to limit the hits to the first half of the question. I tried rephrasing it in several ways but I always got hits ONLY to either the first half or the second half of the question. So - SEARCH NEEDS TO BE SMARTER.

2. Sermon Illustrations ... all of my tests of this generated little stories like I might tell a child, which had no "meat" in them - and which I would be embarrassed to use in a sermon or lesson. In my library of 14k books, I own a LOT of books with Illustrations in them, many of which have scripture-tagging (a Library search for "Illustrations" got 328 hits). I would find it VALUABLE if the Pro AI could be told to draw illustrations ONLY from my library's Books, rather than the current childlike story-generation. So - ILLUSTRATIONS NEED TO USE MY BOOKS.

3. Sermon Applications ... similar comments as #2.

Please comment on these, as to whether you think they have value, and whether if they were incorporated, you might join me in subscribing ... thanks.

MJ. Smith

"What does the Bible say Noah's age was at the time of the flood, according to Young Earth Creationists".

This question/conversational style works best with chatbots. The Logos AI works best with a list of keywords.

Jim Dean

"What does the Bible say Noah's age was at the time of the flood, according to Young Earth Creationists".

This question/conversational style works best with chatbots. The Logos AI works best with a list of keywords.

Thanks MJ ...

I'm aware of that ... as are most others who've been exposed to "AI" interfaces in the past year or two. The idea behind those interfaces, usually, (afaik) is to *** make it easy *** for the user who is unskilled in research methods, and/or search-query syntax and rules, to use "natural language" to ask questions that another human being usually would understand. And to get focused, useful summary-answers.

That's what I expect from an "AI Search" feature in Logos. Logos has long had an extremely powerful Search capability that unfortunately has so many nuances (types, categories, syntax rules), that the average Logos user either is unaware of their scope, or overwhelmed by its complexity/depth, or simply frustrated in trying to recall the categories and choices available. Nonetheless, it's very powerful, when used as intended, and represents a fantastic benefit of the Logos engine as well as the book-tagging and datasets.

HOWEVER, if the "Logos Pro AI" is to be worth extra expense ... to me at least ... I expect it to be "decoupled" from a required understanding of syntax and categories and keywords ... I expect to come close to similar results as the current Search tool, but using natural language, *without* requiring the user to know a NEW set of rules.

If it cannot do that, even in a simple way such as the example I provided, then for me (and I suspect for many users) it has little or no marginal benefit ... certainly not enough to warrant $9.99/month (or more) ... for what (according to some posts here) turns out to be a fairly limited number of use-tokens per month.

I realize that you're likely of a different opinion, but I believe that what I've expressed SHOULD BE CONSIDERED by the Logos staff as the "desired endpoint" ... and that they try to get 80-90% of the way there before an "official release" of the AI Search tool. Jmho, fwiw.

Wayne & Rebecca Birch

If you want feedback, I would personally like continued access to feature sets. I really dislike the thought of having yet again, another subscription. I would gladly forgo the use of AI. I have had a lot of experience with it, I don’t like half the stuff if spits out. Also I think the Word of God should be wrestled over, read, tested.

I just don’t think this is a good idea in general. This is just going to create lazy preachers and expositors, outsourcing what we should be doing to a computer. Technology is good, and we have used it to great effect, but I think this is one of those things is just a step too far off the precipice.

It appears to be a good thing now, there are a lot of promises about what it will bring, but no one is talking about what it takes away. I can see a time in the very close future where reliance on the AI will color our thinking, introduce (probably slowly and unbeknownst to us, biases the AI have, and I assure you l, from what I have seen already, I want no part of that).

I think there should be more push-back on this than what I am already seeing on this thread. So definitely, I think on that basis alone, having a full feature purchasable program to access my library should be available and maintained. Personally folks, I think this is a slippery slope. “Danger Danger Will Robinson!”

Wayne & Rebecca Birch

If you want feedback, I would personally like continued access to feature sets. I really dislike the thought of having yet again l, another subscription. I would gladly forgo the use of AI. I have had a lot of experience with it, I don’t like half the stuff if spits out. Also I think the Word of God should be wrestled over, read, tested.

I just don’t think this is a good idea in general. This is just going to create lazy preachers and expositors, outsourcing what we should be doing to a computer.

I think there should be more push back on this than what I am already seeing on this thread. So definitely, I think on that basis alone, having a full feature purchasable program to access my library should be available and maintained. Personally folks, I think this is a slippery slope. “Danger Danger Will Robinson!”

DMM

If you want feedback, I would personally like continued access to feature sets. I really dislike the thought of having yet again, another subscription. I would gladly forgo the use of AI. I have had a lot of experience with it, I don’t like half the stuff if spits out. Also I think the Word of God should be wrestled over, read, tested.

I just don’t think this is a good idea in general. This is just going to create lazy preachers and expositors, outsourcing what we should be doing to a computer. Technology is good, and we have used it to great effect, but I think this is one of those things is just a step too far off the precipice.

It appears to be a good thing now, there are a lot of promises about what it will bring, but no one is talking about what it takes away. I can see a time in the very close future where reliance on the AI will color our thinking, introduce (probably slowly and unbeknownst to us, biases the AI have, and I assure you l, from what I have seen already, I want no part of that).

I think there should be more push-back on this than what I am already seeing on this thread. So definitely, I think on that basis alone, having a full feature purchasable program to access my library should be available and maintained. Personally folks, I think this is a slippery slope. “Danger Danger Will Robinson!”

I completely agree with you on both points.

There's a difference between using tools to save you time (which Logos is fantastic at - imagine having to open up paper copies of all those resources! or search the indexes of all your books individually), and using it to do the learning you should have done on your own. A huge part of learning is not just coming up with the right answers but it involves the process of how you got there.

Jim Dean

Also I think the Word of God should be wrestled over, read, tested.

I just don’t think this is a good idea in general. This is just going to create lazy preachers and expositors, outsourcing what we should be doing to a computer. Technology is good, and we have used it to great effect, but I think this is one of those things is just a step too far off the precipice.

It appears to be a good thing now, there are a lot of promises about what it will bring, but no one is talking about what it takes away. I can see a time in the very close future where reliance on the AI will color our thinking, introduce (probably slowly and unbeknownst to us, biases the AI have, and I assure you l, from what I have seen already, I want no part of that).

I think there should be more push-back on this than what I am already seeing on this thread. So definitely, I think on that basis alone, having a full feature purchasable program to access my library should be available and maintained. Personally folks, I think this is a slippery slope. “Danger Danger Will Robinson!”

I agree completely! I've mentioned this previously, at some length, here and elsewhere.

The gifts of knowledge and wisdom and insight are given to believers, not to computers.

The Holy Spirit indwells, guides, teaches and empowers believers, not computers.

*Using* those gifts, and *submitting* to that direction, brings glory to God.

Furthermore, the *process* of searching and study and rightly dividing itself brings blessing and growth, and quite often, unexpected and unlooked-for insights and conviction and worship.

... Having said that ... I think that many tools have been created in the past couple hundred years, which make that process more efficient and expedient. English, Greek and Hebrew print-concordances were essential tools for me back in the 70's & 80's, as were Interlinears and Morphological Parsing guides. Logos and other applications automate that tremendously further, and add to it specific searches for lemmas and forms, etc.

... We begin, however, to "edge away" from direct study and parsing of the inspired text, when we use the (very helpful and handy) tagging and datasets that makes Logos more powerful than any other study tool. Those tags and datasets are created by a combo of humans and rule-engines (expert systems), which for the most part if not wholly, are not from the indwelling guidance and gifts of the Spirit. That doesn't mean those things are wrong or bad or incorrect ... but it DOES mean they are not inspired. They are potentially even more fallible than Bible Commentaries ... Commentaries are of course not God-breathed, but at least they are written by believers who presumably have the gifts of wisdom, knowledge &/or teaching ... they merit care when being read, but do offer Spirit-directed benefit. OTOH, the tags and datasets are created (largely) by Expert Systems (automated search and annotation engines). Yes, those things are "under God's sovereign control", but they don't utilize the gifts He has provided.

... So ... even the really powerful and "handy" Logos Search capability, when it uses tagging and datasets, is "edging" in the direction away from what I'd consider to be "safe" or "pure" study of the Word. I'm not saying it's "bad" ... but I do think we need to be careful about using it, and understand its genesis.

*** NOW *** that is being taken even further ... using so-called (non-Turing) "AI" that attempts to "understand what we want" from unstructured queries that utilize unknown relationships to search for loosely-defined fuzzy concepts, somehow ... to draw out information from God's Holy Word, and from other resources that He's gifted us with over the centuries. Again ... I'm not saying it's "bad" or "sinful" to do this ... but it IS, imo, fraught with DANGER. It encourages sloppiness and laziness. It discourages prayer and submission to the Spirit. It removes the "joy of discovery".

And further ... when we extend those tools to not only search for information, but also to SUMMARIZE it for us, we are getting closer and closer to adding to or subtracting from the Word. If we use those summaries ONLY to help us decide where to study, but then study the original doc's manually ourselves, that seems fairly safe (although we might be misled by the summary to disregard a source that actually has value).

The MOST DANGEROUS implementation is when we use the tools to create all or parts of a "finished product" ... a sermon, a lesson, a tract, an answer to a question, a counselling guide, etc. Imo, when it's taken that far, at best, it has little or no value. And the entire process which the Holy Spirit should and could have been engaged in through gifted believers, is replaced ... which, if you will, reduces the glory being offered to God. Or, in other terms ... "nola Deo gloria".

PLEASE ... if anyone is going to quote this, quote the entire thing, since the various points build on one another and provide context. THANKS.

Peter_G

I'm also against subscriptions if there will be an impact on the now existing functionality, or the availability to purchase of new and updated features, for npn-subscribers.

From the point of view of Logos Bible Software, what is the difference between permanent subscriptions for licences, features, etc. (the present model) and a periodic subscription?

The former gives the Company substantial income on an unpredictable basis ("Will users purchase this?"), while the latter provides regular, predictable income from those who choose the new or upgraded services. Those who subscribe, however, lose access to everything they have a licence to use by ending their subscription. Some may prefer the latter, but I suspect that a large number (especially long-termers) would prefer the former.

What if the Company offered a pro-rata discount to purchase services outright if they find that a subscription doesn't work for them, and have to cancel?

What if the Company offered permanent licences, as well as a subscription service for 'early adopters" (aka beta testers)?

Logos: please do not force your long-term faithful users, or anyone else, into subscribing or being cast out.

John Duffy

What if the Company offered a pro-rata discount to purchase services outright if they find that a subscription doesn't work for them, and have to cancel?

If someone had to cancel subscription after some years, it would be good for them to have a pro-rata discount to allow them to purchase so that they could keep the level of services that they had up to that point in time. A generous discount for long term subscribers would make it easier to opt for subscribing, since there would be an eventual option of having something at the end of subscribing, without having to pay the full price of the features, if they were still sold on a purchase basis.

Frank Sauer

What if the Company offered a pro-rata discount to purchase services outright if they find that a subscription doesn't work for them, and have to cancel?

If someone had to cancel subscription after some years, it would be good for them to have a pro-rata discount to allow them to purchase so that they could keep the level of services that they had up to that point in time. A generous discount for long term subscribers would make it easier to opt for subscribing, since there would be an eventual option of having something at the end of subscribing, without having to pay the full price of the features, if they were still sold on a purchase basis.

By at least offering a fall back ownership of some kind when cancelling a subscription would be better than forcing a perpetual subscription..... It would still be a slap in the face to the majority of users that have made their voice clear in these forums that the subscription model is not desired. If Logos truly listened and more importantly cared about its users and their opinions the perpetual license/purchase option would be offered alongside the subscription formats (whether a fall back option is included or not).... Mark claimed we would not be forced into a subscription, while technically not untrue - it is also a carefully crafted position that knows that without a purchase option every user that desires to upgrade their features WILL be FORCED into a subscription without a purchase option being offered! Offer both options, keep AI as a seperate addon package and they could make all of us happy users willing to continue supporting the product.

I'd encourage all of us that do not want subscriptions, fall back based included - to "vote" with our wallets and not fall into the trap. I will NOT purchase another resource, package or product of any form from Faithlife until the purchase option for Features is honored, I'll also not do another presentation, will not recommend Logos and have been learning the competition's product.... If needed, I will promote their product.

After 25+ years with this product, and whatever time and money all of us that only ask for something as simple as a purchase option have invested - I see that the users, their asked for opinions and our dollars mean nothing to Faithlife and their investors (not users - Venture), unless we fall in line with their subscription plan....

Many companies have learned this does NOT work out - see Microsoft offering Office 24 for purchase, subscription service memberships rising and falling dramatically depending on the season.... You'd think that they would welcome faithful users that have supported the company, but without the purchase option, it will show they only welcome those users that blindly fall in line....

We'll see if we really matter to the company any longer - but I hope they understand that the longer they put us off, the higher the risk of losing Faithful customers....

Wayne & Rebecca Birch

Yes, I agree. I know they will keep the purchased books, for the meantime so as to no ostracize the existing customer base. However I have had my suspicions for a number I years with the increasingly money hungry attitude FaithLife have take of late, and just the general corporate attitude and hunger towards profits, will try to force the subscription model. There will be a grace period, a few years, and then it will be announced “due to unforeseen circumstances, that the perpetual license model is no longer financially viable to maintain any longer. We said we were committed, and we still are, but we have to face financial realities so we are sunsetting the feature sets and perpetual licenses.”

Like any move like this, they show you with one hand what they are doing meanwhile the other hand behind the back is busy with all sorts of shenanigans. This initial foray is just the proverbial “foot in the door” and once down this path the inevitability of going to a subscription model will be shortly down the pathway of full subscription and the people who have supported them of the last 30+ years will be left in the lurch (I’ve been almost 20 years now - started with a Libronix package). I’m sorry, but I don’t have a lot of faith in men or that they will look after us.

The other pathway I can envision is probably that Logos 10 will be the last feature package, and will not be maintained for compatibility, and will due to software attrition, die a natural death. From which point I imagine that you will retain your perpetual licenses to the books, but will need a subscription to be able to view or use the books. That way they can say they kept their promise but couldn't keep working on 2 platforms, thereby achieving their goal of moving to a subscription model. It will take time but they will get their eventually with the appearances they had kept the promise to honor keep and maintain the people who own love and use the full feature set. It will either be this or some version of this.

These are features of other companies I have noticed over time who have moved in the same direction. Forgive me for being cynical, but honestly this is what I have come to expect. And honestly, I really don’t want AI anywhere near my study of the Bible. God gave man the Word, not AI. Our forefathers like Spurgeon, Edwards, Carey and others, did just fine even without Logos. If we ever want to see men like that in the future, leave AI out of it. I mean this is different folks, AI may have its place in some areas (some have argued, however for me, I'd have sooner left that cat in the bag than out of it), but honestly, what if you are a believer, preach or Bible expositor that just wants his electronic references and a power search tool such as we have and actually want to just do the hard yards? Will Logos of the future give you that option? Do they have to put a proverbial stumbling block there, a temptation? I really feel like this is Pandora’s box. Just something that just shouldn’t exist. thanks to those who agreed with this sentiment from a previous post. No doubt there will be those who want this. I don’t know, but this whole AI thing, it’s going to rob churches of Spiritual richness, the hard one truths of Gods Word from the pastor, just palmed off to AI. The nay sayers will just look at the potential for good (anything that has potential for good, always have a downside. Man's proclivity for creatively using good things for evil knows no bounds!). It’s like social media - seemed good, until the results from the next generations came and we saw it for what it was - the equivalent of a social and cultural nuclear bomb. Will we get a decade down the road and go, wait, you know what? What we did really wasn't something we should have done. It seemed like a good idea at the time. But unfortunately short sighted profit based model always win out against prudence.

Just because the rest of the world is embracing AI, doesn't mean we have to, nor should we be forced to! Maybe I am being cynical, but I just don't trust FaithLife to keep their word on any of this. I did my last Library upgrade last night, because I don't intend to spend anymore with Faithlife unless they give their full assurances that we still have a feature set that is desktop based. Not some cloud based subscription model. I could not take another think I use to be co-opted to the cloud and to AI.

David McClister

[quote]

But if we followed this advice, this would cause the company to go bankrupt and ALL of us would be left with whatever we have now until the software is incompatible with future operating systems, and then we would truly have nothing (unless we all keep an old computer with an old OS, etc.). This cannot be the solution. Upgrades are necessary as long as computer systems are changing. I may not want or use some of the features they come up with, but I certainly want to use my Logos library for the rest of my life if at all possible. And it is fair to ask people to pay for new things. I see no need to vilify the company over it. I am optimistic that the people at Faithlife will find a solution that is both viable for them and useful to us. Everything they have said so far points in this direction. It may be different from what we have now, but that does not mean it will be worse.

Peter_G

Here's a recent video update on Logos Pro, with comments about subscriptions near the end of the video.

https://www.bigmarker.com/logos/Discover-More-with-Logos-Feature-Updates-Webinar-04c889f1904d25103b7d3a11?bmid=e3ee096e69d6&bmid_type=member

You may need to be signed into the Logos.com in order to access this material.

Aaron Hamilton

Well I'm encouraged. It sounded to me at the end of the video that Mark Barnes more or less said they are planning to release feature packages for sale in the Fall. That should alleviate a lot of concern.

Randall Cue

This thread has had lots of pros and cons to what is planned by Logos. I have one simple basic question. If I don't choose to subscribe for the first few months and say 4 new features are added, do I get those 4 features or do I only get those that are added after I subscribe?

Aaron Hamilton

This thread has had lots of pros and cons to what is planned by Logos. I have one simple basic question. If I don't choose to subscribe for the first few months and say 4 new features are added, do I get those 4 features or do I only get those that are added after I subscribe?

Based on what they have described, if the features belong to the package for which you subscribed, then yes, you would get those features. Everything they have said indicates that all subscribers will be current. There will not be older subscribers who have greater access than newer subscribers for any given subscription. That being said, it does appear that they will continue to offer different tiers of features, just as they have done in the past. So someone who is subscribed to a less expensive package will not have all of the features that are available in a more expensive subscription. We'll have to wait until the Fall to see exactly how it will look, however.

NathanL

Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.

[^o)]

DAL

Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.

😂 Exactly my thoughts! 😂

GaoLu

Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.

😂 Exactly my thoughts! 😂

Thats more like punishment than reward (which isn't Mark's fault), but not for me--I don't use it anyway. I just hope it isn't a harbinger of the new Logos.

1Cor10 31

Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.

😂 Exactly my thoughts! 😂

Hi NathanL,

I have no problem if Logos wants to charge subscription for immediate access to fixes to its software. But we should be able to buy this in 2 years (given its current 2-year cycle). But allowing access only through subscriptions to bug-fixes/modest-improvements for features already purchased is what people are worried about.

This post is too long for anyone from Logos to notice. Could you start please a new post with this. I would like to hear Mark Barnes or anyone from Logos comment on this.

Thanks

DMM

I have no problem if Logos wants to charge subscription for immediate access to fixes to its software. But we should be able to buy this in 2 years (given its current 2-year cycle). But allowing access only through subscriptions to bug-fixes/modest-improvements for features already purchased is what people are worried about.

This post is too long for anyone from Logos to notice. Could you start please a new post with this. I would like to hear Mark Barnes or anyone from Logos comment on this.

Thanks

I think they said previously when someone called them out about it that eventually that would (probably) be rolled out to everyone.

For me, if that's one of the benefits they are going to lead with, it doesn't make the subscription seem all that worth it.

Aaron Hamilton

allowing access only through subscriptions to bug-fixes/modest-improvements for features already purchased is what people are worried about.

Bug fixes will be made available for free to all users. This has been promised with clarity. Modest improvements for features already purchased... well that is a different matter - partly because the question itself is vague. What, precisely, is a "modest" improvement? If the improvement is similar to a bug fix that allows the feature to work as it was intended to work, they have more or less said that that would be rolled out without requiring an additional purchase/subscription. If it expands the feature with new functionality, I wouldn't expect that to be rolled out for free, even if it was a "modest" improvement.

Scott E. Heitshusen

TLDR: How can I see what it would cost to buy all my “temporary access” resources (through “Faithlife Connect Essentials”), so I have access to all I’m currently using when the new subscription model drops?

LONGER VERSION

I have been a Logos user since version 2.0. I just recently threw out the two program floppies and one provided for license backups. I have nearly 7,500 permanent resources I own through the years and have systematically passed on my print library as I move digitally. Logos is my “bread and butter” software for ministry. When I was at seminary, Gramcord (sp?) for DOS was used and when I graduated, Windows 95 was just a year old. Knowing how I had to research before Logos, I never want to go back.

I have been a “Faithlife Connect Essentials” (formerly “Logos Now”) subscriber for some time as well, though once in awhile, I will actually also ‘purchase’ a package upgrade as well so that, if I ever need to unsubscribe, I will be at a not-too-outdated software level I can keep using.

Seeing where things are going, I suspect I will (grudgingly) subscribe, but exploring any other options I may have.

Through my subscription, I have “temporary access” to a lot of resources (290). I can see what those are through the Logos library,” but can’t do a simple search for those on the website store. To wit: I would like to see a list of what each of these “temporary” resources (or packages, as is more likely) would cost to “own” them, so I would still have access to what I’ve been using should I decide not to move to the “Logos Pro” subscription. (I know it will be a lot.) I can find no simple way to do this.

Even though I currently have a subscription, I am not excited about this move. (It doesn’t help that there is no resource to show what I will have to give up from my “Faithlife Connect Essentials” subscription if moving to the “Logos Pro” one when the change is made.

Thank you.

I should also note that I also pay for a "Faithlife Connect Essentials" subscription for my son, who has one more year at the seminary, so this isn't just an academic (!) situation for me, but for the future of those in ministry.

Darrell Tan

Over about a decade, I've spent about $500 in Logos. However I live in Asia and the exchange rate is not favorable, plus my working at a charity is not lucrative (definitely below the local median income, not to mention the US). Though $500 might seem like peanuts to some, it's a not insignificant investment for me. I do want Logos to succeed, but I'm not able to justify a subscription, based on what I need to use Logos for. I do hope that small-time customers such as I will be able to purchase features and resources incrementally as our limited budget allows.

Dave Hooton

Through my subscription, I have “temporary access” to a lot of resources (290). I can see what those are through the Logos library,” but can’t do a simple search for those on the website store. To wit: I would like to see a list of what each of these “temporary” resources (or packages, as is more likely) would cost to “own” them, so I would still have access to what I’ve been using should I decide not to move to the “Logos Pro” subscription.

There is no simple way.

If you want to buy Connect resources make a list of those you consider essential and compare those with the list of books at https://www.logos.com/early-access. Buy only the books that are not on that list, as they will likely be "lost" when your Connect subscription is terminated. You can buy the others later on if you will not subscribe to Logos Pro.

Berechiah

The logos bronze 9 now have major discounts

Will they still kbe available when this subscription service comes ?

Roy

The subscription service being talked about is mostly for features.

Legacy libraries (like you mentioned in your question) are for book type resources only, not for features. They contain only books, journals, etc.

Will they still be available? Only the folks at Logos know the answer to that one. My guess is yea, they will, but still at a sale price? Probably not.

John Chezik

I am eagerly looking forward to the addition of some AI functionality to Logos.

I am apprehensively looking forward to the movement of Logos to a subscription model.

I understand why subscription is appealing to the Logos financial folks, and some categories of users. I would personally benefit from more frequent updates during the next 2-3 years as the AI features are developed and integrated. But software by subscription for everyone, forever, is not in the long term interest of many, if not most, non-professional users. A non-subscription option needs to remain available.

Michael French

I'm not a big subscription fan, but I get the challenge of making AI available. I'm very grateful Logos is investing in this technology and might become a subscriber in the future!

That said, I detest subscription-only models for various reasons and am nervous that Logos would even consider it. I hope subscriptions remain complementary and only enhance the software (as with AI) instead of becoming the only way to access the power of Full Feature Sets.

One more thing. Why is the following part placed behind a paywall and not simply a quality-of-life update? I did not expect something like this from Logos...

Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.

Lew Worthington

I think that's a puzzle to lots of us.

Frank Sauer

I'm not a big subscription fan, but I get the challenge of making AI available. I'm very grateful Logos is investing in this technology and might become a subscriber in the future!

That said, I detest subscription-only models for various reasons and am nervous that Logos would even consider it. I hope subscriptions remain complementary and only enhance the software (as with AI) instead of becoming the only way to access the power of Full Feature Sets.

One more thing. Why is the following part placed behind a paywall and not simply a quality-of-life update? I did not expect something like this from Logos...

Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.

You would hope that something like that would be added to a regular update. There is some concern, which is why many of us are against the subscription only model- that these types of improvements will be used to bait people into subscriptions. It's clear the AI doesn't necessarily have a lot of desire for many users, so if that is what subscription is limited to and Logos is committed to subscription only, they need some sort of bait to string people into the subscription.

Mark

If Instant Dark/Light mode remains behind a paywall, that will be the writing on the wall for me. Features like that cannot be behind a paywall. I woudl expect if they are, FL will discover very quickly that they made a blunder worse than any other blunder.

Chad Katter

If Instant Dark/Light mode remains behind a paywall, that will be the writing on the wall for me. Features like that cannot be behind a paywall. I would expect if they are, FL will discover very quickly that they made a blunder worse than any other blunder.

I believe Logos has previously stated that instant Dark/Light mode will be made available to non-subscribers in the fall.

DAL

If Instant Dark/Light mode remains behind a paywall, that will be the writing on the wall for me. Features like that cannot be behind a paywall. I woudl expect if they are, FL will discover very quickly that they made a blunder worse than any other blunder.

I’ve had instant dark/light mode forever with my Mac and iPhone 😂😂😂 You adjust the display/brightness and choose light or dark mode and every app that supports it becomes dark or light automatically without having to restart anything. That’s why I never understood this being a subscription “feature” when I’ve had it for the longest.

DAL

Steve Fowler

Our main concern should be serving God. In my case, I am into Christian Education. Whether software expense is monthly or every two years is not the issue from a customer point of view. Although the product needs to be maintained over operating system and software interface changes, it is not as important to me to be able to constantly add new functionality. I already have concerns about using a network host machine to do language translation. I need the product to work locally without network access. Periodic connection to the network is OK.

Paying for software on a monthly basis has additional costs. I submit that constantly billing a customer each month and handling the additional book keeping costs is not less expensive in the long run than updating and paying periodically. Requiring different books (E.G 400 books) adds extra expense. We have already invested heavily in current functionality and the access to our current books. Ability to only read our old books is not enough. Current functionality should be maintained. I have nearly every book I might ever need. Improving current functionality is a good thing... but not at a huge extra expense amortized over many months. Although I have updated every two years since Logos 6, I do not want to be dependent for any kind of functionality based on a subscription expense model.

AI is new and needs time to adapt. The technology is in its infancy. We are here to serve God more than adopt a technology in its infancy. That feature could come in time.

David McClister

I am eagerly looking forward to the addition of some AI functionality to Logos.

There is an article in The Conversation reporting that the Google browser feature "AI Overviews" -- which is supposed to summarize written content (like Logos says it will do in their software) -- recently reported to one user that people should eat one rock per day as a source of minerals (according to a UC Berkeley study), and another that said you can add glue to pizza sauce to keep the cheese from sliding off. Another response reported that astronauts had encountered cats on the moon.

I am not looking forward to AI becoming part of Logos.

https://theconversation.com/eat-a-rock-a-day-put-glue-on-your-pizza-how-googles-ai-is-losing-touch-with-reality-230953

Yasmin Stephen

There is an article in The Conversation reporting that the Google browser feature "AI Overviews" -- which is supposed to summarize written content (like Logos says it will do in their software) -- recently reported to one user that people should eat one rock per day as a source of minerals (according to a UC Berkeley study), and another that said you can add glue to pizza sauce to keep the cheese from sliding off. Another response reported that astronauts had encountered cats on the moon.

GIGO, I guess. The AI summarize feature in Logos is working on one book at a time, not pulling data from all over the internet and spitting out a Franken-thing. Now, if my Logos book has garbage mixed in, I won't be surprised if the generated summary is smelly as well.

1Cor10 31

GIGO, I guess. The AI summarize feature in Logos is working on one book at a time, not pulling data from all over the internet and spitting out a Franken-thing. Now, if my Logos book has garbage mixed in, I won't be surprised if the generated summary is smelly as well.

My understanding of gen AI is that even if the inputs are not garbage, you can get garbage out. The reason is the following: gen AI is simply cobbling together a collage of words instead of collage of pictures.

Let me illustrate...

Let Document A say: "I could run uphill at 5 miles per hour."

Let Document B say: "I run downhill at 10 miles per hour."

Both of the above are correct statements.

If I ask "What speed can I run uphill?" it might cobble together "I could run uphill" from document A and "at 10 miles per hour" from document B to give you an answer "I could run uphill at 10 miles per hour", which would be an incorrect statement.

You can see that garbage is spewed even when it is collecting information from correct sources.

Please, people who are techies, let me know if my understanding is correct.

Nathanael King

I have tried out the new AI features. Here's my opinion:

Logos is making a mistake moving to a (primarily?) subscription model that's going to hurt them long term. People today have subscription fatigue and are much less likely to sign up if it's a subscription rather than a purchase. With a purchase, you feel you're making an investment with every purchase. With a subscription, you feel much less commitment to a product. Since Logos is also continuing to sell resources, this makes their marketing far more confusing. I imagine trying to explain to someone what they should buy and attaching a subscription to a commentary purchase makes it far less compelling.
I would rather have no AI features at all than have to pay a monthly subscription for the latest features. The AI features were not very useful, especially if you have used Logos with a (free) ChatGPT window open next to it. You can already copy, paste, and summarize. I did not find the AI search very useful (maybe it will get better?), and the sermon assistant is easily accomplished in ChatGPT apart from Logos. I can see how it would be helpful for people who have never actively used ChatGPT as a tool, but learning to use ChatGPT gives you 85% of the added benefit of Logos Pro, which decreases its value significantly.
The fact that you're including instant light/dark mode in Pro doesn't make sense. This is not an AI feature and is simply holding back a feature from users who don't subscribe. If this is indicative of Logos' future direction, then this is very disappointing. Logos has always promised that the engine is free to use for your purchased resources. How is this not part of the engine?
I own the majority of commentaries and resources included in Pro, and yet I get no discount or dynamic pricing on a subscription. How does this make sense for someone like me who has invested so much in Logos? I think you're going to frustrate your primary user base by making this move.

Personally, I will not be getting a subscription, and at this point, I will not be recommending Logos until we see how this pans out. I'm hoping that the subscription model will fizzle, and we'll go back to purchasing feature updates as before. If that happens, I'll continue to commend Logos as a good investment. Until then, I'm not so sure. That's my 2 cents.

Frank Sauer

I have tried out the new AI features. Here's my opinion:

Logos is making a mistake moving to a (primarily?) subscription model that's going to hurt them long term. People today have subscription fatigue and are much less likely to sign up if it's a subscription rather than a purchase. With a purchase, you feel you're making an investment with every purchase. With a subscription, you feel much less commitment to a product. Since Logos is also continuing to sell resources, this makes their marketing far more confusing. I imagine trying to explain to someone what they should buy and attaching a subscription to a commentary purchase makes it far less compelling.

I would rather have no AI features at all than have to pay a monthly subscription for the latest features. The AI features were not very useful, especially if you have used Logos with a (free) ChatGPT window open next to it. You can already copy, paste, and summarize. I did not find the AI search very useful (maybe it will get better?), and the sermon assistant is easily accomplished in ChatGPT apart from Logos. I can see how it would be helpful for people who have never actively used ChatGPT as a tool, but learning to use ChatGPT gives you 85% of the added benefit of Logos Pro, which decreases its value significantly.

The fact that you're including instant light/dark mode in Pro doesn't make sense. This is not an AI feature and is simply holding back a feature from users who don't subscribe. If this is indicative of Logos' future direction, then this is very disappointing. Logos has always promised that the engine is free to use for your purchased resources. How is this not part of the engine?

I own the majority of commentaries and resources included in Pro, and yet I get no discount or dynamic pricing on a subscription. How does this make sense for someone like me who has invested so much in Logos? I think you're going to frustrate your primary user base by making this move.

Personally, I will not be getting a subscription, and at this point, I will not be recommending Logos until we see how this pans out. I'm hoping that the subscription model will fizzle, and we'll go back to purchasing feature updates as before. If that happens, I'll continue to commend Logos as a good investment. Until then, I'm not so sure. That's my 2 cents.

Well said!

GaoLu

I wish Logos would fix this. Or communicate. Or something. Maybe I am dreaming. The momentum of new users bypassing Logos is concerning when I think about my Logos investment and the future.

I agree, AI integration in Logos seems little more than useless as it is. I find alternatives better in most cases. The key features we want remain unfinished. New Resources do not include what we do want and bucketloads of what we don't. It ain't looking good. I've seen this before and it never lasted long.

Christopher Randall

Seriously Faithlife, what is this: https://www.logos.com/early-access/faq?utm_campaign=promo-earlyaccess&utm_source=sfmc&utm_medium=email&utm_content=05282024_Logos_ENG_EN_Subscription-Comms-VIPs&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2flogos.com%2fearly-access%2ffaq&utm_id=211051&sfmc_id=38902612

These subscriptions will replace Preaching Suite, Faithlife Connect, and other Logos feature sets."

I understand we got an email saying:

Perpetual access. We’ve received an overwhelming response that our customers want to buy forever-access to Logos features. Our team is taking all your feedback into account, and we are excited to announce perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will be a component of our new subscription model. However, the focus will be on the subscription product. We’re still working out the details, so stay tuned. As always, the content you’ve purchased is yours forever and accessible with or without a subscription."

As a person who loves to use Logos, do not do subscription-only model that replaces feature sets. You can do both, but don't limit it to just that!

Also, this:

The three subscription tiers are designed to fit the main ways people use Logos: small group prep (Logos Premium), sermon prep (Logos Pro), and academic and original language study (Logos Max).

What? So now as someone who is academic, a pastor, and one who leads small groups, he or she has to get more than one subscription to get the full use of new feature-sets?

I think Nathanael King is right:

Logos is making a mistake moving to a (primarily?) subscription model that's going to hurt them long term. People today have subscription fatigue and are much less likely to sign up if it's a subscription rather than a purchase. With a purchase, you feel you're making an investment with every purchase. With a subscription, you feel much less commitment to a product. Since Logos is also continuing to sell resources, this makes their marketing far more confusing. I imagine trying to explain to someone what they should buy and attaching a subscription to a commentary purchase makes it far less compelling.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

The three subscription tiers are designed to fit the main ways people use Logos: small group prep (Logos Premium), sermon prep (Logos Pro), and academic and original language study (Logos Max).

What? So now as someone who is academic, a pastor, and one who leads small groups, he or she has to get more than one subscription to get the full use of new feature-sets?

The subscription tiers will build on each other, so you can subscribe to the largest one that meets your needs (and get all the "lower" tiers included).

Tes

The subscription tiers will build on each other, so you can subscribe to the largest one that meets your needs (and get all the "lower" tiers included).

Will there be a discount on a one-year subscription like Logos Connect?

Christopher Randall

Thank you Bradley I didn't see that in the email or FAQ page, but that sounds good.

I personally don't like subscriptions but if there is an "annual" or "biannual" discount option that has perpetual licensing, I guess it ends up being similar to the old way. The added benefit would be regular updates and access to features that can't be owned at the moment like AI stuff. It is a different model, but the outcome is close (at least appears to be in writing).

It would be nice to know more on the perpetual access. Is the license based on subscription time, price (accounting for discounts too), something else, or a combination? Also, I understand it is difficult to state what will be considered perpetual in the early stages, but are there classifications of features that will be considered "ownable" and others not (ex: outsourced [ex..the current AI tokens] vs insourced features)?

Again thank you.

Michael W. Sluys

Hey Mark,

I'm a retired data analyst. I purchased and maintained Logos 7 to present. Please confirm my understanding of Logos long term marketing plan.

1. If you don't have full-feature logos, get it now before all "features" are consumed by the subscription based usage plan.

2. If you do have Logos 10 full-feature, be informed, all future "feature" upgrades will only be available via a subscription based plan(s).

I'm old school - sorry, I don't appreciate Microsoft Office 365. I maintain the latest Microsoft Office Pro - so I'm not tied to an internet link, and more importantly, for security reasons there are some computer activities that are not allowed to have any external communication links.

That said, Logos serves two constituent groups. A. The professional academic who understands the software development process and cost associated with bring this product to the user. B. The non-profit / religious entity (pastors / elders / deacons / lay leaders) who earns well below the mean income and has become accustom to non-profit pricing of Microsoft (which is a lose leader / philanthropic sector of an enormous organization).

Threading the marketing challenge between these two groups and staying in business becomes an oxymoron. Neither group is large enough to grow (much less) sustain Logos, while a marketing plan that caters to one, offends the other.

I love Logos software. I spend several hours / day using it. It has become an invaluable tool, like a phone or car. I feel like I'm being backed into a corner, held hostage to the "cloud" based storage of my labor and now the fundamental core engine is becoming more and more dependent on internet continuity that is not conveniently backed up locally and dependent on Faithlife's ability to navigate the market and stay in business. Should Faithlife fail or my ability to pay the monthly subscription - what happens to a lifetime of work? How does one pass along any legacy? My warm fuzzy confidence is waning.

Steven MacDonald

Agreed. Future purchasable features is a big one for me too.

Steven MacDonald

Agreed. Future purchasable features is a big one for me too.

Steven MacDonald

Agreed. Future purchasable features is a big one for me too.

Joel J.

Is there a way to toggle the AI off so I can see the differences in results?

Joel J.

Is there a way to toggle the AI off so I can see the differences in results?

Graham Criddle

Is there a way to toggle the AI off so I can see the differences in results?

You can if using a Books Search

There isn't this option in an All search - that will use a Smart Search unless you specify traditional Logos search syntax which will cause a switch to using Precise Search.

tm19

I apologise for jumping in here at page 64 and asking a dumb/obvious question. I only just found out about these changes. The OP states:

Logos Pro includes most of the Logos 10 Full Feature Set

I understand that existing users won't lose books, but do we lose functionality? I have invested in ancient ms. tools/datasets, and would hate to lose those kinds of features in Pro.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

I understand that existing users won't lose books, but do we lose functionality? I have invested in ancient ms. tools/datasets, and would hate to lose those kinds of features in Pro.

Logos licenses (including for features) are additive: when you subscribe to Logos Pro, you'll get access to everything in Pro that you don't already have, not be downgraded to only what's in Pro.

Josh Bernard

Any plans for Logos Pro to be able to search my sermons as well, the text of the document? Would be extremely helpful finding quotes and such I've used before. Sometimes searching just the title doesn't work. Not even sure it needs to be a Logos Pro feature, but with better search it would be nice.

MJ. Smith

Any plans for Logos Pro to be able to search my sermons as well, the text of the document?

Doesn't the search meet your needs?

GaoLu

So, will I lose the option to purchase these features if I don't do so now?

I have been wondering that too.

I understand that existing users won't lose books, but do we lose functionality?

Internet based functionality could be a thing we lose.

My question is what happens if I don't subscribe and features get "upgraded" to the point that my one-year-old purchased feature hasn't really been deprecated, but doesn't work anymore because it's been upgraded. I can't buy the upgrade, because it's, you know, internet dependent now. But I can subscribe to make my purchase work again. In 2-3 years, how many of my purchased features will still work because they have been upgraded? Maybe someone will make a living inventing legacy feature crutches. Or maybe Logos will make sure legacy features still work. Not that I expect that (imagine your own antecedent for "that")...but it's worth mentioning.