CEO Bill McCarthy on Launch Perks
Hi all,
I'm back with a few more updates on subscription. Today, I'm talking through some of the perks we're thinking about for launch this fall.
As always, I welcome your thoughts and constructive feedback.
—B
Comments
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I appreciate you taking the time for an update, I wish there was more encouragement for myself as a user personally. As it sounds as though logos is firmly committed to a monthly or subscription-based option, even for what you're calling forever, access. Forever access, based on your comments I'm assuming is what we call perpetual license.
It is disappointing, that there has not been an announcement that we will have the same option to just purchase outright rather than having to subscribe for 2 years to earn features that we may or may not be interested in depending on what is considered cloud-based and AI based.
A question that does come up in relation to this, is along the lines of Mark Barnes comments in previous posts. Mark had suggested that there will be discounted annual options for subscription and quite possibly biannual options at a discount for the subscription. So my question is this, will those discounted bi-annual subscriptions or discounted annual subscriptions apply to what you're calling forever? Access to the features we have if we stop subscribing after 24 months? If so, then why not just offer the purchase of the features for the same price as the 2-month discounted subscription?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I guess we'll get more next month. But off the top of my calculating head, the breakeven subscription (for me) is going to be 10 bucks a month. That's the Full-Feature divided by the 'retain-access' of 24 months (new features, previously dynamic-priced). I don't need more free books, nor rewards, nor tiny percentage offs. I'm not very perky ... and I assume, the perks are strictly launch-only.
Now, based strictly on rumor, the content in my above breakeven (all the features) are likely to be the 'max' subscription. Or multiples of my current breakeven. I can see that being great for Bill. But not for me.
Essentially, Bill needs to deliver multiples of value, compared to the past. Not likely.
So .... other Logosians will need to step up to the plate, and fund Logos. We'll await the next message.
ADDED: Crazy me ... it just dawned on me (or maybe listen to the video again). A newbie (smart newbie) can pick up all (that's the question) features in 24 months for maybe $800 or so ($35 x 24). Now, an oldie (me) would spend the same (same subscription) and end up with considerably less (I already 'own' most). Now ignoring 'fairness', the model really turns on lots of smart newbies.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thank you, Bill, for this update and for your team's ongoing efforts to enhance the Logos software. It's commendable that you're actively seeking ways to provide value to your customers while also ensuring the long-term sustainability of the platform.
Your approach of sharing updates and welcoming constructive feedback demonstrates a commitment to transparency and customer engagement, which is greatly appreciated.
Your forward-thinking approach is crucial for keeping Logos at the forefront of Bible study software. We look forward to learning more about how these changes will benefit both new and existing users while ensuring the platform's continued growth and innovation.
Thank you again for keeping the community informed and involved in this process.
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Thank you sir. As an old/current Faithlife Connect subscriber I am still waiting to be converted over to the new system. I would love to hear more on that!
Appreciate your time.
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So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds). And even if we do subscribe for the minimum required period to keep them, after we drop the subscription we can't use any features which use the cloud (which is most of them).
As I suspected when this first dropped, the promise to let us keep our purchases would be a hollow one if they pulled the features which make use of those resources/books.
Bill McCarthy said:the perks
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds). And even if we do subscribe for the minimum required period to keep them, after we drop the subscription we can't use any features which use the cloud (which is most of them).
As I suspected when this first dropped, the promise to let us keep our purchases would be a hollow one if they pulled the features which make use of those resources/books.
Bill McCarthy said:the perks
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless.
DAL
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DAL said:
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless.
DAL
I listened to it at least five times to (hopefully) hear something like that. He didn't say it.
And again, if they aren't including cloud-based features in the Legacy Fallback License, what makes anyone think they'll stay active for non-subscribers?
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc has better ears than mine ... Logos 10. And Mark was encouraging Logos 10 Full Features ... so people could lose them in 24 months. Well, anyway.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Doc B said:DAL said:
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless.
DAL
I listened to it at least five times to (hopefully) hear something like that. He didn't say it.
And again, if they aren't including cloud-based features in the Legacy Fallback License, what makes anyone think they'll stay active for non-subscribers?
Since no one will be forced to subscribe, you can still use Logos 10 full features. Why subscribe to lose something you already own? Maybe he didn’t word it correctly. If it means what you think it means then people won’t subscribe, so it makes no sense.
DAL0 -
DAL said:Doc B said:DAL said:
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless.
DAL
I listened to it at least five times to (hopefully) hear something like that. He didn't say it.
And again, if they aren't including cloud-based features in the Legacy Fallback License, what makes anyone think they'll stay active for non-subscribers?
Since no one will be forced to subscribe, you can still use Logos 10 full features. Why subscribe to lose something you already own? Maybe he didn’t word it correctly. If it means what you think it means then people won’t subscribe, so it makes no sense.
DALYeah, he wasn't clear about it, but I took it to mean that if you own L10 now, and you subscribe going forward for 2 years and then quit, you'll be able to keep whatever new features you acquire during those 2 years from the subscription. I don't think he was referring to existing features that you already own. I would assume we all still own those in perpetuity, whether we subscribe or not.
We could ask for clarification on that in his next update.
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Doc B said:
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds).
Bill and I are saying the same thing. This is what Bill said in the video (starting at 3:00):
Bill McCarthy said:For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription.
Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for.
The fallback license will allow you to additionally keep any features you haven't previously paid for but were in the subscription (except Cloud/AI features).
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Doc B said:
And again, if they aren't including cloud-based features in the Legacy Fallback License, what makes anyone think they'll stay active for non-subscribers?
Just because we don't put a feature in the Legacy Fallback License doesn't mean for a minute that we'll take it away from existing customers.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Doc B said:
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds).
Bill and I are saying the same thing. This is what Bill said in the video (starting at 3:00):
Bill McCarthy said:For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription.
Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for.
The fallback license will allow you to additionally keep any features you haven't previously paid for but were in the subscription (except Cloud/AI features).
I knew it! Send me the link to Logos Max early access, so I can subscribe too!
DAL
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Bill McCarthy said:
For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription.
Ok, this is getting odd. If you don't own L10 (whatever that is ... any L10?), then you're not eligible for the Legacy Fallback (LFB) perk for unowned featues during the subscription? Or the LFB is only for L10 owners ... during launch. Or ...
I think DAL better check the price first.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for.
I listened to it a sixth time, and I still don't hear the boss saying that.
But I'll assume it's true for now since you say that's what he means.
That begs a question: If the cost of getting the new features is a 24-month subscription (say, $10 a month for 24 months...$240), why not make them available for the same price ($240 in this example) as a one-time fee? Then you'd have the same revenue and you wouldn't have alienated a whole busload of your formerly loyal customers by imposing a subscription model on them. [:(]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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DMB said:
If you don't own L10 (whatever that is ... any L10?), then you're not eligible for the Legacy Fallback (LFB) perk for unowned featues during the subscription? Or the LFB is only for L10 owners ... during launch. Or ...
We've not yet announced what perks will be available to those who DON'T own Logos 10. That will come soon.
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Doc B said:
If the cost of getting the new features is a 24-month subscription (say, $10 a month for 24 months...$240), why not make them available for the same price ($240 in this example) as a one-time fee? Then you'd have the same revenue and you wouldn't have alienated a whole busload of your formerly loyal customers by imposing a subscription model on them.
Because that way, you wouldn't get any of the subscription benefits at all. It's much better for you to pay for two years of the subscription up front* and then immediately cancel the autorenewal. That way, you get all the benefits of the fallback license PLUS two years' worth of additional subscription perks and benefits for no additional cost.
* I'm not 100% sure we'll be able to offer paying two years upfront because our subscription engine doesn't support that yet, but we're hoping to make that possible by launch. It will certainly be possible to pay for one year upfront.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We've not yet announced what perks will be available to those who DON'T own Logos 10
I own some modest L8 functions.
Say, I don't subscribe. I then lose all cloud functions, even those that power some of my L8 stuff. I lose cloud storage of many books......Am I right in what I am saying here, Mark?
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scooter said:
I own some modest L8 functions.
Say, I don't subscribe. I then lose all cloud functions, even those that power some of my L8 stuff. I lose cloud storage of many books......Am I right in what I am saying here, Mark?
Happily, you're not right.
Whether or not you subscribe, you will keep your L8 functionality, including L8 cloud functionality.*
If you did subscribe, and got additional cloud/AI features, you would NOT retain access to those additional cloud/AI features after your subscription lapses.
* Very occasionally, we remove features from the software when they no longer fit the purpose. We recently did that with Community Notes, Faithlife Assistant, and Handouts. But that's very much an exception, and the move to subscription doesn't change that policy.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:scooter said:
I own some modest L8 functions.
Say, I don't subscribe. I then lose all cloud functions, even those that power some of my L8 stuff. I lose cloud storage of many books......Am I right in what I am saying here, Mark?
Happily, you're not right.
Whether or not you subscribe, you will keep your L8 functionality, including L8 cloud functionality.*
If you did subscribe, and got additional cloud/AI features, you would NOT retain access to those additional cloud/AI features after your subscription lapses.
* Very occasionally, we remove features from the software when they no longer fit the purpose. We recently did that with Community Notes, Faithlife Assistant, and Handouts. But that's very much an exception, and the move to subscription doesn't change that policy.
I get this, now. Thanks for your time, Mark
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Doc B said:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for.
I listened to it a sixth time, and I still don't hear the boss saying that.
I agree. He doesn't say that. This video was about perks, not about restating a policy we've stated again and again and again. But Bill does NOT say you will LOSE features you've already paid for because that is not the policy.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
This video was about perks, not about restating a policy we've stated again and again and again.
C'mon, Mark. The video was an update on the ongoing saga, and he specifically said we'd keep features we had in L10 "after subscribing for 24 months." That's new, it's not a restatement. Don't patronize me with the 'again and again and again' stuff or what he didn't say.Even you and the boss admit all your policies are still not fleshed out, so it might be helpful to keep saying some stuff in these updates that you've already said...stuff that matters to those of us who think we've been told to grab our ankles.(I know y'all don't get it, but BOHICA is *exactly* how the imposed subscription model feels to some of us long-time customers.)Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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So, to summarize what we're saying.
- You won’t lose your existing feature sets when we move to subscription. (That wasn't stated explicitly in the video, but we've been very clear about it in several places, especially here.)
- Every subscriber will receive the following perks:
- A 5% storewide discount <edit>on as many books as we can</edit>
- An additional free book of the month (of similar quality to the existing FBOTM).
- Pro and Max subscribers will also receive:
- A 5% annual rewards coupon (so, e.g., for every $100 you spend, you'll receive $5 credit at the end of the year).
- Logos 10 owners who subscribe for 24 months will also receive:
- A Legacy Fallback License which you qualify for after 24 months. This will allow you to keep non-AI/Cloud features even if you subsequently cancel your subscription.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:scooter said:
I own some modest L8 functions.
Say, I don't subscribe. I then lose all cloud functions, even those that power some of my L8 stuff. I lose cloud storage of many books......Am I right in what I am saying here, Mark?
Happily, you're not right.
Whether or not you subscribe, you will keep your L8 functionality, including L8 cloud functionality.*
If you did subscribe, and got additional cloud/AI features, you would NOT retain access to those additional cloud/AI features after your subscription lapses.
* Very occasionally, we remove features from the software when they no longer fit the purpose. We recently did that with Community Notes, Faithlife Assistant, and Handouts. But that's very much an exception, and the move to subscription doesn't change that policy.
I miss handouts and I like the word search feature. Id love to see more of this in the future.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
So, to summarize what we're saying.
- You won’t lose your existing feature sets when we move to subscription. (That wasn't stated explicitly in the video, but we've been very clear about it in several places, especially here.)
- Every subscriber will receive the following perks:
- A 5% storewide discount
- An additional free book of the month (of similar quality to the existing FBOTM).
- Pro and Max subscribers will also receive:
- A 5% annual rewards coupon (so, e.g., for every $100 you spend, you'll receive $5 credit at the end of the year).
- Logos 10 owners who subscribe for 24 months will also receive:
- A Legacy Fallback License which you qualify for after 24 months. This will allow you to keep non-AI/Cloud features even if you subsequently cancel your subscription.
So, if you qualify for the $9.99/month version of Logos Pro and spend about $500/year on books, your subscription will cost you about $120/year. You'll save $25 on your book purchases and get an additional $23.75 rebate, which means the real cost to you is only $71.25/year, or $142.50 over two years. Less if we offer a discounted annual subscription.
Users who typically upgrade to the new feature set every two years typically pay about $200 to do so. Maybe a bit less if you take advantage of the launch sale.
So, if you typically upgrade regularly and spend a fair bit on books, you'll probably find the subscription saves you money compared to how we sell Logos today. If you upgrade regularly but don't spend much on books, it will probably work out about the same as it currently does, assuming we offer a discounted annual subscription. Even if you normally upgrade every four years or so, it will probably work out about the same, because it's much more expensive to jump from L8 to L10 than from L9 to L10.
And if you don't normally upgrade at all, then you probably won't want to subscribe either. In which case, you'll miss out on all the new features and improvements, but you'll be no worse off than you were previously.
(The math will obviously be different for people who don't qualify for the $9.99/month version. But, of course, new customers currently pay $800 for all the features, so a cost higher than $9.99/month is still good value for those customers.)
if I missed it, I apologize. How do you subscribe for 24 months? Is it a commitment or is it just something in your system that shows we have subscribed? I’ve been a connect subscriber for many years now And I’m still waiting for a message on how to convert over.
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Doc B said:
he specifically said we'd keep features we had in L10 "after subscribing for 24 months."
But he didn't say that. As I wrote earlier, what Bill said was:
For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription.
I appreciate the mention of Logos 10 ownership might have been slightly confusing, but Bill is NOT saying you have to subscribe for 24 months to keep features you had in L10. He's explicitly saying that the 24 months qualification is to retain features from your subscription. I guess for extra clarity he could have added "to retain features from your subscription that you don't already own". That last part was implied by Bill, but I'm happy to make it explicit here.
Doc B said:so it might be helpful to keep saying some stuff in these updates that you've already said...stuff that matters to those of us who think we've been told to grab our ankles I know y'all don't get it, but BOHICA is *exactly* how the imposed subscription model feels to some of us long-time customers.)
I had to look BOHICA up!
I get it, I really do. I'm a customer too, with a big investment into Logos features and resources that I don't want to lose.
And fair enough. You're right that we should keep repeating the key promises. They do matter. So, just for you [:)]:
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Your investment in Logos is safe, and you’ll always be able to access your books for free. We’re 100% committed to continuing to provide free software to ensure you’ll always be able to read and interact with your books.
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You won’t lose your existing feature sets when we move to subscription. If you’ve already invested in Logos Feature Sets, you won’t lose them when the next version of Logos launches. You’ll continue to be able to use the features you’ve paid for. And if you ever cancel a subscription, you’ll fall back to the features that you’ve previously purchased.
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We’re not going to stop selling books and libraries. We love selling books as much as you love buying them, and we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling books and curated libraries. Our subscriptions contain a limited number of books to ensure the features work correctly, but they aren’t intended to replace the high-quality curated libraries that we’re continuing to offer.
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No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future. Unlike most software companies, we make our latest software available to everyone. Even if the last feature set you bought was Logos 4 in 2009 (or even Logos 1 in 1991!), you’ll continue to receive free app updates ensuring you can use Logos with future operating systems and books. You’ll even continue to receive bug fixes for free, too. Of course, if you’re not a subscriber, the latest features and upgrades will not be enabled for you, but you’ll be using the same core software as all our other customers.
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Mattillo said:
How do you subscribe for 24 months? Is it a commitment or is it just something in your system that shows we have subscribed? I’ve been a connect subscriber for many years now And I’m still waiting for a message on how to convert over.
The Legacy Fallback License promise is specifically for the new subscriptions that will launch in the fall. I'm afraid it doesn't apply to our current subscriptions which have different perks.
I'm sorry for the delay in communicating how we'll handle migrations from Connect to these new subscriptions. We've got a LOT of different subscriptions, and we want to make sure we get each one right.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Doc B said:
If the cost of getting the new features is a 24-month subscription (say, $10 a month for 24 months...$240), why not make them available for the same price ($240 in this example) as a one-time fee? Then you'd have the same revenue and you wouldn't have alienated a whole busload of your formerly loyal customers by imposing a subscription model on them.
Because that way, you wouldn't get any of the subscription benefits at all. It's much better for you to pay for two years of the subscription up front* and then immediately cancel the autorenewal. That way, you get all the benefits of the fallback license PLUS two years' worth of additional subscription perks and benefits for no additional cost.
* I'm not 100% sure we'll be able to offer paying two years upfront because our subscription engine doesn't support that yet, but we're hoping to make that possible by launch. It will certainly be possible to pay for one year upfront.
A couple questions to this response....
What if a user doesn't want the "perks" of subscription, but just the non cloud/non AI features?
If we are able to pay for the annual/biannual plans and cancel auto renewal to "own" after 24 months - why not just offer the traditional purchase option to those that don't care about the perks of subscription....
Is the issue related to the subscription engine that you mention? Will it not allow the traditional option?
If that is the issue... Well, I will keep my thoughts for now if that it the case.... Or does the PE expect a certain percentage of sales to be subscriptions, so the workaround you mention is an attempt to reach out to those of us who have no desire for subscription while making the "reports" look good to the investors?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Mattillo said:
How do you subscribe for 24 months? Is it a commitment or is it just something in your system that shows we have subscribed? I’ve been a connect subscriber for many years now And I’m still waiting for a message on how to convert over.
The Legacy Fallback License promise is specifically for the new subscriptions that will launch in the fall. I'm afraid it doesn't apply to our current subscriptions which have different perks.
I'm sorry for the delay in communicating how we'll handle migrations from Connect to these new subscriptions. We've got a LOT of different subscriptions, and we want to make sure we get each one right.
Thank you. So if I understand you correctly:
1) Still no idea how connect subscribers will come in
2) Since I’m a current connect subscriber, I don’t get a chance at this legacy perk? Does that mean if I cancel I lose all?
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To add to that, it just feels like I’m getting punished for not being new and left in the dark. I could be misinterpreting though
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
So, to summarize what we're saying.
- You won’t lose your existing feature sets when we move to subscription. (That wasn't stated explicitly in the video, but we've been very clear about it in several places, especially here.)
- Every subscriber will receive the following perks:
- A 5% storewide discount
- An additional free book of the month (of similar quality to the existing FBOTM).
- Pro and Max subscribers will also receive:
- A 5% annual rewards coupon (so, e.g., for every $100 you spend, you'll receive $5 credit at the end of the year).
- Logos 10 owners who subscribe for 24 months will also receive:
- A Legacy Fallback License which you qualify for after 24 months. This will allow you to keep non-AI/Cloud features even if you subsequently cancel your subscription.
This all sounds great to me!
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- The fallback license is a good feature that should be useful to some and reassuring to many.
- The fear that some have had (and may still have) that they'll lose access to what they already own has illustrated some very strange exegesis techniques. Despite my misgivings about the subscription model, I have never feared this.
- The plan as presented now is a bad deal, offering very little to a user like me at a high cost. In the previous upgrade cycles, I've typically paid in the range of $250-500 to get all of the new features plus a decent library package of books I want. With this new arrangement, I'd have to pay $700 to get a perpetual license without a new permanent library; most of the new features are AI, which I'm not interested in at all and would lose anyway if I ever unsubscribed; the temporary license books I don't already own aren't attractive; the other minor perks, while not bad, are minor and not nearly enough to make up for the hike in price. (At $35 a month, I'd be better off spending that on a book of my choice rather than an additional random FBotM.)
So no, subscription is not going to be a great thing for everybody. The present plan would have to change a lot in order to begin to appeal to me; I do not anticipate that happening. In all likelihood, when this rolls out finally, Logos is likely to get $0 instead of what I normally happily spend at upgrade time.
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Nothing has been said about family subscriptions. I own L10. I purchased L10 also for 4 of my children. Another child has Logos, just not L10. So I am concerned about the cost of subscription for children from teens to college age.
Is a family subscription also being considered?
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Frank Sauer said:
What if a user doesn't want the "perks" of subscription, but just the non cloud/non AI features?
This was exactly my response when I read Mark's reply, but I didn't respond...I've already given Mark a harder time than I intended...he's only the messenger. Unfortunately, he's the only one available here at whom we can throw our sabots.
But your point is mine...I don't want early access to all the perks, I just want my books (which I'm confident I'll keep) and my feature sets to not be deprecated (of which I'm less confident). I don't disbelieve Mark...he's an upstanding guy and telling the truth as far as he knows it...I just don't know if he knows how this will go in the long run.
They have to increase revenue, so any plan they throw out that looks like it is saving customers money is hiding something...you don't increase revenue by charging less unless your volume increases exponentially while your costs remain stable. I don't see a subscription model increasing sales volume exponentially. (???)
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
So, to summarize what we're saying.
- You won’t lose your existing feature sets when we move to subscription. (That wasn't stated explicitly in the video, but we've been very clear about it in several places, especially here.)
- Every subscriber will receive the following perks:
- A 5% storewide discount
- An additional free book of the month (of similar quality to the existing FBOTM).
- Pro and Max subscribers will also receive:
- A 5% annual rewards coupon (so, e.g., for every $100 you spend, you'll receive $5 credit at the end of the year).
- Logos 10 owners who subscribe for 24 months will also receive:
- A Legacy Fallback License which you qualify for after 24 months. This will allow you to keep non-AI/Cloud features even if you subsequently cancel your subscription.
Mark, thanks for this clarification. Question: Do the months of current subscription to Logos Pro (early access) since April 2024 count in to the “24 months”?
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This is exactly what many of us were afraid of, that the ability to buy new features would be limited to a “rent to own” approach, which the legacy fallback license essentially is.
I see a big problem with this approach, especially for those of us with academic discounts and large libraries. For example, for the last two launches I have been able to purchase a silver base package plus full feature upgrade for around $150 total. Dividing this over two years would mean paying $6.25/month. I hope this is the price tier your are considering for the level that would include all features. A 10/month price, for example, would be a steep 40% increase in our costs for the legacy fallback license model compared to the historical average price of buying it outright. Especially since the license is limited to non-AI features, I fear that you are essentially asking me to pay $240 for automatic dark mode as it stands.
Not interested in the other perks mentioned, especially since Bill said the 5% discounts were on SELECT resources, not all resources. Typically this wouldn’t cover the resources we actually WANT a discount on (I.e. brand new Zondervan titles, Baker Academic, etc). Also, the 5% discount would also have to be on top of the academic discount that many of us get, otherwise this perk would be useless for those of us that have this, since a typical academic discount on a resource is 20-30%.
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The fallback license will allow you to additionally keep any features you haven't previously paid for but were in the subscription (except Cloud/AI features).
What features are those?
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I am happy with the direction that this is going.
The main thing that I will miss in what is currently being communicated is that as a current Faithlife Connect Essentials (no library) subscriber, I get to select three Faithlife Classic ebooks a month. The access to two courses a year is also useful for something I might want to dip into, but not purchase. Oddly, I sometimes find these more beneficial as perks than the advertised free book(s) of the month because it is hit and miss of what is being offered in relation to my studies. Is it possible for some of the more advanced tiers of subscriptions to continue to have these benefits?
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John said:
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The fallback license will allow you to additionally keep any features you haven't previously paid for but were in the subscription (except Cloud/AI features).
What features are those?
They haven't been released yet, nor announced. But whatever features end up coming with the subscription over those two years, those you would be able to keep if you got the fallback license.
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Jon said:
I see a big problem with this approach, especially for those of us with academic discounts and large libraries.
I think this is a fair perspective to add to this multi-dimensional set of views from different types of users. A problem I have with the 'free book of the month' is that it is often not something in scope of anything that I anticipate ever using and if it is, there is a strong possibility that I already own it. Additionally, what is the value of 5% discount if it is not on recent materials relevant to my studies? I think your point is well made as well on those who currently have access to academic discounts.
I hope when they are crunching the numbers that they look at it from this point of view and perhaps even trial some of the offerings with a focus group that fits what you are describing.
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Rosie Perera said:John said:
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The fallback license will allow you to additionally keep any features you haven't previously paid for but were in the subscription (except Cloud/AI features).
What features are those?
They haven't been released yet, nor announced. But whatever features end up coming with the subscription over those two years, those you would be able to keep if you got the fallback license.
This is another less debated issue at hand with the "new" Logos.... The traditional purchase allowed us to know exactly what we were getting.... The subscription rent to own option feels more like an expensive gumball machine - put your money in, turn the handle and see what you get when you open the small plastic container.....
We could be paying $240 for instant dark mode and a couple minor features, as Logos is clear to post you would not keep AI or Cloud Based features..... So far it seems the features are geared more towards the platform arena that you would lose access too.... But this could just be another issue with the vague information release....
What are we paying for.... Does the Rent to Own option include keeping just non-cloud non AI resources or do you keep some of the books "earned"? With each release of vague information, it appears more likely that Logos is "winging it" as they go along - rather than a well thought, thoroughly reviewed plan.... Too many "hiccups" on basic things from the website search to the information being released....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Thank you for the clarification. I am very optimistic that this will all work out well for both customers and Faithlife.
Blessings in Christ.
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Mark said:
Is a family subscription also being considered?
Logos for families is something close to Phil Gons' heart. It's something we'd like to do in the future, but we don't have firm plans yet.
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NichtnurBibellleser said:
Do the months of current subscription to Logos Pro (early access) since April 2024 count in to the “24 months”?
I asked that question myself yesterday. I don't know the answer yet.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
The access to two courses a year is also useful for something I might want to dip into, but not purchase.
We hope to be able to announce more perks before launch once we've ironed out the details.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Mark said:
Is a family subscription also being considered?
Logos for families is something close to Phil Gons' heart. It's something we'd like to do in the future, but we don't have firm plans yet.
Thanks. Just so Phil knows, its the end of the line if no family subscription. Too expensive to give subscriptions to the kids. And that would be sad since of the 4 children, 3 use the program daily.
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I feel sorry for Logos on this one, trying to navigate forward for the good of their business and customers. This thread has been disheartening and frustrating to read, and it took me a day or so to figure out why.
I think this thread shows that whatever they attempt to say, and in whatever means they attempt to say it, and how many times and in how many ways they attempt to say it, it's just not good enough - people still take issue with how they said it or some nuance of interpretation. The amount of repetition and regurgitation of issues is dizzying imho. The more communication there is, the more contentious some of the posts get.
For Logos' sake I hope they offer their programs soon (I know it will be Sept or so) - then let the programs speak for themselves and people can decide what they want to do. I for one think their heart is in the right place, and their track record shows that once things are in place if something is broken or unfair they will fix it if at all possible. I trust in that.
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Frank Sauer said:
What are we paying for.... Does the Rent to Own option include keeping just non-cloud non AI resources or do you keep some of the books "earned"? With each release of vague information, it appears more likely that Logos is "winging it" as they go along - rather than a well thought, thoroughly reviewed plan.... Too many "hiccups" on basic things from the website search to the information being released....
A more positive perspective would be that we're not "winging it", but that we are taking our time to listen carefully and make sure we get it right. The subscription doesn't launch until the fall, remember.
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Hi, Bill.
Thanks for the update. I am glad to hear about the "fallback license". Two quick questions for now.
1) If I am a Logos 10 owner and already subscribed to Logos Pro, are these months counting toward the 24 months needed for the "fallback license?
2) I understand the AI features being tied to a subscription, but will you still consider letting us "fallback" customers keep at least some of them? I was a little surprised by adding new cloud features to the exclusions. If AI and Cloud features are not included, it could certainly lower the incentive, especially if most of the new features fall under these two categories. I hope there will be new desktop features as well.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
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Hi, Bill.
Thanks for the update. I am glad to hear about the "fallback license". Two quick questions for now.
1) If I am a Logos 10 owner and already subscribed to Logos Pro, are these months counting toward the 24 months needed for the "fallback license?
2) I understand the AI features being tied to a subscription, but will you still consider letting us "fallback" customers keep at least some of them? I was a little surprised by adding new cloud features to the exclusions. If AI and Cloud features are not included, it could certainly lower the incentive, especially if most of the new features fall under these two categories. I hope there will be new desktop features as well.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
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