Hebrew definitions in the Mac version

Page 1 of 4 (74 items) 1 2 3 4 Next >
This post has 73 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jun 1 2012 8:19 AM

I don't know the number of people that have a working knowledge of Hebrew, or are interested in learning it. I have Logos 4 in both the Mac and PC.  Lion and Windows 7, respectively.

 

 

One can get a definition from a Hebrew word by double-clicking on it. The Mac version behaves differently, some words it will give the definition, on others it won't. I found out why it won't on the Mac, this behavior doesn't happen on the PC. By right-clicking on the word, and selecting "Lemma" again, one won't get the definitions for certain words. But by looking at the lemma, one can see why.

 

 

1 לְדָוִד מַשְׂכִּיל אַשְׁרֵי נְשׂוּי־פֶּשַׁע כְּסוּי חֲטָאָה׃

2 אַשְׁרֵי אָדָם לֹא יַחְשֹׁב יְהוָה לוֹ עָוֹן וְאֵין בְּרוּחוֹ רְמִיָּה׃


Above is a passage, verses 1 and 2 of Psalm 32. The word I have underlined I will use as an example. It is pronounced "remiyah". The definition according to Gesenius (I am looking at my PC screen now) is (1) A letting down. (2) deception, fraud. In the PC the lemma correctly displays as רמיה and the Mac version's lemma shows רםיה !!! The letter is the correct letter, the Mem (the Hebrew M). But the form is the ending form of Mem. Which, used in the middle of a word would not parse to the dictionary/lexicon definition which has the correct spelling. That is like writing gOd instead of God. Anyone who knows a little about the ASCII/ANSI/UNICODE's use of numbers internally for the letters will should know that the small "m" and the capital "M" are not the same internally. Capital M is 77 in ANSI character code (77 Unicode also, 0X4D ANSI hex, U+004D Unicode hex). The small m is 109 in ANSI and Unicode (0X6D ANSI hex, U+006D Unicode hex). People might wonder how Windows and Mac display other character sets, such as Chinese or Arabic. They are contained in the fonts themselves, but not all fonts, just the Unicode fonts [In Windows they have an O instead of the TT -which stands for True Type]. With both Windows and Mac one can see the Character Maps (also in Microsoft Word). That is why one can paste a passage in Hebrew or Greek into Word (Word for Mac does not work with the Hebrew keyboard, but TextEdit which comes with Mac will; however if one pastes Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or Arabic in Word, it will display correctly) and after one pastes the Hebrew of Greek, etc. passage one can change the fonts, and they will display with the fonts that have the extra characters - Times New Roman, Arial Unicode MS, Tahoma, Courier New, etc. Anyway, the final Mem (ם) is not the same character than the beginning or middle Mem (מ). That is why the definition is not given. But the issue I have is this: Mac users should have full use of all their Hebrew dictionaries. Not a stunted form. I have experimented and found that every word that does not give the Hebrew definition in the Mac had one of the Hebrew letters that have a different final ending (Greek only has one, the S - σ at the beginning or middle, ς at the end of a word). Furthermore, the Strong's definitions will display, because they are keyed to numbers. Remiyah is OT Strong's number 7423, for instance. They are still befuddled at Logos, even though I told them in December or so (2011). Something happens with the Mac version that changes the letter in the lemma to the ending!

 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 8:50 AM

Homer Russell:
Something happens with the Mac version that changes the letter in the lemma to the ending!

Welcome Big Smile

Wondering about Hebrew resource(s) and Hebrew font (e.g. personally using SBL Hebrew) ?

Wondering about Logos 4 Mac version ?

Curious about screenshot for illustration ?

Edit: if using stable Logos 4 release, suggest contacting Logos Tech Support => http://www.logos.com/about/contact

Apologies: using Logos 4.5c Beta 3 (4.53.0.2109) and Logos 4.5a SR-1 (4.51.0.2057) on Mac OS X 10.6.8 am unable to replicate since can double click on a word (or use right click, then choose lemma, followed by clicking a lexicon with lemma headword):

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 10:40 AM

I've checked Ps 32:2 in all my Hebrew Bibles, and they all display the correct mem, so I would echo the question about what Bible and what font you are using?

Also, next time, could you please insert some paragraph breaks here and there. It's incredibly tiresome to read a huge block of text like that.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 3:25 PM

Believe me that I put carriage returns, but they disappeared when I posted it. I agree a large block of text is hard to read.

But it does give me encouragement to know that that problem does not have to happen, others not having it.

 

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 3:29 PM

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 3:30 PM

I have SBL Hebrew, by the way.

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 3:32 PM

 I

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 3:34 PM

I am using the SBL Hebrew, I do have a Mac Mini, with 8GB of RAM.

 

Now, I got to figure out why my computer does this!

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 3:37 PM

The Hebrew Bible is the BHS, by the way.

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 3:45 PM

I just noticed that if I use the Anderson-Forbes Analyzed text, it will give me the correct definition. Still, as you can see by the screen shot I posted, the final Mem is in the middle of the word REMIYAH.

 

I used this example, but if a word has an Ayin or Tzadey or Nun, etc. etc. in the beginning or middle, the lemma shows the ending form, and will not display the definition. It is amazing that it is not jus putting an erroneous letter, but another form of the very letter! I still don't get it.

 

Thanks for your screenshot!

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 4:40 PM

I notice two odd things on your screenshot: 

  • though Lemma is incorrect, Selection looks correct.
  • your Lemma is different to mine in more ways than just the mem, and your Morph is different too::

I generally stay away from font issue questions, but to me that suggests you're using a different BHS than I am, and I'm beginning to suspect it's an older, outdated, one.

Click on the little circled i up to the right and post a screenshot of the Support info. It should look something like this:

As for the formatting here, I suggest always using the Preview function before posting. (You can still edit, by the way. Click More>Edit. You have about 10 hours from posting.)

(You must have some great language skills; I think I counted to 9 languages on that screenshot!)

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 3188
LogosEmployee
Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 5:06 PM

Hello, I'm just posting so I can find this thread find it easy on Monday in the case that the book is up to date, and the same version of BHS.

 

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 6:11 PM

It is true that I have had that BHS since Logos 2.1, I have the Scholar's Library, and I have noticed that the BHS WIVU and the BHS AFAT do give me the correct results. That must be part of the culprit. But I still wonder why it chooses to do that, that is, show the correct letter in an incorrect form.

 

I think the reason the first post won't let me do the paragraphs right is because I pasted from the Right To Left text. My Yahoo email also acts odd when I paste Hebrew in it.

 

Right now, I am delving more in Arabic, being a sister language to Hebrew, and reading the Peshitta with the Estrangelo font, both Syriac and Arabic look funny, but are very close to Hebrew. Egypt is Misr in Arabic, Mitsrayim in Hebrew, for instance. Knowing English and Spanish since youth, French, Italian, Portugese, German, and Latin are easy to deduce. In top of that, Spanish has Arabic influences from the Moors. Shirt is "camisa" in Spanish, "kemis" in Arabic. And since Arabic is similar to Hebrew, for instance wall is "pared" in Spanish, "pered" is separation (a wall is a separation) in Hebrew. Or, how is "como" in Spanish, "kemo" in Hebrew.

Of course, when one uses different letters, the same words can look different. Thus I intend to tackle Chinese also, a hieroglyphic language. It looks real funny written, but has a logic spoken (as in Chinese movies). I was saved in a Chinese church in Houston, the pastor would preach in English, Mandarin and Cantonese. Mandarin and Cantonese use the same script, are not the same language. So that a Cantonese speaking Chinese, and a Mandarin speaking Chinese can read the same words and understand them, but not understand each other.

Got off track a little.  But the same BHS displayed correctly in Windows. Same in Libronix for Windows, it always gave me the correct definition. I will send another screen shot, because it still amazes me that it even does what it does. (The Mac lemma thing, in my BHS WIVU, the lemma looks like your screen shot.)

 

Thank you for your input.

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 6:16 PM

Here the example has the Pe displaying the final form in the middle of a word.

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 6:19 PM

Oh, and I just realized, because I did it quickly, that the Mem at the beginning is also final Mem!

The word should spell: משפט of course.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 1 2012 8:29 PM

Homer Russell:
It is true that I have had that BHS since Logos 2.1

Curious about BHS resource support information ? (click "i" then scroll down)

Apologies: newer BHS (3.5, 4.0, 4.2 and WIVU), AFAT, and LHI have correct spelling.  Suspect older BHS resource has a typographical error.

Homer Russell:
I think the reason the first post won't let me do the paragraphs right is because I pasted from the Right To Left text.

Observation: when the forum editor starts using div tags, then text can run together.  At times, have clicked "HTML" button so could change div to p (paragraph).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 2 2012 3:59 AM

I know that the BHS that I have is old, I did click on the i and saw the info. But it still does not explain why the Mac behaved erroneously and the PC correctly, both using the identical resource.

I know that BibleWorks updates its own databases, me having the Scholar's Library, if the BHS had been updated, my BHS should have been updated also.

I know that the BHS WIVU and AFAT are different, but the humble BHS should still give the correct dictionary definitions.

Yes, I will use the WIVU and AFAT more, but the idea was that all my highlighting (I have been highliting OT citations from the NT, starting with 1Cor, 2Cor, Hebrews, Romans, and now Matthew) had been done in the BHS and I either do it over or keep it.

 

Anyway, thanks for your input. I am convinced (and have talked with tech support twice, and emailed them a number of times with screenshots, etc.) that it has nothing to do with the fonts, database, etc. But probably something to do with the way OS Lion handles Hebrew, I have 3 Hebrew keyboards - Hebrew, Hebrew PC, and Hebrew QERTY installed on the Mac.

 

Having programed a little in C++, Visual Basic, Java, C#, and Object Pascal, I would like to see the code that handles the mapping of the lemma to the dictionary databases. How it actually parses the Hebrew conjugations to the root words, and thus getting a definition.

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 2 2012 4:14 AM

For instance, Mem's unicode character is U+05DE, מ.

Final Mem's unicode character is U+05DD, ם.

 

Interestingly, the Hebrew Mem is where the letter N is on a QWERTY keyboard (US).

The Hebrew final Mem is where the O is on the keyboard. On the  keyboard they are not next to each other, but character code wise they are.

Off by just one hex number are all the final letters; right now I am looking at "Unicode an HTML for the Hebrew alphabet" in Wikipedia. They have a number of charts and one can plainly see that the Kaf is right next to final Kaf, the Tsadey is right next to the final Tsadey, etc. etc.

 

I think the answer is in the hex. All hexadecimal digits translate excellently to binary, one zero or one is being shifted. After all, all a computer really reads is machine code, which is binary. 

Posts 43
Homer Russell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 2 2012 4:28 AM

FYI, bit shifting is used by advanced programmers. Using 32 bit numbers, there are 32 combinations of zeros and ones that can be inverted or shifted. One can have a 16 bit number, and do something with the first 8 bits and then something else with the last 8 bits.

 

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 2 2012 9:33 AM

Homer Russell:
I have had that BHS since Logos 2.1

Logos 2 was a Windows only program, so if the file truly is from those days, and hasn't been updated later, you should probably be happy that it works at all, as it wasn't coded to work on Mac.

Please post the full support info that we have now asked for several times, so that we can see exactly what file it is you have. How is anyone supposed to be able to find out for you if there is an updated file or not, if you won't tell us what it is you have?

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Page 1 of 4 (74 items) 1 2 3 4 Next > | RSS